No backwards scaling for Accelerator (ToAru)

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, I originally didn't want to do this, but there's no avoiding it as the alternative makes no sense.

Accelerator currently is Planet level in the "Base (Pre-Headshot)" key due to backwards scaling from his "Base (Post-Headshot)". Basically, the assumption is made that Accelerator can't have become stronger during the 3 months that passed between those keys. (Specifically between August 31, when his Post-Headshot key starts, and December 12 when he performs the Planet level feat for the Post-Headshot key)
For reference, 3 months is a hell of a lot of time in ToAru as the story is time-wise very densely packed. It's 35 main-story volumes. So a lot has happened in that time.

Why is the backwards scaling even in place?​

Let's cover the pro arguments really quickly. There are basically just two from what I remember.
1. Accelerator received brain damage from the headshot. As a result, his calculation ability is less than what it was before. Calculations are important for the use of psychic powers in the verse and it was indeed said that Accelerator was weakened due to his being reduced. Hence there is actually nothing wrong with backwards scaling feats Accelerator accomplished shortly after the headshot to his self from before the headshot.
However, that only goes for a short time period. Sure, he got weakened by the headshot, but there is nothing saying that he can't grow more powerful afterwards to eventually become more powerful than he was before. Hence this evidence doesn't suffice for backwards scaling 3 month back.
2. The belief that Accelerators AP can't increase. I don't know how it is now, but in the past some ToAru supporters were convinced that by the nature of Accelerator's power his Ap just can't increase and that his ability growing more powerful would mean improvement just in other aspects. That's not based on anything ever said in the novel and just a subjective belief.

Counter-Evidence 1: It's inconsistent​

As I noticed when I tried to actually properly scale other characters to Accelerator recently, trying to actually go with the backwards scaling creates an inconsistent mess.
A ton of characters could directly or indirectly scale to Accelerator, which have absolutely no feats even remotely on that scale and neither scale to anyone else that would have feats on such scale.
For example, Kakine, while weaker than Accelerator, could have an extended fight with him (Accel had a minor handicap since he tried to not get civilians involved). For that he would need to be on a similar level, yet the key in which that fight happens currently is 8-B (soon to be updated to 8-A) as he otherwise scales to nothing better and has no greater showings.
Aside from that Angels such as Gabriel and Kazakiri would scale and over them saint-level fighters such as Carissa, Acqua, Knight Leader, Kanzaki, Brunhild and many more. All of which have no feats even close to that scale.
It also is inconsistent with scaling and what is suggested to be impressive feats.
To give a few examples:

Kanzaki acknowledges world-destroying techniques beyond her paygrade​

Maybe that terrifying ability was so terrifying that people couldn’t experience it personally, but this was a power that could destroy the world. For example, if the world’s axis were tilted by ten degrees, a fourth of all life on Earth would be destroyed. And if the world stopped spinning, the world would be instantly destroyed. The people standing on the world may not feel it, but actually, the world was spinning at a terrifying speed of 1666 kilometers an hour. If it suddenly stopped, it would be like making an emergency brake. The terrifying force could flip all the things on the surface of the earth.

That meant that at any time, at any place, once Misha decided it, the world would be at its end.

“Hold, hold on a minute! Can magic do such scary things?”

“For a human, of course not.”

With a sharp and icy look, Kanzaki’s voice sounded like a blade.

Kanzaki considers a technique that could end the world impossible for humans. Now, she is wrong because later on there are stronger magicians who could perform feats on that scale, but given that she states it, it's clear that Kanzaki considers power on this level impossible for herself to even approach.

Case 2: Fiamma Base scaling to Fiamma LPSAD​

Fiamma, even in base form, could easily one-hit saints. That is evident in how he considers his power an instant win button. (I would go into more detail, but I think by feats and hype everyone who knows the story would agree)

What one must know is that the Planet level scaling, over many corners, originates from Fiamma. He has the Planet level feat (well, statement) that Accelerator indirectly scales to. However, this Planet level feat is specifically for his second key and meant as a sign that he has grown much more powerful and perfected his power

“You should be honored, you mass of flesh. You managed to carry out your purpose in life.”

That would settle it.
His third arm was no longer incomplete and it no longer continued to shake awkwardly.

The destruction he could carry out was different from the destruction that could be created by the 103,000 grimoires.

He held the power to save the world.

He held the power at the core of a legend.

He was known as The One Above God.

If it was necessary, he could easily smash the no longer needed adaptor with an overwhelming explosion of light that could turn an entire planet to dust.

It would have been odd if he could not.

As such it seems extremely contradictory that Fiamma would scale in his base key to the Planet level feat, but that would be the consequence of the backwards scaling.

There are other more minor weird things about the scaling, although they are much less significant. E.g. Aleister easily soloed 2 saints, then grew more powerful and then still was at best equal to people that scale to Accelerator. Given, while such things are weird they could be explained away by the approximate nature of powerscaling.

Counter-Evidence 2: Accelerator can become more powerful through battle​

Accelerator has been speculated to be able to reach higher levels of power via fighting (or even just by doing his regular curriculum).

The evidence of that is related to the Level 6 Shift project, a project for the purpose of powering Accelerator up from Level 5 up to Level 6.

Here's an excerpt from the scientific report of the project:

“Accelerator is in reality Academy City’s strongest Level 5. According to Tree Diagram’s calculations, he would reach Level 6 after 250 years of undergoing the regular Curriculum.”

Kamijou read the next line in shock.

As reference data, it stated that a few ways of having a person remain active for 250 years were given in a different report.

“We searched for a method that does not require using those 250 year methods. As a result, Tree Diagram led us to a different method than the usual Curriculum. It is based on the fact that use of powers in actual battle quickens the growth process. There have been many reports of those with Telekinesis or Pyrokinesis gaining increased accuracy, so we are going to take advantage of this. By preparing special battlefields and having the battles proceed according to specific scenarios, we can control the direction of the growth gained in the battles.”

Kamijou’s hand froze.

Battle. He felt like that word clicked together with the corpse of the Sister lying in that back alley.

“According to the calculations carried out by Tree Diagram’s simulator, it was determined that preparing 128 types of battlefields and having him kill Railgun 128 times would allow Accelerator to shift to Level 6.”

Kamijou recognized the word Railgun.

“–You should be more proud of the fact that you defeated me, Misaka Mikoto of the
Railgun.”

Kamijou figured it must be referring to her, but he felt like the way it referred to her was not quite appropriate for someone who was supposedly cooperating with their experiment.

Kill.

Kamijou’s hands started trembling. His breathing grew erratic and he leaned up against the wall because he felt like the floor was shaking.

“However, we cannot of course prepare 128 Railguns as she is also a Level 5. That is when our attention turned to the Sisters project meant to mass produce Level 5s that we had been carrying out at the same time.”

His heart was beating oddly. He could tell that his body temperature had left his fingertips. The mewing of the black cat shook his brain like a church bell.

“Of course, there is a difference in specs between the original Railgun and the mass produced Sisters. The power of the mass produced model is largely estimated to be around Level 3.”

Kamijou’s heart told him there was something definitively wrong about what was written there.

“According to Tree Diagram’s recalculation based on those criteria, it was determined that preparing 20,000 battlefields and 20,000 Sisters would produce the same result as described above.”

However, they were going ahead and doing things that were wrong based on that wrongness.

“The 20,000 types of battlefields and battle scenarios are explained in a different report.”

It clearly says that battle, which Accelerator did plenty of, can increase an Esper's power. It, in particular, predicts that by battling those particular opponents Accelerator could reach Level 6, which is above even his current level.

Now, proponents of backwards scaling have argued against this in the past. The counter-argument is that Aleister, the board chairman of the whole city, actually never planned for that project to succeed. It was all just a disguise to get the research organizations to prepare thousands of clones, as he needed those for his own plan. So it is argued that Aleister might have faked the simulation results to trick the researchers into the project.
Now, it is true that Aleister never planned for the project to succeed, but there is no indication in the novel that he ever interfered with the research results. And even if he messed with the simulations, the scientific report mentions "there have been many reports of those with Telekinesis or Pyrokinesis gaining increased accuracy", which sounds like that much is general knowledge. I don't think Aleister would have faked even that.
Heck, even if we assume that Aleister faked all of that somehow, there is still the fact that this lie was so convincing that it tricked many research institutions with many researchers specialized in this field into spending tons of resources into this. Even Accelerator himself, an Extraordinary Genius, believed that the premise of the project was plausible.
Hence the chances of the entire premise of battles possibly making Espers stronger to be just random nonsense is incredibly slim. If it were too far from the truth, all those very intelligent people would have noticed.

So yeah, Accelerator almost certainly can grow more powerful through battle and battle he did a lot. Hence backwards scaling seems unjustified.

Counter-Evidence 3: Accelerator can grow more powerful via character development​

In this official article written by the editor and supervised by the author, the details of what makes an Esper powerful are explored in some detail.
I quote a passage:

This is related to the Personal Reality that is the fundamental law behind the manifestation of esper powers. Espers create the phenomena they wish for by focusing on making the impossible possible with their own power and by understanding, calculating, and naturally expressing the phenomena as “reality”. How well they can grasp these absurd phenomena in their Personal Reality is what determines an esper's evaluation. And that is what creates the barrier between Level 3 and Level 4.

Accelerator and Misaka Mikoto gained such high level powers because they both have strong minds and firm ideologies and principles. You could say their powers manifested in them because they knew they should.

This article mentions multiple things that can influence esper power level.
Calculations are one of those factors. However, it also makes clear that there are more.
Understanding and how naturally they can express their powers are factors. So is how well they can grasp the phenomena. For Accelerator in particular his general strength of mind and his ideologies and principles are also mentioned as being important to his power's strength.

Accelerator is one of the characters that has the most character development in the series and most of that happens after the headshot and before he performs the planet-level feat.
It's a bit hard to post quotes for that, but Accelerator initially basically just went with what the adults said. Then he decided to become a villian, which is also essentially the exact moment he unlocked his first super-form: The Black Wings. A while later he then abandoned his villain ideology and developed more into a hero. That happened to be the exact time he unlocked his second superform: The White Wings.

There was also a lot of growing up in there, but what is clear is that Accelerators ideologies changed a lot during this time, which by what is said in the quote above could very well have influenced the strength of his psychic power. Furthermore, having gained much more experience fighting and using his power in many new creative ways in that time, it's easy to imagine that he can grasp the phenomena caused by his power better now, has gained a higher understanding of it and expresses it more naturally.
Essentially, all factors besides calculations can be argued to have changed/increased in the 3 month between the pre-headshot key and the post-hdeadshot key.

Also, isn't the fact that Accelerator unlocked 2 (temporary) super-forms during that time already a lot of evidence for his ability having grown more advanced?

Conclusion and proposal​

As we have seen, not backwards scaling Accelerator avoids contradictions and is more in line with his portrayal and that of characters scaling to him.
There is next to no real evidence that justifies scaling his later self to his earlier one.
On the other hand we have plenty of ground to believe that he could have grown more powerful during this timespan.

As such I propose to undo the backwards scaling of Accelerators profile and downgrade him to his prior AP rating for his pre-Headshot key. (7-B with a High 6-A special technique that he can't just use in any fight)

 

[Kanogami]

I read through this and agree with it.

But I'd like to ask if this would affect any other characters beside Accel?

 

[DontTalkDT]

But I'd like to ask if this would affect any other characters beside Accel?

Since we never updated people that scale to Accel after he was upgraded, this would currently affect no other profiles.

 

[Aseka]

Agree to this

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Was waiting for this! I agree with this!

 

[DontTalkDT]

bump

 

[Damage3245]

The OP looks reasonable to me.

 

[RaiserAIM]

Agree with this, although it is weird how it was not discussed for so long.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Agree with this, although it is weird how it was not discussed for so long.

There was a lot of opposition to removing it in the past. So I kinda thought this would become like a 100+ replies thread. Guess I was wrong about that <.<

 

[XDragnoir]

As such I propose to undo the backwards scaling of Accelerators profile and downgrade him to his prior AP rating for his pre-Headshot key. (7-B with a High 6-A special technique that he can't just use in any fight)

What about his feats against Gabriel and Kazakiri then? These would upgrade him to H6C by OT21, if we are revising one key here then let's revise them all, like, his current keys don't work well with what you're trying to change so i suggest this:

Pre Headshot (7B, H6A via Earth Rotation) - Post Headshot (7B, higher with Black Wing) - Post Aiwass Fight (H6C, higher with Black or White Wings) - NT22 (5B, 4B via Platinum Wings). (I didn't add the H6A but it should be in all keys)

This way there is no backward scaling while also indicating more precisely what each key covers and his profile gets a indexing closer to what Luffy has with his Gears, Ichigo with his Bankai, etc. For real, giving keys to "rage forms" is strange (we don't do that for Kid Naruto for example).

 

[Kanogami]

Pre Headshot (7B, H6A via Earth Rotation) - Post Headshot (7B, higher with Black Wing) - Post Aiwass Fight (H6C, higher with Black or White Wings) - NT22 (5B, 4B via Platinum Wings). (I didn't add the H6A but it should be in all keys)

Isn't this thread just for downgrading his Pre-Headshot key?

 

[XDragnoir]

Isn't this thread just for downgrading his Pre-Headshot key?

No, it is for removing backward scaling, what affects all of his current keys, so all of them need a new tier.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What about his feats against Gabriel and Kazakiri then? These would upgrade him to H6C by OT21, if we are revising one key here then let's revise them all, like, his current keys don't work well with what you're trying to change so i suggest this:

Pre Headshot (7B, H6A via Earth Rotation) - Post Headshot (7B, higher with Black Wing) - Post Aiwass Fight (H6C, higher with Black or White Wings) - NT22 (5B, 4B via Platinum Wings). (I didn't add the H6A but it should be in all keys)

This way there is no backward scaling while also indicating more precisely what each key covers and his profile gets a indexing closer to what Luffy has with his Gears, Ichigo with his Bankai, etc. For real, giving keys to "rage forms" is strange (we don't do that for Kid Naruto for example).

Platinum Wings should stay separate, as it's a form he can willingly enter and exit.
The rest could be chronologically split like that, I guess.

 

[XDragnoir]

Platinum Wings should stay separate, as it's a form he can willingly enter and exit.

That's the exact reason that makes them be in the same key tho, just look at the examples i gave: Luffy can activate any gear from 2 to 4 at will (we don't know about 5 yet), Ichigo can activate his Bankai and later Hollow Merge at will too.

 

[DontTalkDT]

And Takeru Kusanagi can enter his forms willingly and has them as separate keys.
Both things are done, depending on what works better for the profile and character. Luffy often switches back and forth between modes in battle. Same with Ichigo. Not to mention that both have so many keys that it would be hard to keep track if you separated them.
Same doesn't apply to Plantinum Wings. If Accelerator uses them he doesn't really switch out of the mode mid-fight. He has no reason to. And we have enough space for the wings. Additionally, they are so much more powerful with separate abilities that it makes sense to have them in their own key.

Key: For characters who have transformation stages/power-ups or who become stronger through certain points of the story, insert those transformations/power-ups/timelines here in bold.

The standard format generally supports transformation stages to be listed as separate keys.

 

[XDragnoir]

Luffy often switches back and forth between modes in battle.

That's true for G2 and 3 but G4 only became like that a long time after its introduction, as for Ichigo i don't remember him changing from Shikai to Bankai and back that often outside of losing energy, it's normally base > Bankai > Hollow Mask (which he can also control later).

Additionally, they are so much more powerful with separate abilities that it makes sense to have them in their own key.

Ehhhh, agree to disagree about this? Since we started using tabs i don't see how this changes anything with regards to keys as the PW-Only abilities should be under a PW Tab regardless if it's another key or not.

 

[DontTalkDT]

If you separate it in its own tab but leave it in the same key that just makes things needlessly convoluted.

As said, making it its own key is allowed and usual practice. IMO it makes much more sense to separate it. Way easier and tidier.

 

[XDragnoir]

No it doesn't? That's normal and doesn't make it more convoluted at all, for real why do you think adding more keys would be optimal here?

Its easy, Accel will have 4 keys and four tabs, the last tab will have a sub tab for the Platinum Wings, Vampire Hunter D has a profile like that, Naruto (War Arc) does that with the TSB, etc. Or IDK, do it like Asta's profile which just literally has the name of his sword/transformation bolded before listing what powers it gives.

 

[Zensum]

I have some issues with OP, will respond during the week.
Personally I think the way we scale Accel to other characters makes no sense not Accel's ability backscaling itself.

 

[Accelerate420]

Alright here we go I guess, did this before let's go a second round DT?

I'm not acknowledging the other character scalings in this debunk since that's not what I'm here to debate.

Counter-Evidence 1: It's inconsistent​

As I noticed when I tried to actually properly scale other characters to Accelerator recently, trying to actually go with the backwards scaling creates an inconsistent mess.
A ton of characters could directly or indirectly scale to Accelerator, which have absolutely no feats even remotely on that scale and neither scale to anyone else that would have feats on such scale.
For example, Kakine, while weaker than Accelerator, could have an extended fight with him (Accel had a minor handicap since he tried to not get civilians involved). For that he would need to be on a similar level, yet the key in which that fight happens currently is 8-B (soon to be updated to 8-A) as he otherwise scales to nothing better and has no greater showings.
Aside from that Angels such as Gabriel and Kazakiri would scale and over them saint-level fighters such as Carissa, Acqua, Knight Leader, Kanzaki, Brunhild and many more. All of which have no feats even close to that scale.
It also is inconsistent with scaling and what is suggested to be impressive feats.
To give a few examples:

There's not really any inconsistencies here and I'll take away from everything you've listed here.

For example, Kakine, while weaker than Accelerator, could have an extended fight with him (Accel had a minor handicap since he tried to not get civilians involved). For that he would need to be on a similar level, yet the key in which that fight happens currently is 8-B (soon to be updated to 8-A) as he otherwise scales to nothing better and has no greater showings.

That's not really the case. Kakine's Dark Matter has special properties that lets him bulk its durability to enough levels to withstand Accelerator's blows, in which you himself stated he was holding back not to harm civilians. In this situation Accelerator is obviously not going to be attacking Kakine with City level or hell, Planet level blows because the force would blow away everyone there and he was fighting defensively on purpose to ensure nobody got hurt. This isn't an inconsistency, this is just Accelerator playing the battle carefully and managing his outputs. Which is how his ability works when using manual manipulation.

Aside from that Angels such as Gabriel and Kazakiri would scale and over them saint-level fighters such as Carissa, Acqua, Knight Leader, Kanzaki, Brunhild and many more. All of which have no feats even close to that scale.

Why? They aren't related to Accelerator or Kakine at all. Accelerator barely trades blows with Gabriel, he's forced to fight defensively because her magic bypasses his field. He uses Kazakiri's energy to deal one blow to Gabriel and that was the extent he was shown to do. If you're talking about Gabriel's implosion, again, that's him dealing with energies he hasn't properly accepted into his field yet so of course he'd struggle with it. ACcelerator's ability works by using the energies that exist, he can't just make them up out of nowhere so he's not gonna just tank Gabriel's explosion.

Like the only way you can argue this is if you ask ; why didn't accel just throw a planet level punch at Gabriel?

If you use deduction it'd be obvious that he was playing that fight very cautiously to begin with. He has a habit of using only the exact amount of force needed to defeat his enemies as quoted in the novel. It's a positive and a character flaw of his since it prolongs fights due to his aesthetics.

​

Counter-Evidence 2: Accelerator can become more powerful through battle​

Accelerator has been speculated to be able to reach higher levels of power via fighting (or even just by doing his regular curriculum).

The evidence of that is related to the Level 6 Shift project, a project for the purpose of powering Accelerator up from Level 5 up to Level 6.

Here's an excerpt from the scientific report of the project:

It clearly says that battle, which Accelerator did plenty of, can increase an Esper's power. It, in particular, predicts that by battling those particular opponents Accelerator could reach Level 6, which is above even his current level.

You're using the same experiment that was conducted with an ulterior motive from the get go, the true intention was to give a basis for the clones to be created. If Tree Diagram was actually right then Aleister would have a new piece to use, but that was just a back-up plan he had in mind. He never needed Level 6 to begin with mind you, he states that he wants something beyond Level 6 to begin with.

Now, proponents of backwards scaling have argued against this in the past. The counter-argument is that Aleister, the board chairman of the whole city, actually never planned for that project to succeed. It was all just a disguise to get the research organizations to prepare thousands of clones, as he needed those for his own plan. So it is argued that Aleister might have faked the simulation results to trick the researchers into the project.
Now, it is true that Aleister never planned for the project to succeed, but there is no indication in the novel that he ever interfered with the research results. And even if he messed with the simulations, the scientific report mentions "there have been many reports of those with Telekinesis or Pyrokinesis gaining increased accuracy", which sounds like that much is general knowledge. I don't think Aleister would have faked even that.

Hey, that is a good point, but that doesn't really have to do anything as simple as 'getting stronger through combat' but efficiency. If I take an archery course and practice on the field every day, my accuracy will increase because I grow more efficient with my technique and not because my power level rose or I got stronger. It's not a decisive point when there's plenty of other answers for that.

Heck, even if we assume that Aleister faked all of that somehow, there is still the fact that this lie was so convincing that it tricked many research institutions with many researchers specialized in this field into spending tons of resources into this. Even Accelerator himself, an Extraordinary Genius, believed that the premise of the project was plausible.

Accelerator might be an extraordinary genius but he didn't even know he could manually control his vectors until he thought of it on the fly in OT5 to save last order. He's not a good benchmark for 'believing in the premise' when it comes to esper abilities. He knows them, but he's not a Kihara on that level. And to begin with, he was preyed upon by researchers using his mental insecurities to get him into the project. Your answer is likely again found in the same things that occur in OT3. Accelerator is faced by Touma who proves himself to be a bigger adversary than the clones up until that point and it causes Accelerator to try doing new things with his ability, thus attempting to become more efficient with it. The end result is likely the same. To begin with we know Level's themselves are just sorta fake. They're categories decided based on degrees of power observed AND by their usefulness to Aleister and Academy City. The entire foundation of 'Level 6' is a faux premise to begin with, Accelerator could've likely reached Level 6 by simply min-maxing his ability and not by making it stronger, but by figuring out how far he could take its applications.

Hence the chances of the entire premise of battles possibly making Espers stronger to be just random nonsense is incredibly slim. If it were too far from the truth, all those very intelligent people would have noticed.

So yeah, Accelerator almost certainly can grow more powerful through battle and battle he did a lot. Hence backwards scaling seems unjustified.

Counter-Evidence 3: Accelerator can grow more powerful via character development​

In this official article written by the editor and supervised by the author, the details of what makes an Esper powerful are explored in some detail.
I quote a passage:

This article mentions multiple things that can influence esper power level.
Calculations are one of those factors. However, it also makes clear that there are more.
Understanding and how naturally they can express their powers are factors. So is how well they can grasp the phenomena. For Accelerator in particular his general strength of mind and his ideologies and principles are also mentioned as being important to his power's strength.

Yeah this is true. Personal Realities are not just linked to one's calculative ability but also their mentality. Awaki for example wasn't able to become eligible for a Level 5 rating because her mental trauma held her back from properly developing her ability. However, in this same quote we have to keep in mind that throughout OT and NT we're given evidence that Accelerator is not even a fraction close to what he previously was in his calculations. If we're going to use this as a factor, we have to admit that he is INDEED weaker in that case. This is objective, no amount of inconsistencies or quotes can refute this that he is a shell of his former self calculation wise.

And let's not go there with his ideologies. Throughout OT his ideology is super flimsy and is broken extremely easily, he's not the most stable person. Hell even in NT he's shaken easily by Kakine. We only really see him solidify his foundations at the end of NT but whatever powerups he gets from that isn't from growing stronger, but from the product of using external resources like Qliphah and Will's Tree, not by his own strength.

Accelerator is one of the characters that has the most character development in the series and most of that happens after the headshot and before he performs the planet-level feat.
It's a bit hard to post quotes for that, but Accelerator initially basically just went with what the adults said. Then he decided to become a villian, which is also essentially the exact moment he unlocked his first super-form: The Black Wings. A while later he then abandoned his villain ideology and developed more into a hero. That happened to be the exact time he unlocked his second superform: The White Wings.

Don't use his Black Wings in junction with his ideology. They're linked but they didn't appear because of it as stated by Kihara Amata himself, something else was inputted into his personal reality which Level 5's are capable of doing. It's not a good place to argue from for this when we know there's other reasons behind their manifestations. They're just 'representations' but they don't represent the core of him getting stronger.

There was also a lot of growing up in there, but what is clear is that Accelerators ideologies changed a lot during this time, which by what is said in the quote above could very well have influenced the strength of his psychic power. Furthermore, having gained much more experience fighting and using his power in many new creative ways in that time, it's easy to imagine that he can grasp the phenomena caused by his power better now, has gained a higher understanding of it and expresses it more naturally.
Essentially, all factors besides calculations can be argued to have changed/increased in the 3 month between the pre-headshot key and the post-hdeadshot key.

Also, isn't the fact that Accelerator unlocked 2 (temporary) super-forms during that time already a lot of evidence for his ability having grown more advanced?

Nah, because we know it wasn't in this idea that he grew 'stronger' but he added values from other things around him to gain these factors. It's a big difference. In the first place this logic you're throwing around about how 'because he's stronger he can imagine and grasp new phenomena' makes no sense. If I bulk up my muscles, would I suddenly be able to solve complex mathematical equations? There's no cohesion or connection to these things you're saying here. His ability is based around his calculative ability, not some abstract 'will power of strength'. To me it sounds like you're reaching for a connection with what little evidence you have but it's not really supporting your point very well, especially when you post a quote about how the ability is tied to calculations in the first place. Yes, mental fortitude is a factor, but that's in regards to stabilization of the abilities.

We know the Parameter List exists for example. There are many espers who have a clear-cut cap in their development. They will NOT get higher no matter how much 'will power' or 'the strength of their ideologies' increase. As an example, many of the Tokiwadai girls are pretty flimsy and have little to no core ideologies. They're just rich girls who know little about the world, yet you have level 4's and 3's roaming around there. Hell, Hamazura himself has one of the strongest stances in the series but his level hasn't budged an inch. If we're going to assume that Willpower/Ideology = power ups, then we have to look at the logic behind Level caps to begin with. And...what is the only way we've seen that 'level cap' be broken?

By adding more calculations! Because calculations is a more important factor than either of those mentioned above, in which, Accelerator is severely lacking in his post-headshot keys, thus it should logically make him weaker. Except he isn't. He's stronger but that's only because he's learning new ways to apply his ability.

I hope whoever reads this can come to a conclusion by themselves.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That's not really the case. Kakine's Dark Matter has special properties that lets him bulk its durability to enough levels to withstand Accelerator's blows, in which you himself stated he was holding back not to harm civilians. In this situation Accelerator is obviously not going to be attacking Kakine with City level or hell, Planet level blows because the force would blow away everyone there and he was fighting defensively on purpose to ensure nobody got hurt. This isn't an inconsistency, this is just Accelerator playing the battle carefully and managing his outputs. Which is how his ability works when using manual manipulation.

You mean like the Planet level kick against Coronzon which Accel supposedly backwards scales from? No wait, that kick did in fact not hurt anyone around him.

If Accel were that much stronger he would have given Kakine an upwards hook that disintegrates him and sends him flying into space. The presence of bystanders alone doesn't restrict Accel to a quadrillionth of his power.

Why? They aren't related to Accelerator or Kakine at all. Accelerator barely trades blows with Gabriel, he's forced to fight defensively because her magic bypasses his field. He uses Kazakiri's energy to deal one blow to Gabriel and that was the extent he was shown to do. If you're talking about Gabriel's implosion, again, that's him dealing with energies he hasn't properly accepted into his field yet so of course he'd struggle with it. ACcelerator's ability works by using the energies that exist, he can't just make them up out of nowhere so he's not gonna just tank Gabriel's explosion.

Like the only way you can argue this is if you ask ; why didn't accel just throw a planet level punch at Gabriel?

If you use deduction it'd be obvious that he was playing that fight very cautiously to begin with. He has a habit of using only the exact amount of force needed to defeat his enemies as quoted in the novel. It's a positive and a character flaw of his since it prolongs fights due to his aesthetics.

Well, to quote from the last scaling thread

Well, i went and re read OT21:

"Gathering the vectors, Accelerator launched a merciless strike straight at the chest of the glasses-wearing angel.
The sound vanished.
The seemingly weightless flying angel was knocked back 300 meters. Like a crashing airplane, she tumbled towards the ground in an almost comical fashion. The reason Accelerator attacked her first was very simple. His powers worked on this angel, not so much on the other angel. Logically he should try to take out the more difficult opponent first. For this, he would have to incapacitate the easier opponent first to fully concentrate on the harder one."

And

"BOOM!!!
Accelerator's attack hit Misha Kreutzev dead on.
Because of this interruption, the spell formation of Sweep collapsed.
Accelerator and the angel of science charged towards Misha Kreutzev.
To destroy it.
To prevent the battlefield from turning into a wasteland.
And then..."

And

"At that time.
Acqua of the Back had taken away half of Misha's power.
Kamijou Touma had broken the pillars anchoring her existence to this plane.
And now, Misha Kreutzev was on the receiving end of the ferocious attacks of Academy City's strongest esper and the angel of science...."

Both Kazakiri and Gabriel took attacks from Accelerator, Gabriel took them while heavily nerfed (which resulted on it collapsing, but the collapse clearly isn't because of Accelerator alone).

So yeah, both Angels took attacks from Accel and he was trying to destroy Gabriel. If Accel were Planet level and they not, then Gabriel would have been destroyed with each hit. You can't just assume he randomly held back for absolutely no reason.

You're using the same experiment that was conducted with an ulterior motive from the get go, the true intention was to give a basis for the clones to be created. If Tree Diagram was actually right then Aleister would have a new piece to use, but that was just a back-up plan he had in mind. He never needed Level 6 to begin with mind you, he states that he wants something beyond Level 6 to begin with.

Already debunked this to be relevant in the OP.

Hey, that is a good point, but that doesn't really have to do anything as simple as 'getting stronger through combat' but efficiency. If I take an archery course and practice on the field every day, my accuracy will increase because I grow more efficient with my technique and not because my power level rose or I got stronger. It's not a decisive point when there's plenty of other answers for that.

Except that the researchers did interpret that as evidence for abilities growing more powerful that way and the researchers interpretation holds more weight than yours.

Accelerator might be an extraordinary genius but he didn't even know he could manually control his vectors until he thought of it on the fly in OT5 to save last order. He's not a good benchmark for 'believing in the premise' when it comes to esper abilities. He knows them, but he's not a Kihara on that level. And to begin with, he was preyed upon by researchers using his mental insecurities to get him into the project. Your answer is likely again found in the same things that occur in OT3. Accelerator is faced by Touma who proves himself to be a bigger adversary than the clones up until that point and it causes Accelerator to try doing new things with his ability, thus attempting to become more efficient with it. The end result is likely the same. To begin with we know Level's themselves are just sorta fake. They're categories decided based on degrees of power observed AND by their usefulness to Aleister and Academy City. The entire foundation of 'Level 6' is a faux premise to begin with, Accelerator could've likely reached Level 6 by simply min-maxing his ability and not by making it stronger, but by figuring out how far he could take its applications.

That's extremely assumptive. Even normal students learn the ideas of Esper development in AC so Accelerator definitely knew.

And Level 6 is hardly "Accelerator but more clever". We have seen in Misaka's Level 6 Shift that Level 6 is a whole different dimension of power.

Also, burden of proof is on you. It doesn't suffice that anything 'maybe' isn't a power increase. You have to proof that it can't be if you want to argue backwards scaling.

Yeah this is true. Personal Realities are not just linked to one's calculative ability but also their mentality. Awaki for example wasn't able to become eligible for a Level 5 rating because her mental trauma held her back from properly developing her ability. However, in this same quote we have to keep in mind that throughout OT and NT we're given evidence that Accelerator is not even a fraction close to what he previously was in his calculations. If we're going to use this as a factor, we have to admit that he is INDEED weaker in that case. This is objective, no amount of inconsistencies or quotes can refute this that he is a shell of his former self calculation wise.

It just isn't relevant, because he can have grown in other ways. The only way that argument would suffice for backwards scaling is if you can eliminate every other possible way Accelerator could have grown above his original capacity.

And let's not go there with his ideologies. Throughout OT his ideology is super flimsy and is broken extremely easily, he's not the most stable person. Hell even in NT he's shaken easily by Kakine. We only really see him solidify his foundations at the end of NT but whatever powerups he gets from that isn't from growing stronger, but from the product of using external resources like Qliphah and Will's Tree, not by his own strength.

His ideologies are undisputably changing and Accelerator is growing. That Accelerator is faced with difficult situations and overcomes them is part of what makes this growth.

That Accelerator grew up a lot from when he was a kid following whatever the researchers say, to when he becomes the board chairmen and takes care of the city is very clear.

Don't use his Black Wings in junction with his ideology. They're linked but they didn't appear because of it as stated by Kihara Amata himself, something else was inputted into his personal reality which Level 5's are capable of doing. It's not a good place to argue from for this when we know there's other reasons behind their manifestations. They're just 'representations' but they don't represent the core of him getting stronger.

I notice how you didn't bring up the white wings. Perhaps because for them it really is so incredibly obvious that they appeared to a change in mindset that you can't even question it?

Nah, because we know it wasn't in this idea that he grew 'stronger' but he added values from other things around him to gain these factors.

Adding new values to his personal reality is one way an esper could grow stronger. Literally what they tried in the Dark May project. And don't say that as if the novel said anywhere that he didn't grow stronger.

It's a big difference. In the first place this logic you're throwing around about how 'because he's stronger he can imagine and grasp new phenomena' makes no sense. If I bulk up my muscles, would I suddenly be able to solve complex mathematical equations? There's no cohesion or connection to these things you're saying here. His ability is based around his calculative ability, not some abstract 'will power of strength'. To me it sounds like you're reaching for a connection with what little evidence you have but it's not really supporting your point very well, especially when you post a quote about how the ability is tied to calculations in the first place. Yes, mental fortitude is a factor, but that's in regards to stabilization of the abilities.

The article was about how one increases in level, so the factors mentioned are not just about stability. You're trying to dismiss all the other factors based on no evidence whatsoever, other than your mistaken preconception that abilities can only change in strength through calculation ability. Despite the fact that the article mentions all of them equally and with no distinction. It literally mentions calculations together with focus, understanding and natural expression in the same sentence. Meanwhile, they point out the importance of mental strength and ideologies as especially important for Accelerator in particular.

Yet somehow you still wish to argue that calculations are the only relevant part.

The ability to solve the equation is a precondition for using a power, but there is no reason to believe it is the whole deciding factor.

We know the Parameter List exists for example. There are many espers who have a clear-cut cap in their development. They will NOT get higher no matter how much 'will power' or 'the strength of their ideologies' increase. As an example, many of the Tokiwadai girls are pretty flimsy and have little to no core ideologies. They're just rich girls who know little about the world, yet you have level 4's and 3's roaming around there. Hell, Hamazura himself has one of the strongest stances in the series but his level hasn't budged an inch. If we're going to assume that Willpower/Ideology = power ups, then we have to look at the logic behind Level caps to begin with. And...what is the only way we've seen that 'level cap' be broken?

Which is not really relevant, since the person in question can reach Level 6 meaning his growth cap isn't reached.

Also consider that AC can actually use cyborg technology to boost calculation ability (e.g. Rensa or Coffins), but despite that have not been able to produce a level 6 yet.

The growth cap is presumably calculated from various factors and we have no idea how. Their personality does probably play a big role. I seriously doubt it's a physiological limit of the brain alone, since AC has tech advanced enough to easily mess with that.

By adding more calculations! Because calculations is a more important factor than either of those mentioned above, in which, Accelerator is severely lacking in his post-headshot keys, thus it should logically make him weaker. Except he isn't. He's stronger but that's only because he's learning new ways to apply his ability.

That calculations are more important is something you have provided no evidence for whatsoever.


TL;DR Basically all your arguments were addressed in the OP. You have provided no evidence actually in favor of backwards scaling, but just suggested how there might be a possibility that some factors didn't grow or that those factors maybe didn't make up for calculations.
Meaning that you haven't actually advanced on your burden of proof in the slightest with this reply and the backwards scaling should still be rejected for the same reasons.

 

[DontTalkDT]

No it doesn't? That's normal and doesn't make it more convoluted at all, for real why do you think adding more keys would be optimal here?

Its easy, Accel will have 4 keys and four tabs, the last tab will have a sub tab for the Platinum Wings, Vampire Hunter D has a profile like that, Naruto (War Arc) does that with the TSB, etc. Or IDK, do it like Asta's profile which just literally has the name of his sword/transformation bolded before listing what powers it gives.

Because making a key for a state with its own stats, powers and special requirements to enter is easier than to try to fuse it all into one.

Like, we can either have it as a separate key or add a conditional add-on to every aspect of his former key.

But sure, whatever. We'll do it your way if it gets this thread finally concluded.



The only question I have right now is whether or not I should call in staff members once more or just proceed as no new evidence was shown.

 

[XDragnoir]

And Level 6 is hardly "Accelerator but more clever". We have seen in Misaka's Level 6 Shift that Level 6 is a whole different dimension of power.

Ehhhh

Wasn't Mikoto connected to the Misaka Network during the L6S? I doubt it was directly stated but that would increase her calc potency a lot, Mikoto as a Lv5 is among the fastest brains in AC and the MN has 50% of preHS Accel's calc potency.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That comment wasn't about calc speed. It was in response to:
"The entire foundation of 'Level 6' is a faux premise to begin with, Accelerator could've likely reached Level 6 by simply min-maxing his ability and not by making it stronger, but by figuring out how far he could take its applications."
Level 6 is definitely not just base Accelerator but having learned more applications of his existing abilities. As we saw with Misaka during the L6S getting to level 6 is a big increase in power and basically seems to involve ascending to whole higher planes of existence or something like that.


That calculations increase power really isn't a point of debate. They do. But without contrary evidence, it makes 0 sense to ignore all the other factors mentioned involved esper growth with the mere reasoning "maybe they raise something other than AP" and "Accelerator might not have increased in them", if there is nothing indicating either. (And plenty indicating that he probably has)

 

[XDragnoir]

Because making a key for a state with its own stats, powers and special requirements to enter is easier than to try to fuse it all into one.

Abou this:

Having it's own stats (which is really just AP, Dura) does not stop Goku and Luffy from having their transformations in the same key.

Powers also don't have anything to do with adding or not a new key due them being in their own tabs regardless of the form having a key.

As for special requirements, what are you talking about?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah, yeah. As said we can do it your way.
Just wanna get this done.

@Zensum Do you have any relevant quotes to add that debunk anything of what I said? Would appreciate at least a short outline of what you're gonna say already, so we can move this along.

 

[Zensum]

@DontTalkDT Uh, it was a holiday today so my post isn't written with quotes yet.

However, what I can tell you is I basically completely agree with LazyHunter's old post on how Accelerator should be rated and think it solves all the raised backscaling issues. It should be up by tomorrow afternoon.

 

[DontTalkDT]

...wasn't LazyHunter against the backscaling? Or do I remember that wrong?
Don't really remember the post you're referring to, in any case.

 

[Peter1129]

So from what I've read in this thread this is pretty much how Accelerator's profile will look after the revision right?

Tier/AP: 7-B, High 6-A with Earth's Rotational Energy | 7-B, higher with Black Wings, High 6-A with Earth's Rotational Energy | High 6-C, higher with Black Wings, even higher with White Wings, High 6-A with Earth's Rotational Energy | 5-B, higher with Black Wings, even higher with White Wings, 4-B with Platinum Wings

Keys: Pre-Headshot | Post-Headshot | Post-Aiwass | Post-Qliphah Puzzle 545

Do we keep the "Varies with what vectors are available" part on his updated profile?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah, something like that.

Oh yeah, the varies was on the as well, huh. I will leave that debate for another thread. (well, the varies itself is fine anyway. But we at some point have to talk about the "scales to durability"-thing)

 

[Zensum]

The reason the scaling is inconsistent is because Accelerator should not have a fixed value of 5-B as his AP in the first place. It should all have been Varies. His AP from punches and kicks are only 5-B because he's fighting 5-B characters with his vector redirection. I am in agreement with this post from Lazy and think it's the best idea for formatting Accelerator's base keys.

LazyHunter

I have always been of the opinion that trying to assign a fixed value to Accelerator's AP is silly. From the start in OT3, his attacks hit exactly as hard as he wants them to hit. Like his redirection, his AP should be measured by the highest amount of energy he has been shown to manage for attacks, and since there's no explicit increase in power of his base form's vector manipulation (what's more, there was a downgrade in terms of calculation prowess), the current AP should be scaled backwards just like his redirection is. So I agree with this part.

The base keys for vector control AP should just be simplified to:
Varies with what vectors are available (will scale depending on the opponent's own durability, via reflecting and multiplying the rebounding/reactionary forces encountered upon contact)

Counter-Evidence 1: It's inconsistent​

Snip

The only reason Accelerator's fight against Kakine wasn't decided instantly is because he didn't understand Dark Matter. Kakine doesn't scale to Accelerator's 5-B feats because Kakine doesn't have 5-B vectors. In addition to the choker battery and the civilian handicap that you mention, upfront Kakine says challenging Accelerator to a fair fight would be stupid. Accelerator says using this universe’s vector calculations in his reflection end up putting holes in his armor when against Dark Matter. He also says he can feel his vector control punches go awry when attacking Dark Matter. Kakine is only able to clash head on and last as long as he did with Accelerator because of Dark Matter's ability to exploit his reflection's whitelist with unknown physics by leveraging his thought patterns. The moment he reconfigures his calculations to include Dark Matter, Kakine gets reflected like normal and their fight is decisively settled.

Like above, neither Kazakiri or Misha scale to Accelerator's 5-B feats because they are not physically 5-B.

Base Fiamma doesn't scale to Accelerator's 5-B feats either. I feel like ignoring the context behind Accelerator's feats and ability in general when you're scaling him is why none of this makes sense. Accelerator was always capable of feats involving 5-B vectors, but he's only capable of performing the 5-B feats he does in the series because he gains the knowledge of esoteric laws that the 5-B magic characters he fights use and can incorporate them in his calculations.

Counter-Evidence 2: Accelerator can become more powerful through battle​

Snip

That insane experiment that had used Accelerator hadn’t been a plan to Shift him into Level 6 at all. It was to mass-produce espers and place them throughout the world. In order to send them outside in the most natural way possible, the Radio Noise project was destroyed, and even the project that used that as a front, the Level 6 Shift experiment, was crushed. With those two incidents as a front, the Sisters had been spread across the planet. The scheme had clearly been successful.

With that, it couldn’t help but to give people thoughts to overturn the basic premises their thoughts were based on. In other words, were there more plots inside the Level 6 Shift project? If everything was just the results somebody had planned, then had that experiment been created to fail from the beginning? (...Just what did me and that brat get dragged into while we weren’t noticing?)

Aleister was the board chairman who had mass-produced more than twenty thousand military clones, disposed of them in an experiment, and used that as camouflage to spread the Misaka Network, so she did not hold back on this subject.

Not only did Aleister orchestrate the entire Level 6 Shift project as a cover for the disposal and distribution of clones across the globe, but the experiment itself was also purposefully set up to be a failure from the beginning.

Simply put, Tree Diagram was the world’s smartest super computer. It was the ultimate simulator created under the pretext of being a perfect weather forecaster.

It was planned around the predictive calculations of a supercomputer, but the results of those calculations had been found incorrect, so the entire experiment was frozen semi-permanently.

Its plan had been conceived in the Tree Diagram’s simulations, but the results of those calculations had been judged to be erroneous.

That quote doesn't say battle can increase an Esper's power. It says the use of powers in battle quickens the growth process. Growth being accuracy as far as Telekinesis or Pyrokinesis is concerned, which is pretty much a given. Of course you get more skilled at using something with practice. The main point is there's no evidence that says battles would increase the heat or pressure output of Telekinesis or Pyrokinesis to up their level.

Anyway, the type of AIM diffusion field an esper gives off depends on what power they have. For example, a Pryokinesis user generates heat, a Telekinesis user generates pressure over their surroundings.

The Tree Diagram proposes a method based on search criteria, different from ordinary Curriculum, to shift Accelerator based on the fact ability accuracy growth is quickened in combat. The researchers created the Level 6 Shift experiment to test if the scenarios produced by Tree Diagram's predictive calculations would actually up Accelerator's level as simulated. We learn the plan that had been conceived in the Tree Diagram’s simulations based on that premise was erroneous.

Accelerator pondered. The battle with the Sisters and Railgun was over. Could he say that he had changed for it? Had he grown weaker? Had he grown stronger?

There's also no indication in the novel Accelerator's power increased at all during the months of experiments and battle scenarios designed to control direction of his growth. All he gained from it was new creative methods of killing people with his existing power and innovation with wind control. Additionally in your quote, Kamijou notes after reading that there was something definitely wrong about what's written in the report and the researchers were for some reason carrying out bad things based on that wrongness.

“Yes. It was easy enough to destroy one or two labs, but the experiment was then picked up by another lab. No matter how many times I destroyed the lab or got in the way, the experiment continued on and continued on. The idea of the never before-seen Level 6 must truly sound wonderful to those researchers.”

There are that many research institutions involved in the project because when Mikoto would sabotage one, another facility would magically pick the experiment up. SYSTEM is the core goal of Academy City's research organizations in general so it's obvious any facility would kill for a chance to be involved. In addition, the Tree Diagram that only the Board of Directors have direct access too and has processing and computation ability exceeding everything else in Academy City has determined a way to shift Accelerator. It would be bizarre if there weren't researchers and facilities tripping over themselves to join the project.

He was the only student. He had no classmates. He didn’t participate in any athletic meets or culture festivals. He just sat there at his desk, by himself, in a cramped classroom. In a school with two thousand students. It wasn’t like he’d ever felt dissatisfied by it. But long ago, the scientists had told him it was because he was the strongest Level 5. The class was to have him shift to Level 6.

Either way, it doesn’t change that I was killing all of you. I had fun. I was happy about it. I wanted to do it!” “That’s a lie, says Misaka as Misaka denies your words. Misaka doesn’t think you wanted to be in the experiment at all, says Misaka as Misaka surmises.”

And to think—he might have been driven into the experiment in the first place just because he needed a place to vent all that.

“Wouldn’t it be a problem if I read what was behind the scenarios?” The main part of the experiment only required him to complete twenty thousand scripted combat scenarios. Its ultimate goal was to initiate Accelerator’s shift from Level 5 to Level 6 by improving his skills as an esper through battle and controlling the direction they grew in. In other words, if he knew more than he needed to, it became possible that he wouldn’t act in accordance with these predetermined scenarios. So they’d been careful not to let him see too much of the experiment’s data...

“That’s correct, but how many of those battles needed to be done before it ended?” “Whaddaya mean? Twenty thousand, right? I did think that was a nice, round number, but—” Accelerator broke off, realizing something.

Accelerator was going along with the experiment because level 6 was his greatest chance at gaining peace of mind. He joins the experiment for a chance at absolute power so that no one would be foolish enough to challenge him. From an early age the scientists instilled that he was the strongest Level 5 and the solitary class was to have him shift to Level 6. He was only driven to the experiment to vent and connect, which is why Misaka noted it was odd he would try to make conversation with the sisters. He went along with the researchers saying the clones were just dolls. He went along with battles even without reading any supporting data and underlying logic behind the scenarios that would control the direction his power toward level 6. He even found it odd 20,000 clones was such a nice and round number...

Counter-Evidence 3: Accelerator can grow more powerful via character development​

Snip

This issue with this quote from the article as an argument is Accelerator and Misaka, through the power curriculum, naturally have the potential for level 5 because of their innate talent and strong minds, which allow them to grasp and understand that phenomena. See Parameter List where they determine Mikoto has the predisposition for level 5 back when she was only a level 1 and that the potentials of individual were all determined before they started studying and before they even entered the schools. Firm ideologies and principles are more related to personality and built up with personal growth and experiences and obviously aren't known when they are still children. They could more importantly potentially factor into what type of power an Esper develops. For example:

Mugino Shizuri. Academy City’s #4 Level 5. Her power was known as Meltdowner. Electrons always appeared as either a particle or a wave, but her power let her emit them while they were fixed in a pure state that could not distort into either form. That attack known as the Particle-Function Waveform High Speed Cannon held enough destructive power to slice apart an Aegis ship. Had she acquired such a power because her personality had been brutal from the beginning or had she gained a brutal personality from acquiring such a power? There may have been no one who could answer to that chicken-and-the-egg question, but there was no mistaking the fact that Mugino Shizuri currently had a personality that befitted the #4 Level 5.

All of this is important, but since we are discussing Accelerator this article is assuming a non-damaged brain. Your quote is also about them reaching level 5 in general which Accelerator was before his injury.

When did his base power get stronger is the issue? I understand his angel wings have to do with his ideology, self-realization and emotions and all that. I understand he unlocked his wings at critical points in his development. Angel synchronization and anger = Black, Pillar of support, magic parchments and self-realization = White... But what does that have to do with his base vector control? Where is there any indication in the novel his base actually got stronger and he at least got over his ability being described as less than half of its original? Also this quote doesn't address the fact his brain is shot so all of his actual ability usage is outsourced and how would that factor to whatever growth he undergoes. It's a leap in logic to say unlocking angel wings, that are essentially an amp that do vector-related calculations on their own for him, also increase his actual brain's ability in base without any evidence...

My Argument: Backscaling​

And a scientific esper’s powers were created purely from the brain. The muddying of his consciousness lowered his calculation ability which in turn had an effect on his control on the macro physical world he could see. Simply put...he lost his reflection ability.

“Hm? Well, his frontal lobe is injured, after all. It’ll effect his speech and mathematical abilities, see?” “His mathematical abilities…” For Accelerator, that could be lethal. In order to alter vectors, he needed to calculate the vector before changing it and the vector afterward. His unconscious reflection was no more than him solving the simplest equations without thinking about them.

“Academy City esper powers are controlled using high level calculation ability. Even if you don’t normally think of it that way, you are still carrying out complex calculations without knowing it. Throwing that out of order can be quite useful. There’s no harm in starting with that, don’t you think?”

"Calculation ability..." This was critical damage to Accelerator, as he had to first calculate the 'direction before reflection' and 'direction after reflection' before he could use his ability. Even if he could unconsciously use the reflection ability, it was because he unknowingly calculated the simplest formula. He wouldn't be able to use his ability, even the most basic reflection."

Pre-Headshot Acelerator's computational prowess, the backbone of vector transformation and redirection, is superior to Post-headshot's computational prowess. His math prowess is unable to improve with frontal lobe damage. It is impossible for him to do math better than when had a complete brain which effected his calculation, motors skills and cognitive ability. Vectors are vectors. It's not like the definition and potency of vectors themselves change based on Accelerator's pre/post status. Accelerator is not an ordinary Esper. Vector Transformation and Teleportation are probably the two most calc intensive abilities shown so far. And Accelerator is not in an ordinary situation, all of his brain processes are outsourced. So it would make no sense to say he would be able to handle greater magnitudes because of "growth" or to say he can calculate vectors improved with brain damage. Vector Control (active use of his power and is more calculation intensive: plasma, weather and earth's rotation) and Redirection (passive use which is not as calculation intensive: reversal of oncoming vector) are both circumstantial but in different ways. Amplification of his own bodies strength and speed is separate, but all 3 can be back-scaled and be set to Varies.

Your main argument seems to be Accelerator got stronger in other ways and sometime after his injury and Accelerator was able to increase his vector transformation beyond his healthy brain from ideologies and principles or battle experience. The issue is he continues to admit his power is inferior in calculation ability and his frontal lobe is still shot. Yes I agree he got "stronger", but not by improving the underlaying mechanic of his vector control which is computation. Yes every Esper's power is rooted in their strong mind, ideology, see Personal Reality. Growth in a personal reality is strongly associated with growth in Esper calculation ability. Logically if he's grown as you say his condition without outsourcing should have improved in some kind of noticeable degree? Accelerator still hasn't made any noticeable progress in his condition and has not regained any of his own calculation prowess when he's unaided by the Misaka Network because his brain is damaged. Interaction with magic and the unknown and subsequent personality changes and self realization have nothing to do with this in particular and is more strongly associated with his development of wings which is described as unknown inputs into his Personal Reality and reaching a new clearance field. Accelerator can't simply repair his brain with growth. Experience is really only good for becoming more adept and gaining more applications for the power. It's been shown increasing processing capacity levels up the esper like with the Level Upper network. Various factors determine inherent potential and talent/power development. The series hasn't given a definitive answer on what these are. Long after his injury, we still get quotes saying his ability, intellect, and brain power is weaker and that is vector control is reliant on calculations and no quotes saying his ability to control vectors in base has improved so where is this coming from?

“You really are pathetic! Listen up, ‘cause I’m only gonna tell you this once.” The person spread his arms slowly to either side in the darkness. “I did take some brain damage that day. As you can see by looking at my face, I’ve gotta outsource all my calculations with these electrodes now. If I go out of range of those damn clones’ waves, they can’t help me do the calculations. I don’t even know if I’ve got half my old power left. I wouldn’t last fifteen minutes in real combat with how ******* terrible this thing’s battery life is.” “But—” said Accelerator, pausing. “—just because I’ve gotten weaker doesn’t mean you got any stronger, now, does it?”

OT8

“I can’t do this with math, but I have to solve it somehow, so I’ve brought together every single bit of knowledge I have. I do have the #1 brain in Academy City after all. I’m not particularly proud of it, but I have a lot packed in here. And so I started doing a self- search through every part of my head pulling out every kind of information and just pulling it out and pulling it out and pulling it out.” His words alone continued. Misaka Worst should know what he meant. His calculative and linguistic abilities were being supplemented by the almost ten thousand Sisters. In other words, his original intellectual specs were simply that great.

OT22

However, is this really something worth being shocked over? It was already hinted at a long time ago. Like that brain-crippled Accelerator using an external network to help him calculate, Musujime Awaki using a low frequency therapy apparatus to stabilize her mind...there’s no need to stick to just the human body

NT1

certain situation had led to Accelerator’s brain being severely injured, so he could not use his power of the strongest or even stand on his own two feet or understand human language without receiving calculation support from the Misaka Network via his choker.

“Academy City esper powers are controlled using high level calculation ability. Even if you don’t normally think of it that way, you are still carrying out complex calculations without knowing it. Throwing that out of order can be quite useful. There’s no harm in starting with that, don’t you think?”

NT6

“Even the #1’s reflection is reliant on the calculations you use to control that power. Simply put, you cannot control any vectors with which your conscious and unconscious calculations cannot keep up. Of course, with the brain of Academy City’s #1 and the Misaka Network at your disposal, that would not normally present any kind of problem. ...Yes, unless you began a benchmark test with a true processing device. And even if I have been freed from the bonds of that largescale parallel processing device, I am still doing the Thoth Tarot.”

NT19

With a power like Accelerator's if he can't accurately calculate the vector, his power won't function properly and his reflection wont work. Pre Headshot can calculate vector values that his damaged brain cant, via having higher processing power. This growth is irrelevant to this fact. Unless you have some evidence we haven't seen? Vector Change is the underlaying functionality of all of Accelerators ability applications so processing power is important in all of them. Whether it be direction change, magnitude change or whatever else, it requires calculation of the vector value before and after.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The argument for backwards scaling​

Let me start at the end. You bring nothing new to the table here. Nobody denies that calculations are essential for Accelerators power. Nobody denies that losing part of his calculation powers meant that he got initially weaker as that is a weakening factor. Nobody argues that Accelerator regained his calculation capacity. Nobody denies that doing calculations is a prerequisite for his power.
However, nothing of that matters, as Accelerator could have become stronger in ways other than his calculations to make his ability in total stronger. None of your quotes says that Accelerator hasn't grown stronger than his original self or in general.

Sure, no quote states that he has grown stronger either. However, the burden of proof is on you. We don't default to backwards scaling just because the character could possibly not have grown stronger. I only need to show that he could have grown stronger. You have to show that it is impossible that he has. Those are the requirements.
Feat wise we see that he accomplished more impressive feats over time, which in itself is indicative.
And we have knowledge of multiple factors that can influence power and Accelerator could have changed in them.
Therefore you don't show the necessary things to perform backwards scaling.

On Counter Evidence 3​

Once again your counter-argument is based on the wrong premise.
Sure, it's possible that Accelerator hasn't grown in ideologies and streng of mind or that growing in these didn't influence his base power, but only extended powers. Given what happened in the novel I consider it highly unlikely that he didn't grow, but it's theoretically possible, sure.
However, that's not sufficient to uphold the backwards scaling.
To uphold the backwards scaling you have to show that he did factually not grow and that it factually didn't influence his base power. You didn't do that, so your argument is insufficient to keep up the scaling.

Let me say that your argument to "they could be more related to the type of power" makes no sense. They also already knew that Misaka will be an Electromaster. In fact, they knew so well that they went for her DNA map to do the Radionoise clones.
The parameter list in general is just not the best argument, as virtually all factors would be influenced while growing up. Even calculation prowess would in part depend on education. It is worthwhile to remember that the parameter list only lists the potential of a person. Reaching that potential can still take various measures in the course of the power curriculum program. E.g. Mitsuari Ayu has Level 5 cap by the parameter list but hasn't received access to the programs necessary to realize her power. And Awaki also has the brain for it, but can't due to her trauma.
Heck, the power curriculum program includes education, hypnosis and brain surgery, so it isn't even implausible that personalities are affected when developing powers.
But such speculation aside, what I want to say is that the Parameter List is a prediction based on certain assumptions of optimized development. It is a limit to where they can develop, not a guarantee that they will.

Actually, since you mentioned Misaka, one good example against calculation power being virtually the only deciding factor in power of abilities is the Misaka clones. They have biologically speaking a brain with the same potential as Misaka. In fact, they have a network of 10k such brains linked together. Yet they are Level 3 and Misaka Level 5. If the brain's biologically given calculation prowess were the major deciding factor this shouldn't be possible.
If you asked me what the probable difference is, it's that Misaka has a stronger will, greater ideology and possibly such factors as Misaka having a more natural expression of her power. (She seems a good deal more creative than the clones)
Of course, that's also just speculation, but so is the counterargument. Point is, growth without calculation growth is a thing that can exist.

On Counter Evidence 2​

As I already said from the beginning, yes the project was set up to fail by Aleister. Which doesn't necessarily mean that it couldn't have worked. He never intended to let it finish whether it would work or not, since he needed the clones that Accelerator was killing, as your quotes show.

As said in the OP, many experts definitely believed it were true and we have no actual indication of the simulation being faked either. It's an unlikely scenario that the very basis for the project, battles being able to make Espers stronger, was complete nonsense. Sure, many research organisations would love to be involved in Level 6 Shift, but that is only in a Level 6 Shift project that is actually promising. If ability researchers looked at it and said "that's obviously nonsense, Accelerators power can't grow independent of his calculations" they wouldn't get involved. There's virtually no way that growth outside of calculation prowess can't occur when so many research institutions believed in it.

The quotes regarding Tree Diagram's calculations being wrong is also rather brazenly taken out of context by you. That's from Volume 5 when Tree Diagram was destroyed and the researchers were tricked into believing the old calculation they had were wrong. That was literally the entire plan about Level 0 Touma defeating Accelerator.

That was why Mikoto had been thinking of stopping the experiment by making the researchers think that scenario would not work.
If something that simple could stop the experiment, then it was quite simple indeed.

“...I’m sure Tree Diagram took the fact that Accelerator is the strongest in Academy City into account for its calculations.”

If the experiment could be stopped by having them believe in a bluff, then...
“Then it’s simple. We just have to make the researchers think that this Accelerator they

insist is the strongest is actually really absurdly weak.”
What if Accelerator, supposedly Academy City’s strongest esper, were to easily lose in a

simple street fight?

Even if the simulations said he was Academy City’s strongest, would the researchers really continue to believe Accelerator was the strongest after seeing something as pathetic as that?

Wouldn’t that make the researchers think the machine’s predictions were wrong?

(from Toaru Majutsu no Index - Volume 3)

What speaks against your interpretation of "battles only increase skill not power" is that the researchers themselves interpreted these results as evidence towards it being a factor for Level 6 Shift, which as we know from the Misaka Level 6 Shift involved not only a major increase and power but seemingly something like ascending to a higher plane.
As such, in greater context, the quote still suggest power growth. Or, at minimum possible power growth.

It should be just varies​

No. Nowhere does the novel say that and Accelerator has shown plenty of times the ability to just generate power from nothing (or at least severely amplify existing powers). When he lightly kicks a rock and makes it so fast that it vaporizes that it not the result of the "rebounding force", but him quite simply amplifying the speed/kinetic energy of the rock. The degree to which he can do such things is his usual AP. If you put him into a vacuum there is still a certain amount of AP he can produce, simply by amplifying his own movements. That's his usual AP. The ability to redirect existing forces is entirely separate. (As said, the whole 'scales to durability'-thing will be discussed in a different thread)

Inconsistencies​

Just take the first clash between Accelerator and Kakine.

Accelerator and Kakine Teitoku clashed head on! A shock wave exploded outwards, flattening everything, knocking down bystanders, and breaking glass windows. Even in the midst of this mess, however, each’s eyes were only on their opponent.
The result for this round was clear.
Kakine Teitoku, who had taken the attack head-on, was blown backwards and smashed into a café with a loud crash. But Accelerator merely felt displeasure, since the other side seemed to have avoided a head on confrontation.
“So you’re the esper that can control any vectors.”
Came a voice out of the café that looked like it had been hit by a bomb.
“Then, what if you were to smash into a large mass that can’t be moved regardless of all the vectors you can gather? Guess that wouldn’t work. As long as my vectors aren’t being controlled, it’s meaningless.”
Completely unhurt.

Accelerator clearly managed to apply a force on Kakine. A force that knocked him back. No matter how you put it, if Accels power had been quadrillion times stronger, be it via AP or rebounding force, Kakine would have been dead right there.

Also recall that Accelerator can from the beginning reflect Dark Matter and Kakine has to use the energies on the whitelist to hurt him.

“If you reflect sound then you can’t hear anything, and if you reflect physical objects you cannot hold anything. You subconsciously establish a filter that sees everything as harmful or not, and use your reflect to push away anything that could harm you.”
Accelerator spit out the blood in his mouth, blew apart the water cylinder on top of the building with one stomp and jumped aside using the rebound.
The white wings that struck down crashed into the building, and split the building vertically in two. Large dust clouds swelled outwards from there.
“The sunlight and wind affected by the Dark Matter are infused with 25,000 different kinds of energy. Then by observing your reflection and using a filtering system that judges which energies are deemed ‘harmful’ or not, I can use the energies that are subconsciously accepted as not harmful to attack you.”
Even if Accelerator changed the rules which his reflect was based on, Kakine Teitoku would immediately use his Dark Matter to inspect the change. The repeated attack and defense this way would only make Accelerator’s wounds get worse and worse.
“Such is Dark Matter.”


So if reflection of the rebounding force were all the difference that would be actually possible for Accel.

The entire "Accel has no AP" theory aside, the two are described in comparable terms as far as AP goes.

Accelerator’s tornadoes swept away Kakine’s wings, and Kakine’s wings blew apart Accelerator’s tornadoes.

for example.

Or here. A great example of Accelerator being able to generate strength from nothing and Kakine being very much comparable to his capacity.

Accelerator ignored Kakine’s words and stomped on the gravel road, and then kicked the rocks that were sent flying up using a karate kick.
Boom! A loud explosion rang out.
The vectors of the pebbles were changed and fired off faster than a Railgun, but vanished after a few millimeters. However, the pressure waves did not vanish, and the attack felt as if it would tear the very air apart. But, Kakine also put strength into his wings and scattered the attack. The waves of attacks between the two clashes against one another, sent a ‘tsunami’ of air throughout their surroundings and blew streetlights and advertisement signs into the air.

If Accel were Tier 5 and Kakine Tier 7 this attack would have disintegrated Kakine.


And the same thing can be said against Gabriel. If Accel's usual AP were that high Gabriel would have immediately be destroyed, unless Gabriel is comparable to him, after all.


Btw. want one more evidence against "Accel is only 5-B due to rebounding force"?
One of the first times Accel threatened a 5-B character he explicitly didn't.

Accelerator closed the fingers he had opened like claws and pulled back his clenched fist.
He could use a large swing of the arm. He had created enough of an opening for it.
Just like a certain boy, he poured all his strength into his fist and released it!!
It was like an explosion.
An invisible shockwave scattered around the center of the hit and the old walls of Edinburgh Castle shook.
And yet the #1 monster clicked his tongue a bit.
“You redirected the vector.”
“Kee hee hee.”
Coronzon had indeed slid backwards.
But she had avoided a direct hit to the face. Her absurdly long hair had formed several bundles that layered themselves in front of her. Each of those bundles and even each individual hair bent and negated the vector that should have passed through it. A strange sensation ran through Accelerator’s fist and back through his bones, like he had punched a powerful spring.
And.
“Ee hee. Nee hee hee. Kee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee.”
Something like a balloon inflated and burst in the center of the #1’s chest.
This was not blood, flesh, or bone.
It was something more invisible, harder to understand, and yet of great importance.
“Tch!!”
“I am a demon, but not from the Qliphoth. I am the Great Demon that dwells in the Abyss of the Sephiroth. The Sephiroth’s 10 Sephirah and 22 pathways are also a conversion table for producing the supernatural by connecting the great universe of the world with the small universe of the body. Do you feel it? An arm is formed from Chesed and Gevurah and its five fingers control the five elements. The middle finger controls fire and the red of blood, which symbolizes the activity of the heart. You made a mistake when you accepted the rebounding force to measure how much damage you had done, one who remains in the human realm.”
Simply put, the damage passed from his fist, up his arm, and to his heart.
Carelessly touching her would harm him.

By your logic him not reflecting the rebounding force would mean this was just a regular human punch thrown as an attack against a 5-B entity.

So yeah, Accel has an AP rating besides just varies. For the later keys it's 5-B. It makes no sense to backwards scale it as it's terribly inconsistent.


TL;DR: The possibility of Accelerator having grown stronger due to the factors that have been shown to exist in the OP have not been disproven. All that has been argued is that it's possible that Accelerator hasn't grown.
The inconsistencies continue to be inconsistencies.



So, to not drag this any longer, given that the thread is up for over two weeks already, I will ask some staff members for their opinion once more. Everyone has got their say so I hope that isn't a problem.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@Damage3245 You have given your opinion earlier. There have been two new posts arguing against the OP since. Has your opinion changed?
@Celestial_Pegasus You frequently deal with LN verses, so I guess I will ask you for an evaluation as well.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Have only watched the Toaru anime, that said based on the arguments here, DontTalk makes the most sense to me.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That's 2 staff votes for removing the backwards scaling then. (If we continue to count @Damage3245's earlier vote and not my own)

 

[Accelerate420]

I'm just gonna ignore the counter argument cause Zenzum has quotes and more details and addresses anything I would have said anyway.

However at the risk of sounding volatile, what the **** is that counter DT?

You literally just dismiss anything against your points because it doesn't immedietly disprove your assumption on the verse, despite the assumption you're providing having no real backing either.

People don't get stronger with esper powers out of nowhere and esper development programs exist throughout the series because no one actually has any idea WHAT will work and it's by plot and miracles that it works half the time and the only clear indicator of increasing their level or power is reinforcing their mental issues and their calculation powers.

I mean hell you try tearing apart zensum here by saying 'oh you took this out of context haha, got ya' except you're literally lying about the misaka clones. They don't have the calculating parameters of the entire misaka network. That's literally NEVER been a thing except for last order and the WILL. They are also like clearly inferior to misaka at several points in the series and aren't perfect clones as shown I mean.. basically every time they've ever interacted???

Also the arguement that 'there was a project that researchers thought could work' is honestly just a hilarious concept considering you're talking about ACADEMY CITY, you realize they have like a less than 40% actually successful project ratio? Literally just compare how many of their projects that get mentioned actually work and do what was planned compared to how many have failed. So thats an absolute cop out.

Following this we have literally a nonsense 'inconsistency' list of which I'm not even sure how you're justifying as 'inconsistency' there's no inconsistencies present in it and there's no 'base' accelerator power being shown.

Like- I'll be real; it sounds less like you actually want an accurate rendition of the verse and you just want to bully through your own beliefs about it judging with how you are so absolutely dismissive of anything against it and are doing your best to push it through without actually addressing anything or the disagreements of people who ACTUALLY DO know the verse.

Like what's the point of having a thread about it if you just want to bully it through by using your own connections?!? It's really laughable if nothing else.

 

[DontTalkDT]

First, again, I have demonstrated the existence of multiple possible growth factors. And we see Accel's feats get more impressive.
I don't need to prove "Accelerator definitely got stronger". We don't assume that characters didn't get stronger just because there is no definitive statement that they did. We have feats that he gets stronger and the possibility that he gets stronger. That's all I need for my point.
Backwards scaling is something that needs definitive proof that growth didn't occure.

Misaka clones are biologically identical and have the same brainwave network Accelerator is linked to now. Their calculation capabilities are literally his. Yeah, the clones are inferior in abilities. But that's the point. You can make a copy of the person and get an inferior result, so just the biological brain quality isn't the only factor in growth. Meaning that biological damage to the brain also doesn't stop all growth, as there are other factors.
So I'm not lying about anything.

Academy City is so successful in science that cutting-edge technology becomes outdated in a week. Saying that the researchers of the capital of science that is decades ahead of the rest of the world are incapable makes no sense.

I won't repeat myself on the inconsistencies, as the argument you just made is just "lol no".

I addressed all arguments and I am also one of the people that actually do know the verse. So your appeal to the authority of yourself and Zensum really doesn't work. Also, I very much have an interest in an accurate rendition, which is why I'm having this thread. It's ironic to hear this from one of the people that added concept manipulation to Accel at one point.

Staff members can vote whatever they want. I don't tell them what they should vote and ultimately it will come down to their vote anyway. I just have no interest in dragging this on forever. The thread is up for two weeks now, which was when I had a lot of time, and now I'm about to get rather busy. So I don't want to drag this on by endless circular arguing until it runs in sand (if we are honest, most staff won't read more walls of text than these anyway). I gave everyone the chance to present their argument, which both you and Zensum did.

 

[Zensum]

The argument for backwards scaling​

Snip

You keep running around these quotes. The issue is Accelerator's power is the operation of vectors and his ability to calculate vectors can't have grown... the quotes say as much... How can less processing power be better than more processing power? You haven't told us what is letting him do math better?

“His mathematical abilities…” For Accelerator, that could be lethal. In order to alter vectors, he needed to calculate the vector before changing it and the vector afterward.

"Calculation ability..." This was critical damage to Accelerator, as he had to first calculate the 'direction before reflection' and 'direction after reflection' before he could use his ability. Even if he could unconsciously use the reflection ability, it was because he unknowingly calculated the simplest formula. He wouldn't be able to use his ability, even the most basic reflection."

“I know all about it! You don’t have your calculation abilities right now. That power you once had is gone! You can’t use it! You’re not the strongest esper anymore, or even close!!” she shouted as though elated by her triumph.

His calculative and linguistic abilities were being supplemented by the almost ten thousand Sisters. In other words, his original intellectual specs were simply that great.

There is no indication that the "growth" Post-Headshot Accelerator went through has bridged the gap of losing more than 50% processing power via brain damage compared to his Pre-Headshot self and you seem to agree this is the case. You say it has somehow, but there are no quotes. You say his power grew to exceed his former self at some vague point, but there are no quotes. You say it's possible that the gap in Accelerator's specific mental ability to be closed via other growth but there are no quotes. The burden of proof is on you to explain how and when his base vector control ability exceeded his former, because by every account it hasn't. This is also ignoring the fact that The Misaka Network runs his power not him...

1) Every feat you've shown was accomplished by understanding new laws and there are many quotes that say this, but there are none that say his ability to calculate vectors flat out increased.
2) Those number of factors can be relevant in normal Esper development, however it's completely irrelevant when we're discussing how he made up for his loss in mathematical ability or his injured brain.

On Counter Evidence 3​

Snip

The backwards scaling is upheld because he factually did not grow. There has been no improvement in his brains condition by any account.

As you can see by looking at my face, I’ve gotta outsource all my calculations with these electrodes now. If I go out of range of those damn clones’ waves, they can’t help me do the calculations. I don’t even know if I’ve got half my old power left.

Everything in this quote is still true from OT5 all the way to the current GT books, his condition has not changed and he still outsources. You have not shown any evidence to disprove this, you've only brought theories and threads that say regular Espers with heathy brains, motors skills and cognitive ability that don't have a power like Vector Control, an ability with it's is core in computation, can possibly develop in other ways, and framed it as being somehow relevant to Accelerator's condition when it's not.

The point of that quote is to show there could be a correlation with a persons personality and the power that is developed or vice versa, not that they didn't know what their power would be. The reason I brought up Parameter List is because an Espers potential limit can be predicted from the moment they start curriculum and thats how the researches decide where to allocate resources. Mass production of level 5 clones was decided when Mikoto was level 1. Theres no way to tell what firm ideologies and principles a child has as those are built up along the way so this factor is largely unimportant.

The only issue with this argument is they don't have the same Esper potential as Misaka... It's said several times that each clone possesses less that 1% of Mikoto's specs. They are deteriorated copies of Railgun that cap at level 2 and 3. Whatever reason they are degraded by the cloning, they have inferior calculation ability. Also, The Network = level 3 isn't how that works. The sisters don't support each others calculations. It's used for communication and sharing information. It's only Accelerator that uses them as a parallel arithmetic network... This doesn't prove Accelerator's vector control can be increased without better calculations.

On Counter Evidence 2​

Snip

With that, it couldn’t help but to give people thoughts to overturn the basic premises their thoughts were based on. In other words, were there more plots inside the Level 6 Shift project? If everything was just the results somebody had planned, then had that experiment been created to fail from the beginning? (...Just what did me and that brat get dragged into while we weren’t noticing?)

That insane experiment that had used Accelerator hadn’t been a plan to Shift him into Level 6 at all. It was to mass-produce espers and place them throughout the world. In order to send them outside in the most natural way possible, the Radio Noise project was destroyed, and even the project that used that as a front, the Level 6 Shift experiment, was crushed. With those two incidents as a front, the Sisters had been spread across the planet.

If you agree the entire experiment was purposefully set up to fail, then why do you think it could have worked? It also wouldn't have leveled him up, as we get verification the Level 6 Shift project was confirmed to not be a plan to shift Accelerator at all, just look like one as a cover. I mean... Knowing what we know about Level 6, we know killing Railgun how ever many times is demonstrably wrong and would not push Accelerator into SYSTEM. Touma mentions this method looked wrong, but was being carried out anyways when actually reading the reports as I mentioned already. Also whatever low level researchers believe or don't believe takes a back seat when Aleister, Tree Diagram and the board of directors are involved. Additionally, like I already said, by all indication Accelerator gained no power increase from the months of battle scenarios and no evidence of shifting. I will concede, however, that there's no explicit evidence the says the errors in Tree Diagram's simulations are because the premise is wrong. However, the fact this is just a throwaway project to Aleister is already enough proof.

I'm pretty sure it was revealed Gensei uses only uses Misaka and the clones in his project to get back at Aleister and not that. Also, I don't see the how comparing a shift attempt on Misaka, that actually shifted the Esper in question and referenced how using the calculation power of 10,000 espers and pouring it into a single individual could increase someone power to a shift attempt on Accelerator that didn't shift him or noticeably increase is power in any way helps your argument? It does however remind me of the Level Upper which was actually able to level up every kind of Esper by... increasing their calculation abilities.

Varies​

Snip

“The scale was much too small for him to be gathering it from throughout the world, so his ability must have had limits. For example, when he was controlling rather than just reflecting, he might have to calculate out the original vector for the wind as well as the altered vector”

The problem is his vector amplification, which is apart of his active vector transformation, still requires more intense mathematical calculations than reflection so it should be backscaled regardless. It should be at Varies because his amplification attacks simply vary wildly depending on environment and the extent of his control over magnitude is vague and never exposed upon. They usually amount to Accel kicks something arbitrarily hard or he doubles the magnitude and force of an existing object rather than just inverting the attack's direction. He can't throw a building without manipulating the vectors to make it strong and fast, just like he can't throw a punch without taking the vectors from the environment and using it to make him strong and fast. All these feats require the calculation of vectors, which he's best at Pre Headshot.

Inconsistencies​

Snip

I think the issue here is you're using the very old translation which ranges from being translated from Chinese to having missing paragraphs. Js06 at some point fixed up the old OT volumes that were really bad and kept the YP translations he felt were good. OT15 Chapter 5 he kept the YP translation which says:

Accelerator and Kakine Teitoku clashed head-on. The aftermath shock wave blazed through their surroundings equally, mowing people down, shattering glass to smithereens. In every direction, clamors broke out—but neither paid attention. Their clash had shown clear results. Accelerator’s attack had sent Kakine Teitoku flying back. He shot into a café on the road, and a series of cracking and breaking noises followed as he tore through furniture. Accelerator’s expression, however, was nothing if not displeased. The feeling of his punch having purposely gone awry remained in his palm.

Here we clearly see Accelerator admits to his reflection attack going awry in his clash with Kakine, which is of course because of Dark Matter's influence, which clears up that inconsistency. His reflection isn't quadrillion times stronger because those vectors aren't present.

“...I’m done reverse-engineering it.” “!!” Accelerator tried to get out of the way, but Kakine had already unleashed his six wings: as simple blunt killing instruments. Dull sounds ripped through Accelerator’s innards. His body, reflecting every vector, was blown away. He crashed into a tree over ten meters away, breaking its thick trunk in one go.

"that Accelerator can from the beginning reflect Dark Matter"
Clearly, but it doesn't matter because the goal of the sunlight and wind analysis also allows Kakine to slip his dark matter wing blunt attacks through the filter.

“Textbook laws don’t apply, and light waves and EM waves that touch those elementary particles go off in vectors they’re not supposed to. So yeah, I guess trying to use this universe’s vector calculations for it ends up putting holes in my armor.”

After all calculations are the core of his ability. Like I said above, the moment he reconfigures his calculations to include Dark Matter's rules, Kakine gets reflected like normal and their fight ends.

The wind whipped up with a roar. He had the power to manipulate vectors. He could control the directionality of anything that had even the slightest force. And the wind, the flow of the atmosphere around the earth, was no exception. He created a local storm. The 120 m/s blast of wind he controlled fell under the highest M7 class for hurricanes. The atmospheric violence was powerful enough to pick up a car or rip off a house’s roof, so it had surpassed the level of a standard missile. “Die!” shouted Accelerator.

You can’t control the wind with me around. That kind of control requires a much more complex set of equations than just reflecting. It’s the same as program code

All this proves is Kakine and Accelerator can both make top class storm winds. If you recall Vector Transformation and calculations involving wind are more intensive. He can't just make planet level winds... And all his wind calculation attacks, besides in OT3 where he's at max calc ability, for tornadoes, twisters and gales are a consistent speed of 120 m/s in every volume where stated. So the AP comparison argument makes no sense.

"If Accel were Tier 5 and Kakine Tier 7 this attack would have disintegrated Kakine."
Yea this is just arbitrary magnitude manipulation and the quote tells you how much he boosts it by. Every time he kicks small things like rocks their speed is compared to things like shotguns, railguns or rockets. Any great magnitude feat has the starting vector that's already super strong anyways like when he reflecting an attack with double the force.

-

The entire Misha fight makes it abundantly clear he couldn't defeat her like Kazakiri physically unless he actually understood the laws of heaven. His AP is obviously only as high as what vectors there are to use, namely Misha's the one he couldn't manipulate. Repurposing Kazakiri's vectors, who is physically comparable to Misha and using it on her was super effective.

-

"Accel is only 5-B due to rebounding force" isn't my argument. I haven't even spoken about the rebounding force, I just posted the profile verbiage. My argument is Accelerator's AP is only 5-B when there's 5-B magnitude vectors present that he can manipulate. And I'm not sure what you're proving with this quote. It's just Accelerator punching Coronzon's with his vector control which produces a shockwave that shakes the old castle walls and Coronzon completely neutralizing it with her hair?
"By your logic him not reflecting the rebounding force would mean this was just a regular human punch thrown as an attack against a 5-B entity."
His punches contain his vector control which alter the targets vectors on contact and since he understands said 5-B entity it can do great damage to them, how is that a regular punch again?

He raised his fingers like claws and swung them wildly around to tear the false angels to shreds. If he had viewed magic as a different form of esper powers, he never could have accomplished this. If he had made that mistaken detour in his understanding, he would have failed to comprehend its true essence, failed to grasp the vectors, and been injured.

“Yeah, that’s right. I’m new around here, so be nice. And I thought newcomers were called Neophytes, but whatever. Now, don’t forget this one thing: I’m not like you people who’ve stopped working after mastering these things. I’m going to absorb as much as I can to keep growing as much as possible!!” “...!!” In other words, the more power he was given, the stronger he would grow. Just like launching a largescale cyber-attack on the enemy, only to have them analyze it and learn how to do it themselves. Great Demon Coronzon paused for a just a moment.

Additionally the text literally goes out of it's way to tell us these feats against Coronzon are only possible because of his new found understanding being added into his vector control calculations...

Probably my last post on this since I won't have time in the coming days.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I will reply to Zensum's post later. (Although it will for the most part just be things I already said, as there are many repeated arguments)

But first: One thought I had is that we probably would also need to revise Accel's speed, right? I'm in particular thinking about the speed of forms that haven't fought angels yet.
Those in turn could influence speed ratings of others, like Kakine.

I think pre-headshot would still scale above Gunha. So Massively Hypersonic. Post-Headshot, too.
Anything higher one could scale him to (assuming the no backwards scaling thing goes through)? One could maybe argue his Black Wings form should already be above saints due to the cosmic hierarchy, although that is kinda questionable.

 

[Accelerate420]

Don't have much time to make another full reply but think it's kind of funny DT is saying all my point amounts to is 'no u' as my arguement when he's lying about the clones being equal to misaka and how they are accelerators calculations ignoring that I pointed out both these things as being inaccurate and that the clones don't have the equivilant of accelerators calculations BECAUSE AGAIN THEY DONT ALL HABE ACCESS TO THE ENTIRE NETWORK TO USE AS CALCULATION BASE. They are a singular user, not the hivemind which is why will and last order are different and are notable because they DO have access to the entire network and can use it to calculate and everything within

Anyway I'm slightly off point here cause DT's main argument Is 'no you' because apparently the entire story can tell you that something is wrong and not how something works BUT if it doesn't say it explicitly you can just take it and push it through cause you have a mod badge and can basically lie about the verse and ignore how it works as long as you can call up a friendly mod to agree even though two people more knowledgeable on the verse have pointed out all the inconsistent parts of said theory and how it doesn't actually work with the verse.

Anyway, o7 salute to the verse as it gets tanked cause someone thinks their theory is more important than text and what can actually be shown.