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No More Heroes CRT - AP Downgrade

Armorchompy

He/Him
VS Battles
Thread Moderator
Calculation Group
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Gonna get straight to the point, I believe NMH’s ratings are wrong. Let’s start from the top.

The (Hopefully) Uncontroversial part​


“Wall level, possibly Small Building level (Able to match Peace. Could be able to block explosion of a grenade and survive landmines as seen in fight against Holly Summers)”

Explosives of this sort basically never reach Small Building level (RPGs and Land-Mines can, but it's specifically ones meant to penetrate bunkers or tanks, so not the sort Holly would be carrying), but even if they did, this rating does not account for inverse square law, which would lower the result even further (yes, I asked some knowledgeable people, it applies even when point-blank). So, this key should just be lowered to Wall level (if no better feats are found).

(This was accepted, more or less)

The Part That Might Give Me A Headache​


Now, as for the second key (and later ones), right now they scale from Letz Shake, who can cause Earthquakes. First off, we scale him off 5.5 earthquake magnitude, as that’s what it takes to cause shaking. Well, I partially disagree, as we never see him do that in the first game, and he's upgraded in the second game, where the (supposedly) 5.5 magnitude feat happens. Even there, it's very stylized and Travis doesn't seem to even notice them before stepping in the arena, so that's a bit questionable.

Even if that wasn't the case, it shouldn't upscale to the rest of the killers in NMH1, as the justification for this is that, being higher-ranked, they would logically be stronger. Which makes sense at a glance, but I don't think it's quite right. Not only is the UAA ranking a constantly-shifting climb, made even less reliable by the fact that if two assassins haven't fought yet, there's no actual way to know who's the better fighter, but nowhere is it stated that the people higher-ranked in the UAA are stronger, just that they're better assassins. Which sounds like an arbitrary distinction I'm making, but it isn't. the Earthquake Maker is a powerful weapon but it takes half a minute to start up, and Letz Shake is a perfectly normal and very easily killable dude. This is further shown by Travis being able to fight #2 (Bad Girl) on somewhat equal grounds, but he has to sneak up to #3, Speed Buster, and can barely hold his ground and loses a ton of health when hit by her beam. Of course, you could say Travis just grew stronger between those fights, but that's a huge leap in power in a short timeframe, so I believe my thesis to be more likely.

Of course, even considering that, it would scale to Henry, who one-shot the mech, right? And if we don't count NMH1 Letz as being able to output Earthquakes similar to his NMH2 version, the NMH2 version would still have that rating, right? Well... yeah, but I think it's a bit outliery. Travis is threatened by guns and similar weaponry, long falls (not just a gameplay thing, he was hella scared of falling when finishing off NMH2's final boss, and believed he'd die before he was saved), smaller explosions, and most egregiously, getting hurt by the shockwaves of Dr. Letz Shake's machines knocks off half his HP. Of course, if the shockwaves of something almost kill him, him scaling above the full power of the attack is a bit silly, isn't it? Not only that, but 5.5 Earthquakes don't cause that sorta damage at all, shooting stones in the air, nevermind that it would take a lot less effort to cause 5.5-magnitude level damage when the energy's applied at ground level instead of below the crust. Overall this is kind of a cringe feat.

TL;DR
  • It's questionable that Letz Shake's earthquakes are 5.5, as they only affect a small area, Travis did not feel any of them before entering the arena, and cause highly stylized shaking of the ground (and some sections even stay perfectly still). If we assume the ground wasn't previously fragmented (perhaps by the multiple earthquakes Letz caused in his fight against the other assassins), the feat's way above 5.5. The rocks shoot dozens of meters in the air, and stay like that for ten seconds. If we assume it was previously fragmented (which is a bit arbitrary, I'll be the first to admit), then it's way below 5.5, and unusable.
  • If the feat is legit, it wouldn't scale to any UAA assassin in NMH1, as they're more skilled, not stronger, especially since the UAA's ranking is very variable and ever-shifting, and Letz Shake's weapon is slow and he's very fragile.
  • It must also be worth considering that NMH1 Letz is weaker than NMH2 Letz, and as such backscaling is iffy. He defeated Henry, who previously one-shot him, after all.
  • Even in NMH2, Travis and other characters can be hurt by weaponry and long falls that would be way below tier 7, not to mention merely the effects of Letz' weapon deal huge damage to Travis, therefore scaling him to the full power of the explosion is questionable. I am therefore also raising the possibility of this feat being an outlier.
(I swear I don't hate this series lol, I tried finding some missing abilities so it wouldn't look like I was just downgrading it but I found nothing. I am going to help look for replacement feats if this is accepted though.)
 
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Man, most of this verse's supporters are retired. I hope I can get any input.
 
Yeah, another commonly looked thing is that Antitank Rockets are merely 9-B outright; the 9-A ones are like Anti-Bunker Rockets. I'm fine with 9-B.
 
Thanks. What's your opinion on the second half?
 
By the way, as support for the UAA scaling being iffy, Travis calls Bad Girl one of his top three opponents. Considering Travis Strikes Again takes place after NMH2, and assuming he does mean "one of the top three most difficult fights", then that means she's stronger than almost any NMH2 boss. He could also mean she's literally in the top 3 of the UAA, which she was, but that'd be weird considering she wasn't in its most recent iteration, by virtue of being a bit too dead to partecipate.
 
9-B for the first key seems fine, the only real thing to contradict is would be the gigantic laser in the rank 3 fight that he can kind of survive.

Letz Shake is definitely strange but some of that can at least be explained by the sequel being quite a bit more cartoonish. Him defeating Henry is offscreen, which given that henry killed him by a surprise attack in the first game, means that it's entirely possible that he isn't stronger than the first game and just fought him out in the open this time.

Travis calling bad girl a top 3 fight doesn't necessarily mean that she was the third strongest. She was tough at the time, but we have no frame of reference for if he thinks that she would still be that hard a fight. Him straight up saying he got stronger at the start of 2 supports the "She was difficult at the time" idea.

Guns and other weapons hurting Travis and other characters do seriously throw a doubt on the whole tier 7 thing though, especially when it isn't just gameplay mechanics and happens in story. It's iffy, but 3 is coming out soon to make things more clear.
 
Are you suggesting we should wait for NMH 3? I'd rather deal with it now, there's a pretty good chance nothing here will be touched upon there, and I have a second CRT for this verse, though a smaller one.

Anyway, Speed Buster's feat is very impressive but I doubt it can be calced.
 
I'm neutral on the Lez Shake example, but one, doesn't Lez still physically shake the ground via stomping? If so, he should logically scale from his own feat. And I agree that "Being higher rank" isn't a good reason for scaling, but Travis overpowering him and those being Travis' level can scale accordingly.
 
I'm neutral on the Lez Shake example, but one, doesn't Lez still physically shake the ground via stomping? If so, he should logically scale from his own feat. And I agree that "Being higher rank" isn't a good reason for scaling, but Travis overpowering him and those being Travis' level can scale accordingly.
He does, but considering the amount of anti-feats and that just the shockwave from Letz' attack can take out 75% of your health in one blow makes me doubt the validity of it.

While that hasn't been accepted too, the (hopefully) upcoming revision about heat damage being unrelated to physical damage would also be a dent in the scaling, cause then Travis would be damaging this guy, whose dura/AP feat is physical, with a heat-based weapon.
 
Also, I should mention, it's not a theory that Letz becomes stronger between games. He mentions upgrades iirc, and that's reflected in him only needing a three second countdown to make earthquakes instead of a ten second one.
 
Him not needing ten seconds doesn't necessarily make him stronger, just faster. It also stands to reason that earthquakes of lower magnitude would need less time to prepare.

I remember the release date being January for 3 but I was wrong so nvm.
 
Dargoo has retired and basically said he's giving up his side of the heat feats unless someone else steps in. But it's going to be me and DontTalkDT who will carry most of the weight when settled. But actually, heat is naturally produced for every physical strike; but it's the opposite of what's often assumed. Extreme heat is typically much less deadly than pure blunt force trauma but on the contrary, taking great force from impacts would logically also be producing extreme heat as a result.
 
It does, I suppose, but I still think it indicates upgrades somewhat.

Anyway, I'd also like to bring the 5.5 magnitude into questioning. 5.5 magnitude damages weaker buildings while leaving well-made ones unharmed, Letz Shake's feat causes segments of stone to launch into the air at high speed... I don't really see the correlation.
 
Dargoo has retired and basically said he's giving up his side of the heat feats unless someone else steps in. But it's going to be me and DontTalkDT who will carry most of the weight when settled. But actually, heat is naturally produced for every physical strike; but it's the opposite of what's often assumed. Extreme heat is typically much less deadly than pure blunt force trauma but on the contrary, taking great force from impacts would logically also be producing extreme heat as a result.
So, would it affect this scaling at all?
 
Would it be against out crossover scaling to scale Killer Is Ded, NMH and Killer7 to each other, now that TSA kinda confirmed they're in the same universe? There's no real scaling between them outside of some vague stuff I'd rather not use, but NMH3 might change that.
 
I also remember a time when they were 8-A based on some super old calculation blog on Naruto Forums that doesn't exist anymore. It was some type of laser than Travis repelled with his Beam Katana. If they take place in the same universe, it might be possible if the characters encounter each other and the like. But I wouldn't use vague statements and prefer to use demonstrated feats respectively. And I don't see anything wrong with Travis damaging Lez with a Beam Katana.
 
They do encounter each other, Dan Smith is the guy speaking in the intro of TSA and Travis meets Mondo in one of the visual novel sections. You could make an argument for either scaling due to Dan intimidating Badman and Mondo killing the real version of a guy Travis fights in a Death Ball game but that's too vague for me.

I could totally see Speed Buster's beam being an impressive feat, I just have no idea how to calculate it.

So you're against the tier 7 stuff being changed, or just specifically that one argument?
 
If there are some good fight scenes, go ahead and link examples if you can. As for the Speed buster's beam; that might be it but we might also need a recalculation.

I'm neutral on the Tier 7 stuff for the time being but would like to look into Speed buster's beam.
 
Good fight scenes in TSA... I wish. But no, it's just neat cameos.



Besides, we don't have a Killer7 page... yet. Working on one. Though, it's gonna be 9-B, lol.



This is Speed Buster's beam, though it's from the PS3 remake, the version Suda51 hates (cause it's bad). Either way it doesn't matter much, it's just a wave of energy- not calculable, from my knowledge.
 
If they're cameos yeah I don't think that can justify any scaling. And the laser dispersing looks legit, but that's not quite part of my calculation expertise. But there is a calculation requests thread for stuff like that.
 
To be fair, Suda51 has gone on about how he considers most of his work as a single storyline known as "Kill the Past"... but it's probably not literal, and TSA is a celebration of all of Grasshopper's works, so I'd rather wait and see if any of this is in NMH3 to consider scaling.

I'll look for the original NMH's version of the feat, then submit that if I can.
 


Found it, but the dispersion effect isn't in this version at all... Unfortunate.
 
Made the request. Also, looking more into it, it's not just Mondo and Dan- The 25th Ward remake's protagonist has a pretty big role, and he fights Travis for a bit... but we don't have profiles for his series, so it doesn't matter. More interestingly, the whole game is apparently a ******' sequel to a killer7 spin-off novel, and Badman's a character from it. This also doesn't change the scaling, but with all this stuff, if NMH3 brings any real scaling to the table, we probably shouldn't ignore it by considering it a crossover.

Oh, and another anti-feat. Badman, who fought with Travis and should be comparable to him, got almost killed and suffered from brain damage by a few baseballs shot at him at 95 mph.



Average baseball is 0.142 kg, 95 mph is 152.888 km/h, KE is 127.154 J... 10-A. Lol. It's so low it might not even count, but I'd still consider it an anti-feat.
 
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Apologies for posting so much in a row but it's been pointed out to me that the reason earthquakes are so powerful is that their energy comes from deep below and propagates to the Earth's crust. So, a more localized earthquake made at ground level shouldn't have such a high rating anyway.

Anyway, I've mostly finished work on the second CRT, don't wanna try and rush this, just wanted to let that be known.
 
I get the complaints with using the earthquake, but Letz Shake still has a very good feat in NMH2


Here, he vaporizes multiple humans, which iirc needs an energy of a few gigajoules, so he should be building at least
Not to mention there are also other feats in the verse that havent been calc’d. I can try finding them if that’s okay
 
Vaporizing usually requires statements, actually, that looks like pulverization, unfortunately. But yeah, absolutely, go for it! Though, if I were you I wouldn't do it yet, after all the EQ feat hasn't been rejected yet, if it doesn't get rejected it might be a waste of time to find worse feats. That said, I kinda haven't heard any arguments against the EQ removal, nor anyone being past neutral.
 
Out of curiosity, what's your opinion on the EQ feat?
 
Vaporizing a human would be around 300 Megajoules per human roughly; though size of each human can also take effect into account.
 
Vaporizing a human would be around 300 Megajoules per human roughly; though size of each human can also take effect into account.
 
Can I consider that an agreement? Cause RN outside of myself everyone's neutral lol
 
Bump. Sorry for being obsessive with this but I'd like to get to a conclusion since I have another CRT planned for this verse and while none of it should be controversial, it IS a lot of stuff.
 
I agree with the OP. Maybe the third game will give us better feats.

Also, will this affect his stats in the game world?
 
I agree with the OP. Maybe the third game will give us better feats.

Also, will this affect his stats in the game world?
I was actually going to go into it in the second half of the CRT- I don't think his stats inside the DDMKii should scale to and from the real world. Even if that wasn't the case, logically yeah it would scale down with the rest of the keys, it has no tier 7 feat of its own.

And yeah I'm really hoping for some tier 6 or 5 feat in NMH3 lol, the scope is so huge and there's already multiple planet-destroying statements in the teaser in TSA's DLC, Travis just doesn't scale to any of them.
 
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