NEP aspect type 5 for Graham. Maou Gakuin

[Orioreeem]

Character doesn't need order to exist in verse...

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Character doesn't need order to exist in verse...

Root is needed to exist. Lol. Also root is bounded to order.

 

[Regidian]

People who disagreeing here have zero knowledge on the verse. Order is what makes and what keeps ones existence what it is in MGF. Lacking order would mean they're completely lacking existence itself. Graham lacking reason is even bigger reason why he should get type 5.

Lacking existence itself it's what give NEP 2 in first, lacking reason will never get you type 5.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Basically, you can't just say Order & Reason are Fundamental/Essential to existence without specifying in what way. If it's in any Physical. Mental, Spiritual, Conceptual ,or Informational way then it won't give Aspect Type 5.

Lacking Order or Reason has to remove some kind of fundamental existence from you that is not on the list mentioned above.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Lacking existence itself it's what give NEP 2 in first, lacking reason will never get you type 5.

??

Other: These characters lack some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence or have one that behaves as if nonexistent*. Examples would include things like lacking an information body, a history or a place in the narrative of their story. They are hence immune to abilities that target that respective aspect. Which aspect should be mentioned on the profile.

Reason is not concepts or some law manipulation in the verse. I already explained.

Basically, you can't just say Order & Reason are Fundamental/Essential to existence without specifying in what way. If it's in any Physical. Mental, Spiritual, Conceptual ,or Informational way then it won't give Aspect Type 5.

Lacking Order or Reason has to remove some kind of fundamental existence from you that is not on the list mentioned above.

some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence

Him Existing without root only gives him NEP type 2. His true existence doesn't have that. It's even deeper than that and has no reason which is not a fundamental concepts in the verse. Order and root are fundamental concepts in the verse. Again Reason manipulation is more like plot hax not Conceptual hax .

 

[Orioreeem]

The argument right now would be that since source(concept) is fundamental aspect of existence for a characters there is certain order that source is bound by and if that order is destroy source would also be destroyed hence order would be fundamental for character's existence . Order is concept law and fate hence type 5.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The argument right now would be that since source(concept) is fundamental aspect of existence for a characters there is certain order that source is bound by and if that order is destroy source would also be destroyed hence order would be fundamental for character's existence . Order is concept law and fate hence type 5.

Not only order. His existence lacks Reason which works on plot type of thing in the verse.

 

[Orioreeem]

Reason=/=plot It's just a thing that is more abstract then order and I don't even think it is needed for character's existence

 

[Sniper670]

The argument right now would be that since source(concept) is fundamental aspect of existence for a characters there is certain order that source is bound by and if that order is destroy source would also be destroyed hence order would be fundamental for character's existence . Order is concept law and fate hence type 5.

It's been around 24 hrs and you've still not mentioned what the fundamental aspects are

You keep repeating the same thing over and over again. That is not going to get anyone's mind to magically change

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

The argument right now would be that since source(concept) is fundamental aspect of existence for a characters there is certain order that source is bound by and if that order is destroy source would also be destroyed hence order would be fundamental for character's existence . Order is concept law and fate hence type 5.

Yeah, this reasoning is better.
I think removing lack of life and death from the OP would be better because it confuses non-supporter.

 

[Orioreeem]

It's been around 24 hrs and you've still not mentioned what the fundamental aspects are

You keep repeating the same thing over and over again. That is not going to get anyone's mind to magically change

But I just did? I even explained why it would be fundamental, you should reread it and ask me what confuses you.

 

[Sniper670]

You didn't. We won't just list type 5 law, fate.

Name the fundamental aspect first

 

[Orioreeem]

Order is fundamental and it's concept law and fate.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You didn't. We won't just list type 5 law, fate.

Name the fundamental aspect first

Just appeal to ignorance that's all.

 

[Sniper670]

Order is fundamental and it's concept law and fate.

Fundamental to what. What aspects to his existence exactly

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Reason=/=plot It's just a thing that is more abstract then order and I don't even think it is needed for character's existence

I didn't said It's plot but it's Potency is on par with plot hax. That's all and yeah it doesn't need for existence.

 

[Sniper670]

I didn't said It's plot but it's Potency is on par with plot hax. That's all and yeah it doesn't need for existence.

It's not.

What's with the irrelevant wank in a thread that has nothing to do with that statement ?

 

[Orioreeem]

Fundamental to what. What aspects to his existence exactly

To his whole existence? If that certain order is destroyed it would destroy character's source and without a source character can't exist.

 

[Sniper670]

Basically, you can't just say Order & Reason are Fundamental/Essential to existence without specifying in what way. If it's in any Physical. Mental, Spiritual, Conceptual ,or Informational way then it won't give Aspect Type 5.

Lacking Order or Reason has to remove some kind of fundamental existence from you that is not on the list mentioned above.

Will they listen tho?

They think listing law will grant Graham immunity to all law hax lol.

Reason in maou≠Reason outside. Which is why stuff like logic manipulation is not on the wiki. You can never be beyond all reason. It's just your verse.

So you list what the fundamental aspects are, then it's given.

 

[Sniper670]

To his whole existence? If that certain order is destroyed it would destroy character's source and without a source character can't exist.

What are the fundamental order?

If you can't do, that, then get staff to review it. But for those non stuff who're knowledgeable on aspect type 5, and the others(besides maou supporters) who've weighed in, nothing you've mentioned is fundamental to his existence.

It's law and fate right? Fate is not fundamental so no. Name the fundamental law.

 

[Regidian]

To his whole existence? If that certain order is destroyed it would destroy character's source and without a source character can't exist.

It's already listed for the source.


Nature Types 2, 3 & Aspect Types 1, 2, 3; Graham remains as nothingness with a nonexistent "source" after his "normal source" (concept) is destroyed

 

[Orioreeem]

What are the fundamental order?

Order that governs source

It's law and fate right? Fate is not fundamental so no. Name the fundamental law.

Order IS law and fate in one. If order is fundamental then so are they.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It's not.

What's with the irrelevant wank in a thread that has nothing to do with that statement ?

If you can't read I can't help it. What's with this ignorance in the thread. Also I done even want to bring why you re ignoring the fact source is fundamental aspects of one's existence in the verse. LMAO

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Order that governs source

Order IS law and fate in one. If order is fundamental then so are they.

Fate & Law are a part of Order, without Order there is no Source and without Source, there is no existence, however, Graham already lacks a Source and doesn't have Aspect Type 5, and lacking Order is the only Fundamental cause you lack a Source which he already lacks.

You guys are creating a loop.

 

[Sniper670]

Fate & Law are a part of Order, without Order there is no Source and without Source, there is no existence, however, Graham already lacks a Source and doesn't have Aspect Type 5, and lacking Order is the only Fundamental cause you lack a Source which he already lacks.

You guys are creating a loop.

This sums it up. I won't comment on the others.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Fate & Law are a part of Order, without Order there is no Source and without Source, there is no existence, however, Graham already lacks a Source and doesn't have Aspect Type 5, and lacking Order is the only Fundamental cause you lack a Source which he already lacks.

You guys are creating a loop.

His existence without source is nothingness.

Other: These characters lack some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence or have a nonexistent one. Examples would include things like lacking a history. They are hence immune to abilities that target that respective aspect. Which aspect should be mentioned on the profile, together with any detail regarding what it makes them immune to.

His true form even lacks that.

Source (Order) < Nothingness (NEP type 2) < True Form.

I hope you get it.

 

[Sniper670]

His existence without source is nothingness.


His true form even lacks that.

Source (Order) < Nothingness (NEP type 2) < True Form.

I hope you get it.

Great. So we can go without fate and law then.

Graham is what he is because he lacks a Source, which is already on his profile.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Great. So we can go without fate and law then.

Graham is what he is because he lacks a Source, which is already on his profile.

Great then I am just gonna ignore you like you ignoring the arguments of others. LMAO

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Alright, I'm about to break this down from my understanding, any sarcasm is unwelcomed.

1; Graham lacks a source currently and still does not qualify for Type 5 Aspect.

2; What makes Order so fundamental is that without Order there is no existence, Graham already lacks existence so this changes nothing.

3; Order is more conceptual than normal conceptual stuff but is still conceptual and therefore not qualifying as Aspect Type 5. Plot or whatever is irrelevant as that is also not Type 5.

4; Fate & Laws are not accepted as Type 5 by themselves and it has to be stated that they are fundamental DIRECTLY. Saying Order is Law & Fate and without Order you don't exist just loops back into #2.

So how do we solve this? List one thing, just one, just one fundamental aspect of Order that is not related to the Mind, Body, Soul nor related to Concepts, Information, Laws, or Fate.

Just one single thing that is not "His entire existence on a more fundamental level" cause you need some sort of scan that says exactly that.

 

[Orioreeem]

Fate & Law are a part of Order, without Order there is no Source and without Source, there is no existence, however, Graham already lacks a Source and doesn't have Aspect Type 5, and lacking Order is the only Fundamental cause you lack a Source which he already lacks.

You guys are creating a loop.

This does make sense I suppose

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Alright, I'm about to break this down from my understanding, any sarcasm is unwelcomed.

1; Graham lacks a source currently and still does not qualify for Type 5 Aspect.

Yes ok that's not the main argument here

2; What makes Order so fundamental is that without Order there is no existence, Graham already lacks existence so this changes nothing.

Yes his nothingness lacks order. So we are on same page.

3; Order is more conceptual than normal conceptual stuff but is still conceptual and therefore not qualifying as Aspect Type 5. Plot or whatever is irrelevant as that is also not Type 5.

4; Fate & Laws are not accepted as Type 5 by themselves and it has to be stated that they are fundamental DIRECTLY. Saying Order is Law & Fate and without Order you don't exist just loops back into #2.

So how do we solve this? List one thing, just one, just one fundamental aspect of Order that is not related to the Mind, Body, Soul nor related to Concepts, Information, Laws, or Fate.

Just one single thing that is not "His entire existence on a more fundamental level" cause you need some sort of scan that says exactly that.

So again his true form even lacks that above said Nothingness.

Him lacking source is only NEP type 2 but his aspects is Emptiness itself. After getting erased by Venozdonor he still existed as something else.

1. This is first time his Source getting erased. Which js fundamental concepts of one's existence and he still exists as Emptiness.

根源は消え、体さえも消滅した。
　だが、確かにそいつはそこにいる。
The root is gone, even the body is gone.
　But it is certainly there.
無があるといったところか
　無がそこに存在し、活動している。
"Nothingness is there, or something like that."
　Nothingness is there and active.

2. This is when his Emptiness destroyed & his True Form existing without that Emptiness.

「滅ぼしたからといって、それが永遠だと思うかい？」
　響いた声は、俺の背後から。
　姿形は見えず、ただ乱竄神鎌ベフェヌグズドグマだけが、浮かび上がっている。
　さながら、そこにいる何者かが持ち上げているかのように。
　先程の虚無とは違うな。
"Do you think that just because you've destroyed it, it's forever?"
　The voice echoed from behind me.
　No figure could be seen, only the fiery scythe, Befenugsdogma, was floating in the air.
　It was as if something there was lifting it up.
　It is different from the emptiness I saw earlier.

Different form from emptiness* it's clearly specified here. It's clearly different from the one after his source getting destroyed.

「だけど、滅びた後のなにもない無が、理さえ伴わない虚無こそが、僕の根源の本来の姿だ」
　理滅剣は、確かに奴の虚無を滅ぼした。
"But the emptiness of nothingness after the destruction, the emptiness without even reason, is the true form of my root."
　The Sword of destruction has indeed destroyed his emptiness.

To break it out his Emptiness exist without root and his True Form exist even without that Emptiness. I hope you get this now that I actually provided the scans.

 

[Sniper670]

Get some staff to look at the arguments presented here.

This is a loop and both sides have presented their evidence. Anything more is just repetition

ActuallySpaceMan makes sense to me. I don't see any fundamental aspects from law and Fate

 

[ImmortalDread]

Get some staff to look at the arguments presented here.

This is a loop and both sides have presented their evidence. Anything more is just repetition

ActuallySpaceMan makes sense to me. I don't see any fundamental aspects from law and Fate

You said both sides provided evidences yet I did not see any evidence from ActuallySpaceMan.

 

[Sniper670]

Alright, I'm about to break this down from my understanding, any sarcasm is unwelcomed.

1; Graham lacks a source currently and still does not qualify for Type 5 Aspect.

2; What makes Order so fundamental is that without Order there is no existence, Graham already lacks existence so this changes nothing.

3; Order is more conceptual than normal conceptual stuff but is still conceptual and therefore not qualifying as Aspect Type 5. Plot or whatever is irrelevant as that is also not Type 5.

4; Fate & Laws are not accepted as Type 5 by themselves and it has to be stated that they are fundamental DIRECTLY. Saying Order is Law & Fate and without Order you don't exist just loops back into #2.

So how do we solve this? List one thing, just one, just one fundamental aspect of Order that is not related to the Mind, Body, Soul nor related to Concepts, Information, Laws, or Fate.

Just one single thing that is not "His entire existence on a more fundamental level" cause you need some sort of scan that says exactly that.

It's here. It makes much more sense to me.

In fact the only people who agree with the thread are maou supporters, who, I might add didn't even know the standards for aspect type 5 when the crt began. With Fixxed arguing as to why his opinion supercedes the wiki standards

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It's here. It makes much more sense to me.

In fact the only people who agree with the thread are maou supporters, who, I might add didn't even know the standards for aspect type 5 when the crt began. With Fixxed arguing as to why his opinion supercedes the wiki standards

So you just wants to disagree with whatever Fixxed claims. Nice refute.

 

[Sniper670]

Get staff. Getting DT here will be great. He revised Nep

 

[wwereymy235]

Low key think it’s best to just wait for staff decision unless new evidence is provided which can satisfy non supporters. I don’t want another incident breaking out :/

 

[Dog3352]

It's here. It makes much more sense to me.

In fact the only people who agree with the thread are maou supporters, who, I might add didn't even know the standards for aspect type 5 when the crt began. With Fixxed arguing as to why his opinion supercedes the wiki standards

I'll be honest here, the explanation of aspect 5 is as bad as my mother's diction, someone needs to explain that better, but anyway, the fact that Graham's true emptiness existed even without its source (fundamental concept of existence) goes perfectly according to the standards you asked for.

 

[Sniper670]

It doesn't. And has already been explained.

I'll repeat, get staff

 

[Dog3352]

It doesn't. And has already been explained.

I'll repeat, get staff

As long as Graham's true emptiness exists without the source (fundamental aspect of existence) does fulfill the requirements you asked for, now it's just a case of waiting for someone on the team who doesn't dislike Maou Gakuin to arrive (Impossible).