Ninjago Attack Potency update

[Jirachi_the_real_93]

Are you referring to what Garmadon said in Weapons of Destiny? Because if we're talking about the same thing, I don't really agree. This is clearly hyperbole to exaggerate the power of the 4 GW combined. Yk how really cool its to say like: "I can finally create a portal in space-time, I'm too strong for fiction". Imo, the Underworld itself is probably the most contradictory realm if you assume it's a different space-time continuum. I have already given the reasons previously (Btw, iirc in that episode the dragons reach the Underworld just by going underground). However, if you don't want to consider it hyperbole, it is still a statement contradicted by several feats. One is as good as the other.

"Just bc they are accessible via gateways isn't proving anything".
Well if they are physically connected, then they are not isolated universes with their own continuum, so I think it's quite relevant.

For Twitter statements, I have already explained why they should not be used as a primary source and how this may not be the case. Plus I can definitely say it's not reliable. Are you familiar with the concept of "death of the author"? the meaning of a work does not depend on the author's intentions, but on the reader's experiences. Once a work has been created, the author loses control of its meaning, and the responsibility passes to the reader.

Additionally, "Can u prove its unreliable?".
Yes, using the primary canon of the work, not some stupid statement on twitter. I already explained it.

For mergequakes, there are A and B merging together at the same location X, so A and B annihilate each other. The extent of destruction is proportional to the magnitude of the mergequakes. It is a process that takes time and does not have the power needed to destroy the universe in the true sense of the term. I can destroy a door, certainly not in one blow though, that's the problem. Then, when they say things like, "They affect the realms" they mean that parts of those realms are slowly being erased due to spatial imbalances created by Coalescence, that can't even be counted as a significant influence. Furthermore, another problem I have is the reason why the reclosing of mergequakes is related to the attack potency of the person who performed this action. These are still the main problems I have with mergequakes.

i agree with you

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Are you referring to what Garmadon said in Weapons of Destiny? Because if we're talking about the same thing, I don't really agree. This is clearly hyperbole to exaggerate the power of the 4 GW combined. Yk how really cool its to say like: "I can finally create a portal in space-time, I'm too strong for fiction". Imo, the Underworld itself is probably the most contradictory realm if you assume it's a different space-time continuum. I have already given the reasons previously (Btw, iirc in that episode the dragons reach the Underworld just by going underground). However, if you don't want to consider it hyperbole, it is still a statement contradicted by several feats. One is as good as the other.

"Just bc they are accessible via gateways isn't proving anything".
Well if they are physically connected, then they are not isolated universes with their own continuum, so I think it's quite relevant.

For Twitter statements, I have already explained why they should not be used as a primary source and how this may not be the case. Plus I can definitely say it's not reliable. Are you familiar with the concept of "death of the author"? the meaning of a work does not depend on the author's intentions, but on the reader's experiences. Once a work has been created, the author loses control of its meaning, and the responsibility passes to the reader.

Additionally, "Can u prove its unreliable?".
Yes, using the primary canon of the work, not some stupid statement on twitter. I already explained it.

For mergequakes, there are A and B merging together at the same location X, so A and B annihilate each other. The extent of destruction is proportional to the magnitude of the mergequakes. It is a process that takes time and does not have the power needed to destroy the universe in the true sense of the term. I can destroy a door, certainly not in one blow though, that's the problem. Then, when they say things like, "They affect the realms" they mean that parts of those realms are slowly being erased due to spatial imbalances created by Coalescence, that can't even be counted as a significant influence. Furthermore, another problem I have is the reason why the reclosing of mergequakes is related to the attack potency of the person who performed this action. These are still the main problems I have with mergequakes.

Explain why they needed to go throught the Ethereal Divide to travel to Underworld, to open a rift to the Departed Realm, to reach Djinjago, to reach the Never Realm, and the First Realm too? Tommy also stated that his words should be reliable only when the series does not contradict it. We litterally see the Golden Weapons form a rift in Space time too. These gateways are not Physically connect.
Mergequakes have been stated multiple times to be able to affect the realms and even destroy them if not stopped (Context: The world is clearly referring to the Merged Realms)
Stop assuming everything is a hyperbole too, u have no relevant argument to contradict the author's words. It even follows the statement guidelines from VSBW

 

[Alus83]

Explain why they needed to go throught the Ethereal Divide to travel to Underworld, to open a rift to the Departed Realm, to reach Djinjago, to reach the Never Realm, and the First Realm too? Tommy also stated that his words should be reliable only when the series does not contradict it. We litterally see the Golden Weapons form a rift in Space time too. These gateways are not Physically connect.
Mergequakes have been stated multiple times to be able to affect the realms and even destroy them if not stopped (Context: The world is clearly referring to the Merged Realms)
Stop assuming everything is a hyperbole too, u have no relevant argument to contradict the author's words. It even follows the statement guidelines from VSBW

Well, using portals for traveling doesn't imply that each universe is a different space-time continuum; this can happen for various reasons. It could be due to narrative resources they provide, for the sake of simplicity or other motivations of that kind. Even before the Coalescence event, the realms were physically connected. Now, I don't want to go through all the cases again unless it's necessary later on, as it might just create confusion. In King of Shadows, Master Wu wanted to take the Sword of Fire to the Underworld. Literally, he sits on a rock and lets himself be carried by the lava from the Temple of Fire. Later, in Weapon of Destiny, we see how this incredible and exciting journey on a rock concludes with Master Wu arriving in the Underworld. Additionally, the term "space-time rift" can also refer to a portal in space-time, so it can make you travel through the space-time. So even if EVERY portal were a space-time rift (which they obviously aren't), it wouldn't necessarily imply that each realm is an isolated universe, as it may be the case that they can be used to travel to various realms in the same continuum.

However, the screenshot you sent doesn't discuss how one should evaluate a specific statement from an author but rather how one should consider a character's statement within a verse. Even if it did, I've provided explanations multiple times for why I think assuming the existence of 16 continuums is contradictory using the main canon, so I believe I've given reasons for why the author contradicts themselves.

As for the issue of mergequakes, I think it's pointless to discuss it, at least for now. L2C scaling is based on previous points, so I would say let's set aside this topic for now. Also, because I believe it's the most challenging topic to address, given that it relies much more on the perception of the context of certain statements.

Btw, I consider many statements as hyperboles because it's very common to use figurative language to exaggerate concepts. But if that statement is not truly demonstrated or even contradicted, I tend to think it's a hyperbole. If the word 'hyperbole' bothers you, then I'll start using 'contradicted'; one is as good as the other for the purpose of this discussion.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Because there's an important aspect: Relevant size.

A 5th Dimensional axis can separate even an infinite amount of 4D spaces without itself being of infinite size, because all the 4D spaces would need is a vaguely different 5th spatial dimension. Or in other words:

• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0000x)
• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0001x)
• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0002x)
• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0003x)
• etc

To be 5D you have to prove the 4D spaces embeds an infinitely small point, which hasn't been proven.

For the thread we already accept Tier 2 so I guess that's fine, but Tier 4 you would need to prove that they have some form of UES since that's a creation feat and wouldn't strictly scale to AP on its own.

The Golden Weapons energy instanly kills those who are too weak to handle their power. This did not happen with Cole, who tanked an explosion from the Golden Weapons (as shown earlier in the CRT) and he was also able to hold the Mega Weapon (which is the 4 golden weapons combined) without dying from its energy (Keep in mind weaker people instanly dies the second they touch the weapons). As explained earlier, Lloyd has the power of the 4 Golden Weapons and can use it to create beams of energy, meaning the weapon's powers can be used in a Destructive way too

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Golden Weapons energy instanly kills those who are too weak to handle their power. This did not happen with Cole, who tanked an explosion from the Golden Weapons (as shown earlier in the CRT) and he was also able to hold the Mega Weapon (which is the 4 golden weapons combined) without dying from its energy (Keep in mind weaker people instanly dies the second they touch the weapons). As explained earlier, Lloyd has the power of the 4 Golden Weapons and can use it to create beams of energy, meaning the weapon's powers can be used in a Destructive way too

None of that proves a UES. You have to justify why a creation feat should scale to AP like the page explains.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Well, using portals for traveling doesn't imply that each universe is a different space-time continuum; this can happen for various reasons. It could be due to narrative resources they provide, for the sake of simplicity or other motivations of that kind. Even before the Coalescence event, the realms were physically connected. Now, I don't want to go through all the cases again unless it's necessary later on, as it might just create confusion. In King of Shadows, Master Wu wanted to take the Sword of Fire to the Underworld. Literally, he sits on a rock and lets himself be carried by the lava from the Temple of Fire. Later, in Weapon of Destiny, we see how this incredible and exciting journey on a rock concludes with Master Wu arriving in the Underworld. Additionally, the term "space-time rift" can also refer to a portal in space-time, so it can make you travel through the space-time. So even if EVERY portal were a space-time rift (which they obviously aren't), it wouldn't necessarily imply that each realm is an isolated universe, as it may be the case that they can be used to travel to various realms in the same continuum.

However, the screenshot you sent doesn't discuss how one should evaluate a specific statement from an author but rather how one should consider a character's statement within a verse. Even if it did, I've provided explanations multiple times for why I think assuming the existence of 16 continuums is contradictory using the main canon, so I believe I've given reasons for why the author contradicts themselves.

As for the issue of mergequakes, I think it's pointless to discuss it, at least for now. L2C scaling is based on previous points, so I would say let's set aside this topic for now. Also, because I believe it's the most challenging topic to address, given that it relies much more on the perception of the context of certain statements.

Btw, I consider many statements as hyperboles because it's very common to use figurative language to exaggerate concepts. But if that statement is not truly demonstrated or even contradicted, I tend to think it's a hyperbole. If the word 'hyperbole' bothers you, then I'll start using 'contradicted'; one is as good as the other for the purpose of this discussion.

Gateways are likely portals in the Ninjago verse, as it was shown in the same pilots that they needed portals to travel to the other realms. Its also clear that each Realms are seperated by the Ethereal Divide, as the ninjas use it to travel to other Realms in every other seasons. They are clearly not part of the same space time continuum, and the Ethereal Divide shows it

 

[Lloydblitzed]

None of that proves a UES. You have to justify why a creation feat should scale to AP like the page explains.

Another set of 4 golden weapons were shown to be able to destroy the Mega Weapons (who created a star), so it should scale to AP too. Its also said that only objects of equal power can destroy the Mega Weapons (which is the same thing as the 4 Golden Weapons), which means they can create a star and the same power can be used in a destructive way

 

[Qawsedf234]

able to destroy the Mega Weapons (who created a star), so it should scale to AP too.

Read the UES page. That isn't evidence for scaling creation to AP.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Read the UES page. That isn't evidence for scaling creation to AP.

Alrigth, I will, but also, according to the Tiering System, wouldn't the feat still scale to Star

 

[Qawsedf234]

Alrigth, I will, but also, according to the Tiering System, wouldn't the feat still scale to Star

Its a 4-C creation feat

Attack Potency Scaling​

Note that this only applies to the character's capacity to harm other characters if their Creation is connected to their other abilities; for example, it can be reasoned that a mage who can conjure a city with little mana can destroy one with the same amount of mana, however a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction.

Which is why I said you have to prove UES for it to scale to AP. Otherwise its just "X, 4-C with creation" like with MCU Odin

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Its a 4-C creation feat

Which is why I said you have to prove UES for it to scale to AP. Otherwise its just "X, 4-C with creation" like with MCU Odin

I see now, makes more sense.
Well...
Lloyd has the power of the 4 Golden Weapons, which means his AP and Creation feats would be linked to the weapons and vice-versa
We'll use this rule

Since Lloyd AP = 4 Golden Weapons, he would use the same energy for attacks (like here) used for creation too. Since the Weapon's powers are the same as Lloyd's, it would be safe to say the weapons can be used for attacks. This is also supported by the fact Lloyd can fight off Garmadon, who is capable of wisthanding the same amount of power (more precisly, he can wisthand the power of the 4 Golden Weapons, and fought an even stronger version of that Garmadon). In short, The Golden Weapons would use the same amount of energy for attacks as Lloyd do, and vice verca for Creation too

I'll do more research for the UES and send more stuff if what cited above is still not enough

 

[Dark-Carioca]

I'm reconsidering some of what I've said in my previous post, another Ninjago fan (trying to get an account here) told me that the "star" being argued about regarding its creation in the OP was actually a comet... which, of course, isn't a star.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I'm reconsidering some of what I've said in my previous post, another Ninjago fan (trying to get an account here) told me that the "star" being argued about regarding its creation in the OP was actually a comet... which, of course, isn't a star.

This statement cannot be trusted as other statements and the show itself contradicts it. It didn't create a comet, but clearly a star. The weapons fell on a comet later on after creating the Star (the website u linked says it too)

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

Tommy says it’s a star so there ya go I suppose

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

Well, using portals for traveling doesn't imply that each universe is a different space-time continuum; this can happen for various reasons. It could be due to narrative resources they provide, for the sake of simplicity or other motivations of that kind. Even before the Coalescence event, the realms were physically connected. Now, I don't want to go through all the cases again unless it's necessary later on, as it might just create confusion. In King of Shadows, Master Wu wanted to take the Sword of Fire to the Underworld. Literally, he sits on a rock and lets himself be carried by the lava from the Temple of Fire. Later, in Weapon of Destiny, we see how this incredible and exciting journey on a rock concludes with Master Wu arriving in the Underworld. Additionally, the term "space-time rift" can also refer to a portal in space-time, so it can make you travel through the space-time. So even if EVERY portal were a space-time rift (which they obviously aren't), it wouldn't necessarily imply that each realm is an isolated universe, as it may be the case that they can be used to travel to various realms in the same continuum.

However, the screenshot you sent doesn't discuss how one should evaluate a specific statement from an author but rather how one should consider a character's statement within a verse. Even if it did, I've provided explanations multiple times for why I think assuming the existence of 16 continuums is contradictory using the main canon, so I believe I've given reasons for why the author contradicts themselves.

As for the issue of mergequakes, I think it's pointless to discuss it, at least for now. L2C scaling is based on previous points, so I would say let's set aside this topic for now. Also, because I believe it's the most challenging topic to address, given that it relies much more on the perception of the context of certain statements.

Btw, I consider many statements as hyperboles because it's very common to use figurative language to exaggerate concepts. But if that statement is not truly demonstrated or even contradicted, I tend to think it's a hyperbole. If the word 'hyperbole' bothers you, then I'll start using 'contradicted'; one is as good as the other for the purpose of this discussion.

Can you prove its a hyperbole? What you are diving into is author intent and how we use death of author. and death of author is not a fallacy at all. if we apply death of author all author statements are null and void for all verses but thats not how it works is it? because people here don't know how death of author works at all. if you invoke death of author every verse on here with word of god scans as you call them or author scans have to be thust invalid because thats how death of author works. Either you have author statements or you don't. Authors are gonna contradict themselfs this isn't the issue we can call them outliers to the show but it doesn't discredit what we are showing using them. The scans we are using is just supporting evidence for the scaling.

Bruh. wdym contractionary to the main canon >_> also there isn't 16 realms, the show only says 16 but there was actually 17 realms. and even if we just for some reason go with the 16 realm statement those said realms have a time-space even if you are just being dumb and coping they still have a container holding those said bodies with a hypervolume. And the ethereal divide is above them anyways. in fact it should be above the merge in a higher dimension but which again i am holding off on saying here. I've said this multiple times if it has a time-space it just natively is 4D unless you wanna lie about how time-spaces work. even if its size was planetary it still be 4D this just sounds kinda copium on your part. Even on here we have a timeline which also holds all 16 realms and the divide which is above it anyways which should count towards significant 5D at the very least. cause it be holding a insignificant 5D axis. Which again we should do a separate CRT for 5D.

also the realms pre merge were not connected in the way you think. Take what DR shows with the circles there more like spheres. Let me use spheres for this. Each sphere is the container the dragon cores keep the realms from colliding into each other which includes the freaking space-time like it includes the freaking manifold itself. like the sphere = manifold of the realm. and Space-time rifts are wormholes in most instances in ninjago and in order for wormholes to exist the container of the realms has to forcefully be 4D via extrinsic curvature and unless you have some magical scan which just dunks on something no one has been able to disprove a highly doubt you can contest that. So if you wanna say those were space-time rifts which i feel some are and some aren't which is fine but it being a space-time rift means its a wormhole of some kind which just natively are 4D. If we need more context we can use the extra-dimensional statement to back up the fact the manifold is natively 4D if you wanna cope about Universal models. but natively all Universal Models are 4D unless said otherwise. And we have a time-space in ninjago, and we have space-time in all the other realms, those other realms are kept separate per merge which just makes it a Low multi cosmology at the very least per merge.

if we just gonna ignore blatant stuff whats the point of making CRTs? like at this point like i see it as like this. The low multi stuff only goes to FSM, lloyd, overlord and source dragons atm. which doesn't make it inconsistent. but if you disagree with the scaling where do they scale then? then

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

I'm reconsidering some of what I've said in my previous post, another Ninjago fan (trying to get an account here) told me that the "star" being argued about regarding its creation in the OP was actually a comet... which, of course, isn't a star.

That website legit says it makes a star and then later fell onto a comet.... (also thats not evidence, thats just the ninjago fandom which are free to edit sources and not from the show)

 

[Dinoanime7]

I agree with this

 

[Alus83]

Can you prove its a hyperbole? What you are diving into is author intent and how we use death of author. and death of author is not a fallacy at all. if we apply death of author all author statements are null and void for all verses but thats not how it works is it? because people here don't know how death of author works at all. if you invoke death of author every verse on here with word of god scans as you call them or author scans have to be thust invalid because thats how death of author works. Either you have author statements or you don't. Authors are gonna contradict themselfs this isn't the issue we can call them outliers to the show but it doesn't discredit what we are showing using them. The scans we are using is just supporting evidence for the scaling.

Bruh. wdym contractionary to the main canon >_> also there isn't 16 realms, the show only says 16 but there was actually 17 realms. and even if we just for some reason go with the 16 realm statement those said realms have a time-space even if you are just being dumb and coping they still have a container holding those said bodies with a hypervolume. And the ethereal divide is above them anyways. in fact it should be above the merge in a higher dimension but which again i am holding off on saying here. I've said this multiple times if it has a time-space it just natively is 4D unless you wanna lie about how time-spaces work. even if its size was planetary it still be 4D this just sounds kinda copium on your part. Even on here we have a timeline which also holds all 16 realms and the divide which is above it anyways which should count towards significant 5D at the very least. cause it be holding a insignificant 5D axis. Which again we should do a separate CRT for 5D.

also the realms pre merge were not connected in the way you think. Take what DR shows with the circles there more like spheres. Let me use spheres for this. Each sphere is the container the dragon cores keep the realms from colliding into each other which includes the freaking space-time like it includes the freaking manifold itself. like the sphere = manifold of the realm. and Space-time rifts are wormholes in most instances in ninjago and in order for wormholes to exist the container of the realms has to forcefully be 4D via extrinsic curvature and unless you have some magical scan which just dunks on something no one has been able to disprove a highly doubt you can contest that. So if you wanna say those were space-time rifts which i feel some are and some aren't which is fine but it being a space-time rift means its a wormhole of some kind which just natively are 4D. If we need more context we can use the extra-dimensional statement to back up the fact the manifold is natively 4D if you wanna cope about Universal models. but natively all Universal Models are 4D unless said otherwise. And we have a time-space in ninjago, and we have space-time in all the other realms, those other realms are kept separate per merge which just makes it a Low multi cosmology at the very least per merge.

if we just gonna ignore blatant stuff whats the point of making CRTs? like at this point like i see it as like this. The low multi stuff only goes to FSM, lloyd, overlord and source dragons atm. which doesn't make it inconsistent. but if you disagree with the scaling where do they scale then? then

I provided arguments for which it might be hyperbole. I used the concept of the author's death to explain why it would be appropriate not to consider certain authorial statements valid, especially when the work itself contradicts those statements. By "main canon", I mean the original material of the work, which is certainly not Twitter. If there are verses that rely solely on author statements without them being truly consistent with their story, then yes, personally, I consider those scalings unreliable, but I don't think that's important.

I apologize; I made a mistake in writing; I know there are 17. When they say there are 16 in the show, they usually don't count Ninjago.

Those 16 realms definitely have a spacetime; I don't understand the argument of hyper-volume, though. The cosmology makes sense even if you don't assume this.

A single spacetime contains these 16 realms, which dimensionally are 3D; there is no hyper-volume because there is no higher dimension enclosing this spacetime; everything that exists is within a single spacetime. Every example you gave can also work within a single spacetime. I just don't see how they can be different continuums if it has never been stated or strongly implied, especially if there are minor problems or contradictions in the context that lead me to think otherwise.

The Ethereal Divide has never been said to be superior or has never demonstrated to be qualitatively superior. As for the statement "extradimensional," I don't think I understood you. The only statement of this kind I remember said "interdimensional," which is completely different.

However, I don't think I fully understood the example of the spheres. I don't want to contest it if I'm not sure I understood what you mean; I don't want us to waste time due to a misunderstanding.

I never said it's inconsistent for various characters to scale to that tier. The fact that I disagree with the scaling doesn't put me in a position to say how much I think they scale. I am here to discuss the CRT topic and possibly come to a conclusion.

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

Many of the points you said are similar to those of the other guy, so in order not to rewrite everything again I recommend you just read the reply message I wrote to the other guy. The only thing I would like to clarify is the third point: the burden of proof in this case is yours, you are the one who must prove that he did it with attack potency. In the thread it is said "This feat scales the attack potency because ... (non-existent explanation), I instead replied "Look, in this context there can be more possible solutions (+ argument to support my point)", here you are to have to prove that point, I don't have to do anything here.

none of this dismiss what i said.

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

I provided arguments for which it might be hyperbole. I used the concept of the author's death to explain why it would be appropriate not to consider certain authorial statements valid, especially when the work itself contradicts those statements. By "main canon", I mean the original material of the work, which is certainly not Twitter. If there are verses that rely solely on author statements without them being truly consistent with their story, then yes, personally, I consider those scalings unreliable, but I don't think that's important.

I apologize; I made a mistake in writing; I know there are 17. When they say there are 16 in the show, they usually don't count Ninjago.

Those 16 realms definitely have a spacetime; I don't understand the argument of hyper-volume, though. The cosmology makes sense even if you don't assume this.

A single spacetime contains these 16 realms, which dimensionally are 3D; there is no hyper-volume because there is no higher dimension enclosing this spacetime; everything that exists is within a single spacetime. Every example you gave can also work within a single spacetime. I just don't see how they can be different continuums if it has never been stated or strongly implied, especially if there are minor problems or contradictions in the context that lead me to think otherwise.

The Ethereal Divide has never been said to be superior or has never demonstrated to be qualitatively superior. As for the statement "extradimensional," I don't think I understood you. The only statement of this kind I remember said "interdimensional," which is completely different.

However, I don't think I fully understood the example of the spheres. I don't want to contest it if I'm not sure I understood what you mean; I don't want us to waste time due to a misunderstanding.

I never said it's inconsistent for various characters to scale to that tier. The fact that I disagree with the scaling doesn't put me in a position to say how much I think they scale. I am here to discuss the CRT topic and possibly come to a conclusion.

i think i miss understood you

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

Because there's an important aspect: Relevant size.

A 5th Dimensional axis can separate even an infinite amount of 4D spaces without itself being of infinite size, because all the 4D spaces would need is a vaguely different 5th spatial dimension. Or in other words:

• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0000x)
• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0001x)
• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0002x)
• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0003x)
• etc

To be 5D you have to prove the 4D spaces embeds an infinitely small point, which hasn't been proven.

For the thread we already accept Tier 2 so I guess that's fine, but Tier 4 you would need to prove that they have some form of UES since that's a creation feat and wouldn't strictly scale to AP on its own.

Whats the difference of it being a significant 5D axis and a insignificant 5D container?

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Guys, chill out. I feel like this thread goes out of control.

In fact, one thing I want to add.

The Ethereal Divide has never been said to be superior or has never demonstrated to be qualitatively superior. As for the statement "extradimensional," I don't think I understood you. The only statement of this kind I remember said "interdimensional," which is completely different.

Yes, it's true that ED was never said to have any higher nature over the Realms, but in fact you are wrong in your second statement.

Ethereal Divide was called an interdimensional ethereal realm by Zane in Season 11, when Ninja were trapped there for some time. So yes, it's definitely acts as separator for 17 Realms (and now just surrounds Merged Realms)

Edit: I doubt ED even spatial in nature tbh. It's too smooth and unknown.

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

Sorry for the late answer, but I've been busy today.

1. From what I understand you are claiming that they are 4D because you believe that each realm is a different space-time continuum, therefore mergequakes also affect time rather than just a spatial level, as I stated in the previous message. So I'll answer the second point straight away.

2. I don't think it's right to take statements made by Twitter and treat them as a Word of God. Usually statements that don't come from the main canon need to be treated a little differently, certainly not using them as main evidence. However, the first statement does not imply that each realm is a different space-time continuum, even in our own universe there are places where time passes more or less quickly. In the second, however, he talks about Jay's wish, and whether at the end of S6 it influenced Chima or not. He replies that the events of Skybound did not affect other realms, but if the events that occurred have no influence on other realms, then it is logical to think so. Honestly, I didn't see it as a message with the intent of explaining how the various realms are actually divided. Finally I would like to mention that Tommy Andreasen has made some minor contradictions over the years, so I think it is wrong to 100% believe his words without using primary canon to support them.

Furthermore, I believe that they are not different space-time continuums, and one of the main reasons is that there is no need for space-time travel to go from one realm to another. Some examples would be the Fire Temple, which is so close to the Underworld that you can physically travel from one side to the other, the Blind Man's Eye which is a direct gateway to the CK Realm, the Mountain of Madness within the KoM which is a direct portal to Ninjago and so on. Most of the time other methods are also used, such as dimensional gates, I am aware of this, but even the latter are never explained or treated as "space-time gates".

3. This conclusion of yours follows from the other points so there is no need for me to rewrite the same thing as before.

4. Yeah, they are spatial anomalies that in an indefinite time can destroy the world, interesting. If the universe were infinite then this action would take infinite time anyway.

5.My point that the term "infinity" is used hyperbolically to exaggerate the vastness of the universe. Furthermore, even if it is not necessary for scaling, in that message I wrote the things I don't agree with, and that point was one of those, therefore, even if it wasn't necessary, I still wanted to specify it.

6. Oh, my mistake, I didn't notice the clip, thanks for pointing it out.

7. When I say "3D" I obviously don't count time. However, the Ethereal Divide is not anything dimensionally higher; it is merely a place that exists between the realms and contains them, connecting them. It is never explained in depth, as far as we know it exists on the same existential plane as the other realms and is not implied to be superior to them. There may be many possible conclusions in this context, but you decided to say "yes it is 5D because it may be the case".

what? time is just not 4D. its in no theory ever stated to be the 4th spatial axis what are you even talking about? Do you even know why space-time is 4D? its because its curving into the 4th dimension which is why the native universe model we run on is 4D unless said verse states otherwise every "body" is 4D unless said verse says otherwise like roblox calling its Universe 2D for example

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

I provided arguments for which it might be hyperbole. I used the concept of the author's death to explain why it would be appropriate not to consider certain authorial statements valid, especially when the work itself contradicts those statements. By "main canon", I mean the original material of the work, which is certainly not Twitter. If there are verses that rely solely on author statements without them being truly consistent with their story, then yes, personally, I consider those scalings unreliable, but I don't think that's important.

I apologize; I made a mistake in writing; I know there are 17. When they say there are 16 in the show, they usually don't count Ninjago.

Those 16 realms definitely have a spacetime; I don't understand the argument of hyper-volume, though. The cosmology makes sense even if you don't assume this.

A single spacetime contains these 16 realms, which dimensionally are 3D; there is no hyper-volume because there is no higher dimension enclosing this spacetime; everything that exists is within a single spacetime. Every example you gave can also work within a single spacetime. I just don't see how they can be different continuums if it has never been stated or strongly implied, especially if there are minor problems or contradictions in the context that lead me to think otherwise.

The Ethereal Divide has never been said to be superior or has never demonstrated to be qualitatively superior. As for the statement "extradimensional," I don't think I understood you. The only statement of this kind I remember said "interdimensional," which is completely different.

However, I don't think I fully understood the example of the spheres. I don't want to contest it if I'm not sure I understood what you mean; I don't want us to waste time due to a misunderstanding.

I never said it's inconsistent for various characters to scale to that tier. The fact that I disagree with the scaling doesn't put me in a position to say how much I think they scale. I am here to discuss the CRT topic and possibly come to a conclusion.

"
A single spacetime contains these 16 realms, which dimensionally are 3D; there is no hyper-volume because there is no higher dimension enclosing this spacetime; everything that exists is within a single spacetime. Every example you gave can also work within a single spacetime. I just don't see how they can be different continuums if it has never been stated or strongly implied, especially if there are minor problems or contradictions in the context that lead me to think otherwise." thats blatently not how space-times work though? do you even know how space-times work >_> like at all? the insides of the realms are 3D, like matter and stuff. (well unless you get some weird instance were you get like 1-A rocks and 1-A subatomic stuff but that's a different discussion for another time. Its not in a single space-time though what are you talking about? each realm is its own dimension completely separate from ninjago it being a separate dimension means its its own container. with the divide encompassing it. What you are talking about is the timeline which not only holds the divide but all the realms. I don't think you know what even makes space-time 4D at all.

Extra-dimensional is weird it depends on the context of the verse how its used. it can make realms 4D outside space-time afk, it can also just mean nothing. Its not like solaris superdimensional statement.

what do you mean the divide hasn't show to be QS? the Merge doesn't seem to effect the divide at all from what i've seen from the merge? i've watched it twice now and it seems the divide is just not effected by the merge you just see some weird space outside the cracks in reality which is breaking space-time of the realms and forcing them into one another. Again if we doing 5D divide, and source dragons can we do this on a different CRT some other time?

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

What you are talking about is the timeline which not only holds the divide but all the realms.

Time (aka Timeline) its just reality itself.

Time is the thread that holds a fabric of reality together.

- Wu said.
So timeline shouldn't be referred here as something higher-dimensional.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Because there's an important aspect: Relevant size.

A 5th Dimensional axis can separate even an infinite amount of 4D spaces without itself being of infinite size, because all the 4D spaces would need is a vaguely different 5th spatial dimension. Or in other words:

• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0000x)
• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0001x)
• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0002x)
• (∞, ∞, ∞, ∞, 1.0003x)
• etc

To be 5D you have to prove the 4D spaces embeds an infinitely small point, which hasn't been proven.

For the thread we already accept Tier 2 so I guess that's fine, but Tier 4 you would need to prove that they have some form of UES since that's a creation feat and wouldn't strictly scale to AP on its own.

In case u still don't accept my proofs from earlier (or think its not enough), here's why the weapons would qualify for UES:

Limited Energy System
The Golden Weapons would fit this critera, as they channel the main 4 elemental powers (proof the book is canon btw). Elemental Powers are used by multiple elemental master, including those of the main 4 elements (Kai, Cole, Jay and Zane, the elemental masters of Fire, Earth, Lightning and Ice). There are obviously multiple varients of elemental powers, and Elemental Powers can use a similar amount of power with any given technique (like with the Sword of Fire being able to harm Jay in a similar way with both fireballs and with a wall of flame)

Non-Physical Energy System
Elemental powers in general have shown that all their non physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency (which would apply to the Golden Weapons too, as they use the same system). It was also shown that when they display an increase in energy/power, the potency of their powers and abilities increase as well, like when Lloyd got supercharged by the Matriach Dragon, increasing his power level and allowing him to deal more damage or when Garmadon drinked Moon Tea, restoring his powers and even making him stronger.

Universal Energy System
Elemental Powers have shown to display an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics, like when Cole entered his Spinjitzu Burst Form, allowing him to easly knock over the Skull Sorcerer which he couldn't do in base form (he also clearly show he can channel his elemental power throught his own body). Elemental power was also shown to be channeled through the user's body, like when the ninjas use their True Potential, which also boost their physical stats

As we know earlier, The Golden Weapons use the Elemental Power System, meaning they do have some type of UES, and the Star feat can be scaled to them

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Time (aka Timeline) its just reality itself.

- Wu said.
So timeline shouldn't be referred here as something higher-dimensional.

Lil correction:
Wu said: « Time is the thread that sews the fabric of the universe »

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Lil correction:
Wu said: « Time is the thread that sews the fabric of the universe »

Yea. 2-C time, my lil bro...

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Yea. 2-C time, my lil bro...

Oh I thought u were referencing that flashback scene in S7 Well mb

 

[Qawsedf234]

Whats the difference of it being a significant 5D axis and a insignificant 5D container?

Think of 3D cube. You can have a infinite 2D square within the cube. But the cube can have a finite 3rd dimension, since there's an infinite amount of numbers between any two numbers, as long as the 3rd axis has a number greater than 0, it can fit an infinite number of 2D spaces inside of it by just assigning them a different number.

It being notable in size means that axis itself is infinite or universal in size. So instead of (, , X) it's (, , ).

 

[Alus83]

what? time is just not 4D. its in no theory ever stated to be the 4th spatial axis what are you even talking about? Do you even know why space-time is 4D? its because its curving into the 4th dimension which is why the native universe model we run on is 4D unless said verse states otherwise every "body" is 4D unless said verse says otherwise like roblox calling its Universe 2D for example

Oversimplifying, time is the dimension that encompasses every event in spatial dimensions and is considered the fourth dimension. The conception of four-dimensional space-time is associated with the theory of relativity. However, your sentence doesn't make sense; your description is imprecise, and I don't think I fully understood it. "Its because its curving into the 4th dimension" lacks a subject, or are you asserting that space-time "curves" into time? Additionally, what do you mean by "curving"? I have never stated that time is 4D or even the fourth spatial axis. Either you misunderstood, or I expressed myself unclearly. If I did, please point out where, and I'll correct the message.

 

[Alus83]

"
A single spacetime contains these 16 realms, which dimensionally are 3D; there is no hyper-volume because there is no higher dimension enclosing this spacetime; everything that exists is within a single spacetime. Every example you gave can also work within a single spacetime. I just don't see how they can be different continuums if it has never been stated or strongly implied, especially if there are minor problems or contradictions in the context that lead me to think otherwise." thats blatently not how space-times work though? do you even know how space-times work >_> like at all? the insides of the realms are 3D, like matter and stuff. (well unless you get some weird instance were you get like 1-A rocks and 1-A subatomic stuff but that's a different discussion for another time. Its not in a single space-time though what are you talking about? each realm is its own dimension completely separate from ninjago it being a separate dimension means its its own container. with the divide encompassing it. What you are talking about is the timeline which not only holds the divide but all the realms. I don't think you know what even makes space-time 4D at all.

Extra-dimensional is weird it depends on the context of the verse how its used. it can make realms 4D outside space-time afk, it can also just mean nothing. Its not like solaris superdimensional statement.

what do you mean the divide hasn't show to be QS? the Merge doesn't seem to effect the divide at all from what i've seen from the merge? i've watched it twice now and it seems the divide is just not effected by the merge you just see some weird space outside the cracks in reality which is breaking space-time of the realms and forcing them into one another. Again if we doing 5D divide, and source dragons can we do this on a different CRT some other time?

"The insides of the realms are 3D, like matter and stuff. (Well, unless you get some weird instance where you get like 1-A rocks)."

What are you talking about? That's what I explained in my message; the realms are spatially 3D.

"Each realm is its own dimension completely separate from Ninjago; it being a separate dimension means it's its own container."

Here is the issue. "Each realm is its own dimension," why? I provided evidence of how they have some sort of physical connection, and each of your examples doesn't really explain how they are different continuums. I mean, it could possibly be the case, but why is it? "Means it's its own container," are you suggesting that the fact they are divided explains how they are isolated universes?

"Extra-dimensional is weird; it depends on the context of the verse how it's used."
You introduced this point; honestly, I don't know anything about it. I don't even recall a single instance in Ninjago where it's mentioned.

"What do you mean the divide hasn't shown to be QS? The Merge doesn't seem to affect the divide at all from what I've seen. I've watched it twice now, and it seems the divide is just not affected by the merge. You just see some weird space outside the cracks in reality, which is breaking space-time of the realms and forcing them into one another. Again, if we're doing 5D divide, and source dragons, can we do this on a different CRT some other time?"

This is because the Merge has influenced the realms, but the Ethereal Divide is not a realm; it's the space that surrounds and is between the realms. In fact, since the realms were united, the ED surrounds the realms. It was not unaffected by the event because it's superior or something; it's simply unrelated to the event itself. Anyway, I would suggest abandoning this point, at least here. I agree that this topic needs its own CRT.

 

[Alus83]

Guys, chill out. I feel like this thread goes out of control.

In fact, one thing I want to add.

Yes, it's true that ED was never said to have any higher nature over the Realms, but in fact you are wrong in your second statement.

Ethereal Divide was called an interdimensional ethereal realm by Zane in Season 11, when Ninja were trapped there for some time. So yes, it's definitely acts as separator for 17 Realms (and now just surrounds Merged Realms)

Edit: I doubt ED even spatial in nature tbh. It's too smooth and unknown.

Either you misunderstood what I said, or I misunderstood what you said. I agree that the Ether Divide is an interdimensional space. However, I've seen other people think that the ED is aspatial in nature. Honestly, I'm not convinced by this idea, but I don't believe it's relevant for scaling purposes (or at least not for this), or it can be useful as a justification for smth.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

In case u still don't accept my proofs from earlier (or think its not enough), here's why the weapons would qualify for UES:

Limited Energy System
The Golden Weapons would fit this critera, as they channel the main 4 elemental powers (proof the book is canon btw). Elemental Powers are used by multiple elemental master, including those of the main 4 elements (Kai, Cole, Jay and Zane, the elemental masters of Fire, Earth, Lightning and Ice). There are obviously multiple varients of elemental powers, and Elemental Powers can use a similar amount of power with any given technique (like with the Sword of Fire being able to harm Jay in a similar way with both fireballs and with a wall of flame)

Non-Physical Energy System
Elemental powers in general have shown that all their non physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency (which would apply to the Golden Weapons too, as they use the same system). It was also shown that when they display an increase in energy/power, the potency of their powers and abilities increase as well, like when Lloyd got supercharged by the Matriach Dragon, increasing his power level and allowing him to deal more damage or when Garmadon drinked Moon Tea, restoring his powers and even making him stronger.

Universal Energy System
Elemental Powers have shown to display an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics, like when Cole entered his Spinjitzu Burst Form, allowing him to easly knock over the Skull Sorcerer which he couldn't do in base form (he also clearly show he can channel his elemental power throught his own body). Elemental power was also shown to be channeled through the user's body, like when the ninjas use their True Potential

As we know earlier, The Golden Weapons use the Elemental Power System, meaning they do have some type of UES, and the Star feat can be scaled to them

@Qawsedf234 So the Golden Weapons thing work now ?

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Either you misunderstood what I said, or I misunderstood what you said. I agree that the Ether Divide is an interdimensional space. However, I've seen other people think that the ED is aspatial in nature. Honestly, I'm not convinced by this idea, but I don't believe it's relevant for scaling purposes (or at least not for this), or it can be useful as a justification for smth.

We don't know is ED spatial or aspatial. We just don't know. All that we know about it right now:
1) It's an interdimensional ethereal separator;
2) It was referred as Nothing Space by Administration in Dragons Rising.

How the heck we can use this shit to any calculations and even discussions?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

We don't know is ED spatial or aspatial. We just don't know. All that we know about it right now:
1) It's an interdimensional ethereal separator;
2) It was referred as Nothing Space by Administration in Dragons Rising.

How the heck we can use this shit to any calculations and even discussions?

Let's just keep the Source Dragon at 2-C via FSM's newest feats (I'll prob have to do another CRT on him specifically just bc of VSBW's standarts)
And there is no way the Ninjago Multiverse is below 4D via the fact they are seperate space time continuum
And scale the characters to the tier 2 and tier 4 feats (Using the UES evidences from earlier )
Simple

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Let's just keep the Source Dragon at 2-C via FSM's newest feats (I'll prob have to do another CRT on him specifically just bc of VSBW's standarts)
And there is no way the Ninjago Multiverse is below 4D via the fact they are seperate space time continuum
And scale the characters to the tier 2 and tier 4 feats (Using the UES evidences from earlier )
Simple

Fully agreed.

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

Oversimplifying, time is the dimension that encompasses every event in spatial dimensions and is considered the fourth dimension. The conception of four-dimensional space-time is associated with the theory of relativity. However, your sentence doesn't make sense; your description is imprecise, and I don't think I fully understood it. "Its because its curving into the 4th dimension" lacks a subject, or are you asserting that space-time "curves" into time? Additionally, what do you mean by "curving"? I have never stated that time is 4D or even the fourth spatial axis. Either you misunderstood, or I expressed myself unclearly. If I did, please point out where, and I'll correct the message.

thats not what relativity says. even mathematically your are wrong. We know the universe is comprised of an additional spatial dimension due to the idea of the extrinsic curvature of space via the result of gravity. Relativity via Einstein Rosen bridges makes the Universal model 4D. Do you know much about curvature? well i should say hypersurfaces. I am saying extrinsic curvatures auto makes it 4D and there is evidence of this throughout ninjago. even if we just ignore that ninjago has its own space-time container to cloud kingdom and never realm also just straight up has its own time flow thats different. relativity also just never calls time 4D thats a myth even the people who bandwagon on that crap didn't believe in that.

It does not curve into time. it curves into the 4th dimension. i probably misunderstood you.

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

"The insides of the realms are 3D, like matter and stuff. (Well, unless you get some weird instance where you get like 1-A rocks)."

What are you talking about? That's what I explained in my message; the realms are spatially 3D.

"Each realm is its own dimension completely separate from Ninjago; it being a separate dimension means it's its own container."

Here is the issue. "Each realm is its own dimension," why? I provided evidence of how they have some sort of physical connection, and each of your examples doesn't really explain how they are different continuums. I mean, it could possibly be the case, but why is it? "Means it's its own container," are you suggesting that the fact they are divided explains how they are isolated universes?

"Extra-dimensional is weird; it depends on the context of the verse how it's used."
You introduced this point; honestly, I don't know anything about it. I don't even recall a single instance in Ninjago where it's mentioned.

"What do you mean the divide hasn't shown to be QS? The Merge doesn't seem to affect the divide at all from what I've seen. I've watched it twice now, and it seems the divide is just not affected by the merge. You just see some weird space outside the cracks in reality, which is breaking space-time of the realms and forcing them into one another. Again, if we're doing 5D divide, and source dragons, can we do this on a different CRT some other time?"

This is because the Merge has influenced the realms, but the Ethereal Divide is not a realm; it's the space that surrounds and is between the realms. In fact, since the realms were united, the ED surrounds the realms. It was not unaffected by the event because it's superior or something; it's simply unrelated to the event itself. Anyway, I would suggest abandoning this point, at least here. I agree that this topic needs its own CRT.

What you talking about? "What are you talking about? That's what I explained in my message; the realms are spatially 3D." thats just not how cosmology models work at all. either a you have no clue how realms work or have no clue how time-spaces work. ninjago has its own time-space which makes it 4D what you are talking about is the insides the physical components are 3D not the container of ninjago itself you have no clue how universal models work.

"You introduced this point; honestly, I don't know anything about it. I don't even recall a single instance in Ninjago where it's mentioned." You introduced this point; honestly, I don't know anything about it. I don't even recall a single instance in Ninjago where it's mentioned.

extra-dimensional statement i said it was weird. i find it weird at least

 

[Dark-Carioca]

That website legit says it makes a star and then later fell onto a comet.... (also thats not evidence, thats just the ninjago fandom which are free to edit sources and not from the show)

Just saying, I hadn't seen a source or scan for it.

I'll leave it up to those who know Ninjago better than I, tbh