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Natsu vs Tsuna (Redux)

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Reppuzan said:
"I can't rely on my eyes right now. Smell, sound, touch, I gotta predict his moves and focus!"
"But now I've seen all of your tricks. Your attack timing, your defense posture, and even the rhythm of your breathing. For example, when you attack your legs point to 11 o'clock."
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Hold up, for some reason my browser is blocking the images....
 
Natsu:4 (if @dragon voted as well)

Tsuna:3

@Bepo Natsu lost cause two people gave a vote for Tsuna and others went FRA without even bothering to read Natsu's profile and his abilities. As 80-90% of battle threads.
 
Tsuna primarily uses his petrification ability, via his box weapon of course, during the future arc, which is the exact version of Tsuna we're talking about, as it's before he obtains the oath flame and gains gravity manipulation. Tsuna has used his petrification ability against Torikabuto during choice as well as Byakuran, and nearly caught the latter with the technique from point blank range. Don't forget that there's also his cloak which would provide him excellent defense against many of Natsu's attacks.

As for Iemitsu one shotting Tsuna, a smiliar thing would have happened to Byakuran at that time as well. Byakuran wasn't any stronger than Tsuna during the curse of the rainbow arc. He was likely weaker, not by much, but certainly weaker. But this point is literally irrelevant as that is not the form of Tsuna we are using here. And while it's true that Tsuna has less experience than Natus, do keep in mind that Byakuran talked to parallel versions of himself who had defeated Tsuna, and Tsuna still managed to come out on top. That should speak for itself.

This is not to say that Tsuna should win the battle. Far from it. This is only to clarify a few misconceptions. The future arc is the only arc where Tsuna uses the purification element of the sky, as Nat-su (nuts), later on, is used in his vongola gear to unleash the XX-Burner, as opposed to simply sitting atop his shoulder. Xanxus is the fighter who makes the most frequent use of the sky flames petrification. But seeing as how this is future arc Tsuna, it stands to reason that he would use it at some point. Whether or not it would work is a completely different story entirely.
 
Reppuzan said:
Voting for Natsu for now. Tsuna's long-ranged attacks will have no effect since Natsu will just eat them. Tsuna is still ridiculously outclassed in terms of actual hand-to-hand combat experience if he decides to close in.
Natsu should take this.
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Yeah no

1. Neither Natsu nor Tsuna would be able to absorb each other flames without energy equalization.

2. Tsuna is not getting outclassed here because of some good reasons.

-Tsuna was able to knockdown Gokudera and Bianchi using their pressure point, which is an ability that require martial arts training.

-Tsuna was able to fight and knockdow Basil while he was no completely conscious, this also show how tsuna in a form in which he go mentally insane, was able to adapt and defeat basil who has more combat experience than him.

- Later Tsuna was able to keep a fight with a Hibari with 10 years of combat experience, while Hibari was stronger than Tsuna.

-After 3 months of training, Tsuna was able to fight byakuran who have knowledge of other dimensions. Also in the battle he had with byakuran, Tsuna show an awesome Attack and Defense tactic (Which contrast the training he had).

-And for the last one, He was able to match and keep a fight with Iemitsu who have years and years of experience(Even Reborn state then Iemistsu had 100 times more experience than Tsuna ) in hand to hand combat and was also stronger than Tsuna(Apart from the X-burner ) in addition he also have precognition via hyper-intuition.

3. Iemitsu one shot Tsuna because at that moment Tsuna was mentally holding back himself(Prove of that is what he say before fighting with him and what reborn said when he was fighting Iemitsu).
 
@Goku

Explain why that might be? The only times Natsu was unable to eat fire was he's dealing with his own fire and when he ran into Zancrow. He's eaten natural, artificial, magical, and living fire. He's even eaten lava, molten metal, and charcoal. He's also even eaten other things that don't pertain to his element, admittedly at the cost of sickness to himself. Tsuna only has experience with Dying Will Flames. It's a huge stretch to say that Natsu can't

Tsuna could only do that with his Hyper Intuition. Natsu can also read Tsuna's moves with his better senses and Gokudera isn't exactly a close-combat specialist. Dying Will Mode isn't being used here and Bianchi is a poison specialist, not a brawler like Natsu.

Basil isn't exactly the series' best fighter either.

Hibari's good, but Natsu is still more experienced due to facing people with dozens of years of combat experience.

I don't recall what Byakuran's experience with his alternate selves entailed, so unless you can provide examples it isn't exactly useful.

Natsu has beaten people with precog and mind-reading before, so that isn't exactly useful. In addition, Natsu will be reading all of Tsuna's moves right back.
 
@Repp


1: As for the precog thing, Cobra's precog is sound based meaning it works by reading his mind to predict the opponents movement.


2: Hyper Intuition can be fooled with things such as strong illusions yes. Does Natsu have any form of illusions? No.

3: As for the people claiming that Tsuna closing in on Natsu is the worst thing he can do is honestly ridiculous. You make it seem as that Tsuna has no fighting skills or experience. Natsu is a brawler throwing fire enhanced haymackers and such. If anything he'd have an advantage when it comes to CQC thanks due to his precog.


4: Tsuna can also absorb flames like Natsu.


5: When it comes to AP and Durability Tsuna has an advantage here judging by the profiles. There's no calcs i can see for Natsu putting him at mountain level. Only thing I'm seeing is his vaporizing a chunk of the ground feat which is only city level+


6:Experience. Natsu has a slight advantage here. It's not as much as people make it out to seem.
 
@Knight

Hyper Intuition isn't infallible. Otherwise Tsuna would never be struck when faced with a superior opponent.

Tsuna does have CQC experience, but he regularly gets the crap beaten out of him in close combat in literally every arc. I'm just saying that Natsu has a better track record in this regard.

Both the X-Burner and the XX-Burner, Tsuna's strongest moves, would be useless against Natsu. He has to close in. Even if he tried absorbing Natsu's flames, that wouldn't stop Natsu from punching him in the face first.

Natsu has a rating of 737 MT via the calc on his page. Please read it.

Natsu also has access to Lightning Flame Dragon Mode. Tsuna hasn't demonstrated the ability to absorb a mixture of fire and lightning at once to the best of my knowledge.
 
@Repp, just one thing.

The 737 MT is for Natsu's Fire Dragon King Mode. The version that is being used here is Natsu's post-second origin Dragon Force.

This is also why Natsu can't use Lightning Flame Dragon mode in this matchup.
 
@Captain

I don't see why he can't use his Lightning Flame Dragon techniques while in Dragon Force and he's still High 7-A in this mode regardless.
 
Precog based on reading the exact thoughts of ur opponent vs precog based on... being incredibly perceptive? I'm sure there's a clear gap in which is far more efficient in its functioning. And if hyper intuition can only be fooled via illusions does that mean Tsuna never takes a hit? If he doesnt then yes ur argument is sound, but if not that simply suggests that for all the hype it gets it isn't perfect and Tsuna can still be pressured by similarly skilled or superior opponents.

"Nastu is a brawler throwing fire enhanced hay makers and such" yes he is simply a brawler who simply throws haymakers and his experience is only slightly superior to Tsuna's. Because constantly fighting opponents with decades of more experience means nothing, being able to adapt to new and strange powers upon first contact makes u nothing but a brute, casually analysing and breaking down the combat styles of two different opponents at once while they were constantly powering up and himself holding back then proceeding to stomp both characters also only adds to the fact that he's a simple brawler- my point? Ur severely underselling what Natsu can do.

Also in regards to experience, from the outset of the series he's already been established as a seasoned fighter, even b4 he's introduction into Fairy tail whilst being a child he was already being trained by an ancient dragon in his fighting style, the experience gap is significant.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
But..haven't we already gone against those reasons?
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Does agreeing with someone go against the vs thread rules? Last time i checked no and its basically the same thing as the reasons of above spam everyone likes to use....
 
Davidsteel1 said:
Precog based on reading the exact thoughts of ur opponent vs precog based on... being incredibly perceptive? I'm sure there's a clear gap in which is far more efficient in its functioning. And if hyper intuition can only be fooled via illusions does that mean Tsuna never takes a hit? If he doesnt then yes ur argument is sound, but if not that simply suggests that for all the hype it gets it isn't perfect and Tsuna can still be pressured by similarly skilled or superior opponents.

"Nastu is a brawler throwing fire enhanced hay makers and such" yes he is simply a brawler who simply throws haymakers and his experience is only slightly superior to Tsuna's. Because constantly fighting opponents with decades of more experience means nothing, being able to adapt to new and strange powers upon first contact makes u nothing but a brute, casually analysing and breaking down the combat styles of two different opponents at once while they were constantly powering up and himself holding back then proceeding to stomp both characters also only adds to the fact that he's a simple brawler- my point? Ur severely underselling what Natsu can do.

Also in regards to experience, from the outset of the series he's already been established as a seasoned fighter, even b4 he's introduction into Fairy tail whilst being a child he was already being trained by an ancient dragon in his fighting style, the experience gap is significant.
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I mean, when you can match the best hxh fighter in series(in stage 1 dying will i might add) with a duster or something that says something....http://imgur.com/sBSenKG
 
@85100

No, I just find it illogical to continue repeating the same arguments after we addressed all of them.
 
@851

It's just tiring to address every single point only for others to completely ignore your points even after they've been addressed.
 
@851500 I'm not saying Tsuna isn't skilled neither am i saying Hibari isn't skilled, but being the best hxh fighter in ur verse doesn't automatically mean ur going to be even above average in other verses. Natsu is skilled and incredibly experienced a fact that everyone in his verse admits to but put him in say dragon ball (I'm not even talking power here just skill) and he's nothing special. It's the same here, certain things are just relative to the verse it's in.
 
@851

If you can come up with an original argument as to why Tsuna would win, then go ahead.
 
Davidsteel1 said:
@851500 I'm not saying Tsuna isn't skilled neither am i saying Hibari isn't skilled, but being the best hxh fighter in ur verse doesn't automatically mean ur going to be even above average in other verses. Natsu is skilled and incredibly experienced a fact that everyone in his verse admits to but put him in say dragon ball (I'm not even talking power here just skill) and he's nothing special. It's the same here, certain things are just relative to the verse it's in.
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I never said he was above natsu, im implying that tsuna is not that far behind natsu in terms of hxh, in fact i believe he's on the same level
 
Reppuzan said:
@851

If you can come up with an original argument as to why Tsuna would win, then go ahead.
Click to expand...
Then why don't the people who said reasons above for natsu do that then to? Ill make an orgnial agrument but it doesn't same fair that only i have to...
 
@851500 and I'm saying they aren't, Natsu has displayed far greater feats of skill than Tsuna. Tsuna has fought with the best hand to hand combatant in his verse with a duster in a significantly weaker form? That's cool. I could literally write a paragraph and a half of Natsu's best displays of skill and adaptability but at this point it would be redundant.
 
Just gonna point this out once more, anyone attempting to use reasoning for Tsuna that stems from the inheritance ceremony or curse of the rainbow arc would be using invalid evidence. The XX-Burner, gravity manipulation, fighting Iemtisu, all of that comes after the future arc. We are using future arc Tsuna, so please stick to that version. Strangely enough though, that is the version that uses all of his techniques, as seen in his fight against Byakuran.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iJhDFnFBvk Battle starts at 4:10. Just for anyone who is curious. He does indeed use the petrification, cloak, and gauntlet. I think there's been quite a bit posted for Natsu so I'll leave it to you all to decide what to do with everything you have.

Have fun. :)
 
I update votes count for this

Tsuna: 7 (Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff, GokuBold, Bepo4151, Litentric Teon, 851500, AstralKing7, Knightofannihilation666)

Natsu: 6 (WilliamShadow, Reppuzan, Captain Torch, Dragonmasterxyz, Davidsteel1, Newendigo)

Wow, this is so close.
 
Scartch that, something came up, i'll post the feats tommorrow


Just bringing this up again in case Peter forgot.
 
Reppuzan said:
@Goku
Explain why that might be? The only times Natsu was unable to eat fire was he's dealing with his own fire and when he ran into Zancrow. He's eaten natural, artificial, magical, and living fire. He's even eaten lava, molten metal, and charcoal. He's also even eaten other things that don't pertain to his element, admittedly at the cost of sickness to himself. Tsuna only has experience with Dying Will Flames. It's a huge stretch to say that Natsu can't

Tsuna could only do that with his Hyper Intuition. Natsu can also read Tsuna's moves with his better senses and Gokudera isn't exactly a close-combat specialist. Dying Will Mode isn't being used here and Bianchi is a poison specialist, not a brawler like Natsu.

Basil isn't exactly the series' best fighter either.

Hibari's good, but Natsu is still more experienced due to facing people with dozens of years of combat experience.

I don't recall what Byakuran's experience with his alternate selves entailed, so unless you can provide examples it isn't exactly useful.

Natsu has beaten people with precog and mind-reading before, so that isn't exactly useful. In addition, Natsu will be reading all of Tsuna's moves right back.
Click to expand...


Simple, Natsu, as you say, has shown the ability to absorb plenty of attacks and fire type magic attacks with non or minor problem, now here's the thing all of those attack, like Zancrow's fire magic were all made of magic, which is the why behind he can absorb so many thing, E.G, Natsu cannot absorb natural air, but he can still absorb Wendy's air magic, because is made of magic.

Now can you tell me if after Natsu eat molten metal, Charcoal or after eating lava, have he gotten any stronger? or has he recover any amount of mana? (But take into account that some materials can have magic inbound or can be made of it).

Tsuna's flames are made of refine, high density life force energy that take the form of fire, they are only call flames because they take the form of flames, his flames type is the Sky-Flame, So can Natsu eat/absorb life force energy? Because i don't recall Natsu doing it without the source being magical.


That's the thing, his Hyper Intuition is giving him knowledge in those kind of techniques which require martial arts training .|Precog+reaction>>>Better sense|. Gokudera neither Bianchi were the ones fighting, it was mukuro who was controlling their bodies, and yup mukuro is pretty much a hand to hand/weapon fighter. Dying will mode is a weaker and less developed form comparing it to the Hyper mode, the Hyper mode increase his reaction and senses, and because of that tsuna was able to unlock his Hyper intuition, Ability which given him the ability to adapt, fight and defeat basil.


Basil has show to handle himself and fight with Squalo, someone who is classified as one of the best swordsman in the world, squalo has mastered and defeat almost every sword style. Basil was also train by Iemitsu (Someone who have a LOT of experience and is technically an expert), and in the time he was training Tsuna, he shown way better ability at controlling his dying will energy(Until Tsuna learn to control it). He might not be the strongest or the best fighter, but his is for sure, a skilled fighter.


I'm pretty sure that Daemon Spade have hundreds of years of combat experience and also he dominate all the Vongola gears and Simon rings and even learn to create and control the 8th Flame or Night Flame.


There you go .


Which character in Fairy Tail that have precognition had fight with Natsu before?. For his fight with Cobra, he was able to win because of Cobra's weakness which is his ear, without that Natsu would have been defeated by Cobra.
 
IIRC, Tsuna's "flames" aren't actually flames so I don't think Natsu can eat it.

Anyways, Tsuna via precog and petrification.
 
@Goku

1) Yes, Natsu got stronger after eating molten metal. He went from struggling to fight the Vulcan to knocking it out in one hit. Magic in Fairy Tail is made from Ethernano particles that are converted into Magic. I don't see how Dying Will Flames would be somehow immune to being devoured if they take the form of fire in any way imaginable, since Natsu has also eaten everything from sticky to cold fire. So the properties of the fire don't exactly matter 99% of the time.

2) Given the fact that Tsuna still gets his ass kicked all the time, I still don't think Hyper Intuition is as good as you're making it out to be. Even with Hyper Dying Will mode active, he still couldn't put two-and-two together to determine that the mysterious hitman was actually Reborn's adult form.

3) Natsu also has a lot of experience fighting people with more experience with Iemitsu (i.e. Gildarts, Bluenote, Brain e.t.c.).
 
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