(Nasuverse) 1/Removal of Tier 1 for Fate/Extra..

[Wankbreaker]

(Nasuverse) 1/Removal of Tier 1 for Fate/Extra..

To start with, the Moon-Cell is considered 8D, and therefore the MMC servants and BB and such. Which seems fine…… until you investigate further.



Tamamo’s kick that hit and made the mooncell go haywire had the power of a solar flare….so basically the same power as Ozymandias’s Dendera lightbulb, which is accepted as continental on the wiki. The core is also noted to be an “underground”( 地下) structure, which implies that the “dimensions” are actually layers after all (at least in this scenario. There ARE higher dimensions in the nasuverse, but the way nasu uses the word “jigen” varies heavily, so you have to look at the context. It can mean dimension, but it can also mean level,layer,etc.)

For example, a “multidimensional barrier” shows up in extella, but it merely seems “multilayered”’

Fate/extella Part #95 - Fate

Let's Play Fate/extella by Sylphid - Part 95: Fate

lparchive.org

MMC (Emiya?) is also compared to Cu Alter in power:

Interlude
A Disaster-Class enemy found in Chapter Five.
At this point, since you are the main character, you might as well summon a certain Archer wearing a Mythological Mystic Code, and have the two of them fight in a mysterious space until the end of time.
So, how about it?

who gets beaten by a group of a few regular servants.


Another flaw in the scaling is that MMC Gil is equal to himself when he was alive (something that is also accepted on the wiki). However, it took both him and Enkidu to stop Gugalanna. Why is this relevant? In Strange Fake, this is said of Gugalanna:

‘Obviously, comparing different forms of calamities is comparing apples and oranges, and
cataclysmic earthquakes are inherently more damaging to the world than giant tornados, but

looking only at their energy numbers, the bulky hurricane had the power of a hundred magni-
tude 9 earthquakes.

What would happen if all this energy walked like a beast?

Chapter 21

79

The answer is what he sees.
A large hurricane made of dense cumulonimbus.
It was the textbook image of a typhoon, a beautiful rift separating the clouds from the sky.
Almost a perfect circle when seen from above.
Nonetheless, for someone capable of seeing the dense magical energy it contained, it was a
typhoon-sized colossus slowly walking in his direction.
Its bellows are gales.
Its veins are torrents.
Its huffs are lightning.
The dense cumulonimbus is its very meat while also the armor guarding the whole divine
beast.
Not a zoomorphized cyclone. The opposite of that, in fact.
This appearance is the direct result of attempting to make a beast of the gods descend to the
world without changing its shape. Thia knew exactly what the monster truly was.”

While impressive (this should be about continental,which is actually consistent with the solar flare level kick), definitely not OMG 8D!!!!!!!.

Finally, we have Tiamat.

Unlock: Primal Planet, Admiring the Sky
Height/Weight: 160 cm ~ 74000000 km²(3)・??kg
Source: Ancient Mesopotamian Mythology
Region: Mesopotamia
Alignment: Chaotic Evil　　Gender: Female
The black mud is also included in Tiamat’s height. However, the mud is made of imaginary numbers, so her weight is unquantifiable.
Meanwhile, Tiamat’s volume is infinite. In other words, she is a four-dimensional pocket.

Unlock: Primal Planet, Admiring the Sky
Tiamat is the womb that was cast aside after the world was created.
She is the Maternal Sea who was used as the soil to give birth to life, but once the Earth’s environment settled and ecosystems were established, Tiamat was deemed unnecessary and driven out into the world of imaginary numbers. (The Inner World. Lifeless imaginary number space, not a parallel universe.)
Her Saint Graph is built off mud from the imaginary number space (which according to the profile, makes it 4D.) She can also use this mud to make herself more powerful: Self-Modification: EX
Tiamat can remold her own Saint Graph using the black Sea of Life.
Her body can grow from its standard Saint Graph (Femme Fatale) into that of a dragon over 60 meters in length.
Once Tiamat becomes a dragon, attacks against her of A++ rank or lower are nullified.

The Saint Graph decides everything about your power-level. From your physical stats, to even your hax potency. So if a 4D power source can buff your saint graph, it doesnt make much sense for it to be higher. Keep in mind that BB uses the same imaginary number space in much of her attacks. Why is this relevant? Because Goetia’s AAS rivals her.

Ushiwakamaru The only Noble Phantasm that could destroy this sea would be one capable of gathering all the magical energy of the entire era.
Ushiwakamaru In other words, only the light bands covering the heavens can rival Mother now. Do any of you have such a powerful Noble Phantasm?

Goetia himself, without AAS is equal to Amaterasu:

Tamamo-no-Mae But if I can't be useful to you, I'm just a fluffy fox, shrine maiden...
Tamamo-no-Mae ...and the cause of this Holy Grail War is a threat enough to rival my nine-tail self…

Amaterasu scales above everyone in Extra and CCC:

As far as EXTRA and CCC go, she‘s about the only one who can bring Golden White Face [Konjiki Hakumen] down to a level where “it’s possible to defeat her no matter how slim the possibility.”

I think you get the idea now. 4D is a far cry from 8D, or even 6D.

Now onto the next topic:

The Moon Cell is not a multiverse.

Moon Cell‘s core is Moon Cell.
As far as Moon Cell is concerned, the seven layers that make up the interior of the Moon are just “additional memory.”
Moon Cell‘s core is what really manages the Moon and observes the Earth. It is the brain that stores the data about the past and future.
It observes the determination of every possible destiny every second, computes further results, and stores everything inside itself as light.
There are untold tens of millions of lights years of light trapped within the core, and the entire photonic crystal structure is also powered by it.
A certain person named Moon Cell‘s core, “The Destiny Perceiving Dendrogram.”
Just by using information encoded by converging light Moon Cell‘s core can even rewrite the laws of physics.
Phenomena Selection Tree Angelica Cage.

Tens of millions of light years of data is a farcry from a multiverse, yea?

The mooncell doesnt “delete” or” rewrite” the entire multiverse in an instant either, it just helps recreate the ideal future earth you desire over a period of a decade:

かつては『あらゆる願いを叶える願望機』を指した言葉だったが、EXTRAでは『ムーンセルの使用権』を示す。
膨大な地球のシミュレート記録を保管するムーンセルを閲覧すれば、そこにはかならず『貴方が望む未来の地球』が存在している。
ムーンセルを使える事になった『貴方』は、ただ一言、ムーンセルに告げればいい。
『この、私にとって理想の未来を再現しろ』と。
ムーンセルは速やかに地球をその未来のカタチに運んでいくだろう。そのための方法を、実行手段を、月はすべて識っているのだから。
例えば『地球人類の女の子ぜんぶワイの妹にしてほしい』と願えば、きっと十年ぐらいで地球はそのような社会形式になると思われる。
あるいは、その夢が『リアルに見られる』装置を作るため、地球全体がそのように運営される。
人間は人間が想像する範囲において、実現できないものはない。それがどのような幻想、絵空事であっても、体験する手段はあるのである。


The word once referred to the "wish-granting machine" that could fulfill any desire, but in EXTRA, it signifies the "right to use the Moon Cell." By accessing the Moon Cell, which stores an enormous amount of simulated records of Earth, there will always exist the "future Earth you desire."

As someone who is granted access to the Moon Cell, you only need to say one thing to it: "Recreate this ideal future for me." The Moon Cell will swiftly guide the Earth into that future form. The moon knows all the methods and means to make it happen.

For example, if you wish for "all the girls of Earth's humanity to become my sisters," it is believed that within about ten years, Earth could transform into such a societal format. Alternatively, the entire planet might be governed in a way to create a device that lets you "view that dream in reality."
There is nothing that cannot be realized within the range of human imagination. No matter how fantastical or imaginary, there is a way to experience it.

Plus:

Moving on to the last portion of this part of the Revision. Too many people scale in the nasuverse to destroying Avalon.

Goetia’s big Noble Phantasm (which I proved to scale above all of extra) couldn’t even destroy it.

??? When faced with a sea that births life, all you have to do is use that life for something less horrible and more helpful!
??? And if that's the case, the spotlight is mine! After all, I enjoy bolstering my reputation as the Mage of Flowers!
Sound Effect
[Background] [Figure]
Dr. Roman Ack! Meeeerlin!? How can you be here!? Don't tell me you were re-summoned!? No, no, no!
[Background] [Figure]
Merlin Hahaha, no, of course not. Re-summoning is impossible. There's a simpler explanation.
Merlin I am the real deal, the genuine Merlin. I just popped over from Avalon!
[Background] [Figure]
Fou Foooou! Kyuuuu!
Choices
How did you get here?
Okay, but how the hell did you get here?
[Background] [Figure]
Merlin Ah, with the Earth a blank slate from humanity's incineration, I was able to sneak through fairyland!
[Background] [Figure]
Merlin I do hate sad partings. Letting death be what separates us would have just been too depressing!
[Background] [Figure]
Merlin Therefore, I bent the rules just a liiiiiittle bit and escaped my tower of imprisonment. In order to see you folks, of course.

Goetia also scales above everything up until LB 5.5, as the Alien God when awakening had the highest output out of anything chaldea had faced previously, second only to Goetia.



It can even block all 5 magics of the nasuverse.

Gilgamesh DEFINITELY shouldnt be scaling to the destruction of the planet, as enuma elish at absolute max output was blocked by Avalon in the Fate route, which is again explained here:

•Avalon: The Everdistant Utopia
The matching “scabbard” of the holy sword Excalibur. The wielder does not age, and injuries will also quickly heal.
After invoking its true name, Avalon dissipates as tiny particles into the air, and shields the wielder from all interference. No damage can be done to the wielder when a state of absolute defence is initiated. Even interference from the parallel world based on the Second Magic will be blocked. An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself. No one can harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon.
When Avalon was unleashed, not even the King of Heroes could harm Sabre.

So, what are the changes?
Remove tier 1 from extra characters and most FGO characters, and downgrading whatever hax potency they posses to 4D.

Remove Tier 1 from characters that scale equal or below Goetia.

 

[Wankbreaker]

@Deagonx

 

[Wankbreaker]

So just a few of Anti-feats? don't seem enough tbh.

the fact there are anti-feats that exist to begin with is a problem ( most of them that lead into some weird scaling chain of everyone and their mom being tier 1 if left unchecked, which is obviously false

plus, a lot of them being integral to the plot or some other reason.

Also, I pretty sure we have a discussion rule about doing this type of threads.

Discussion rules can change! You are in fact allowed to say "That rule is unfounded, and this reason for downgrading and changing that rule makes sense." or "The reasons for the speed rating make sense, so it, and the rule, should stay." or even "I'm not sure what should be done."

I think your view in particular is pretty relevant, since you were one of the two staff members that commented on the upgrade immediately before the discussion rule got put into place.

Discussion rules can be struck down if it is decided by a later group that the rule is illegitimate. For now, discussion ought to continue as if the rule were not made, until those staff pinged on the subject speak their minds: reckon their opinions are among the most relevant.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Using a solar flare anti-feat to downgrade it to 4D doesn't make sense to me as an argument. A solar flare is a 3D phenomenon, so if we were to rate the Moon-Cell as 4D we'd obviously have to dismiss the solar flare thing as an Inconsistency.

If these are the same arguments brought up before I don't see the point of this.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Using a solar flare anti-feat to downgrade it to 4D doesn't make sense to me as an argument. A solar flare is a 3D phenomenon, so the by rating is as 4D we'd obviously have to dismiss the solar flare thing as an Inconsistency.

This wiki doesnt seem to inherently rate anything 4D tier 2 unless it has/ or affects a space-time continuum of at least a universe size, (as everything has time)

There’s also like a few other things I pointed out as to why the Tier 1 scaling is incoherent.

If these are the same arguments brought up before I don't see the point of this.

I’ve checked the threads highlighted in the discussion rule, and this thread seems to be entirely novel, for the most part

 

[KingNanaya]

I will say that this does indeed clash with the current discussion rules, as the argument about timelines being light/not literal and Enuma Elish not beating Avalon were talked about in the threads linked in the discussion rule.

Discussion rules can change! You are in fact allowed to say "That rule is unfounded, and this reason for downgrading and changing that rule makes sense." or "The reasons for the speed rating make sense, so it, and the rule, should stay." or even "I'm not sure what should be done."

Yeah, I don't think anyone is contesting this fact. But at the same time, you aren't really saying why you think the rule, the original reasoning, and the counter arguments given in the threads cited in the discussion rule are wrong. Right now, you're just saying the same things that were said in the past. I do think, however, that you are right in saying that there are too many characters that scale to tier 1. That much I agree with. Many characters that scale to tier 1 have really mundane reasons as to why, so removing their scaling and putting them at their previous tier seems like a better approach to me.

Finally, we have Tiamat.



The Saint Graph decides everything about your power-level. From your physical stats, to even your hax potency.

my primary issue with this is this specific part:

The black mud is also included in Tiamat’s height. However, the mud is made of imaginary numbers, so her weight is unquantifiable.
Meanwhile, Tiamat’s volume is infinite. In other words, she is a four-dimensional pocket.

This is speaking on her height and her weight, firstly, not her strength. Second, the official text makes it sound more like the volume of the mud is what's internal capacity is infinite

The black mud's dimensions should also be included in Tiamat's own. But since the mud is of the void element, it cannot be weighed. At the same time, its internal capacity is infinite. It's essentially a four-dimensional pocket space.

I think it'd be best to see what the raws say just to confirm whether it's talking about the mud or Tiamat herself.

The Saint Graph decides everything about your power-level. From your physical stats, to even your hax potency. So if a 4D power source can buff your saint graph, it doesnt make much sense for it to be higher.

I think we both know that the way multipliers work for tier 2 and up aren't the most realistic in the way they're applied on this site.

I’ve checked the threads highlighted in the discussion rule, and this thread seems to be entirely novel, for the most part

No, not really.
this thread uses the same argument you're using to debunk 2-A
this thread talks about nearly all of your arguments directly, minus your comments about strange fake.

If these are the same arguments brought up before I don't see the point of this.

A majority of these are the same arguments as before, and many of the new things in the thread mainly deal with scaling that can be resolved by revising the current scaling chain.

 

[KingNanaya]

@Maverick_Zero_X gave me permission to comment, btw. Forgot to put that in my post.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Given permission by Mav to leave my one ever comment here

the fact there are anti-feats that exist to begin with is a problem

No? There is no series where any possible rating for it has 0 anti feats, just look at reddit scaling, where any series can be argued down super low for the sake of getting it into a bracket.

You also bring up the idea that discussion rules have exceptions, however this thread falls under none of them, every point here has been brought up before, the entire anti feats angle has been tried already.

The idea you're working under is "X is compared to a solar flare therefore it can't be tier 1" (keep in mind, solar flares aren't 4d either so this argument doesn't make sense when you say to scale stuff to 4d at the end, because your goal with using this statement is to say that the Mooncell isn't higher d at all), and saying that Cu Alter is equal to MMC Emiya (the statement you're using doesn't actually say this btw) which means MMC Emiya can't be high tier because Calter loses to servants

The last part is especially disingenuous because even if you argue he isn't higher dimensional, we know for a fact that MMC Emiya is significantly stronger than normal servants, so the anti feat you're trying to argue requires saying BB and Kiara are relative to like, Nightingale, despite us seeing the gap between them and normal servants. So the entire argument just doesn't work no matter what, downgrading the verse does not fix the issue you're trying to create here, it's a completely irrelevant point

The stuff about the Mooncell and light/data was in fact brought up in one of the linked threads for the discussion rule, btw, it's not even like others where you can argue the thread in question wasn't linked

The Avalon point was also brought up on that same thread as Kingnanaya has mentined

This wiki doesnt seem to inherently rate anything 4D tier 2 unless it has/ or affects a space-time continuum of at least a universe size, (as everything has time)

This doesn't work as a rebuttal because at the end of your thread, you're saying to make the stuff 4d instead, as they were before the tier 1 upgrades.

The entire thread hinges on a weird assumption that anti feat automatically means the tier is wrong, which if applied, would render basically every verse untierable. Given the main anti feats in question are 1. An attack name (and as mentioned doesn't work because solar flares are not 4d anyway) 2. A line of scaling that not only doesn't exist, but doesn't work even if the verse was downgraded and 3. A point addressed in the discussion rule (I'm not sure the threads listed there are even meant to be an exhaustive list btw, but c'set la vie), I'm inclined to disagree with this thread

 

[Wankbreaker]

Given permission by Mav to leave my one ever comment here

No? There is no series where any possible rating for it has 0 anti feats, just look at reddit scaling, where any series can be argued down super low for the sake of getting it into a bracket.

The anti-feats ARE relevant however, when it results in a mega wacky scaling chain

MMC Gil is equal to alive gil, and alive gil and enkidu were needed against Gugalanna.

Gugalanna has " 100 mag 9 earthquakes" worth of energy/power. It was also one shot by Alcides.... and then ensue the long scaling chain where every servant can at least last more than 2 seconds in a fight against another one.

You also bring up the idea that discussion rules have exceptions, however this thread falls under none of them, every point here has been brought up before, the entire anti feats angle has been tried already.

Ive checked and only the 2 points pointed out by Nanaya seem to intersect, cite the rest.

I do however plan to address these

The idea you're working under is "X is compared to a solar flare therefore it can't be tier 1" (keep in mind, solar flares aren't 4d either so this argument doesn't make sense when you say to scale stuff to 4d at the end, because your goal with using this statement is to say that the Mooncell isn't higher d at all),

The Mooncell is higher D (thats why I proposed 4D hax potency, which does NOT correlate with tier unless it can affect or is a universal sized space-time continuum)

The area in the core/far side is imaginary number space (Which is 4D, according to Tiamat's profile.)

and saying that Cu Alter is equal to MMC Emiya (the statement you're using doesn't actually say this btw) which means MMC Emiya can't be high tier because Calter loses to servants

The statement goes "oooh disaster class, how scary!" and then talks about having the 2 of them fight for eternity. How is it not saying this?

Also keep in mind, Elizabeth Bathory was able to defeat the representation of the servants "origin" that was sealing the MMC from being used.

The last part is especially disingenuous because even if you argue he isn't higher dimensional, we know for a fact that MMC Emiya is significantly stronger than normal servants, so the anti feat you're trying to argue requires saying BB and Kiara are relative to like, Nightingale, despite us seeing the gap between them and normal servants. So the entire argument just doesn't work no matter what, downgrading the verse does not fix the issue you're trying to create here, it's a completely irrelevant point

Cu Alter is also significantly stronger than normal servants, thats why it took a large group of them to beat him.


BB and Kiara are massively stronger, to the point where the MMC servants have under a 1% percent chance to win, and the entire fight hinges around making sure BB does not use C.C.C. Kiara in particular was noted to be effectively impossible to beat if BB didnt help nerf her. AI sakura supports this argument by saying the raw chance is low (against BB).BB is also to put it quite simply, a hax merchant. Her actual physical parameters are unknown, and the MMC helped to negate most of her pesky hax abilities.

The stuff about the Mooncell and light/data was in fact brought up in one of the linked threads for the discussion rule, btw, it's not even like others where you can argue the thread in question wasn't linked

The Avalon point was also brought up on that same thread as Kingnanaya has mentined

That thread seems to imply it is a chain effect, therefore it doesnt scale.

My point is that Goetia did not have the power to affect it in the first place, as Merlin is completely fine, nor implies the HIO affected Avalon. completely different.

This doesn't work as a rebuttal because at the end of your thread, you're saying to make the stuff 4d instead, as they were before the tier 1 upgrades.

Again, hax potency does not correlate to tiering.

The entire thread hinges on a weird assumption that anti feat automatically means the tier is wrong, which if applied, would render basically every verse untierable. Given the main anti feats in question are 1. An attack name (and as mentioned doesn't work because solar flares are not 4d anyway)

The attack name (in the furigana), is different from the text below it. The text below it is a direct statement of its raw power.

2. A line of scaling that not only doesn't exist, but doesn't work even if the verse was downgraded

see above

and 3. A point addressed in the discussion rule (I'm not sure the threads listed there are even meant to be an exhaustive list btw, but c'set la vie), I'm inclined to disagree with this thread

cite which particular point?

 

[Wankbreaker]

my primary issue with this is this specific part:

This is speaking on her height and her weight, firstly, not her strength. Second, the official text makes it sound more like the volume of the mud is what's internal capacity is infinite

She (is) the mud.

Unlock: Primal Planet, Admiring the Sky
Tiamat is the womb that was cast aside after the world was created.
She is the Maternal Sea who was used as the soil to give birth to life, but once the Earth’s environment settled and ecosystems were established, Tiamat was deemed unnecessary and driven out into the world of imaginary numbers. (The Inner World. Lifeless imaginary number space, not a parallel universe.)

However, the body of the Second Beast is the ocean itself, so it cannot move onto land. Instead, it is her children’s role to mop up the human race.

Sea of Life: EX
The Second Beast itself is the sea which gives rise to life.
It cycles the True Ether of primordial Earth, so its mana supply within this sea is infinite.
All who are caught and drowned in the black mud are randomly assigned the following Skills: Self-Modification, Life Transformation, Life Fusion, and Individual Multiplication.

And as explained in the OP, it comprises her saint graph, and more of it can be used to buff herself.

I think it'd be best to see what the raws say just to confirm whether it's talking about the mud or Tiamat herself.

身長／体重：160cm～7400万km2・??kg
出典：古代メソポタミア神話
地域：メソポタミア
属性：混沌・悪　　副属性：獣　　性別：女性
黒い泥もティアマトの身長となる。ただし泥は
虚数なので重さは計量できない。
反面、体積は無限となる。要は四次元ポケット。

Height/Weight: 160cm ~ 74 million km² / ??kg
Origin: Ancient Mesopotamian Myth
Region: Mesopotamia
Attribute: Chaos, Evil Sub-attribute: Beast Gender: Female

The black mud also constitutes Tiamat's height. However, since the mud is imaginary, its weight cannot be measured. On the other hand, its volume becomes infinite. In essence, it's like a four-dimensional pocket.

I think we both know that the way multipliers work for tier 2 and up aren't the most realistic in the way they're applied on this site.

on this site, the basic logic still is that 4D and 4D do not add up to become higher. Especially when it comprises the very source of all of your ability.

No, not really.
this thread uses the same argument you're using to debunk 2-A

Im pretty sure the "total size" of the collected spiritrons (which adds up to tens of millions of light years, btw) was never addressed.

this thread talks about nearly all of your arguments directly, minus your comments about strange fake.

aside the fact that it doesnt, that thread was literally just a reddit thread, which (rightfully) got closed without any discussion.

A majority of these are the same arguments as before, and many of the new things in the thread mainly deal with scaling that can be resolved by revising the current scaling chain.