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NiGHTS 2-B Upgrade

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Glitch_Trainer_MangleMan25

Glitch_Trainer_MangleMan25

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Hello. I'd like to propose an upgrade for NiGHTS to 2-B alongside the current thread that ran and is still progressing elsewhere regarding a similar 2-B upgrade for Super Sonic.

NiGHTS's Dream World, similarly to Maginaryworld, forms a universe each time a person dreams. Nightopians, who're notably weaker than NiGHTS, can form universes.

https://nid.fandom.com/wiki/Nightopians#NiGHTS_into_Dreams

And these different dreams are established as separate parallel realities.

https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ?t=4439

At the same time, Wizeman said he could destroy all of this AND he created Nightmare, which contains every nightmare ever dreamed as a separate reality.

https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ?t=1h37m https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ?t=2532


Long story short, I say it's only fair to have him in this tier (2-B) now provided this info really showing how vast the Dream World really is, instead of using some commercial to claim it as simply a universe in size.
 
Agree with this completely, Considering the fact that One Red Ideya can allow someone to destroy all of reality and dream as shown in the NiGHTS Comics, which connect to the prologue of the NiGHTS into Dream games.
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
Technically NiGHTS needs more keys as while he's technically 2-B in all his forms , he didn't scale to Wiseman until he had the Ideya Absorbed.
Click to expand...
Is it ever stated in the game that the Ideya boost the wielder's power though? In everything I looked at, I never saw anything exclaiming such.
 
Where is it stated the dream worlds are universes or "parallel realities"? Looking at the wiki page quote, and the videos given, I only hear them being called "Worlds". Not familiar with Nights, nor am I arguing against it, just saying they need more context.

Also, I don't think having a bunch of cameos is enough to call them the same continuity.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Where is it stated the dream worlds are universes or "parallel realities"? Looking at the wiki page quote, and the videos given, I only hear them being called "Worlds". Not familiar with Nights, nor am I arguing against it, just saying they need more context.

Also, I don't think having a bunch of cameos is enough to call them the same continuity.
Click to expand...
The universes are seen to be parallel realities thanks to the Dream Gate, which shows them to only be accessible through the use of portals.

https://nid.fandom.com/wiki/Dream_Gate

Nightmare alone is multiple realities in one, as Wizeman's world alone is separate and closed off from every other section of Nightmare. This means each separate dream dreamed as a nightmare is a separate reality.

https://nid.fandom.com/wiki/Nightmare

And the same goes for Nightopia, where it's confirmed that each world is separate from each other only accessible through the Dream Gate area.

https://nid.fandom.com/wiki/Nightopia

Within the context of the creation of these dreams, world means universe. And not to mention, it's stated in a cutscene that the Ideya create Nightopia, and each door leads to a separate world. With how it's stated, one of the doors leads to Nightopia whilst the rest lead to other realities simply linked to it because of the Nightopians creating separate worlds each time a Visitor dreams.

https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ

So within the context of the Dream Gate being the only way to access them, showing them to be separate realities, and Wizeman's world showing the worlds are indeed separate realities this all provides more evidence for the upgrade.

As for the cameos, NiGHTS didn't just make a cameo in Riders Zero Gravity, Lost World, Shuffle, or Adventure; in Riders Zero Gravity, NiGHTS is playable, in Lost World he actually interacts with Sonic in a dream. Same for Shuffle, where he actually talks to and interacts with Sonic and the cast. And in Adventure, Sonic full-on enters Spring Valley and passes by NiGHTS in the a dream world. So their worlds are definitely conntected, especially given all these appearances are canon and NiGHTS is fully playable in Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity, which despite being a spinoff is also part of the main Sonic canon.
 
Also, I've unaware of how many exactly, but how many votes yes do you need for an upgrade to get approved, or does it simply require admin approval? If someone could tell, that'd be a bit helpful for how long this thread needs to go.

I'm assuming if anyone objects though, a debate needs to go through before it can happen?
 
It doesn't really matter how many people approve it, but yes there does need to be general staff approval; whether it be from Discussion Mods, Admins, or Bureaucrats.

Also, looking at the scans. I haven't really found any evidence of the Dream Worlds being universes. I didn't hear the word "Parallel Realities" and them requiring portals to travel from one to the other doesn't automatically make them different universes without more context.

Furthermore, being playable in the spin offs doesn't automatically make them canon. Link is playable in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, but that doesn't make Zelda and Mario in the same canon. And the Donkey Kong example is very different; they were in the same video game from the very beginning in which has since made canon for both their future games. Or even interacting with them isn't really enough; has Nights ever had a bigger involvement in the story/lore rather than just a brief interaction? Cameos for characters of the same creators are very common, but that doesn't always make them part of the same verse. It might be more of a similar case to how Dr Slump and Dragon Ball are different canons.
 
There's a problem with the last part lmfao. Nights is consistently a part of Sonic in like 7 Games, you can access another segment of Sonic Shuffle by changing the dates which unlocks Reala And Nights, Sonic Shuffle is no Spin-off, it's objectively Canon, there's no reason why it wouldn't be, Nights is Also In Sonic Adventure when you play the Pinball game going to a Different World Which is revealed to Be Nights Into Dreams, Then Nights is Also in Sonic Lost Worlds. You can make a Case that Mario And Zelda aren't a part of Sonic's Verse although their worlds appeared in Lost World as well, but Nights literally cannot be excluded, he's far too consistent and prevalent in the Verse. (On an irrelevant note however Sonic has been in Nights Into Dreams, Super Monkey Ball, Phantasy Star And Others as well)
 
"Spin off" just means a different genre, and has nothing to do whether or not the games themselves are canon. In Mario's case, we do have confirmation that all spin offs are canon excluding obvious crossovers like Smash Bros, Mario & Sonic at Olympic Games, the various DOS and CDI games not published by Nintendo, and the stuff that aren't video games (Cartoons, comics, movies, ect). And while the same thing could arguably be said for Sonic, that doesn't mean every single cameo is canon. Multiple Nintendo games have stuff of characters with multiple interactions with other Nintendo franchises but we didn't accept them as canon.
 
I don't want to get in this whole Nights is canon or not because I wasn't the one who made the argument but basing your whole refute on a analogy to a franchise you like, no offense, makes you look biased, not saying you are, but it sounds like "If my favorite franchises can't be accepted than this other can't", even if that's not your intention in your posts, I would recomend giving more proof than just comparing to Nintendo cameos

Also on another note the Mario croosover with Link was just DLC in a racing game without history, while Nights appeared and interacted with Sonic in a story mode and base game unlike the Mario Kart example, the Mario Kart case is more like when Sonic went into Super Monkey Ball then Nights examples
 
Well Nights isn't just a Cameo, he's actually done a storyline with sonic in shuffle, Lumina's Presence Is Basically replaced by Nights and the story is slightly altered, then his world has appeared in sonic adventure and sonic lost world, the burden of proof of whether these instances are "not canon" is on you Medeus, we proved that the evidence of sonic and Nights being in the same verse is not absent.
 
Oh, if he interacted with Sonic in Shuffle in the story then there's not much debate about he being canon, I would also like proof he isn't outside of analogies and personal opinion as well
 
That... Wasn't the point at all. The only point was just there needed to be more context then a character appearing multiple times. And avoid saying "Verses you like" as an argument. It's wiki guidelines and community standards, no more no less. It was only brought up because someone else brought up the Donkey Kong example which I was addressing. And I never bashed anything here, simply pointed out an error.

Furthermore, on topic. MaginaryWorld has a completely different origin story despite similar concepts. They're both described as gathering dreams from other worlds, yet they have completely different creators. Which would be a contradiction as well as an indication of them not being canon. And Nights appearing in Sonic Shuffle was like a game mode where Lumina looks like Nights despite having Lumina's voice and being called Lumina.
 
Oh okay but Imagine already showed that Nights interacted with Sonic in a story, and I did say no offense nor said you bashed anything, just pointed out that most of your points were based on analogies and recomended not doing that to not get the wrong impretion from others

Just because both are dream worlds doesn't mean they can't co exist at all, there's simply two dream worlds, that isn't a argument against on they being canon at all
 
We never argued Maginaryworld and The Nights Into Dreams being different buddy, what we are saying is that Nights has been too prevalent in the Sonic Canon And can't be considered just a cameo, Sonic Adventure And Sonic Lost World is just one of those examples. His World has literally interacted with Sonic's, do you have evidence that they are not canon?
 
All that really just means is that there's a character who looks like Nights, and is named Nights who is considered a canon character in the Sonic Verse. Not that the Nights is the same Nights from the Nights main series. There's also plenty examples of this.

And what I meant by MaginaryWorld is that it literally has it's definition of "Gathering all the dreams from those of other dimensions" as the definition. Implying that not only is it one of a kind within the Sonic Multiverse, but also that all dreams in the multiverse are collected by it. Meaning in order for both MaginaryWorld and Nights' Dream World to be in the same multiverse, they would either have to be the same thing, or one would have to be a sub-dimension of the other. Having two equally prominent Dream Worlds stated to contain "All dreams" would be iffy. Because either one would have to contain the other, or each of them don't actually contain "All" dreams but rather half each.
 
That's arguing from Ignorance, do you have any proof this Nights is not the Nights from Nights Into Dreams with his World clearly being shown in the series, we have no reason to believe this is a faulty Nights. These are faulty assumptions which you need to prove reason to believe it, otherwise it's hitchens razor.

There can be two or more factories Of something, that whole paragraph is unnecessary and proves nothing, Nights Dream Collectiveness has All Dreams And So does Maginaryworld, it's two factories with the same job, you're over complicating this bro.
 
Yes, there can easily be two dream worlds with both having all dreams, just like we can have two factorys irl with both making the same thing, ones existance doesn't contradict the other, they were just made by two diferent people with the same purpose

Your first paragraph literaly goes against Occam's razor since that would require way more assumptions
 
That would be asking me to prove a negative. One-sided Crossovers and canonicities are a thing. Other examples are Dante (Shin Megami Tensei) being canon to SMT but not the same Dante from DMC despite having multiple origin story similarities. The various Dr Slump characters appear to be canon to Dragon Ball, but none of them are considered the same Dr Slump characters from Dr Slump. Not using different verse comparisons as an example, just explaining that alternate canons are a thing and having more interaction doesn't always stop them from being cameos.

Not the point. These aren't just generic factories, these are locations connect the entirety of the verse. I'm not over-complicating anything, just staying true to the guidelines. We can't have two people who literally have "All the money in the world" because the other would not have a single penny left if one person did. That would be a better comparison.
 
Dreams are not like money as if there's a limited amount existant there's, they make the dreams of people real, just like two companys making the same job of vídeo games, there's simply just double, plus in Nights the dreams are more like what you actualy dreamed while Maginary World is the aspirations of people, so they can easily co exist since they both do the same "job" but diferentely
 
The problem is, if one factory is literally stated to have created every single product of something in existence as well as containing every single one of them in their possession, then a second company can't also at the same time be the one that created every single copy of that same thing in existence and has each and everyone in existence at the same time. Neither one would be stated to have contain "Every single dream" if that was the case.
 
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