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Never Two without Three: Rimuru Vs Arceus

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This has nothing to do with whether it effects us IRL or not.

This discussion can (and for some, is) be frustrating because of people always having doubts, always asking questions, making up points to downplay and accuse others of wank over a character's capabilities. For someone who geniunely tries to keep things as accruate and level'd as possible, that can become very annoying to deal with all the time.

Oh yeah maybe its just me since im never really care about anything in this site because im come here just for fun, if someone disagree with me, or someone wank their fav character or anything, let they do anything they like because im think they're come here also for fun so im just continue arguing because its fun for me
 
@GLHF, don't worry. I'm not mad at you or anything. You've been a good debater this entire thread. I don't mind you're arguing for Rimuru. I don't mind anyone arguing for Rimuru.
 
Let me try and address some points that are just a flat out NO.

>Yknow, Hooppa didnt even Mindhax arceus,giratina or Dialga, because in that movie Dialga and co not even 2B

No disrespect, but im wondering if you even watched the Hoopa movie after saying this. Hoopa mindhaxed the entire CT and other legendaries in this movie at once (and a weakened Hoopa at that).

Arceus's resistance and mind hax is unbelievebly upscaled from Hoopas because Arceus's powers are (quite clearly) unbelievebly superior to Ghris, a human who only possesses a small facet of Arceus's power. Ghris is able to resist Hoopa's mind hax and seal Hoopa away without being controlled. So saying Hoopa didnt control any of the CT is a flat out lie.

>Arceus has 2-C AP in the movie

Even just strictly going by feats only instead of anything else, this is still wrong. Jewel of Life Arceus still would have 2-B power because of it being able to shake the entire regular Multiverse (as the Time-Space axis showed) when he was traveling to Earth. So IDK where "its 2-C" only is coming from when its completely wrong, especially since the Anime is a part of the entire Pokemon Multiverse as others above already pointed out.

>Heck, Arceus only fights using avatars, Im surprised that people argues "Arceus is bigger" when the only thing he uses in fights are avatars.

Another point thats honestly nonsense. Ignoring the points Neo pointed out above, Arceus mostly using Avatars is probably because, I dont know, he doesnt even need to fight using his abstract form? Its not like anything in the verse can pose a legitimate threat to him, so IDK where "only" is coming from here. Not fighting with your true form often =/= you cannot. It's simply unneccessary.

Not to mention this would be a major PIS thing to happen since if Arceus fought anything without an Avatar.....he'd instantly demolish anything in the verse. If just his Avatar needed to be hit with the PIS stick, that kinda should tell you we'd almost never get Arceus fighting without one or else he'd be impossible to beat in any story, period.
 
I didn't want to bring his up before because it feels like I would sound like I'm reaching but I can't shake this feeling while reading this thread, doesn't Rimuru becoming Omnipresent/gaining range across a multiverse vastly bigger than anything he has ever shown, and becoming resistant to a BFR, the Distortion World, that two beings far above his AP couldn't escape seem a bit NLF. I've read the Web Novel up to the end, and I know theirs that infinite energy machine that consistently brought up, as well as all the feats he has with his absorption and analysis constantly doing things far above their pay grade, but it still feels slightly NLF to me to just jump so high without supporting feats.
 
Something tells me that what we count as the "accepted" abilities for Arceus and the CT is a mess.

And I think some of the statements shown in the past kind of contradict each other.
 
DMB 1 said:
Something tells me that what we count as the "accepted" abilities for Arceus and the CT is a mess.
And I think some of the statements shown in the past kind of contradict each other.
Click to expand...
That probably happens because Pokémon is a big franchise and alot of it is Secondary/Tertiary canon with one of its biggest pieces of media, the anime and movies, constantly contradicting the primary canon. It's like the whole problem with Dialga's acasuality, which is something a being like Dialga would normally easily get, comes from a secondary canon that contradicts the Primary canon.
 
Usually, i don't bring myself in battle against powerfull oponent (like 2-B, 2-A or higher) so idk if nobody has brough the evidence of Omnipresent characters who use avatar can't probably act in their omni form, but imo i think you need feat or something like that, we can't speculate like that, same for Arceus case

@Kukui Honselty, what you said is a pretty common logic, if Arceus only used Avatar to fight, that mean he can fight in his omni form? no, the reason of "he could beat anyone with ease" isn't a good refutation, that should be better if he showed to use his omni form to do something, for saying that he doesn't need to fight in his abstract form, you need to prove that he can fight in this form firstly, if not, we can't assume that he can. (plus there exist some proof that they only use avatar to fight)

@Everyone Someone can summary the reason? i'am lost here.
 
>idk if nobody has brought the evidence of Omnipresent characters who use avatar can't probably act in their omni form, but imo i think you need feat or something like that, we can't speculate like that, same for Arceus case

Except its not even speculation. We've never ever remotely needed a feat of someone acting in their omnipresent form, so IDK why we would suddenly speculate that they cannot act in said form. Omnipresence would be a pretty useless power if that was the case, which is honestly just absurd.

>If Arceus only used Avatar to fight, that mean he can fight in his omni form? no, the reason of "he could beat anyone with ease" isn't a good refutation,

Except, it actually is a good refutation. Because why would someone need their true form to fight when an Avatar is more than enough to get the job done?

Not to mention, like I said before, it would also be incredible PIS since Arceus would be 100% unstoppable if he used his true form to battle. That, and we wouldnt even be able to see any actual good fighting if Arceus didnt have a physical manifestation for people to view, which is required for the sake of story. Unless you suddenly consider a fight against something thats not there a good fight.

And even then, Neo has already proven that Arceus can act in his true form anyway, such as stopping a timeline from being destroyed in M.D. without even being physically present there.

>for saying that he doesn't need to fight in his abstract form, you need to prove that he can fight in this form firstly

Except there isnt even any reason to assume he cant fight in his omnipresent form in the first place. That is the problem with this. We have 0 reason to assume at all that any omnipresent being cannot act without a physical avatar.
 
It's a good reason of him to assume that he can't fight in his omni form since he never showed this firstly, we can speculate that a character can act in his omni form since quote itself said that the OS create an avatar to interact with the world. it's a pretty bad reason the "Esay win for him" and "plot", why no one in the omni verse used their omni form to fight? but again this point make sense if we have proof that they can act in their omni form, if not, the poiont is moot (and i don't want to ask about the movie the jewel of life but that pretty balant)

Stopping a timeline from being erased without being here is a good range feat, or have you any evidence of omni arceus act like that? if yes show me this.
 
Following this thread I am quite surprised how the previous thread(s) ignored quite a bit from both sides by just forcing a vote through.
 
Can't wait to say that The One Above All hasn't shown to have combative feats in his omnipresent state so he can't.
 
The real cal howard said:
Can't wait to say that The One Above All hasn't shown to have combative feats in his omnipresent state so he can't.
Click to expand...
Ow Cal, you know that TOAA doesn't have multiple case where he fight with avatars only and a quote which said that he need to use avatar to interact with the world

Anyway, i drop this for now, i don't want to arg anymore, i'll just watch the comments.
 
>quote which said that he need to use avatar to interact with the world

Show me this quote. Because I have never once seen it.
 
There's nothing in games that directly states that Arceus uses physical forms to interact with the world, Arceus uses physical forms, that's all. End.
 
>It's a good reason of him to assume that he can't fight in his omni form since he never showed this firstly

Because he's never had a reason to show it. And PIS would negate that from happening anyway as there would be 0 way to beat or stop Arceus if that were to happen.

This is the equivalent to saying an Omnipotent being isnt Omnipotent because they create an Avatar to fight an opponent with instead of just instantly blinking them out of existence.

>it's a pretty bad reason the "Esay win for him" and "plot", why no one in the omni verse used their omni form to fight?

Your gonna have to be clearer on this point because im having trouble understanding. But if what I read is what I think it is, saying it'll be "easy for him to win" and "plot" is not a bad reason at all for someone whos infinitely superior to anything else in his verse.

Arceus's avatar alone stomped the entire CT, the world's only defense against Arceus, with absolute ease. Now imagine Arceus, for some reason, deciding to use his true form that no one in said world can interact with. Again, how would they be able to stop him from wrecking and destroying everything? And how would creators be able to make a great fight for the sake of story happen if the opponent was literally...well...nothing?

Both answers: They wouldnt. Arceus would just blink everyone gone if not using an Avatar and there would be no fight to happen. Thus, no story.

>but again this point make sense if we have proof that he can act in their omni form

We shouldnt need proof that they can act in their Omnipresent form to begin with because its honestly ridiculous to assume that they cannot. In fact, let me ask you this.

How would an Omnipresent being be able to even create an Avatar for themselves if they cant act in said omnipresent form to begin with?

>Stopping a timeline from being erased without being here is a good range feat, or have you any evidence of omni arceus act like that?

The feat within itself is supposed to be evidence. You cant just chalk it up to being "a good range feat", especially when any omnipresent on such a scale would be able to operate to that kind of extent in range. Arceus was not physically present there and he stopped the timeline from being erased. Its not simply just a matter of range.
 
The real cal howard said:
Can't wait to say that The One Above All hasn't shown to have combative feats in his omnipresent state so he can't.
Click to expand...
The point was more towards characters glhave Abstract Existence Type 1 that used Avatar and have no feats outside of them like @The Causality explained not on omnipresence.
 
@Cal and Neo

"Note 1: The entity Arceus is the physical manifestation of the Original Spirit used to interact with the Pokémon Multiverse."

From his own profile so.

@Kukui hmmm not convinced at all, i could probably again answer your wall but this will become a endless debate so i'll stop and keep my opinion about.
 
Oh, you mean that note that we made up that literally just says that Arceus and the OS are the same being?

Again, I wouldn't have cared at all if people were one, questioning Arceus or two, arguing for Rimuru. I only snapped because people were downplaying to the point of saying an omnipresent can't do shit as an omnipresent.
 
That note is wrong tbh, nothing in the games says that the Original Spirit only uses physical forms to interact with the world, the games just say that Arceus is the physical form of the Original Spirit, that's all.
 
Yeah, Pokémon's tier 2 profiles are a bit incomplete, for example, Arceus' profile doesn't even list all the moves that Arceus can use or learn by level.
 
NeoZex6399 said:
Yeah, Pokémon's tier 2 profiles are a bit incomplete, for example, Arceus' profile doesn't even list all the moves that Arceus can use or learn by level.
Click to expand...
Isn't it like that for all pokemon profiles?
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
In fact, let me ask you this.

How would an Omnipresent being be able to even create an Avatar for themselves if they cant act in said omnipresent form to begin with?
Click to expand...
So is this point of mine just going to be ignored?

I dont mind it if no one wants to respond to my other points, but this is one particular one that I feel needs to actually be looked at if continuing this.
 
Honestly I just find the concept of a true form that doesn't have the powers of its its lesser avatar weird.The avatar was definitely created by the Original Spirit, which means people are saying that Original Spirit is giving it's avatar powers it itself doesn't have.
 
Whelp, this thread went to complete hell, and its a stomp anyway

Let's never debate or argue this again

Everyone who snapped here needs to grow up.
 
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