Nasuverse: Noble Phantasm Revisions

[TheUnshakableOne]

Why don't we just make all the servants that fought 3rd form sefar 2-A, or how about we call all Side Stories that aren't the main story an Outlier. Since everyone and their mom fight Sefar in the side stories, and fack the strike through.

 

[LehenDuo]

Why don't we just make all the servants that fought 3rd form sefar 2-A, or how about we call all Side Stories that aren't the main story an Outlier. Since everyone and their mom fight Sefar in the side stories, and fack the strike through.

That's like side stepping the real problem - the 2-A has no support.
No actual time line has ever been destroyed by any character, the only thing with such capacity is the culling phenomenon. The only one to do something similar was True Sefar, who destroyed MOON CELLs timelines, which is like pressing DELETE on your minecraft world/saying a human is 5-A because he smashed a PC running minecraft.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Because the first option makes no sense, and the second is just lazy.

Sefar not being 2-A but having 2-A absorption, until she gets bigger, makes perfect sense though. She's not a full threat until she grows big enough, but dealing any damage because of her absorption is hard. It fits with her skills, it fits with the circumstances, it also fits perfectly why Excalibur, which she can't absorb, and Vasavi Shakti, who is just an unga bunga blow that still deals damage, can kill her while she's still weak.

All the pieces fit together, and it leans on information we already know about Sefar. Why sidestep the issue instead of just making logical sense out of the mess? But hey, if my answer doesn't make logical sense, I would love to hear any issues.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

That's like side stepping the real problem - the 2-A has no support.
No actual time line has ever been destroyed by any character, the only thing with such capacity is the culling phenomenon. The only one to do something similar was True Sefar, who destroyed MOON CELLs timelines, which is like pressing DELETE on your minecraft world/saying a human is 5-A because he smashed a PC running minecraft.

Think about it. The side stories are filled with non-sense.

Medusa fighting and beating Nots gawain.

cu beating Gilgamesh

Lu Bu giving NOTS Gawain a hard time, and overpowering him later.

Gilgamesh beats artoria easily

Artoria beats Gilgamesh, and Iskander at once and defeats Sefar.

Iskander and Heroic Spirit Altera are fighting equally while going " Full power" but Regalia nero and Tamamo have a hard time fighting her right?

Lu Bu fights and defeats all of Altera generals. Jeanne, Gilgamesh, Iskander, Altera herself

Karna using his NP on Sefar was a cliff hanger. We don't know what happens after that.

Why make an exception for 1 or 2 of the side stories when they are literally all filled with questionable thingies?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

For the same reason we, as a wiki, have no issue disregarding the pokemon encyclopedia statements that make no sense, but using the ones that do.

You don't discard the whole thing if there's issues. It is a canon entry no matter what, so things that make sense should be fair game. There's a reason the slogan for this site may as well be "case by case".

 

[LehenDuo]

Think about it. The side stories are filled with non-sense.

EXTRA is filled with non-sense /s
But as Lancelot said, it's not a Nasuverse thing, many other verses, specially Game verses, are riddled with stupidity, for plot reasons, game balance reasons, etc

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Doesn't the ones that are accepted as being relevant end up contradicting the lore of the main story? Like if Karna could do that to Sefar why didn't that happen in the main story, and why did he have so much trouble everywhere else? Does that still count?

 

[PsychoWarper]

The Main Story ends up contradicting the main story, this is Nasu if we ignored every piece of Nasu lore cause its contradictory then wed have ti delete it from the wiki.

Also where does Karna have trouble? Also this is specifically for one NP which Karna can use once before dying so he doesnt just pull it out all the time.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I mean, he never fights Sefar until the end. None do, if my memory is right.

The small Altera is just a Servant, the actual Sefar is the big one. And Archimedes does all he can to keep her safe for his plans.

Edit: The issue with Karna is that the only thing he ever kills that can be called a "God" or similar in power is Sefar, who as I explained, shouldn't be 2-A at the moment where they killed her.

 

[LehenDuo]

Doesn't the ones that are accepted as being relevant end up contradicting the lore of the main story? Like if Karna could do that to Sefar why didn't that happen in the main story, and why did he have so much trouble everywhere else? Does that still count?

Because EXTRA Sefar is literally an ant compared to True Sefar

What's being contradicted is the scaling people assume, which doesn't make much sense given there are a number of 2-As in a verse that is, being nice, ''low'' 2-B and in which planet busting shit is top top top tier that's reserved for Aletheia Machine Gods/gimmicks such as Dynamics of an Asteroid in a no-CF World.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Lehen, again, I don't care about it being 2-B or 2-A right now. That's not what I am arguing, not the main topic I am tackling, and it has nothing to do with the thread so is best not to derail with it.

What I am talking about, is the people that DO scale to 2-A. The issue is the scaling to it, whether is 2-A or 2-B. And some of the NPs, like VS and Adam, scale to them by the association which is part of the issue, and why I am talking about the problem in the first place. Let's please keep any "2-A ain't true" discussion off of this, since this is mainly about the NPs.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Alright so quick question involving VS, for the “God Killing Power” thing why would the “Gods” not just be assumed to be Hindu Gods? VS is a Divine Weapon from Hindu Myth, given to a Hindu Hero by a top Hindu God, so why would it not just be assumed that it’s referring to the Gods of the very Texture of the World it comes from? It was literally a weapon used by a Hindu God so that doesnt seem like a stretch at all (imo).

 

[LehenDuo]

Alright so quick question involving VS, for the “God Killing Power” thing why would the “Gods” not just be assumed to be Hindu Gods? VS is a Divine Weapon from Hindu Myth, given to a Hindu Hero by a top Hindu God, so why would it not just be assumed that it’s referring to the Gods of the very Texture of the World it comes from? It was literally a weapon used by a Hindu God so that doesnt seem like a stretch at all (imo).

Don't know if I follow you
The only ''Hindu God'' we have seen is Godjuna, if you mean it for scaling purposes, and he is a Composite Hindu God, so not exactly normal
I think most people would agree that, standard, it would use Hindu Gods for reference, but there's none.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Yeah, but we don't know literally anything about the Hindu Gods.

The most we can go off on is Arjuna Alter, and he is a mingle of each and every one of them at the same time.

The best I can see VS getting is "Possibly (whatever tier the top gods are)" by assuming that it can kill any God, no matter how strong. But even that is dubious because the strongest thing it is shown killing is Sefar, who was not 2-A at the time. And just assuming that "can kill Gods" applies to every God, no matter how much more powerful they are than other Gods, is difficult when we have practically no feats to back it up.

So, as always, the default is the best feat we see- Sefar getting murdered.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I have to work so I cant respond to this rn, I can later once im off tho

 

[LehenDuo]

And just assuming that "can kill Gods" applies to every God, no matter how much more powerful they are than other Gods, is difficult when we have practically no feats to back it up.

''Killing every god'' would mean killing Chaos, which is >> LB King Zeus, so yeah, pretty much confirmed it's not

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

A little unrelated Lehen but, do tell me, is the Kanji that Vasavi uses "God" or "Divine Spirit"? If you do know at least.

I remember there was a clear distinction made, even in Olympus. They mention Arjuna as a Divine Spirit who could be affected by the lessening of his faith, while the Machine Greek Gods, being Gods, are fully self-sustained existences that have no such concern.

 

[LehenDuo]

A little unrelated Lehen but, do tell me, is the Kanji that Vasavi uses "God" or "Divine Spirit"? If you do know at least.

I remember there was a clear distinction made, even in Olympus. They mention Arjuna as a Divine Spirit who could be affected by the lessening of his faith, while the Machine Greek Gods, being Gods, are fully self-sustained existences that have no such concern.

Neither, or both.
Anti-God is 対神.
Divine Spirits and the ''Gods'' as in Olympus both use the same 神 + __ (something)(can't remember how it was for true Gods, but it wasn't just ''kami'', it had a hiragana character attached to it) EDIT: Twelve Machinge Gods gods are 神々, which is like 神+(repeat last kanji), or kamigami (k -> g in the middle of words for phonetical reasons) - which after some consulting, would be the actual best japanese way to say ''God'' as you would normally understand it in english, as 神 by itself includes ''natural spirits'' and a lot of other concepts, as pretty much anything can be 神

It's not really defined.
The same kanjis, 対神, are also used for Enkidu, which worked on Herakles, a demigod, which would suggest it's reading would be more along the lines of Anti-Divine than necessarily Anti-God (literal)

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Then yeah, that can't be used. If it was outright Anti-God, scaling it off to one of the standard Olympus 12 would be easier.

 

[LehenDuo]

One thing that I remember, though, is that the use of 神々isn't really always respected.
ZETE skills use 神 normally, for example. (He shares Divine Core fo the Chief God with Quirinus)
Odysseus blessing uses 神々 though.

Edit: Found the chapter the distinction is made

 

[Regidian]

For the excalibur can't be 2-A it's tell where? It's excalibut that have kill the sefar that one on earth (not the weakened onre) + we haven't see a fully unsealed excalibur even more not one that have the boost against alien treat againt the world

 

[LehenDuo]

For the excalibur can't be 2-A it's tell where? It's excalibut that have kill the sefar that one on earth (not the weakened onre) + we haven't see a fully unsealed excalibur even more not one that have the boost against alien treat againt the world

Holmes: ''Yes, concerning the destruction of this planet. To start with the conclusion, that is actually possible."

Da Vinci: ''Wa-Wait a second, wait, wait! That is impossible! With the Safety system that this planet possess, it is not possible for this planet to be destroyed completely."

Holmes: "Certainly, that is correct. This planet that possess a continuous history has overcame many dangers. Putting aside the inhuman beings that came from the outside (space), destroying this planet with something that is born from the inside is close to impossible. That is why, to destroy this planet, first you should overturn that basic concept. That is, something that the Lion King tried to do. And then, what that Edison tried to do using the power of the Holy Grail."

So, you have to assume A) Excalibur > Rhongomyniad being used by a Divine Spirit, B) Excalibur > Holy Grail, C) Completely disregard Ea being the strongest NP or say Ea is 2-A also, D) Multiple that by a billion times a billion and then by infinite times, as an attack that could damage the planet is like 5-C at least, and between 5-C -> 3-A you have a 10^60 gap, and between 3-A to 2-A literally infinity.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense...
Let's completely disregard the fact Velber has a skill that says they are essentially immune to 99% of attacks (spells) and can only be hurt by brute force magical power, which explains that completely and doesn't require absurd^infinite level of assumptions.

 

[Regidian]

For rhongomyniad and excalibur we have neither see them in full power (even more when excalibur can only be at fp when facing thing like sephar)

Excalibur was made for protect the planet and he gain boost when facing ennemy that are threat to the planet litteraly the description in his thing


All your text doesn't change that if true sephar is 2-A then the excalibur that have kill him should be the same except if now excalibur bypass dura or that true sephar have shitty dura

And don'tt even know why you use your first quoting since this excalibur was use for protect the earth not destroy it

 

[Regidian]

For rhongomyniad and excalibur we have neither see them in full power (even more when excalibur can only be at fp when facing thing like sephar)

Excalibur was made for protect the planet and he gain boost when facing ennemy that are threat to the planet litteraly the description in his thing


All your text doesn't change that if true sephar is 2-A then the excalibur that have kill him should be the same except if now excalibur bypass dura or that true sephar have shitty dura

And don'tt even know why you use your first quoting since this excalibur was use for protect the earth not destroy it

And EA being the strongest NP is a thing that i personnaly think is not even available anymore, it's was tell a long time ago and better np have appear for me

 

[Regidian]

And the damaging really the planet in nasuverse should be more than 5-C since the the planet count all the layer of earth so should count the reverse side of the world that have the layer of divine spirit, the genesis, avalon etc

 

[LehenDuo]

All your text doesn't change that if true sephar is 2-A then the excalibur that have kill him should be the same except if now excalibur bypass dura or that true sephar have shitty dura

Yeah, no.
I will not enter in the 2-A is a lie again, but Sefar durability isn't durability, is absorption. So, given the fact Excalibur is explicitly said to not be absorbable by Sefar, that durability doesn't apply.

And don'tt even know why you use your first quoting since this excalibur was use for protect the earth not destroy it

You do understand 2-A means destroying infinite realities/timelines, right? As in, universe sized ones
The quote I above says planet busting is something that needs to, first, to be even possible, bypass the rules of reality, if you are a ''earthling''
Add to that, the only real planet busting reference in Nasuverse is Artemis Aletheia full power (in a LB), or at least as far as I can remember.
0 planet busting level feats (while, each time one of the supposed 2-As appear, at least 1 anti-feat)

 

[Regidian]

Not really the quoting you say it's for destroy the Earth a thing that have is own protection and have all is shitty layer you need to not be a earthling (and this apply only if you try to destroy the earth) technically if it was a other planet you will not have the problem, it's like tell if my house have 24D spatial protection you can't be house lvl because you can't destroy it.....

And so you tell that sephar have no durability outside his absorbtion? Not because you absorb thing that you don't have durability, don't remember that excalibur was the only np that attack with brute magical power happy to know it

 

[LehenDuo]

Not really the quoting you say it's for destroy the Earth a thing that have is own protection and have all is shitty layer you need to not be a earthling (and this apply only if you try to destroy the earth) technically if it was a other planet you will not have the problem, it's like tell if my house have 24D spatial protection you can't be house lvl because you can't destroy it.....

Again, feats... One feat that proves that.
You are saying ''we have no planet level feat but the attack is obviously 2-A''... I mean, that's ridiculous
And Textures wouldn't be AP, they would be reality warping or something like that, ''Anti-World'' type of shit
If we just go with ''you can make assumptions'', each and every planet can very well have the same safety measures, as Earth is the shittiest of planets, so incompetent if couldn't produce a Aristoteles even after Crimson Moon help. The ''oh so powerful'' SEFAR is but a random unit sent by the Umbral Star and totally owned everything Earth could come up with (and the 12 original Aletheias, which Earth couldn't come up with)

And so you tell that sephar have no durability outside his absorbtion? Not because you absorb thing that you don't have durability

But the fact you absorb something dismisses said types of attacks from scaling to your real Durability (which would be appliable to any type of attack)

 

[Regidian]

Galactic Meteor Sword: C
A power given to Saber that can destroy even stars. Also known as the sword that absolutely kills Sabers. Its attack is super effective against Sabers, so would it be an exaggeration to say that she is the greatest Saber of all?

Can be count as reference of planet buster thing here?

We have too the thing of kiara being a entity of the scall of the universe that can easily manage the system solar, shiva who have flame that can burn the universe, amaterasu being a treat to the 3k world(thrilhiscom don't recall excatly the name) etc

 

[Regidian]

Prova what that the earth have protection system? You prove it yourself, that the planet have many layer ? Except if you have not played the game you should know, that for what we know the other planet don't have safety system or layer? Because it's was tell nowhere

Da Vinci: ''Wa-Wait a second, wait, wait! That is impossible! With the Safety system that this planet possess, it is not possible for this planet to be destroyed completely."

 

[LehenDuo]

Galactic Meteor Sword: C
A power given to Saber that can destroy even stars. Also known as the sword that absolutely kills Sabers. Its attack is super effective against Sabers, so would it be an exaggeration to say that she is the greatest Saber of all?

Can be count as reference of planet buster thing here?

We have too the thing of kiara being a entity of the scall of the universe that can easily manage the system solar, shiva who have flame that can burn the universe, amaterasu being a treat to the 3k world(thrilhiscom don't recall excatly the name) etc

MHX was just as strong as a regular servant. If she has the power to destroy stars, but is matched by Servants, Servants would have the same power... (And she's a joke character, in a joke event, made in referencce to Star Wars...)

EXTRA is a video-game of a video-game, me deleting my Minecraft world doesn't make me 5-C
And Moon Cell couldn't handle infinity in 4D, so 2-A would be a lie

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Da Vinci has two entirely different quotes, though... One where she's discussing with Sherlock that the safeguards of the planet make that impossible, and another in which she simply says no Noble Phantasm has that potential destructive capacity in the first place.

One is a conversation with Holmes, another is a conversation on the subject of NPs having that capacity.

Statement 1 (Da Vinci): No NP has enough firepower to destroy the planet.

Statement 2 (Sherlock Holmes): There are safeties that will stop anyone from Earth who try to destroy the planet.

That's basically it.

Can you drop the genuinely worthless point, Regi? You have nothing to prove Excalibur scales to the top tiers, nor anything to prove the Sefar Saber kills is 2-A either. My explanation pretty much disproves that, Sefar's own second skill which explains in the clearest words possible that her power grows with her size disproves that. You are conjecturing on the equivalent of smoke and mirrors and it is an honest waste of time.

 

[Regidian]

Bruh if you don't destroy layer by using reality warping thing it's will not be reality warping thing, they are proper space-time(for the one that have time at last) or destroy the earth will be not count as ap since is just made just of texture and a core

 

[Regidian]

I don't talk about the sefar saber kill, i talk about the earth one the one that have kill pratically all the god in proper human history, it's was too killed by excalibur

Da Vinci has two entirely different quotes, though... One where she's discussing with Sherlock that the safeguards of the planet make that impossible, and another in which she simply says no Noble Phantasm has that potential destructive capacity in the first place.

One is a conversation with Holmes, another is a conversation on the subject of NPs having that capacity.


That's basically it.

Can you drop the genuinely worthless point, Regi? You have nothing to prove Excalibur scales to the top tiers, nor anything to prove the Sefar Saber kills is 2-A either. My explanation pretty much disproves that, Sefar's own second skill which explains in the clearest words possible that her power grows with her size disproves that. You are conjecturing on the equivalent of smoke and mirrors and it is an honest waste of time.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Texture and a core... even though Holmes explained there is a planet under all the textures...

Holmes: The Tower stands at the end of the world, and its administrator wields the lance. The question is, why does the Tower pierce the planet? There is a theory that our world — the human world — is nothing more than one of the textured layers that wrap the surface of the planet, like a carpet. To the planet, this is the consciousness of the intelligent lifeforms that reign supreme. In other words, our physical laws. The “carpet” that maintains the laws of physics is our world. It is stitched to the planet so that it does not peel away.

I will now proceed to disregard whatever you say until you start talking about something with common sense.

 

[Regidian]

You have tell that the extra sephar cell is not 2-A but the one that have fall in earth is 2-A (if we follow the 2-A thing)?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I don't talk about the sefar saber kill, i talk about the earth one the one that have kill pratically all the god in proper human history, it's was too killed by excalibur

Oh, you mean the one killed in ancient times under completely unknown circumstances, which can't scale in any way to Arthuria because we are freaking tired of being shown what Excalibur can do while wielded by her, and it has never been 2-A?

Do you also want to scale Summer Raikou's Vajra to that level since it is Indra's Vajra, even though it has never showcased such a capacity, at all? That's the kind of thing you are arguing.

 

[Regidian]

For what i remember the original planet is called the core too sometime

 

[Regidian]

I don't have tell to scall this to arturia no? (Even tough we never see her use at fp, and probaly we never see it) Just that excalibur itself can have this tier since it's was tell that was an insignifant human that have wield it in that time

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Under what conditions can it have this tier? Why does it have it here and not there? Did it have this tier when it killed Sefar? Did it not? Based on what?

It is all baseless conjecture that we have no way of answering, so whatever we arrive at is gonna be a leap of logic. So by Occam's Razor, the most sensible option that can come to mind is disregard that tangent, as it takes many less assumptions to just think Sefar is not that durable until she's bigger, so Saber Venus and Arthuria being able to kill her makes sense, and by consequence, VS shouldn't be 2-A.

Don't overcomplicate the subject, it is a genuine waste of time.