Natsu VS Wiki all Wrong

[MaBoiAcnologia]

Natsu's VS Wiki caps him Massively Hypersonic+ and Large Island, these are completely wrong. It is easy to see hes way above this, people tend to blow away the fact Stings attacks are actually light. If you don't believe me, check this link docs.google.com/document/d/1LHc7OPOFxd8dW70Gv6suMwEZUoIbAw48b3l96mCTOh0/edit?usp=sharing for a full explanation on it. As for his strength, did everyone forget Tower of Heaven tanked Etherion, a country busting attack? Did everyone forget when he overpowered Animus attack with strength alone and Animus assimiliated Dragons Cry (power greater than 10 Etherions)? Hes easily at base country to multi country busting +, in END or FDKM he can easily be continet busting at this point. This really needs to be fixed because Natsu isnt getting the respect he deserves, as well in attack potency. The dude blew away 2 mountain ranges (island level ish) when high on shrooms, this was pre time skip (well during) and without higher forms, he can easily be at least multi large island in attack potency (and this is without me using powerscale since his magic is > his strength.

 

[LordGinSama]

Lmao this is funny. But no Strings White Magic is not light nor is he anywhere near that level of speed.


Animus doesn't scale to Etherion.


Natsu isn't anywhere near continent or country level. That's a baseless claim.


Your arguments make no sense. Natsu is staying where he's currently rated.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

MaiBoiAcnologia does make a few good points

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

Lmao this is funny. But no Strings White Magic is not light nor is he anywhere near that level of speed.

Animus doesn't scale to Etherion.


Natsu isn't anywhere near continent or country level. That's a baseless claim.


Your arguments make no sense. Natsu is staying where he's currently rated.

Did you read the doc? I did prove it is light. Animus doesnt scale to Etherion at all, but he assimilated Dragons Cry, which was stated to be 10x of Etherion. Meaning he was holding that level of magic, not to mention the fact that Dragons by themselves are already stupidly powerful. And didnt you see how I mentioned Tower of Heaven? Natsu practically took it all down by his lonesome, and that tower took the same country busting attack we have been talking about, Etherion. Im sorry you see my argument as having no sense, hopefully youll read them again.

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

MaiBoiAcnologia does make a few good points

Thanks!

 

[TataHakai]

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LHc7OPOFxd8dW70Gv6suMwEZUoIbAw48b3l96mCTOh0/edit?usp=sharing here is a new link, sorry for the delay!

 

[Blanked]

When you don't know where to start from...

His light is called a laser, but his laser also bends and light can't bend under normal circumstances so automatically that gets debunked.

The rest of the reasonings are even worse and i am not even gonna bother with it.

Tower of heaven doesn't scale to Natsu.

Animus has indeed assimilated that power, but he also spread all of its power around the entire continent and only took back a minimum from the circles above the town when Natsu and he fought so he did not use all of Dragon cry's power when he fought Natsu, but a very small amount that also can't be calculated or determinated.

All the rest of your arguments are not worth time as they are bunch of your assumptions like pre time skip Natsu doing a mountain/island size damage like seriously.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Sting's magic is holy attribute magic according to Mavis, a long lived and knowledgeable mage who is recognized as a genius. It is absolutely not light magic. This has been discussed and debunked multiple times before.

High as a kite Natsu destroying a mountain range is anime only. And the Fairy Tail anime is too bloody inconsistent to take seriously as far as power-scaling and feat quantifying is concerned. The amount of PIS and outliers is far greater than even the manga.

Also keep in mind that we don't usually use the anime at all when analysing feats and assigning stats. We consider it non-canon to the manga. There are exceptions but Fairy Tail is not one of them.

Country to Continent level Natsu? Uh... What?

I believe Blanked answered this well enough.

Look, I understand that Natsu gets too much hate. But you coming in here and wanking him like this isn't going to help.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

I thought this is a fun & games thread....

 

[Blanked]

I don't get why people always use Sting as example when they have legit light users... Erza has reacted on light manipulation from FT during her very first appearance lol. Makarov uses light in his battles etc...

Pfft, people are not good at wanking.

@Homu i thought that too until i read his post, but after half way through i knew he wasn't joking.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

FT speed is actuall already impressive IMO, they are basically faster than even the Big 3.

 

[Blanked]

Don't go saying that before somone uses it as an argument to why upgrading them further wouldn't be an outlier lol.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Not sorry

 

[Blanked]

Okay, we are derailing.

Waiting too see the answer from the OP now.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I don't get why people always use Sting as example when they have legit light users... Erza has reacted on light manipulation from FT during her very first appearance lol. Makarov uses light in his battles etc...

I've seen people using Jellal to wank Fairy Tail to FTL. They claim his Meteor allows him to travel at light speed.

 

[Blanked]

Because his body is covered in that aura that looks like light...

I even remember people claiming he is "meteor" level, because he described his seven stars having the strengths equal to a meteor.

I mean that's fair, but what the heck is meteor lvl(2-B FT?)

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Is that a referrence to the meteor that one shot Arceus?

 

[Blanked]

Funny Jellal later actually drops a legit meteor.

@Homu No, of course not lol.

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

Wall of text

Apologies for the delay, you see we have seen before in Fairy Tail where light has bent before. Since this is magic, it is not fair to say that because light bends, it isnt light, magic is the epitome of counter the laws of physics. Future Rogue himself says light and shadow bends to his will, and we have seen this done before as Midnight bends light to create his illusions, which is why it was broken by Erza who has a fake eye, not affected by the bending of light. If you want to see the fight, I can send you a link . I would like to know what other reasoning is ridiculous? Im sure we can debate about it.

We dont know how much of that power spread, and the spread only showed around the Kingdom of Fiore, one country, while Dragon Cry has the power to bust 10, meaning via logic Animus at least had the power to bus 9 countries, still continent busting power on top of having his own dragon magic which as we all know, is quite ridiculous.

Pre Time Skip Natsu you mean Tenrou or actual Time Skip? Because the dude during the Time Skip before Alvarex busted 2 mountain ranges while high, Lucy even confirms this came out in the newspaper. Other thna that, I await your reply

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

Wall of text

See this would be a good point if Wendy wasnt also in the anime. Her attribute is the Sky, yet no one says she manipulates the Sky she manipulates the wind. Slayers dont necessarily have to go by their name, but rather what they actually release, Erza said it was light, Sting said "The White Dragons LIGHT (not white) purifies all things" And we have future Rogue saying he bends light to his will, and the fact White is not an element, and if you go further down the document I proved Slayers release their actual element, I hope you will revisit that .

This was anime Natsu, but I dont see how debunking something by saying its inconistent is fair? Manga and anime are the same, other than some loose translations here and there. We also later see in the Alvarez arc against BlueNote Natsus attack literally dwarf a mountain, so I dont see why this is so strange to you.

I dont see why we cant use the anime, the anime just filled in the gaps of what happened during time skip something the manga didnt, put Hiro made very clear that was canon, this just cant be ignored because it has its fair share of feats for both Natsu and Gildarts.

I dont believe im sucking his dick, if I were I would have mentioned Jellal and baseless claims, however everything I say can easily be backed by scans if youd like. I just want to have a fair debate, I believe he and FT gets too much hate

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

Wall of text

Makarovs light is magical though, I have proof Slayers release their actual element. I came here with scans not to joke, I would like to have a constructive debate and be taken seriously is all

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

Sorry for the late replies guys, I just want to make sure everytime I reply to someone I have scans to back up my statements so I can make sure I dont sound idiotic

 

[Sheoth]

Sorry for the late replies guys, I just want to make sure everytime I reply to someone I have scans to back up my statements so I can make sure I dont sound idiotic

This is important.

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

@Sheoth thanks!

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

Sorry for the late replies guys, I just want to make sure everytime I reply to someone I have scans to back up my statements so I can make sure I dont sound idiotic

This is important.

I was wondering, if you had time, maybe you can overview my statements as well? My goal of this is to give Natsu the respect he deserves, I came in here thinking I have countered all possible debunks and I believe thus far I have done so, but I am still looking for more counters so the next time I come I can come with more proper explanations. I am looking for as much constructive criticism as possible before I write another discussion board.

 

[Theglassman12]

1. The Tower of Heaven didn't tank any of Etherion at all, it absorbed it due to being a lacrima, and Natsu only at a small rock of etherion, not the whole thing, otherwise there wouldn't be any land for the characters to stand on at all.

2. Just because Sting has light-based attacks, that doesn't mean that he's light speed since none of the feats he, or any other FT character has done are remotely close to light speed.

3. There's nothing to suggest that he's country level at all since none of the country level feats in FT have anything to do with Natsu at all. The closest thing possible to it is what I said in point 1, and again, he ate a small rock, not the whole tower.

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

Wall of text

I guess I came on the assumption that first you have to be able to tank something to absorb it. For example, Havok in Marvel was able to condense and control a black hole capable of swallowing Earth 616 Solar System inside Xorns head, without the help of anyone else. However, if I were to debate Cell (if his ki was energy Havok could absorb) vs Havok, I wouldnt say Havok could absorb his Kamehameha because Havok has been taken down by large island attacks before, despite being able to absorb attacks from Vulcan and Xorns black hole, he doesnt have the durability to take Cells Kamehameha. Furthermore, if the Lacrima can hold a country busting attack, surely it must have the durability to be able to hold the power? And also, Natsu pulled Erza out of Etheriones release (when all the lacrima released the power), overpowering the magical tornado, which would be another showing. And you must have forgotten when Natsu punched Jellal through the tower, causing it to break?

His attacks are light speed, and Natsu was able to dodge. As to why Natsu is as fast as I say he is, please read the google doc, I explained everything there and have scans to back everything up, manga and anime.

Wdym theres nothing to suggest hes country level? I am wondering, have you by any chance watched Dragon Cry? Please scroll above as I have been through this with another user as well further up the debate.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Forgot to address the Tower of Heaven thing earlier.

Yeah, it absorbed Etherion since it is essentially a giant Lacrima crystal. Didn't "tank" that blast. That was also unlikely to be a full powered Etherion blast as the Magic Council did not want to piss of a neighbouring kingdom. And Natsu ate a fist-sized chunk of a Lacrima tower that was hundreds of metres tall.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

@MaBoiAcnologia

Please stop quoting walls of text. It makes the thread look cluttered and is also a pain for those of us with shitty internet connections.

 

[Theglassman12]

Wdym theres nothing to suggest hes country level? I am wondering, have you by any chance watched Dragon Cry? Please scroll above as I have been through this with another user as well further up the debate.

You mean the movie where it had Natsu lose to a monster, yet he somehow wins by bullshit powerups, like EVERY FAIRY TAIL FIGHT since the timeskip???

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

@Soldier Blue apologies, I wont quote again. As for Tower of Heaven, I recently gave an analogy as to why the Tower of Heaven is impressive, however this feat is small compared to overpowering Animus which, alongside @Blanked , I said had to be at least the power of 9 Etherions he assimilated. Furthermore, the Magic Council was nervous, but Siegfriend (Jellal) convinced them, and I dont believe you can reduce the power of Etherion since this is a mechanism, and isnt dependant on magic of the members rather predisposed Lacrimas, meaning it is very unlikely the power was reduced.

 

[Sheoth]

I was wondering, if you had time, maybe you can overview my statements as well?

Ehhhh I'm not much into evaluation these days, sorry

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

@theglassman12 as we are discussing in another thread, this has been Hiros writing style ever since the beginning of FT? And also, Natsu didnt win via powerups, it is pretty clear that "Dragon Form" of his was an illusion, rather than an actual form. Which is why it is never seen in the Alvarez arc ever again.

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

@Sheoth well thank you very much for considering!!!

 

[Theglassman12]

You can argue as much as you want, no amount of PIS is letting FT characters reaching 6-B--6-A.

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

You can argue as much as you want, no amount of PIS is letting FT characters reaching 6-B--6-A.

I will argue as much as I will until someone will notice, as I do believe in this quite substantially. I am sorry I wasnt able to convince you though!

 

[Sheoth]

Alright, I decided to read through the speed thread because it's actually not that long and I'm also putting off real work I should be doing.

All I can say is that you obviously mean well, and have put clear thought and effort into your explanation, but it will unfortunately never be accepted on this site. The main reason for this is because your entire argument for Sting's attacks being lightspeed is simply founded on an incredibly shaky premise.

For starters, the laser argument: Keep in mind that fiction authors generally misuse the hell out of the physics of certain tropes, with lasers being one of the most prevalent examples, in simple attempts to advance their story or show off one characters abilities without taking into account how their real life counterparts actually function (Another example of this is black holes, which are rarely portrayed as realistic, if ever.). It is because these tropes are so frequently misused accross a variety of fictional franchises that we don't just give them the benefit of the doubt anymore, and they have to prove, through consistent showings or verbal explanations, that they are the real thing. Sting's laser, while it could be pure light, does neither of these. All the story does is exclaim that it's "A laser?" and nothing else.

The case is similar with Erza's analysis of the attack being "Light" (which is actually refering to this attack and not the laser attack). There's no further hint at all that would give the impression that Sting's Holy Ray attack, or any of his attacks, are lightspeed. Yes, I'm aware, "Ray=Light, isn't it obvious?" Just refer to what I said earlier about authors misusing real life phenomena in many fictional mediums without much thought about what they are actually prescribing. Speed feats are the most strictly judged of cases like this, especially cases involving of Light, Lightning, Lasers, etc., due to how much they are misused and misattributed.

Moving on to your counter arguments. Most people don't do these, so I personally appreciated the fact that you had them, but they fall short, and are contradictory to boot.

Your first counter argument, you mention how Sting's light is real light since other characters have shown that their magic exhibits the real life properties of whatever element they are manipulating, like Laxus' lightning, for example, displaying the attributes of real electricity. This was easily your best point. However, it falls apart when we see that Sting's light doesn't act like real light (I know, you have a counterpoint for this too which I will address in a moment). His light bends with no external source of gravity to bend it, and, most importantly, it physically interacts with people and objects, and creates things like explosions and seriously bruises people he uses it on, both of which normal light does not do. Light of higher frequencies and shorter wavelengths (X-Ray, Gamma, etc.) can kill people, but it does not create explosions n' shit, and seeing as Sting's "light" is clearly visible light since we can see it, this is automatically ruled out from the start. Now, the only other time light can physically harm you is if it is focused into something like a laser. Funny enough, Sting does have what was described as a "laser" as you already know, but again, it is very questionable due to authors sucking and the fact that only one of his attacks is described as a "laser" and other ones, like this for example, are not and are indefensible. Essentially from what I can see, his light doesn't hold similarity to actual light, which is exactly what I said earlier in regards to the laser shenanigans.

Now of course, this is fiction, and you at least acknowledge this and mention how "it's magic" and that it doesn't need to follow the rules of real physics. But, if that is the case, then WHY have an enitre counter point to the claim that "his light isn't real light" by using Laxus' lightning as an example of magic having realistic properties??? It's a complete 180 from what you were just talking about further up. Also, rogue mentioning how light "bends to his whim" is more than likely just him phrasing it as "it does what he says" since he can literally control it, and not because of a gravitational source. It's also generally important to note, we do count Laxus' lightning as real lightning partially for those scans you provided. Meaning his attacks move at lightning speed. So why then would people massively stronger and faster than sting that Laxus has faced fall victim to being struck by his attacks when they should supposedly be faster than Natsu who was in turn faster than Sting's "lightspeed" attacks? Either it's massive PIS and Sting's attacks are lightspeed, or Sting isn't lightspeed and Laxus' lightning still holds the best basis to judge the different character's speeds (which is admittedly very impressive on it's own, especially by HST standards.).

Point in case:

1. Authors suck and don't know real life, and Fairy Tail does an insufficient job showing that it is an exception to the rule.

2. Your whole premise is lacking overall and needs a sturdier foundation (The Erza argument actually wasn't half bad, but it wasn't enough to disprove the above point.).

3. Sting's light doesn't act like real light, and using the excuse that "it's fiction" merely contradicts part of your own reasoning (which further exemplifies point 1).

4. I'm exhausted so I may have missed something, but this is just my 2 cents on reading the thread, so good job.

 

[Blanked]

Bruh, time zones. I always sleep when people discuss, anyway gonna address everything very soon.

 

[Dank_Sinatre]

Funny thing is, the official translation doesn't say anything about light bending to him at all: https://i.imgur.com/AsDCFuG.jpg

Regardless your argument like stated above flips back and forth about how magic should be treated as real elements but because it's magic it can ignore the properties of real elements which just destroys your argument completely( it's either the real thing or it's not, you can't say it's real only to tell everyone to ignore how it breaks the laws of physics by saying "it's fiction), there's also the FTL, FTL+, FTL++ etc. That you keep using when someone blitzes another which is stacking iirc which is considered to over inflate results.

Another mistake is the constant reliance on the Anime which isn't cannon material as the anime adds things that didn't even happen in the manga such as early in the series the flute demon busted a Mountain in the anime yet the manga had no such thing, so the over use of natsu busting a Mountain range is null(not to mention those are pretty small Mountains given the size of his roar in comparison as during those times and as shown in that scene is only slightly larger than his own body), unless you have something explicitly stating those events to be cannon then they're non-canon, the only exception so far is the dragon cry movie but the Anime itself has loads of non-canon material that has no confirmation by mashima.

Tower of heaven didn't tank anything, it absorbed it which is completely different, animus spent all of that power to activate the spell which covered a a vast amount of land, afterwards he had to absorb power from the spell he activated while fighting natsu showing that he used it all up before natsu fought him meaning the 10x etherion doesn't scale to natsu at all and dips off into unquantifiable as we don't know how much energy animus was absorbing from the spell circles as they were still up and active after absorbing some of their power(if he had 10x etherion in his body then why would he need to absorb energy from the very spell he casted?)