Naruto's lightspeed statements and their consistency

[Rocker1189]

they dont depend on that, it is just an additional statement. the arguments are based on the statements themselves.

 

[AstralKing7]

Actually no damage that's jsut scaling. For Sasuke. Technically it doesn't even matter if Sasuke scales to sub rel or rel because the characters who are light speed or near the speed aren't reliant on Sasuke being sub rel. For instance, Ay doesn't need scaling to Sasuke nor does Mifune

 

[Damage3245]

I can remove this Sasuke stuff and it would change nothing

The argument for saying that it isn't in outlier in the OP is this:


> Hmm, no. Fodders can peform Mach 6800 feats, and a weaker Sasuke can peform Sub-Relativistic feats.

I'm not sure what the former part is referring to, but the latter part hasn't been accepted.

 

[Kepekley23]

I think the former part is supposed to be referencing some recent calc for Shino. I saw it floating around but never got around to evaluating it.

 

[AstralKing7]

Fodders would make a huge blitzing chain man. These fodder are genin to chunin a lol.

Sasuke blitz ninjas like those with out even using sharingan

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I think he's calling Adult Shino the "fodder"

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/Boruto:_Shino_is_faster_than_you_think

 

[Jvando]

No need for the quotes. He kinda is....

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think Mabui's teleport itself being lightspeed is fine and non-controversial. It is a teleport technique, afterall. Everything else, though...

This. I'm neutral on everything else.

 

[Damage3245]

Just want to say, I don't have a problem with Mabui's teleportation itself being Lightspeed. It is the interpretation that Madara reacted to and blocked a lightspeed attack that I disagreed with.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Hmm I was baited

 

[M3X_2.0]

It seems that Issen was accepted after all. What remains is Ay's statement and Madara's feat. I would like to delete Issen from the debate and leave it as accepted in the thread, if nobody has anything against.

 

[Damage3245]

> It seems that Issen was accepted after all.

Really? It seems like a lot of the staff members were neutral on it.

I do think that accepting Issen as lightspeed (based on very little evidence) will create a lot of inconsistencies - but I'll have to go into more detail about it tomorrow. No time tonight.

 

[AstralKing7]

Just putting this out here. If staff considers mabuis skill teleportation than that means it scales to Minato just like Ay said; Minato was the fastest ninja alive until he saw Naruto in KCM who's speed resembles Flying Rajin

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; what's the connection between Mabui's teleportation and Minato? Minato's teleportation is instantaneous, isn't it?

And Mabui isn't teleporting herself; so it's hard to argue that she'd qualify for the 'fastest ninja alive'.

 

[Rocker1189]

I don't think that can be scaled to minato.

 

[AstralKing7]

@AstralKing7; what's the connection between Mabui's teleportation and Minato? Minato's teleportation is instantaneous, isn't it?

And Mabui isn't teleporting herself; so it's hard to argue that she'd qualify for the 'fastest ninja alive'.

...Minato can teleport objects

 

[Rocker1189]

Well I agree with damage here, Minato's is instantaneous and uses space time manipulation. Mabui is more like transportation with a set speed. I of course still believe that madara reacted to it.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Of the staff, only two remained neutral. Kep gave no opinion on the rest. And yes, Issen was accepted. All attempts to disprove have been debunked. You can read all thread, you will not find a reason to deny. Is it so hard to accept a simple statement? Really? I even understand that you have problems with Madara and the teleport, but the other two are just statements. If that were any other verse would have been accepted. About inconsistency, this should not be done here. The thread is just for the approval of the feats, the scaling will occur later, and it is in this thread that you can present your points.

 

[AstralKing7]

I agree we should just focus on the statements and agreement. So far none of this is hype text so no hyperboles or contradictions

 

[Jvando]

Just want to say, I don't have a problem with Mabui's teleportation itself being Lightspeed. It is the interpretation that Madara reacted to and blocked a lightspeed attack that I disagreed with.

If Tsunade and A had landed right in front of Madara and Mu before attacking like you claimed earlier, then they would have done so in the same manner the treasure was transported.


You see how it comes directly dow to the ground from the sky? Now contrast that to how Tsunade and A were transported...


Both Tsunade and A were flying straight at Madara and Mu respectively, a sharp contrast to how the treasure was transported. They would have continued to Travel at LS until they hit their target which in this case scenario was Madara and Mu, just like how the treasure was transported.

 

[Damage3245]

Of the staff, only two remained neutral. Kep gave no opinion on the rest. And yes, Issen was accepted. All attempts to disprove have been debunked. You can read all thread, you will not find a reason to deny. Is it so hard to accept a simple statement? Really? I even understand that you have problems with Madara and the teleport, but the other two are just statements. If that were any other verse would have been accepted. About inconsistency, this should not be done here. The thread is just for the approval of the feats, the scaling will occur later, and it is in this thread that you can present your points.

That's presumptuous. We've only just started discussing it.

And examining inconsistencies is surely part of verifying that the statement is accurate / trustworthy, right?

 

[Jvando]

> It seems that Issen was accepted after all.

Really? It seems like a lot of the staff members were neutral on it.

I do think that accepting Issen as lightspeed (based on very little evidence) will create a lot of inconsistencies - but I'll have to go into more detail about it tomorrow. No time tonight.

As far as I'm aware, the regular samurai do not have SoL Issen, only Mifune. There should be little to no inconsistencies with this also seeing as Mifune should logically be stronger than normal samurai. Also, while I don't agree it's a beam of light, it is stated to be light speed, further supported by the other relativistic to LS statements.

Also.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

You can clearly see the other samurai attacks and bb keeping up with the supposed light speed slash.

 

[Rocker1189]

All we see is multiple slashes. We don't even know which is his besides the one with him in the image.

 

[Jvando]

All we see is multiple slashes. We don't even know which is his besides the one with him in the image.

^

You'd need to prove that one of those slashes are his cause from what I can see, that giant diagonal slash on the bottom panel can easily be from Temari or the slew of other individuals who attacked.

 

[AstralKing7]

That's presumptuous. We've only just started discussing it.

And examining inconsistencies is surely part of verifying that the statement is accurate / trustworthy, right?


Damage first u have to find inconsistencies with the feats. Inconsistencies which aren't real at all for these jutsus especially Issen Lariet

This thread is about getting the jutsus accepted as LS everyone. There are absolutely no inconsistencies for these jutsus. We can talk about the scaling on another thread but not here

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

^

You'd need to prove that one of those slashes are his cause from what I can see, that giant diagonal slash on the bottom panel can easily be from Temari or the slew of other individuals who attacked.

What do you mean prove it's one of his? it's quite clearly a combination attack by everyone which is why they're showing all the attacks on that single page.

 

[AstralKing7]

And?? Even if u could figure out which attack was his it would still be faster than the Bb since it's in front of it when it reaches the Juubi. This is a bad argument if we wanna be honest.

Gyuki even attacked first but Mifunes attack that u assumed is there still reached the Juubi first.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I've seen some one using this same argument to scale an arrow to lightning speed before, just because they "can keep up with each other". I will not tell wich franchise it is, you guys know.

 

[AstralKing7]

True lmao we've seen Goku and vegta fly with whis and Berus but that doesn't mean they're add fast as him at all. This is a common shonen troupe and how are people even trying to use that

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Mabui's teleportation is light speed, no argument against that. But that's it for that Jutsu. It's just like the Bifrost Bridge from the Marvel Cinematic Universe, it's traveling at extreme speeds, but that's it for it. It's just a travel Jutsu and there's no scaling to it.

Isse

I have several issues with Mifune's Jutsu:

For starters, this is not called "Beam of Light". The name literally means "Flash" as you can read up here.

Secondly, I don't see how Mifune logically has a light speed attack when he's essentially fodder in the series and as seen in this colored scan his attack is not notably any faster than the other Samurai attacks and Gyuki's Bijuudama and those have speed feats that aren't impressive or even relativistic. This would be an outlier for Gyuki's Bijuudama and the Samurai attacks.


Also, let me point out the whole hypocrisy regardin these "light speed Naruto databook statements".

They straight up are not consistent and contradictory.

Like honestly, what kind of bullshit is this. We're supposed to believe all these statements when they don't make any sense?

Light speed Haku in the first arc?

Light speed 3rd Raikage who is fodder in speed in the last arc?

Light speed Mifune attack in the Gokage Summit Arc?

Light speed Light Fang? The whole point about Light Fang was that it was light speed and thus undodgable. But what the hell is the point about that if we have all these light speed fodder characters much earlier on?

Hell what about Kirin? The whole specialty of Kirin was that it was so fast because it was lightning speed, and this is a mid-series Sasuke and Itachi.

Which one of these light speed statements are true? The one that a God Tier used 30 chapters before the end? The light speed statement from the first arc? The light speed statement for mid-arc characters?

They aren't consistent and contradict each other in the speed of the series.

This is why there is a Discussion Rule against using the Naruto databooks, it's filled with way too much hyperbole that doesn't make sense.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Mabui's teleportation being lightspeed kinda just debunks everything else just via the fact that lightspeed is considered teleportation and no one else not even A who had requested to use it could make it in time.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Also what IMade said about Lightfang causes the same issue as with the teleportation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Mabui's teleportation being lightspeed kinda just debunks everything else just via the fact that lightspeed is considered teleportation and no one else not even A who had requested to use it could make it in time.

This is not true in the slightest..

 

[Heavens_Feel]

This is not true in the slightest..

Why?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Your whole point is based on attacking the statements without even giving a convincing argument and only uses a supposed inconsistency to deny all statements.

Light speed Haku in the first arc?

No. I do not even know where you saw this in the thread. This has been rejected many times as an outlier. I did not understand what I meant to mention here, but it did not work.

Light speed 3rd Raikage who is fodder in speed in the last arc?

Yes. Exactly what you read. I did not understand when you said he is fodder and on the last arc. There is nothing that contradicts this. The God Tier is currently being scaled to someone with Mach 6800 feats that is fodder, irrelevant in the Tier system on the reverse. There is no inconsistency in this.

Light speed Mifune attack in the Gokage Summit Arc?

I do not know how to belittle something to the point of making it look insipidifying, it makes something wrong. Yes, Mifune with lightning speed on attack. Is he fodder? Maybe, I consider him with relative importance (Because of the War with Hanzo and because of the Iron Country). This scales only attack speed for him, the only character that can perhaps scale to combat speed and reaction is Sasuke, which as I have already shown, is consistent.

Secondly, I don't see how Mifune logically has a light speed attack when he's essentially fodder in the series and as seen in this colored scan his attack is not notably any faster than the other Samurai attacks and Gyuki's Bijuudama and those have speed feats that aren't impressive or even relativistic. This would be an outlier for Gyuki's Bijuudama and the Samurai attacks.

Attacks being thrown at the same time and not demonstrating difference in speed is something common, I do not even know how this is an argument, this is common in works like, Magi with the magic of light and lightning going visually at the same speed, or when the members of Universe 7, in Dragon Ball, launch their attacks at the same time and hit the character I forgot the name at the same time. Goku is way above characters like Android 18 or 17, but there was no speed difference. That is common. This is visual.

Which one of these light speed statements are true? The one that a God Tier used 30 chapters before the end? The light speed statement from the first arc? The light speed statement for mid-arc characters?

Those I've showed here. You mentioned Kirin but forgot the manga gave its speed to us. In this case, there was a contradiction with the manga and therefore we did not use it. Is there any contradiction with the mentions that I put in the thread? No, not even close. What is the problem of God Tier characters having attacks at the same speed of characters far below them?Mitsuki lightning was accepted as a real lightning, Kakuzu too. Kakuzu is superior to Mitsuki for thousands of Joules, his Tier is totally above Mitsuki's. And also, why would Madara use a lightning as one of his Ninjutsu? I can keep citing several examples, but it's not worth it and you already understand

This is why there is a Discussion Rule against using the Naruto databooks, it's filled with way too much hyperbole that doesn't make sense.

Yes, that's why we have this rule, to prevent dumb statements being used to debunk consistent statements. Same case here.

Mabui's teleportation being lightspeed kinda just debunks everything else just via the fact that lightspeed is considered teleportation and no one else not even A who had requested to use it could make it in time.

This only reinforces that there is a huge difference between travel speed and combat speed. Ninjas take days to move from one village to another, from one country to another, but they still have high speeds in combat, high enough to cross this distances in seconds if we consider the same kind of speed. Mabui jutsu is just a technique that facilitates the sending of objects, information and even people to another place.

 

[Gogogozoom7]

Hm.

Your quote of Ay's lightspeed lariat is from the guidebooks.A source from which we got quotes such as Universal Temari,Universe slicing Susanoo,or even lightspeed Haku.Unless you're capable of finding feats from Ay that come close to the speed of light,I find it better to dismiss the databook statement.Should a databook statement be backed up by multiple solid semblences of proof in the series,then this point is moot and this upgrade can be accepted.

Your next statement(s) of Ay hinge on him blitzing Sasuke,and Sasuke supposedly reacted to a LS attack.Not only is this not on the profile,you assume that the attack was explicitly lightspeed.Lo and behold,the source stating that it's lightspeed is from a guidebook.It's untranslated.On top of that,just because an attack has a fancy name with the word light in it,it doesn't mean it's lightspeed.What matters is what the attack did,and based off of the attacks showings,and the Forbidden Art of Common Sense,it isn't lightspeed.

Im unsure what your next point for Ay is stating.

The last point for Ay seems to be you once more taking unproven things as fact,primarily the near lightspeed Ay thing again which simply brings us back to my first point.

Now we move on down to Madara.

"Reacts to Mabui's SoL teleport".Didn't you state, "not a SoL feat and did not even come close, I suppose,".So what's the deal?Is it the Speed of Light,is it not?On top of that,the teleportation technique ceases when it touches the ground.It's extremely obvious that Tsunade and Ay simply were covered in the aura residue of the technique.On top of that,Madara didn't react to it.Both Madara and our Mummy friend over here got suprised by the light of the technique.then were struck.Madara,being the agile son of a gun he is,managed to land on his feet after the blow.Although,the technique is indeed lightspeed,it's specifically for travel.

"Reacts to Ay with amp",this relies on the assumption that,once again,Ay is near lightspeed going off of the databook.I already explained why i'm against this assumption in my very first point.

"Reacts to Naruto",ONCE AGAIN,relies on the assumption that Ay is near lightspeed.And now,down to Naruto.

"Reacts to Ay at point blank range",once again relies on the assumption that Ay is near lightspeed.See a pattern here?

"Intercepts Madara a mile away",this isn't lightspeed or close to it in any way.But it may be calculable,so I suppose someone should get to that soon.

Last but not least,Sasuke.

"Dodged from Bee's lariat".Once again.Relies on the assumption that Ay is near lightspeed off of the databook.

"Reacts to the attack of the Samurai,which is SoL",my second point on Ay tackles this.A tldr of it,you assume the attack is Light speed off of a databook that holds some information.The attack having the word Light in it doesn't make it lightspeed.What we've seen of the attack,and based off common sense,we know the attack isn't lightspeed.

Also,i'd like to see the calc you did for the SoL samurai attack.On top of that,why are we to assume that Mitsuki's lightning attack is lightning speed?Opposed to Kirin,which has a direct character statement AND it's shown to use cloud to ground,Mitsuki's attack shows no semblence of lightning whatsoever.

Contradictions:The biggest one being Sasuke from a weaker arc "dodging at Sub-Rel speeds".Not only does this **** scaling up,it negates the use of Sasuke's fastest and among his strongest Jutsu's,the Kirin.Kirin is solidly lightning speed,and has a nice amount of evidence to support it's speed.But a much weaker Sasuke dodging a SoL attack based off of a dubious source?Nn top of that,not a single character based off of numerous other calcs has shown a speed near this,minus the God Tiers(if im correct).It would make no logical sense for a Sasuke this many arcs back to have similar speed to a much stronger version of himself.

While I am technically an inactive user,I simply had to add my own input.Good day.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I share the same opinion as TataHakai.

 

[Jvando]

> You would need a pretty nifty assumption to say that they stopped in from to Madara and Mu then attacked them because if that was the case, then mu would not have been knocked back so easily.

What makes you say that? Why couldn't it just be that the Raikage attacked faster than Mu could react?

Also to answer this question, you can clearly see that A does not have his Lightning Chakra Cloak on his body as he attacks Muu.




This means two things:

1) The assumption that base Ay, without his lightning cloak, could attack a higher tier character (based on Base Ay's current tier rating) before they could react is still a pretty big one to make. It is much more probable that Muu was having a hard time reacting to the speed at which they were traveling.

2) Base Ay needs to be upgraded to 7-A

"But in the previous panel we see that they noticed them-"

Just because you notice something, doesn't mean you can react to it in time.

Also, Muu is capable of reacting KCM Naruto, the same KCM who easily reacted to Ay (With the lightning chakra cloak) max speed. But he couldn't react to Ay while Mabui's teleport.

Like honestly, if Ay and Tsunade had landed before they attacked, why would Ay not use his Lightning Chakra Cloak before attacking? It's not like it even takes long to activate, he literally does it near instantaneously every time he attacks. The more you break down this scene, the harder it is to assert that A and Tsunade landed before they attacked.

 

[Wokistan]

As I said before, I think those quotes and such would be fine in a vacuum for light speed things.

I have no idea how this affects scaling and such nor the context and would rather not get involved with that.