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(Nasuverse) 1/Removal of Tier 1 for Fate/Extra..
- Thread starter Wankbreaker
- Start date
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- fate fate extra ccc fgo nasuverse
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Alright first thing first I got permission from @Maverick_Zero_X to reply on this thread
This seems to be the main argument here in order to remove the tier 1 rating so I'll deal with this since I'm mostly knowledgeable about fgo. "Goetia not being able to destroy Avalon "
Before anything else the first thing I want to say is that Wankbreaker is completely ignoring the context of the story. Goetia didn't destroy earth or Avalon as his intentions were to go back in time and reshape the planet and he was extremely busy collecting magical energy and preparing his human interaction order ritual
He out right says that he has no interest in stopping Chaldea unless they deal with all singularities
London singularity:
"Unexpectedly, Solomon decides to simply leave, revealing he had confronted Chaldea on a simple whim, seeing them as no threat whatsoever. Despite having lost four Grails, his plan is not threatened unless they can retrieve all seven. He warns Chaldea that he will only deal with them personally if they manage to retrieve all seven Grails"
Without Solomon goetia had no reason to believe he would lose
A few things really
1) A couple of characters including Goetia can destroy earth including Avalon
Goetia even say's this himself that his np would pierce the planet, piercing includes Avalon
Goetia's words:
Grand temple of time(section 12):
"That hellish moment continues. As she(mash) continues to block the heat that would pierce the planet "
And no it's not referring to the textures as weaker characters than Goetia can completely destroy earth including Avalon
2) Oberon vortigern/Insect of the Abyss (pls note that Vortigern only has a Ruler/pretender level saint graph that is no way near Goetia's second planetary)
Lb6 section 29-30:
Vortigern: Though as you can see, it's actually a conceptual
insect an infinite hole that's going to destroy Britain and turn the planet inside out.Soon, the entire planet will be gone, as though it never existed.
Altria
奈落の虫がブリテンの外に拡がる前に、
ここでその源を滅ぼします。 We're going to destroy the Abyssal Worm here at its source before it can spread beyond Britain.
(And yes it would have destroyed PHH and Avalon from PHH completely)
Sion
これはペーパームーンによる惑星地表の観測図と、
観測レンズ・シバによる予測結果です。 This is the Paper Moon's planetary observation grid, and these are Sheba's predictions.
シオン
Sion
ブリテン異聞帯は24時間後、消滅。
その消滅は津波のように地球全土に伝播でんぱ。 According to this, the British Lostbelt will vanish in about twenty-four hours, and when it does, it will also engulf the rest of the planet like an enormous tsunami.
シオン
Sion
惑星は寿命を迎え、自らの重力に耐えられず圧壊。
この惑星は重力崩壊を迎えて無に帰します。 Earth will then crumble under the weight of its own gravity, utterly annihilating the planet.
シオン
Sion
『異星の神』の疑似ブラックホールとは違う、
本当の『星の終わり』です。 We are not talking about one of the Foreign God's pseudo black holes. This would well and truly be the end of Earth.
シオン
Sion
地球白紙化という『人類のバッドエンド』を上書きする、
『人類のデッドエンド』というワケです。 This will overwrite humanity's current bad ending the Bleached Earth Phenomenon with a completely dead end.
3) Zeus is also canonically weaker than Goetia and these are his functionalities
World Discipline Keraunos Function Limiter :
"Anti-Planet Destruction Mechanism Limiter
Anti-Star System Annihilation Mechanism Limiter
Anti-Space-Time Attack Mechanism Limiter
Anti-Concept Shattering Mechanism Limiter"
(Once again Zeus's original plan was to take Olympus with him and flee to the sea of stars / also the fact that chaos wanted to bite a chuck out of earth for supplies but Zeus was clearly pissed once we got in his way as he said
Zeus: humans and gods are nothing alike
Begone everything )
This also doesn't seems like texture
4) KIARA SESSYOIN can bypass Avalon and become the planet's brain
SE.RA.PH interlude:
Kiara : "Going to sink down with SE.RA.PH as it passes through the crust, upper mantle, and lower mantle...
...on its way to Earth's core? Yes!
And once it arrives there, Beast III will become Earth's brain
I'm surprised, Passionlip. I did not think you capable of understanding such things.
Everything up to this point has merely been foreplay.
Once SE.RA.PH reaches Earth's core, I will become one with the planet.
Or rather, this planet will become my body.
And when it does, I will finally save humanity.
Sessyoin Kiara I will bring an end to all the pain and suffering in the world. I will use seven billion lives for the purpose of individual salvation."
So she made seraphix into her body and was going to penetrate through the earth and reach the core to become the planet's brain.
Again in order to reach the core you have to bypass Avalon.
Once again it's not physical layers as Albion was able to reach the entrance of Avalon simply by digging through the earth in lb 6
So saying Goetia can't destroy Avalon when he never intended to is completely wrong
(Also we've already debated this saying lord Camelot blocked AAS so Avalon should be able to doesn't prove anything as both are completely different types of defenses and Lord Camelot> Avalon in terms of apparent feats unless you can provide better feats for Avalon)
This also doesn't prove anything Avalon can block a very specific type of abilities (5 magics) great but how does that change the fact that characters like vortigern can completely destroy earth
By your logic Zelretch who defeated Crimson moon would be weaker than Vortigern since 2nd magic can't destroy earth but lie like vortigern can, but we all know that's not the case
Just simply blocking 5 magics or ea doesn't mean that both are weaker than Avalon (it's just that they are a bad matchup against Avalon)
Also Gilgamesh did defeat Kiara in CCC
Again doesn't mean anything since
koyanskaya of darkness says this about Kiara:
"Many humans may have reached godhood, but I never imagined I would ever meet a human who surpassed gods.
Actually, hold on a minute...
Her mental structure can't even be expressed in hyper dimensions! What the heck...she's making an entire universe in her stomach!?
Many humans reached godhood, but I didn't think I'd see the day I'd meet a human who surpassed godhood. Wait, I have a bigger question. What the HELL is wrong with mental composition? Not even a 4D cube'd be enough to give us a good visual representation of that. Who had the big idea of letting her build a universe inside her belly?"
Koyanskaya of Darkness/Dialogue
The following Servants have related dialogues to this Servant (sorted alphabetically): This translation was taken from a Reddit user ComunCoutinho. Thanks for all the hard work.
fategrandorder.fandom.com
Saint graph does infact decides power and magical energy since stellar saint graph=magical energy comparable to a star but abilities has nothing to do with saint graphs
Yeah no care to elaborate why'd you came to this conclusion
Do tell how would vortigern with his Ruler/pretender level saint graph can easily destroy Avalon but tiamat who's 4d at best according to you can't (again 2nd planetary saint graph, stronger than Vortigern)
(If anyone needs more context or proof of all the things I posted here I'm happy to oblige
anyway this whole part of downgrading everything below Goetia because he didn't intentionally destroy Avalon doesn't make any sense whatsoever)
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Sorry for making another comment but This bb scan about Kiara being equivalent to solar system isn't loading for me for some reason
So just wanted to let you guys know
So just wanted to let you guys know
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Your quote didn't work.
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No clue why it's happening
Is my first comment all good? Besides that ?
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Your first comment looks fine, for the most part.No clue why it's happening
Is my first comment all good? Besides that ?
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Idk if I specified, if I didn't I will now: based on everything thus far, I disagree with the Tier 1 removal, even disregarding the discussion rule (which imo is a lot to disregard but I digress)
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- #49
Alright first thing first I got permission from @Maverick_Zero_X to reply on this thread
This seems to be the main argument here in order to remove the tier 1 rating so I'll deal with this since I'm mostly knowledgeable about fgo. "Goetia not being able to destroy Avalon "
Before anything else the first thing I want to say is that Wankbreaker is completely ignoring the context of the story. Goetia didn't destroy earth or Avalon as his intentions were to go back in time and reshape the planet and he was extremely busy collecting magical energy and preparing his human interaction order ritual
He out right says that he has no interest in stopping Chaldea unless they deal with all singularities
London singularity:
"Unexpectedly, Solomon decides to simply leave, revealing he had confronted Chaldea on a simple whim, seeing them as no threat whatsoever. Despite having lost four Grails, his plan is not threatened unless they can retrieve all seven. He warns Chaldea that he will only deal with them personally if they manage to retrieve all seven Grails"
Without Solomon goetia had no reason to believe he would lose
A few things really
1) A couple of characters including Goetia can destroy earth including Avalon
Goetia even say's this himself that his np would pierce the planet, piercing includes Avalon
Goetia's words:
Grand temple of time(section 12):
"That hellish moment continues. As she(mash) continues to block the heat that would pierce the planet "
And no it's not referring to the textures as weaker characters than Goetia can completely destroy earth including Avalon
2) Oberon vortigern/Insect of the Abyss (pls note that Vortigern only has a Ruler/pretender level saint graph that is no way near Goetia's second planetary)
Lb6 section 29-30:
Vortigern: Though as you can see, it's actually a conceptual
insect an infinite hole that's going to destroy Britain and turn the planet inside out.Soon, the entire planet will be gone, as though it never existed.
Altria
奈落の虫がブリテンの外に拡がる前に、
ここでその源を滅ぼします。 We're going to destroy the Abyssal Worm here at its source before it can spread beyond Britain.
(And yes it would have destroyed PHH and Avalon from PHH completely)
Sion
これはペーパームーンによる惑星地表の観測図と、
観測レンズ・シバによる予測結果です。 This is the Paper Moon's planetary observation grid, and these are Sheba's predictions.
シオン
Sion
ブリテン異聞帯は24時間後、消滅。
その消滅は津波のように地球全土に伝播でんぱ。 According to this, the British Lostbelt will vanish in about twenty-four hours, and when it does, it will also engulf the rest of the planet like an enormous tsunami.
シオン
Sion
惑星は寿命を迎え、自らの重力に耐えられず圧壊。
この惑星は重力崩壊を迎えて無に帰します。 Earth will then crumble under the weight of its own gravity, utterly annihilating the planet.
シオン
Sion
『異星の神』の疑似ブラックホールとは違う、
本当の『星の終わり』です。 We are not talking about one of the Foreign God's pseudo black holes. This would well and truly be the end of Earth.
シオン
Sion
地球白紙化という『人類のバッドエンド』を上書きする、
『人類のデッドエンド』というワケです。 This will overwrite humanity's current bad ending the Bleached Earth Phenomenon with a completely dead end.
3) Zeus is also canonically weaker than Goetia and these are his functionalities
World Discipline Keraunos Function Limiter :
"Anti-Planet Destruction Mechanism Limiter
Anti-Star System Annihilation Mechanism Limiter
Anti-Space-Time Attack Mechanism Limiter
Anti-Concept Shattering Mechanism Limiter"
(Once again Zeus's original plan was to take Olympus with him and flee to the sea of stars / also the fact that chaos wanted to bite a chuck out of earth for supplies but Zeus was clearly pissed once we got in his way as he said
Zeus: humans and gods are nothing alike
Begone everything )
This also doesn't seems like texture
4) KIARA SESSYOIN can bypass Avalon and become the planet's brain
SE.RA.PH interlude:
Kiara : "Going to sink down with SE.RA.PH as it passes through the crust, upper mantle, and lower mantle...
...on its way to Earth's core? Yes!
And once it arrives there, Beast III will become Earth's brain
I'm surprised, Passionlip. I did not think you capable of understanding such things.
Everything up to this point has merely been foreplay.
Once SE.RA.PH reaches Earth's core, I will become one with the planet.
Or rather, this planet will become my body.
And when it does, I will finally save humanity.
Sessyoin Kiara I will bring an end to all the pain and suffering in the world. I will use seven billion lives for the purpose of individual salvation."
So she made seraphix into her body and was going to penetrate through the earth and reach the core to become the planet's brain.
Again in order to reach the core you have to bypass Avalon.
Once again it's not physical layers as Albion was able to reach the entrance of Avalon simply by digging through the earth in lb 6
So saying Goetia can't destroy Avalon when he never intended to is completely wrong
(Also we've already debated this saying lord Camelot blocked AAS so Avalon should be able to doesn't prove anything as both are completely different types of defenses and Lord Camelot> Avalon in terms of apparent feats unless you can provide better feats for Avalon)
This also doesn't prove anything Avalon can block a very specific type of abilities (5 magics) great but how does that change the fact that characters like vortigern can completely destroy earth
By your logic Zelretch who defeated Crimson moon would be weaker than Vortigern since 2nd magic can't destroy earth but lie like vortigern can, but we all know that's not the case
Just simply blocking 5 magics or ea doesn't mean that both are weaker than Avalon (it's just that they are a bad matchup against Avalon)
Also Gilgamesh did defeat Kiara in CCC
Again doesn't mean anything since
koyanskaya of darkness says this about Kiara:
"Many humans may have reached godhood, but I never imagined I would ever meet a human who surpassed gods.
Actually, hold on a minute...
Her mental structure can't even be expressed in hyper dimensions! What the heck...she's making an entire universe in her stomach!?
Many humans reached godhood, but I didn't think I'd see the day I'd meet a human who surpassed godhood. Wait, I have a bigger question. What the HELL is wrong with mental composition? Not even a 4D cube'd be enough to give us a good visual representation of that. Who had the big idea of letting her build a universe inside her belly?"
Koyanskaya of Darkness/Dialogue
The following Servants have related dialogues to this Servant (sorted alphabetically): This translation was taken from a Reddit user ComunCoutinho. Thanks for all the hard work.
Saint graph does infact decides power and magical energy since stellar saint graph=magical energy comparable to a star but abilities has nothing to do with saint graphs
Yeah no care to elaborate why'd you came to this conclusion
Do tell how would vortigern with his Ruler/pretender level saint graph can easily destroy Avalon but tiamat who's 4d at best according to you can't (again 2nd planetary saint graph, stronger than Vortigern)
(If anyone needs more context or proof of all the things I posted here I'm happy to oblige
Funny you say this actually, because I think this destroys your whole entire point:
This was stated while the whole Oberon thing was going on. (something that was going to eat the planet whole) This pretty much directly says that the inner sea is unaffected by any "destruction" that happens to the earth.
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- #50
how about now?
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I am assuming I have clearance for 1 more reply AFTER THIS ONE
Anyway first
1)
If you're arguing that planet Earth doesn't scale to Avalon then you need to make another thread because I'm not going to explain something that's already accepted
(If you're not then ignore this
)2) That's not even the right translation here's what it actually says
マーリン
Merlin
そうだろう？
『楽園』に“悪”の可能性は存在しない。Right? There's no such thing as evil in paradise.
マーリン
Merlin
どれほどの終末が地上に吹き荒れようと、
影響は受けず、また干渉しない別世界。It's a separate world that neither influences nor is influenced by the surface, no matter how apocalyptic things may be up there
It clearly says not influenced by The SURFACE no matter how apocalyptic things may be UP THERE
Even Google translates that into "UPON THE EARTH"
Clearly referring to the surface since:
- Avalon doesn't protect the upper surface
-
-
- Merlin was 100% referring to the 3 calamities that were causing destruction ON THE SURFACE OF EARTH NAMELY. CERNUNOUS, MELUSINE AND BARGHEST
(Merlin can't even see Vortigern in the first place)
3)
The surface? Yes
Does this look like surface to you?
Completely anhilation of PHH AND EARTH very much includes Avalon
Hell even lb6 has its own version of Avalon that was also going to be destroyed by Vortigern
ALSO I SEE NO POINT IN ENGAGING IN FURTHER DEBATE IF ALL YOUR GOING TO DO IS REPEAT THE SAME THING USING THE SAME STATEMENT
FEAT> STATEMENT (VORTIGERN'S FEATS SUGGEST OTHERWISE)
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Honestly? I am on the same boat.
This is completely unnecessary. Avoid such commentary, even if it's strike through.
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Still not convinced atm, from my view the feats are self-evident and the line of reasoning (such as "the fact that there's any anti-feats at all says a lot") is something I fundamentally disagree with. No verse is immune to having any anti-feats, because as it turns out, authors aren't powerscalers.
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Also, keeping track of evaluating staff opinions:
Agree:
Disagree: Maverick_Zero_X, Theglassman12, LephyrTheRevanchist
Neutral:
Tbh this looks pretty decisive
Agree:
Disagree: Maverick_Zero_X, Theglassman12, LephyrTheRevanchist
Neutral:
Tbh this looks pretty decisive
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- #56
I don't see why this can't be settled here.I am assuming I have clearance for 1 more reply AFTER THIS ONE
Anyway first
1)
If you're arguing that planet Earth doesn't scale to Avalon then you need to make another thread because I'm not going to explain something that's already accepted
(If you're not then ignore this
The Kanji for that can either mean on the surface, or the entire world/planet.2) That's not even the right translation here's what it actually says
Marlin
Merlin
Isn't that right?
There is no such thing as evil in paradise.
Marlin
Merlin
No matter how many apocalypse may rage upon the earth,
It's a separate world that neither influences nor is influenced by the surface, no matter how apocalyptic things may be up there
It clearly says not influenced by The SURFACE no matter how apocalyptic things may be UP THERE
Even Google translates that into "UPON THE EARTH"
Considering that Avalon is said to
1. Be a separate, isolated world
2. Be free from all the laws of the world
Yeah, I'm leaning towards the latter. Not like it makes a difference, as the whole entire point is that nothing that happens is going to reach into it and destroy it.
Merlin says no matter what goes on,Avalon is protected. He also has clarivoyance (which is why he knew who Goetia was), so he is aware of a shit ton.
You're begging the question. If something is stated to be completely isolated and seperate from the world + all parallel timelines, as I've given proof for, why would the destruction/death of the planet in a singular timeline affect Avalon?
We know that the planet in notes dies sometime before the year 3000, yet notes itself, and a few other stories set past the year 3000, like OC3 and Tsuki no Sango, still exist. Since the inner sea of the planet weaves/creates all parallel worlds upon the earth, and you argue that the destruction/death of the planet = the destruction of the inner sea, does this not go against your argument?
You have given no proof to suggest this, especially since Merlin and FSN says the contrary
Merlin clearly says it's a shadow projected from the real one.
It doesn't make sense for there to be more than one also, because it's also the source of all parallel worlds that exist upon the Earth.
"It is a workshop that weaves and composes all possibilities."
Your mistaken interpretation is not my issue, frankly.
You are once again, begging the question. The entire point is that destruction/death of the planet in an individual timeline does not equal the destruction of Avalon.
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Maverick_Zero_X , Theglassman12
should be mentioned again to review the new arguments.
I think this goes a lot deeper than “there are anti-feats” now. The current 6D scaling ignores a crucial part of how Avalon functions. (And from what I heard, Avalon is the only reason why the extra stuff wasn’t an outlier, as by itself, it’s a one-time only statement that isn’t really explained further.)
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And that is currently being addressed, no?
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Sure, but I find calling the current scaling “self-evident” a little stretch, as a debate would not be happening in the first place.
Could you also mention the 2 staff who have not replied in a bit?
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Anyways @Theglassman12 @Maverick_Zero_X I summon thee
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There seems to be a bug with the Imgur caption, so I’ll paste it here:
"It is isolation. Shielded from the prayers of the outside world by a faerie's light of selection , it is a world seperate and unreachable from this one. Saber, protected by the sheath of the holy sword, is in this moment alone severed from all the laws of this world. The strongest defense in this world. A singularity untouched even by the five magics, it is the ultimate one, inviolable by any."
"It is isolation. Shielded from the prayers of the outside world by a faerie's light of selection , it is a world seperate and unreachable from this one. Saber, protected by the sheath of the holy sword, is in this moment alone severed from all the laws of this world. The strongest defense in this world. A singularity untouched even by the five magics, it is the ultimate one, inviolable by any."
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My mind’s not changed with this, even with the new arguments, still disagree with the downgrade
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Could you at least justify why? Considering….
(Especially when this is both proven and stated in series to not be the case)
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I'm not convinced by your arguments and I find the folks who are against this to be more believable in the arguments, if there's nothing left here then I'll just close this thread since it's been over a month.
- Status
