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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

UchihaSlayer96 said:
Never challenge Deceived to a "☝️🤓 "-off
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YARN | My time has come. | Kung Fu Panda (2008) | Video clips by quotes | 9384c2c5 | 紗
 
Deceived3596 said:
Me committing a Nominal Fallacy implies I'm asserting that merely providing something a name innately explains what it is. I'm not doing that. What I'm doing is relaying already accepted information, by explaining the evidence through the justifications provided. So this is a complete misinterpretation of what I asserted in my post.

It's stated that Training and Experience facilitates the development of spiritual and mental energies, not that they're key components that comprise said spiritual and mental energies. It's tantamount to assuming cells construct human thoughts, and thus thoughts aren't mind-dependent, immaterial properties, because cells are physical particles that develop and constitute the structures needed for thoughts to occur. You're committing a Compositional Fallacy by doing this - by inferring the validity of Training and Experience causing the development of mental and spiritual energies, You then incorrectly assume Training and Experience wholly constructs mental and spiritual energies, when it doesn't as sufficiently explained above.

Now this is a Nominal Fallacy. By asserting it's hyperbolic, you presume that it fully explains why it's hyperbolic, despite the fact that it is not accepted on this site nor sufficiently explained in your post.

We objectively do have direct evidence of this being true. It's explicitly stated that TSO can erase all Ninjutsu and Dan's spiritual body technique is explicitly described as a Ninjutsu in the databooks. Asserting any other conclusion requires us to explain that "all" Ninjutsu doesn't actually encompass "all" Ninjutsu, which hasn't been done yet. Actually explain why Dan's spiritual body technique wouldn't get interacted with and erased by TSO?

It wouldn't because the argument for Minato having his spiritual body returned back into the Pure Lands is contextualized to a mechanic with the Edo Tensei, which is something Dan isn't subjected to because his Ninjutsu doesn't tie his spiritual body to his physical one through a Ninjutsu. It rather simply, astrally projects himself. It would require the TSO to actually hit his spiritual form to nullify the Ninjutsu that is allowing him to astrally project himself in the first place.
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Wow
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1103829419296034856/1315883186198286487/IMG_3633.jpg?ex=67590737&is=6757b5b7&hm=181b6cd6b4717e523d46cb30fdbe1aa104c297e36f08c5db43228fa397440ad2&
 
Deceived is like that one anime character that acts goofy all the time but when the right time comes they lock in completely
 
Deceived3596 said:
Me committing a Nominal Fallacy implies I'm asserting that merely providing something a name innately explains what it is. I'm not doing that. What I'm doing is relaying already accepted information, by explaining the evidence through the justifications provided. So this is a complete misinterpretation of what I asserted in my post.
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Where is this accepted cause I don't see it on the verse page. All I see is this one The Mechanics of Chakra Enhancement.
Deceived3596 said:
It's stated that Training and Experience facilitates the development of spiritual and mental energies, not that they're key components that comprise said spiritual and mental energies. It's tantamount to assuming cells construct human thoughts, and thus thoughts aren't mind-dependent, immaterial properties, because cells are physical particles that develop and constitute the structures needed for thoughts to occur. You're committing a Compositional Fallacy by doing this - by inferring the validity of Training and Experience causing the development of mental and spiritual energies, You then incorrectly assume Training and Experience wholly constructs mental and spiritual energies, when it doesn't as sufficiently explained above.
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As stated above you didn't explain anything, you just said it's accepted. None of what you said checks out for what the site uses for soul manipulation which is the following.
Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others. This ability ranges from being able to project the power of one's soul outward, grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies, outright consuming souls to gain power, among other applications.
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Training and experience do not correlate with the above definition the site uses at all. What are the key components that create said spiritual and mental energies? Since all that is listed for us in the databook and manga is Training and Experience which as shown above have nothing to do with soul manipulation. All you have is speculation here to try and prove a false point.
Deceived3596 said:
Now this is a Nominal Fallacy. By asserting it's hyperbolic, you presume that it fully explains why it's hyperbolic, despite the fact that it is not accepted on this site nor sufficiently explained in your post.
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Wow just like someone else here who fails to explain soul manipulation = training and experience while resorting to "it's accepted". But hey its like how Sasuke's Susanoo defeated all the enemies at the kage summit when he used it already proving the claim "a formidable-looking warrior whose rampaging soul will not settle down until it has destroyed all enemies before him." false.
Deceived3596 said:
We objectively do have direct evidence of this being true. It's explicitly stated that TSO can erase all Ninjutsu and Dan's spiritual body technique is explicitly described as a Ninjutsu in the databooks. Asserting any other conclusion requires us to explain that "all" Ninjutsu doesn't actually encompass "all" Ninjutsu, which hasn't been done yet. Actually explain why Dan's spiritual body technique wouldn't get interacted with and erased by TSO?
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Wait so it negs all ninjutsu? The same that can't erase sage jutsu that's classified as ninjutsu too? That claim is already false. Why not provide evidence for TSB affecting the soul, to begin with since we already know it can't neg all ninjutsu now and that there is no evidence of it interacting with souls too so you just have more speculation on your end.
Deceived3596 said:
It wouldn't because the argument for Minato having his spiritual body returned back into the Pure Lands is contextualized to a mechanic with the Edo Tensei, which is something Dan isn't subjected to because his Ninjutsu doesn't tie his spiritual body to his physical one through a Ninjutsu. It rather simply, astrally projects himself. It would require the TSO to actually hit his spiritual form to nullify the Ninjutsu that is allowing him to astrally project himself in the first place.
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So do we have any evidence of TSO being able to interact with astral projects or souls to assume it would be able to neg Dan's soul?
 
KingogKings777 said:
Where is this accepted cause I don't see it on the verse page. All I see is this one The Mechanics of Chakra Enhancement.

As stated above you didn't explain anything, you just said it's accepted. None of what you said checks out for what the site uses for soul manipulation which is the following.

Training and experience do not correlate with the above definition the site uses at all. What are the key components that create said spiritual and mental energies? Since all that is listed for us in the databook and manga is Training and Experience which as shown above have nothing to do with soul manipulation. All you have is speculation here to try and prove a false point.

Wow just like someone else here who fails to explain soul manipulation = training and experience while resorting to "it's accepted". But hey its like how Sasuke's Susanoo defeated all the enemies at the kage summit when he used it already proving the claim "a formidable-looking warrior whose rampaging soul will not settle down until it has destroyed all enemies before him." false.

Wait so it negs all ninjutsu? The same that can't erase sage jutsu that's classified as ninjutsu too? That claim is already false. Why not provide evidence for TSB affecting the soul, to begin with since we already know it can't neg all ninjutsu now and that there is no evidence of it interacting with souls too so you just have more speculation on your end.

So do we have any evidence of TSO being able to interact with astral projects or souls to assume it would be able to neg Dan's soul?
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Oh brother the ignorance
 
KingogKings777 said:
Where is this accepted cause I don't see it on the verse page. All I see is this one The Mechanics of Chakra Enhancement.
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It's accepted on Hagoromo's profile, and anyone else who utilizes TSO or Susanoo, who has an updated profile; It not being on the verse page is because a blog specifically for it hasn't been made yet. Not that the energy isn't accepted as having this component with it.

KingogKings777 said:
As stated above you didn't explain anything, you just said it's accepted. None of what you said checks out for what the site uses for soul manipulation which is the following.

Training and experience do not correlate with the above definition the site uses at all. What are the key components that create said spiritual and mental energies? Since all that is listed for us in the databook and manga is Training and Experience which as shown above have nothing to do with soul manipulation. All you have is speculation here to try and prove a false point.
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In the explanation of Soul Manipulation, one of the qualifiers for the ability is "being able to project the power of one's soul outward." By "power" they're referencing spiritual energy sources, which are normally derived from one's soul. Chakra, and subsequently anything constructed off it (especially when utilizing the spiritual portion of the energy system) falls under this category without issue. Stuff like TSO also fall under "the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others" as it can interact with Susanoo's explicitly, while possessing indicative evidence of it being able to interact with Dan's spiritual body while he's utilizing his Ninjutsu.

Training and Experience itself doesn't, but the energy specifically created in Naruto that is described as being / is shown as spiritual, does. It's an in-verse mechanic, so deferring to the Soul Manipulation page as a defeater, without also incorporating that context misses out on what actually matters here, which is the energy developed. You're claiming that spiritual and mental energies within Naruto aren't actually spiritual, but are rather "Training and Experience" energies, which is completely nonsensical and logically fallacious as I explained previously.

KingogKings777 said:
Wow just like someone else here who fails to explain soul manipulation = training and experience while resorting to "it's accepted". But hey its like how Sasuke's Susanoo defeated all the enemies at the kage summit when he used it already proving the claim "a formidable-looking warrior whose rampaging soul will not settle down until it has destroyed all enemies before him." false.
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I gave you an explanation before and now, and you still won't accept it because you have a fundamental disagreement with Chakra being spiritual in any meaningful capacity. It's not a fault of me being unconvincing or not providing any explanation, but you not accepting the explanations I give.

You believe the statement is hyperbolic, but still haven't provided sufficient reasoning as to why it is. Just giving me the statement without explaining why it's hyperbolic doesn't provide any validity or soundness to your claim. I could just equally assume it's valid and we would have the same level of evidence supporting our interpretation.

KingogKings777 said:
Wait so it negs all ninjutsu? The same that can't erase sage jutsu that's classified as ninjutsu too? That claim is already false. Why not provide evidence for TSB affecting the soul, to begin with since we already know it can't neg all ninjutsu now and that there is no evidence of it interacting with souls too so you just have more speculation on your end.
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You're now committing a False Equivalence Fallacy by equating the weakness TSO have to Ninjutsu enhanced with Nature Energy, with the validity of the statement about it being capable of erasing all Ninjutsu. It's a flawed rationale because Sage Energy is explicitly stated to be a weakness to TSO, so it's automatically exempt from the statement, while Dan's Ninjutsu has no such statement or even slight implication outside of speculation, so it isn't.

I've already provided enough rationale to support the conclusion of my claim without compromising its logical structure, so it's a sound proposition. Your counter retort was fallacious, it possesses an unsound premise within it, so it isn't a sound proposition. Until you provide at least a comparative level of soundness to your claim, your argument doesn't logically hold.

KingogKings777 said:
So do we have any evidence of TSO being able to interact with astral projects or souls to assume it would be able to neg Dan's soul?
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I do. My evidence is the statement about TSO being able to nullify all Ninjutsu, which is caused by the orb interacting with a particular Ninjutsu. Dan's spiritual body technique is described as "the user's own soul is detached from the body and becomes a ghost" and is explicitly classified as a Ninjutsu. So, we can logically deduce here by a process of Abductive Reasoning that the most likely conclusion we can reach with the given evidence is that TSO can interact with Dan because his technique is Ninjutsu-based, and TSO can interact with Ninjutsu, blanketly.

It's a very simple and logically sound conclusion to reach.
 
MinatoSparkle said:
I just rewatched the Naruto vs Pain fight and holy why is the part after Naruto get his hands stabbed so much better than before that
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Different animator and the pain arc actually had insane amount of issues production wise as the team was split between both the bleach and naruto movie at the time
 
Deceived3596 said:
It also can interact with Raw Chakra and Susanoo; both of which are spiritually comprised. Especially Susanoo as they're explicitly stated to be one's soul given tangible form.
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Maybe this is just me - but I think that interacting with the Susano'o wouldn't count as Soul Manipulation in that sense. If the Susano'o is the soul given tangible form, then that doesn't mean that interacting with it is necessarily manipulating the soul itself.

To give an example, if Character A used Air Manipulation to solidify the air around him into a blade, and then Character B picked up that blade to wield it, I wouldn't say that Character B necessarily has Air Manipulation because of how he's interacting with tangible air. Unless it was shown that ordinary people couldn't touch it, etc.
 
Damage3245 said:
Maybe this is just me - but I think that interacting with the Susano'o wouldn't count as Soul Manipulation in that sense. If the Susano'o is the soul given tangible form, then that doesn't mean that interacting with it is necessarily manipulating the soul itself.

To give an example, if Character A used Air Manipulation to solidify the air around him into a blade, and then Character B picked up that blade to wield it, I wouldn't say that Character B necessarily has Air Manipulation because of how he's interacting with tangible air. Unless it was shown that ordinary people couldn't touch it, etc.
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It doesn't necessarily mean they're manipulating, or more accurately, affecting the soul itself in any meaningful way to gain Soul Manipulation. I can understand that interpretation, but I wasn't making a necessary claim here. I merely said that interacting with the Susanoo is, under my opinion, as the post is about what I believe to be true, is evidence for my claim because of the indication of it being the projection of one's soul.

I also understand what you're trying to convey here, I just don't agree with the example used because Air itself is already physical before being condensed into something that can be interacted with by anyone else, regardless of them preemptively possessing the ability or not. While that's not the case here; Susanoo, if assumed true to be the projection of one's soul given "tangible form", doesn't then inherently presume the Susanoo is constructed of anything physical, as tangibility isn't inherently tied to just material objects alone, within fiction, as proven by the existence of Soul Manipulation itself - an ability that allows someone to tangibility interact with structures that are normally intangible. Because of this, I believe we can reach logically sound conclusions on either side as it's up to our own interpretation of the statement and how it meshes with how we interpret the series.

Basically, I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, I just believe the other interpretation is more likely to be true.
 
Yeah, I get what you're saying there. It makes sense to me.

Just that also, I don't think we can assume that the Susano'o is normally intangible. The main purpose of the Susano'o is to be defensive shield and it interacts with the physical world. Even ordinary objects - that don't have the inherent property of manipulating souls - should be able to interact with the Susano'o. Danzo's Kunai for example.
 
Damage3245 said:
There's no chakra visibly enhancing it there. We've seen what Chakra Flow looks like on weapons. Danzo does actually enhance his Kunai later in the fight, but after the above scene.
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You don’t see glowing effects each time chakra is applied, you can have a weapon fully enhanced with chakra and not give off any aura as seen here (check bottom left)https://media.**********.net/attachments/1103829419296034856/1316029224154435615/IMG_3642.jpg?ex=67598f39&is=67583db9&hm=f62e5476c8541548789baf37117f39513f082ab4a0476dc19d32be2de82b3867&
 
Ghostimuscrime said:
You don’t see glowing effects each time chakra is applied, you can have a weapon fully enhanced with chakra and not give off any aura as seen here (check bottom left)
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It's possible that's a Boruto art style choice.

But aside from that; do you think that Danzo's Kunai would've slipped right through the Susano'o and hit Sasuke if he didn't enhance his Kunai with chakra?
 
Damage3245 said:
It's possible that's a Boruto art style choice.

But aside from that; do you think that Danzo's Kunai would've slipped right through the Susano'o and hit Sasuke if he didn't enhance his Kunai with chakra?
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Damage you cannot be serious, chakra being applied without showing aura (unless for special natures) has been consistent throughout the entire series, it’s not an art style choice when chakra sparks are shown separately when he uses lasers 😭
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1103829419296034856/1316034299513933895/IMG_3649.jpg?ex=675993f3&is=67584273&hm=9020ff8f6a73b9f986e05721735b79cedbf91a3aa4493921222ba0c663ab01a5&

https://media.**********.net/attachments/1103829419296034856/1316034809566466058/IMG_3650.jpg?ex=6759946d&is=675842ed&hm=587c00b47b54a663bd017a6e9f1a57a57aef8dd69576265bd3435e49ed472dbd&


I do not wish to comment on the overall discussion regarding the soul manip stuff, i just didn’t agree with your specific example, as for would it pass through I don’t know, maybe it can maybe it can’t, I can’t think of a situation where non amped kunai hasn’t passed through susanos, however Itachi’s spirit weapons were stated directly to be spiritual in its properties and they’re extensions of the susano so I’m not opposed to thinking they can be spiritual, however if such examples of non amped weaponry affecting susanos exist then they wouldn’t qualify for being abstract structures, I doubt such evidence exists given that susano showcases tend to be rare
 
Ghostimuscrime said:
Black Clover got confirmed by its writer to be inspired by Naruto LFG

Another inspo in Naruto’s giant bag
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aswell as One piece, bleach, Dragon ball and YYH. not to add it was pretty obvious from the start
can’t say it’s something to be proud of
 
KaydeeX said:
aswell as One piece, bleach, Dragon ball and YYH. not to add it was pretty obvious from the start
can’t say it’s something to be proud of
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Inspiring the next generation of manga is most certainly something to be proud of even if the series being inspired isn’t that great and naturally it was obvious but some people loved to be in denial since the writer hasn’t “directly” stated that

And now that’s gone too, Kishi probably has the largest bag when it comes to inspiring other series after Togashi and Toriyama when counting the last 20 years
 
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