Naruto's lightspeed statements and their consistency

[Gogogozoom7]

@M3X

1)Calm down.

2)The key words here are,other works,and magic.It's been repeatedly said to keep other franchises out of this thread,yet you insist on "they do it,so it applies here too".I don't know the context concerning what you've stated with Dragon Ball,it doesn't matter to this thread nonetheless.

3)Repeatedly stating that something doesn't make sense isn't any help towards your arguments.Sasuke reacts to Bee's movements,correct.Although,Bee's movements aren't near lightspeed,nor is this proof of such.What's shown in your next scan is Sasuke dodging an attack from Bee in his Eight Tails form.He didn't use lariat.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

It seems you weren't replying to my post. My bad.

 

[Damage3245]

Statements aren't always accepted at face value:

• If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character?

In this case we need to examine it.

Now what we know is that the attack which supposedly travels at lightspeed is shown to be comparable to several other markedly slower attacks.

And there are no feats, statements or calcs from the original manga supporting this statement from a secondary source.

So while it might be incredibly easy for other people to just accept it at face value, I think I'm justified in being skeptical.

 

[Rocker1189]

@M3X
1)Calm down.

2)The key words here are,other works,and magic.It's been repeatedly said to keep other franchises out of this thread,yet you insist on "they do it,so it applies here too".I don't know the context concerning what you've stated with Dragon Ball,it doesn't matter nonetheless.

3)Repeatedly stating that something doesn't make sense isn't any help towards your arguments.Sasuke reacts to Bee's movements,correct.Although,Bee's movements aren't near lightspeed,nor is this proof of such.What's shown in your next scan is Sasuke dodging an attack from Bee in his Eight Tails form.He didn't use lariat.

2. It does or it is a double standard.

3. The proof literally says he is near light speed, there is no arguing that you either accept it or you dont. His lariat is him opening up his arm and chargung he only says lariat when it connects.

 

[Gogogozoom7]

To add a bit onto my post,I don't doubt that(if accepted) the Lariat is near lightspeed.

 

[Jvando]

Why does it matter what other verses do? What relevance is that to this discussion?

I'm of the belief that there should never be double standards in rating the abilities of individuals across different verses.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of the argument "But [x] does this so [y] should get it as well." However when it comes to situations where we question the legitimacy of a feat when something similar happens across numerous other verses without much question or even thought, you can see how I might find that mildly grating.

I disdain double standards for anything unless there is a very very good reason for it (which there usually never is).

 

[M3X_2.0]

The key words here are,other works,and magic.It's been repeatedly said to keep other franchises out of this thread,yet you insist on "they do it,so it applies here too".I don't know the context concerning what you've stated with Dragon Ball,it doesn't matter nonetheless.

This is just a visual thing, man. This occurs in almost every work, where attacks are launched and hit the target at the same time, even with faster attacks. This is something common, I do not know how this is a problem. We lready have a powerscaling between attacks here on this Wiki, just because an attack kepot up with a lightning bolt in speed

Repeatedly stating that something doesn't make sense isn't any help towards your arguments.Sasuke reacts to Bee's movements,correct.Although,Bee's movements aren't near lightspeed,nor is this proof of such.What's shown in your next scan is Sasuke dodging an attack from Bee in his Eight Tails form.He didn't use lariat.

"Repeatedly stating that something doesn't make sense isn't any help towards your arguments" Say this to Damage, not me. Bee's movement would be almost LS with the scaling. You guys are ignoring the whole scaling to claim inconsistency. This was Lariat

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; I can understand that, but couldn't also be the case that what happens with numerous other verses may be wrong sometimes?

 

[Rocker1189]

@Jvando; I can understand that, but couldn't also be the case that what happens with numerous other verses may be wrong sometimes?

then changes the standard first lol or it feels like a verse is being singled out.

 

[Damage3245]

@Rocker1189; my point is that this doesn't seem to be an accepted standard written down anywhere on the site.

 

[Rocker1189]

but it is a standard consistently used and thus should apply here unless that is not the case.

 

[Jvando]

@Jvando; I can understand that, but couldn't also be the case that what happens with numerous other verses may be wrong sometimes?

100% depends on the context of the situation.

The situations in which "different forces join their hands together and attack their common enemy at the same time to show the depths of their connection in that moment" is one of the most common trope in all of fiction. There's a reason we wouldn't scale character [C] and [D] throwing out an attack towards their enemy at the same speed as their comrade [A] and "fusing into one before hitting the enemy" to comrade [A] When he/she is shown, calced, and/or stated to be much faster than the other three. This type of situation is common across many forms of media.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'm personally fine with the teleport Jutsu being light speed. All these other techniques being light speed or near light-speed is pretty illogical to me regardless of what the Databook says.

Madara reacting to light speed teleport, but did he not fail to react to sasuke's teleport jutsu?

Night Guy has been argued to be rel based off of bending space although rejected, Madara fails to react to it.

Kirin was being hyped up as the fastest jutsu in the series 1 arc before I think. You could argue Itachi was sick I guess. But didn't he fail to react to light technique used by sage Kabuto? ( I saw someone argue it being light)

Then you have light fang, the only legit light speed technique in the series imo. What was it purpose of it? With the proposed scaling chain its child's play with anyone starting from ay likely being able to dodge it.

Kakashi who is not a fodder was being hyped up since the start of the series as being capable to cut a bolt of lightning, which I think was calced at like Mach 3k? Why would this be impressive if even Samurai have a light speed slash.

Hell The chidori can't even be used without sharingan because it's too fast making it difficult to control with it. Although this prob means nothing.

This is what I think about this personally. No god tier in the series so far has a feat close to any of the supposed one except Madara's light fang. I'd say it's pretty illogical for someone to be that fast in that period of time of the series.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, if this unspoken rule holds up - and everyone is fine with there being no supporting feats/statements/calcs from the manga itself to go with the databook statement - then it should be fine.

Though it seems like almost everyone here agrees that it wouldn't scale to the fodder samurai with the exception of M3X.

 

[Gogogozoom7]

@M3X,if the attacks are launched at similar times,and hit the target at similar times,would that not mean the attacks are similar in speed?I thought you stated this thread wasn't for scaling before.Nonetheless,I have no need to state that to Damage because people have actually provided examples of why it wouldn't make sense,and why it's an inconsistency.Ah,really it does seem to be lariat.I thought lariat had something to distinguish it visually.Thank's for the clear up.

Once again just to be clear,im not against near lightspeed lariat.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

Lorenzo u make no sense bruh. Minato has reaction speed that scales to Ay and faster.

Jutsus that can catch Sasuke off guard are obviously faster than lightning and scale to the character who uses the jutsu if it's fire style or different

oh really? from where? cuz him getting tagged by kid obito and almost getting his head blown off by ay dont make it seem like that.

but they really arent. it just means that the characters arent light timers. its really that simple. otherwise we would have light speed 4 tailed naruto who could fight orochimaru, who could easily react to sasuke, who is supposedly sub rel. the same orochimaru is equal to base jiraya, who could fight the same 4 tailed naruto. pain's paths could fight the same jiraya, which in turn makes konohamaru as a genin a light timer. u sure u wanna go down that lane? like, really?

 

[Rocker1189]

I'm personally fine with the teleport Jutsu being light speed. All these other techniques being light speed or near light-speed is pretty illogical to me regardless of what the Databook says.
Madara reacting to light speed teleport, but did he not fail to react to sasuke's teleport jutsu?

Night Guy has been argued to be rel based off of bending space although rejected, Madara fails to react to it.

Kirin was being hyped up as the fastest jutsu in the series 1 arc before I think. You could argue Itachi was sick I guess. But didn't he fail to react to light technique used by sage Kabuto? ( I saw someone argue it being light)

Then you have light fang, the only legit light speed technique in the series imo. What was it purpose of it? With the proposed scaling chain its child's play with anyone starting from ay likely being able to dodge it.

Kakashi who is not a fodder was being hyped up since the start of the series as being capable to cut a bolt of lightning, which I think was calced at like Mach 3k? Why would this be impressive if even Samurai have a light speed slash.

Hell The chidori can't even be used without sharingan because it's too fast making it difficult to control with it. Although this prob means nothing.

This is what I think about this personally. No god tier in the series so far has a feat close to any of the supposed one except Madara's light fang. I'd say it's pretty illogical for someone to be that fast in that period of time of the series.

sasuke teleportation is instantaneous and has no speed nor any travel time false equivalency.

You mean when Madara was surprised and could have reacted but did not? Its not like he could not move, he literally stood and watched.

Only one samurai attack is light speed imo and that is mifune, who is hyped up fior his ability to slice so fast that ninja can never form hand seals, these same ninja that form hand seals in the such tme that you can not see them being formed at times(which mysteriously lines up with lariat against kisame). And Kakashi was fodder early on he was terrified of orochimaru and got stomped by Itachi not using full strength it is only in the war arc that he really got into the mid tier.

You are right chidori is inconsequtial is relies on the user's speed.

And based on evidence you are wrong.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I will respond you later Sigurd. Can someone show me why this doesnt apply to samurais?

 

[Rocker1189]

I will respond you later Sigurd. Can someone show me why this doesnt apply to samurais?

the databook did specify mifune's name and I think it is the safer bet.

 

[Jvando]

Madara reacting to light speed teleport, but did he not fail to react to sasuke's teleport jutsu?

Sasuke's teleport is instant just like the Flying Raijin. I'm not sure why this is even part of your argument.

Night Guy has been argued to be rel based off of bending space although rejected, Madara fails to react to it.

And no one has even brought it up because we can't even tell why space was bending. Might have been due to speed. Might have been due to his technique. Moot point since it was rejected so there's no need to even bring it up.

Kirin was being hyped up as the fastest jutsu in the series 1 arc before I think. You could argue Itachi was sick I guess. But didn't he fail to react to light technique used by sage Kabuto? ( I saw someone argue it being light)

Itachi was sick.

Based on the manga, you could argue both ways for over 1000 comments without coming to a consensus. There's a reason why it's not even part of this thread.

Then you have light fang, the only legit light speed technique in the series imo. What was it purpose of it? With the proposed scaling chain its child's play with anyone starting from ay likely being able to dodge it.

A point blank range surprise technique launched from the user's mouth is hardly something I would consider "Child's play" to dodge. BTW, you would need FTL reaction speeds to dodge it at such a range which no one is arguing for Ay.

Kakashi who is not a fodder was being hyped up since the start of the series as being capable to cut a bolt of lightning, which I think was calced at like Mach 3k? Why would this be impressive if even Samurai have a light speed slash.

You're really gonna compare part 1 naruto to Naruto Shippüden in terms of scaling? In one part, we have like highest low 7-C feats (could be wrong, but doesn't really matter to my point) while in the other part, we have 5-B god tiers. Don't compare them.

This is what I think about this personally. No god tier in the series so far has a feat close to any of the supposed one except Madaras Light Fang.

If we only ever went off of explicit feats in everything we scaled on this Wiki, there would not doubt be many more verses with nothing close to LS on their table. As long as the statement is consistent within the story, doesn't completely screw up scaling, and makes sense given the levels of the characters, I honestly don't see why it has to be explicitly shown in every single feat.

 

[Jvando]

LS Issen should absolutely never scale to the samurai. It becomes inconsistent and there's no statements that they have anywhere near the same speed and/or power of Mifune's issen.

 

[M3X_2.0]

So, I think we can start calc Sasuke dodging Lariat. There's still a diacussion for Madara's feat. And we need to apply SoL attack speed for Mifune. Have Sasuke reacted to his Issen?

 

[M3X_2.0]

I will create another thread since this one is near 500 replies

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Jvando

Calcs take precedence over statements in a majority of cases, none of this makes sense for the period it was in. In series nothing proves any of this is light speed or near it. It's a massive outlier because there are no feats close without the use of Databook statements and no supporting evidence.

 

[M3X_2.0]

There are no feats? Come on dude, the high, top and god tier are current scaling from a low tier feat wich is mach 6.8 and we even have Sasuke dodging Kirin wich no one debunked. This is not an outlier

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Once again that Kirin calc isn't accepted. And do you know the gap between Mach 6k to at least Mach 100k+? This feat also belong to Shino like 20 years after Naruto ended or something.

 

[Damage3245]

You can't exactly it was not debunked if it was rejected and it's not on Sasuke's profile.

Backscaling from Shino's feat in the Boruto anime is a bit sketchy in my opinion. No CRT was even made for it in the first place.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Sasuke dodging was accepted. We just need to firegure out Kirin's speed since it have a lot of ways to calc.

And do you know the gap between Mach 6k to at least Mach 100k+? This feat also belong to Shino like 20 years after Naruto ended or something.

So what? What does a huge gap matter if the characters are constantly receiving upgrades? This Shino feat scales characters like Kakashi and these elite Jonins. (Even Shino being just a teacher, let's do a highball and put him as elite Jonin). There are extremely faster characters than Shino as the Raikage itself.

Raikage > Sasuke MS > Sasuke Hebi > Blizted Naruto = Kakashi's speed = Mach 6800

No outlier here

 

[Rocker1189]

Once again that Kirin calc isn't accepted. And do you know the gap between Mach 6k to at least Mach 100k+? This feat also belong to Shino like 20 years after Naruto ended or something.

That does not matter shino is still fodder compared to the rest of the verse. what like bleach going from mhs+ to rela? cmon dude dont even try this.

what even is their mhs+ feat?

 

[Jvando]

@Jvando

Calcs take precedence over statements in a majority of cases, none of this makes sense for the period it was in. In series nothing proves any of this is light speed or near it. It's a massive outlier because there are no feats close without the use of Databook statements and no supporting evidence.

We still have the solid feat of Madara blocking the attack from the LS transport that hasn't even really gotten sufficient counter evidence. Most of it has just been a chain of conjecture to try and claim they landed first before attacking which requires a lot more assumptions than just flat out saying they have relativistic reactions, supported by Databook statements and the anime. and again:

TataHakai I'm staying neutral on this

However if we had someone dodge a stated lightspeed attack then have someone else relative to them stated to be stated to be near lightspeed then in any other verse that'd probably be accepted without argument.

 

[M3X_2.0]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3176411

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Sasuke dodging isn't accepted, none of that is. Hell it seems the speed of Kirin is contested.

I'm quite certain backwards scaling after like a decade timeskip is allowed based off of nothing but title is allowed.

This scaling chain doesn't prove anything, it just means those characters are unquantifiably higher then Mach 6800. This doesn't prove it's not an outlier.