Ninjago's Tiering Problem

[Lloydblitzed]

You havent debunked any of my outlier points.

Im convinced your trolling, "GWs are outlier bc of a feat performed by 1 of the 4 weapons" OFC they will be far stronger togheter with a big jump in power, GWs altogheter ≠ Individual GW scaling

 

[Minaaaa]

Let me do a simple logics equation so you have no space of refuting this:
Realms try to share the same space -> Mergequake is there
Mergequake is there being false -> Realms trying to share the same space is false.
Realms no longer try to share the same space means they demerged them. Basically, mergequake is what occurs when two Realms try to share the same space, and when you close it, then this indicated you demerged them.

Or, closing the mergequake... simply closes the mergequake. The realms arent demerging because the ninja closed one small mergequake, else they wouldnt need the dragon cores in the first place

“Can warp the very space-time” tell me rq what does that mean.
“By default, the range of time manipulation is considered universal unless explicitly demonstrated or specified otherwise” tell me rq what does that mean.

Dude, not all people who can manipulate space-time are universal. Several characters on this site are like Aizen, Acnologia from fairy tail isnt. They both manipulate space time and arent Low 2-C

It does not have ANYTHING TO DO with Tier. What the actual thing did you want Garmadon to do? Revive star-sized Soto???

What are you even talking about man? youre making completely nonsensical points.

You actually have to be kidding me, ur telling me being stated to warp space-time isn't a Uni range feat? Really?

Examples above

Are you serious? Do you really think Life Manipulation hax contributes to the GWs having "lower tier feats" ?

If the MW hasnt shown anything close to making an entire star, then the feat is an outlier.

Can you even name ANY AP feat from the GWs except the 2 I mentionned earlier? Oh and you said "6-A to 4-C" is a big jump, but you completly forgot the fact the 6-A rating only scales to each of the weapons INDIVIDUALLY, and the 6-A rating is a feat concerning THE STAFF OF QUAKE BY ITSELF. Your ENTIRE outlier argument is basically comparing the power of a SINGLE GW to the power of the GWs ALTOGHETER

If the scythe of quake is apart of the MW, then the MW gets the feat.... what are you talking about? Is the MW weaker than the Scythe of Quake?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

If the scythe of quake is apart of the MW, then the MW gets the feat.... what are you talking about? Is the MW weaker than the Scythe of Quake?

Or, closing the mergequake... simply closes the mergequake.

The mergequake IS the realms trying to share the same space

The realms arent demerging because the ninja closed one small mergequake, else they wouldnt need the dragon cores in the first place

They need the Dragon Core to stop the MERGEQUAKE STORM, not normal mergequakes

Examples above

They do not counter the fact it warped SPACE TIME

What are you even talking about man? youre making completely nonsensical points.

Ur evidence provided of why its an outlier is the fact the GW couldn't destroy a Dragon (while its power wasn't even used) and Life Manip hax, seriously?

If the MW hasnt shown anything close to making an entire star, then the feat is an outlier.

The GWs togheter ≠ Scythe of Quake scale

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Or, closing the mergequake... simply closes the mergequake.

Yup, exactly, they simply close the mergequake which leads to my reasoning above.

The realms arent demerging because the ninja closed one small mergequake, else they wouldnt need the dragon cores in the first place

They need Dragon Cores to stop ALL of the mergequakes, not just a single one. We are straight up shown Lloyd can do it all by himself, and Kai stated he did it all by himself.

Dude, not all people who can manipulate space-time are universal. Several characters on this site are like Aizen, Acnologia from fairy tail isnt. They both manipulate space time and arent Low 2-C

They were never stated to warp space-time… warp is the key word here. I am not saying that simply reversing time back grants Universal Level+. No. But warping does.

What are you even talking about man? youre making completely nonsensical points.

You are dodging the subject. Show me where Garmadon used Megaweapon in AP-related way.

Examples above

Manipulating space-time is not quite the same as warping it.

If the MW hasnt shown anything close to making an entire star, then the feat is an outlier.

It simply lacks any other AP feats, so we must rely on the only one that we have. It is also noted on the Outlier page itself (“if a character has few feats…”). Age manipulation, portal creation, time travel, resurrection — all of these have precisely zero (if not less) things to do with AP.

If the scythe of quake is apart of the MW, then the MW gets the feat.... what are you talking about? Is the MW weaker than the Scythe of Quake?

We are saying that you use a single Golden Weapon to debunk Golden Weapons altogether.

 

[Minaaaa]

The mergequake IS the realms trying to share the same space

they are the EFFECT of it not the cause

They need the Dragon Core to stop the MERGEQUAKE STORM, not normal mergequakes

They said they needed them to stop the mergequakes even before the storm happened.

They do not counter the fact it warped SPACE TIME

Again, just hax via examples ive shown.

Ur evidence provided of why its an outlier is the fact the GW couldn't destroy a Dragon (while its power wasn't even used) and Life Manip hax, seriously?

Dude do you not know what an outlier is? do you not know what makes something an outlier?

The GWs togheter ≠ Scythe of Quake scale

Is the MW weaker than the Scythe?

 

[Robo432343]

no staff is going to read 7 pages of back and forth
both of you aren't going to convince each other so it best to just make a new thread and leave this one alone

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Is the MW weaker than the Scythe?

No, and its exactly why half ur CRT doesn't even work. with your logic, USM beating Overlord is outlier because his base scales lower, and USM would at least scale at minimum to his base....

no staff is going to read 7 pages of back and forth
both of you aren't going to convince each other so it best to just make a new thread and leave this one alone

Probably

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

they are the EFFECT of it not the cause

They are what occurs DURING two Realms merging. Closing them = you demerged two realms. It’s like a = b. If you have b, you have a, and vice versa.

They said they needed them to stop the mergequakes even before the storm happened.

What exactly do you mean. And they can easily close it all by themselves as it was consistently shown.

Again, just hax via examples ive shown.

Again, ignored my argument. They were never stated to be able to WARP SPACE-TIME. Just manipulating time does not give a thing.

Dude do you not know what an outlier is? do you not know what makes something an outlier?

I do, and I had already refuted all of your reasoning, and you are just saying that life manipulation has anything to do with AP.

Is the MW weaker than the Scythe?

When did we imply or state that?

no staff is going to read 7 pages of back and forth
both of you aren't going to convince each other so it best to just make a new thread and leave this one alone

I can probably agree

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

No, and its exactly why half ur CRT doesn't even work. with your logic, USM beating Overlord is outlier because his base scales lower, and USM would at least scale at minimum to his base....

USM should scale to his powerless kid form aka wall level because everything above is an outlier!!!

 

[Minaaaa]

no staff is going to read 7 pages of back and forth
both of you aren't going to convince each other so it best to just make a new thread and leave this one alone

What exactly would a new thread solve?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

USM should scale to his powerless kid form aka wall level because everything above is an outlier!!!

We are debunking half the wiki with this one

 

[Lloydblitzed]

What exactly would a new thread solve?

Further counter-arguments against you

 

[Minaaaa]

Further counter-arguments against you

The only "counter arguments" brought up were not understanding the argument, not reading scans, not understanding the show and weird rules you made up. Theres no need to build up counter arugments to something that cant be countered.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The only "counter arguments" brought up were not understanding the argument, not reading scans, not understanding the show and weird rules you made up. Theres no need to build up counter arugments to something that cant be countered.

Dying to know since when outliers AP feats were based on Life Manipulation and portal creation hax? The audacity says I didn't watch the show nor read the rule is mad

 

[Minaaaa]

And now we're right back to where we started. I will not respond to arguments from yall anymore, we're gonna keep going in circles. Im gonna leave thread up for staff and others users to decide. If it gets accepted, then so be it. if it gets rejected, then so be it

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a note, Low 2-C and above has 'Significantly effecting" the Space-time continuums as a baseline for those AP ratings. Effecting them but not significantly so would be more like range. I forgot where my stance was last time for that. But I think the 4-C feat is fine.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

But I think the 4-C feat is fine.

So you disagree with the 4-C downgrade?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I forgot where my stance was last time for that.

Last time, this is what you said (from here)

Yeah, I still agree with what others said. There isn't proof the universe merging feat was done less casually than other powers and abilities. Though, I did here something about the star creation, though I am also not sure it was done with less energy then fireball abilities and what not.

Which was a reply to what Qawsef said (talking abt mergequake):

To expand on what Agnaa said, UES just means energy from on action can scale to another. For a feat to scale to AP you would still need to show that they can use an equal or greater amount of energy in an attack compared to the merging stuff.

For example if a fireball leaves you completely drained of energy, but the character can merge two universes together, the fireball has evidence of using more energy than the 2-C feat and can be used for scaling.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

And now we're right back to where we started. I will not respond to arguments from yall anymore, we're gonna keep going in circles. Im gonna leave thread up for staff and others users to decide. If it gets accepted, then so be it. if it gets rejected, then so be it

That is, the inability to properly refute the counterarguments that we have been presenting all this time, and you have been avoiding? Well, okay, why not.

 

[JJSliderman]

Just a note, Low 2-C and above has 'Significantly effecting" the Space-time continuums as a baseline for those AP ratings.

I believe the mergequake feat would qualify then, since it’s stopping the momentum of an entire universe and pushing it back to its original place.

 

[Minaaaa]

I will address all counter arguments later

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Megaquake would be a 2-C AP feat; though I never argued one way or the other about it scaling to physical stats such as striking strength or durability. And I know it does make use of a UES, but we don't necessarily downscale casual powers and abilities from final attacks without more concrete proof. Thor's God Blast doesn't downscale to his physical attacks given it's a final attack used as a last resort. I don't know how that contextually compares here, but I thought I should mention it regardless.

 

[JJSliderman]

The closing of merge quakes isn’t a final attack type thing.

Zane self-destructing to kill the golden master is an example of a godblast type move that wouldn’t scale to normal physicals, closing the merge quakes is done with the same level of power the ninja put into their basic attacks against other enemies.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The closing of merge quakes isn’t a final attack type thing.

Zane self-destructing to kill the golden master is an example of a godblast type move that wouldn’t scale to normal physicals, closing the merge quakes is done with the same level of power the ninja put into their basic attacks against other enemies.

The final attack thing isn't referring to the Mergequake feat, but to the Garmadon's final attack before passing out against Mogra

 

[MrVenomYTX]

Dude have you not read the outlier page? I already outlined the reasons why according to those.

Garmadon couldn't even beat mogra while they were both amped by Moon Tea, why in the world would he scale to him amped by the maximum amount?

Are yall just not reading anything in the thread or not understanding the points im making? If the GW and MW collided with each other and with statements saying they combined, then they combined.

When did it say they combined?
It said they collided
Colliding ≠ Combining

 

[Sparkive]

Yeah, Megaquake would be a 2-C AP feat...

I see it like this

I agree with the thread (in general), by the way, about mergequakes: why does anyone escalate to that?
When they talk about stopping them they mention that for some reason the elemental powers close it (literally for some reason, they never mention that they have enough strength to close it or something similar), even the new wind master can contribute to closing it despite not have training or scaling, it is pure hax (maybe hax Low 2-C/2-C but Hax),

Lloydblitzed:​

Wind Master had the help of 2 guys who consistanly stops mergequakes on their own and Nya....

But you can't split Low 2-C, if she contributes even a small part then the feat is Low 2-C
In order to assume that she doesn't scale, it is assumed that affecting these mergequakes does not necessarily make you Low 2-C (which is obviously accepted by you, otherwise you wouldn't be taking her out of scaling) which gives me room to suggest (not confirm, just to suggest) that maybe it is not necessary to be Low 2-C in Ap to be able to affect the mergequakes

Lloydblitzed:​

again, how is stopping the fusion of Low 2-C structures hax?

TheOrangeGuy09:​

I have no clue why this should be Hax, though.

Because (as far as I understand) some abilities or resistances may have their own level, in this case I am suggesting that just their limited space manipulation be Low 2-C and nothing more.
I don't like to do this, but I can link other verses as an example:

• For example Sonic in Base has some 4-D resistances
• Any High tier Toon has the ability to affect 5-D even if they are 3-D or 2-D

In short, I think only the limited space manipulation of the elemental powers should be Low 2-C until better feats appear


_______
By the way Lloyd, you denied the argument of mine on the basis that I should not use examples from other verses

Lloydblitzed:
Doesn't apply to Ninjago, ur using a whole different verse for your reasoning

So why have you done it several times in the thread, the way I said was idiot to do?

Why? I'm not telling you "look, this verse does it, so it's the same here" but rather "this wiki sometimes accepts that some abilities and resistances are higher than the character tier, take 2 examples that I'm not lying" I'm not that idiot

Just for the sake of your argument, don't come with the taunts of "if we do this then Goku wouldn't be 2-C, or this one wouldn't be, or so we degrade half the wiki" it doesn't help your argument and it's annoying.


Also, are you arguing that making changes in time is a universal feat? why? At best it is a chain reaction, you cannot use it to claim consistency in the feats

For everyone, having comments only saying "I have debunked everything that the creator of the thread has said" or vice versa not only fills a thread that is already long, but is... disrespectful and stupid, of course you will think that you are right and you have debunked the other, does not mean that you really did it

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

In short, I think only the limited space manipulation of the elemental powers should be Low 2-C until better feats appear

Demerging two space-times is 2-C AP feat

_______
By the way Lloyd, you denied the argument of mine on the basis that I should not use examples from other verses. So why have you done it several times in the thread, the way I said was idiot to do?

I am not Lloyd, but you used the mechanics from another verse. It’s like comparing KI mechanics to other verses mechanics. That’s the difference.

Just for the sake of your argument, don't come with the taunts of "if we do this then Goku wouldn't be 2-C, or this one wouldn't be, or so we degrade half the wiki" it doesn't help your argument and it's annoying.

We are making examples to make it easier to understand, and logics in those cases actually works.

Also, are you arguing that making changes in time is a universal feat? why? At best it is a chain reaction, you cannot use it to claim consistency in the feats

We are not though? We are arguing that WARPING it is Universal Level+ AP.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I see it like this
In short, I think only the limited space manipulation of the elemental powers should be Low 2-C until better feats appear

Demerging 2 Low 2-C structures is a 2-C feat

 

[Sparkive]

I am not Lloyd, but you used the mechanics from another verse. It’s like comparing KI mechanics to other verses mechanics. That’s the difference.

I'm not telling you "look, this verse does it, so it's the same here" but rather "this wiki sometimes accepts that some abilities and resistances are higher than the character tier, take 2 examples that I'm not lying" I'm not that idiot

compare it to "under that logic half of the wiki would be dowgrade" or similar, in more than one comment

 

[Lloydblitzed]

compare it to "under that logic half of the wiki would be dowgrade" or similar, in more than one comment

U have yet to explain how the Mergequake feat isn't affecting the Realms, and your Master of Wind argument of "little experience" is actually bad because the new Merge born EMs had their powers for YEARS before the events of Episode 5 (Ep 1 has a 2 years+ timeskip)

This def does not look like she had little to no experience in using her powers and fighting

 

[Lloydblitzed]

When they talk about stopping them they mention that for some reason the elemental powers close it (literally for some reason, they never mention that they have enough strength to close it or something similar)

Why would they not have enough strength to close it off (Not Lloyd closing one alone)? and the fact EP can close them does not matter at all here

 

[Lloydblitzed]

In short, I think only the limited space manipulation of the elemental powers should be Low 2-C until better feats appear

The Realms in question themselves are affected, not only its space

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

compare it to "under that logic half of the wiki would be dowgrade" or similar, in more than one comment

If you simply say that the higher-scaling feats are outlier because previous showcases of HAX (NOT EVEN AP) are not on that same level, then it would downgrade a lot of characters. And “half of the wiki” is clearly a hyperbole for a joke, we genuinely had never counted.
And seriously, again, what were you expecting from Garmadon to do? Create star-sized Soto? Use Time Manipulation to somehow show Stat Level? Like, really, OP just says HAX = AP although these feats are not even supposed to be quantified by Tiering System.

 

[Sparkive]

Demerging 2 Low 2-C structures is a 2-C feat

Kai blows fire at the mergequakes and they close
Nia and the wind girl could help close it by throwing water and wind respectively.
At best they are a side effect coming from elemental powers, I really have a hard time seeing how we can convert that to Ap
My whole argument is based on the fact that perhaps only a portion of all their hax can do things at that power level, especially when the ninjas themselves don't know why they can shut them down, and Lloyd attributes the power to do so to elemental powers, meaning that you can affect them as long as you have said powers.

Why would they not have enough strength to close it off (Not Lloyd closing one alone)? and the fact EP can close them does not matter at all here

From my point of view, the fact that it is about the Ap is not the obvious absumption, but what needs proof to demonstrate
So I ask back,
Why would they have the power to stop them if they were Ap? if they never did anything close before or after

Master of Wind argument of "little experience" is actually bad because the new Merge born EMs had their powers for YEARS before the events of Episode 5 (Ep 1 has a 2 years+ timeskip)

This def does not look like she had little to no experience in using her powers and fighting

You sent me a link to her flying and throwing air, it doesn't tell me much, plus she probably had a lot of time, but she denied the powers, she believed that acting would get them banished, why would she train? Why would she be at the level of ninjas who have been training longer?
And that's not even necessary, where do they say she did it?
Not that it's really important

The Realms in question themselves are affected, not only its space

I'm saying limited space manipulation only because that's how it's treated in the profiles to be able to affect Mergequakes. Don't focus on that

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Kai blows fire at the mergequakes and they close
Nia and the wind girl could help close it by throwing water and wind respectively.
At best they are a side effect coming from elemental powers, I really have a hard time seeing how we can convert that to Ap

Because they, once again, demerge Two Realms… that’s an AP feat, not hax. You can have fire attacks at any level of Tiering System, it is not just “side effect”.

My whole argument is based on the fact that perhaps only a portion of all their hax can do things at that power level

First of all, again, not hax. Secondly, it is their normal attacks that can do that. Thirdly, it scales to them physically via UES.

especially when the ninjas themselves don't know why they can shut them down, and Lloyd attributes the power to do so to elemental powers, meaning that you can affect them as long as you have said powers.

He just says “Elemental Powers can shut them down”, because it’s the only thing he saw at that point that could close them. And it’s not really contradicting anything, Wu didn’t explain anything about Merge and its effects, so it’s pretty obvious they would be confused at first.

From my point of view, the fact that it is about the Ap is not the obvious absumption, but what needs proof to demonstrate

Literally they shut it down via their raw powers. Or do you want them to say something like “Oh no, it’s not my powers affecting space, I am doing it because how strong I am!”? We saw the feat (demerging two Realms), why would you need any additional confirmation?

So I ask back,
Why would they have the power to stop them if they were Ap? if they never did anything close before or after

Are you saying it's outlier too right now?

You sent me a link to her flying and throwing air, it doesn't tell me much, plus she probably had a lot of time, but she denied the powers, she believed that acting would get them banished, why would she train?

She trained it in a way she could easily fly in the air.

Why would she be at the level of ninjas who have been training longer?

She has never displayed closing Mergequakes by herself, so we don’t know how much she even contributed to closing that said Realm.

And that's not even necessary, where do they say she did it?

Because it is obvious? Ninjas in the beginning couldn’t handle their elements normally, and she just straight up flies and casually uses it.

I'm saying limited space manipulation only because that's how it's treated in the profiles to be able to affect Mergequakes. Don't focus on that

okay then

 

[Sparkive]

If you simply say that the higher-scaling feats are outlier because previous showcases of HAX (NOT EVEN AP) are not on that same level, then it would downgrade a lot of characters. And “half of the wiki” is clearly a hyperbole for a joke, we genuinely had never counted.
And seriously, again, what were you expecting from Garmadon to do? Create star-sized Soto? Use Time Manipulation to somehow show Stat Level? Like, really, OP just says HAX = AP although these feats are not even supposed to be quantified by Tiering System.

Yes and no, although I must say that the logic of using Hax feats to prove that an Ap feat does not work seems questionable to me.
(I remember Garmadon getting tired doing some of those hax, so I imagine that could be why, I mean, reviving something is clearly inferior to creating a star.)
But no, "if this were like that, this other completely unrelated verse would be like that" is the clear example given when they tell you not to use things from one verse to another.
It's not that it matters too much, just call out Lloydblitzed hypocrisy for a moment, it's not something that should go beyond a comment

By the way, I don't want to reread the thread, can you please quickly explain to me about the feat of warping time? I think I didn't understand it because I went through the comments quickly.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

no staff is going to read 7 pages of back and forth
both of you aren't going to convince each other so it best to just make a new thread and leave this one alone

I would've

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Kai blows fire at the mergequakes and they close
Nia and the wind girl could help close it by throwing water and wind respectively.
At best they are a side effect coming from elemental powers, I really have a hard time seeing how we can convert that to Ap
My whole argument is based on the fact that perhaps only a portion of all their hax can do things at that power level, especially when the ninjas themselves don't know why they can shut them down, and Lloyd attributes the power to do so to elemental powers, meaning that you can affect them as long as you have said powers.

"the ninjas themselves don't know why they can shut them down, and Lloyd attributes the power to do so to elemental powers, meaning that you can affect them as long as you have said powers."
Source Power can stop a higher level of simple mergequakes, its not limited to Elemental Powers, and just because they could do it with Elemental Power doesn't downgrade the feat at all. Only Golden Power can beat the Overlord, does that mean USM and Golden Ultra Dragon don't scale to 2-C anymore because its their Golden Power who allows them to do that?
You are also forgetting Elemental Powers are a UES, so your EP argument fails

• Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Yes and no, although I must say that the logic of using Hax feats to prove that an Ap feat does not work seems questionable to me.
(I remember Garmadon getting tired doing some of those hax, so I imagine that could be why, I mean, reviving something is clearly inferior to creating a star.)

A good point, but it was specifically him using Megaweapon’s “wish-granting”; when he used them as Four Golden Weapons to kill Great Devourer, he was not tired at all.

But no, "if this were like that, this other completely unrelated verse would be like that" is the clear example given when they tell you not to use things from one verse to another.

What I ultimately meant is that it is common for the verse to scale from a single feat/calc despite the fact that if you ”ignore” that feat, the verse would be significantly lower.

It's not that it matters too much, just call out Lloydblitzed hypocrisy for a moment, it's not something that should go beyond a comment

Fine

By the way, I don't want to reread the thread, can you please quickly explain to me about the feat of warping time? I think I didn't understand it because I went through the comments quickly.

Zane stated that Green Time Blade can warp the very fabric of the space-time. They even emphasize that it is very powerful, and is supposed to be though.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I would've

Average massive Ninjago Debunk CRT