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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

karo_senpaii said:
Now they all surpass jigen. I don't see how code would be the different one and only surpass via karma.
Click to expand...
But you see, Code sucks
Samlex1234 said:
The problem is that we already have a lightspeed statement accepted. Now it becomes a cap (Arc).

With divine speed that transcends all known speed, this laser cuts at the speed of light, so fast that even Boruto cannot hope to dodge it. Truly astonishing
Click to expand...
Are you doing a sarcastic hypothetical future impression?
 
Samlex1234 said:
The problem is that we already have a lightspeed statement accepted. Now it becomes a cap (Arc).

With divine speed that transcends all known speed, this laser cuts at the speed of light, so fast that even Boruto cannot hope to dodge it. Truly astonishing
Click to expand...
Transcends all known speed > Light Fang

Light Speed = Light Fang

Light Fang > Light Fang
 
karo_senpaii said:
These numbers are too close to each other considering the gap between limited and NL.

I don't think karma can be that much of a boost specifically codes. We know v1 is a boost but V2 is the main power house but that's not the main thing.

My thing . There are people that surpass jigen. This is not an easy feat as jigen is a power house. Now what similarity do they all share that make them surpass jigen? They were inplanted with shibai cells and the cells augmented and made the powerful.
Now they all surpass jigen. I don't see how code would be the different one and only surpass via karma.

Also when code usually talks about his power differencr with no limiters he seems to not even hint at karma. Like eve when he was making his army snd explaining to bug. He kept talking about his original power as opposed to karma.

Also think about this. If karma is thing that adds to his base power that made him supass jigen instead of going through the stress of limiting himself and leaving his powers in the hands of amado (who he hates), why not just not use karma? That way he'd be below jigen even if it's slightly? Dude seems to hate how his karma is a dud so much
Click to expand...
Amado specifically stated that when Code got the WK, that was when he surpassed Jigen. Amado specifically gave the reason for Code's strength to be the WK.

Yes, Code's base strength was what was limited by Amado. But base strength has to interact with karma to bring out the individual's full potential. Weaker base, weaker karma power. I don't believe Code's base strength alone is stronger than V2Jigen. At this point, there's no way to scale base Code.

We are not sure what Shibai's cells did for base Code. It does different things for everybody. It didn't seem to empower Eida like Daemon physically. Neither did it give Daemon flight like Eida. And it's mostly towards awakening a shinjutsu rather than boosting stats. Though I don't deny that it can boost stats, the level most likely varies for different individuals. Daemon's strength could also potentially be a shinjutsu itself.
 
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Kayzz said:
Amado specifically stated that when Code got the WK, that was when he surpassed Jigen. Amado specifically gave the reason for Code's strength to be the WK.

Yes, Code's base strength was what was limited by Amado. But base strength has to interact with karma to bring out the individual's full potential. Weaker base, weaker karma power. I don't believe Code's base strength alone is stronger than V2Jigen. At this point, there's no way to scale base Code.

We are not sure what Shibai's cells did for base Code. It does different things for everybody. It didn't seem to empower Eida like Daemon physically. Neither did it give Daemon flight like Eida. And it's mostly towards awakening a shinjutsu rather than boosting stats. Daemon's strength can potentially be a shinjutsu itself.
Click to expand...
1. Please drop the scan for your statement
2. Again if WK was the main reason why would code let anyone who was not an otsusuki to limit his power let alone someone he hates like amado? It makes no sense. If WK makes him surpass jigen then simply don't activate WK. Problems solved.

3. Yeah this is flat out wrong. When talking about cyborgs who surpass jigen amado statement prior was talking about combat ability. It definitely amped all of them physically. Tak hashirama cells for example. They amp you physically immediately you awaken to be able to use wood release. When Obito went on rage his physical strength went up exponentially. It's the same thing.
Please never confuse ada not being skilled and not liking violence to being weak..she surpasses jigen, her Shinjutsu jigen is completely immune to it . The only way to surpass jigen is by combat. Daemon strength being Shinjutsu is just headcanon so I'd just ignore it.
 
MinatoSparkle said:
Oh yeah I had forgotten that nuance to the statement
Click to expand...
I think this statement is being misinterpreted. The reaction is the karma changing his body. Kinda like how boruto body changed after karma was overlayed on him or even kawaki. Actually this statement just makes me believe it's base code. By definition a reaction like that is something that can't be reversed. So it's like the combination of karma overlayed on his body and the shibai cells completely changed his physiology and that's why his Shinjutsu is heavily linked to even his blood. This would just apply to base code ngl
 
Guys let's reason together

Do you think Toneri is in any form close to full power Naruto in the last, if so give me your reason, if not give me your reasons
 
Samlex1234 said:
The problem is that we already have a lightspeed statement accepted. Now it becomes a cap (Arc).

With divine speed that transcends all known speed, this laser cuts at the speed of light, so fast that even Boruto cannot hope to dodge it. Truly astonishing
Click to expand...
I mean if they said that it just would be a cap 💀 stop pre-emptively coping tho, that ain’t gonna happen
 
karo_senpaii said:
I think this statement is being misinterpreted. The reaction is the karma changing his body. Kinda like how boruto body changed after karma was overlayed on him or even kawaki. Actually this statement just makes me believe it's base code. By definition a reaction like that is something that can't be reversed. So it's like the combination of karma overlayed on his body and the shibai cells completely changed his physiology and that's why his Shinjutsu is heavily linked to even his blood. This would just apply to base code ngl
Click to expand...
It can simply be both, in that the reaction amped his base stats enough that his Karma state surpassed Jigen. There's specific emphasis on Karma's aspect of being a weapon, which is the exact description given to Kawaki going Otsutsuki mode.
 
As i was typing i thought about it more and I finally get the whole picture.
So we get a flash back of when the karma process happens and shortly after the process we see code being jealous of kawaki why he got chosen bla bla bla. From the design we can see a claw mark on his head already so we can tell he awakened his Shinjutsu very early.

Let me explain amado's process.
I'm thinking every candidate was given shibai cells before making them vessels. Ishikki was probably thinking of buffing himself too when he reincarnated. This makes me think kawaki has not awakened his.

1. Now during the process all candidates died except 2 which is code and kawaki. Kawaki suceeded but didn't awaken any Shinjutsu.

2. Code on the other hand failed but awakened Shinjutsu. But there was an unusual reaction with jigen overlaying him with karma and that reacted with the shibai DNA in him to make him what he is.
From this I can infere that :
a. Code surpassing jigen happened from the karma reaction and that would be something affecting his biology instead of a temporary power up anytime he activates karma. So base code is always above. It's not like you activate karma the moment you get it anyway
b. The code that surpassed jigen is code as a kid. So code has only gotten stronger since then , he probably trained with jigen (dude was trying so hard). Not sure how much stronger though since it possible his powers were sealed shortly after the ritual when the reaction took place
 
Samlex1234 said:
Guys let's reason together

Do you think Toneri is in any form close to full power Naruto in the last, if so give me your reason, if not give me your reasons
Click to expand...
I think it's kind of vague. It depends on multiple things
1. Is BSM Naruto close to SPSM Naruto?
2. Is Naruto being in BSM simply due to the animators not knowing SPSM at the time?
3. Even if so, did the writers account for that by writing BSM Naruto as the same strength as SPSM Naruto or just make do?
4. Is Naruto missing half of Kurama a big deal?
karo_senpaii said:
Code on the other hand failed but awakened Shinjutsu. But there was an unusual reaction with jigen overlaying him with karma and that reacted with the shibai DNA in him to make him what he is.
From this I can infere that :
a. Code surpassing jigen happened from the karma reaction and that would be something affecting his biology instead of a temporary power up anytime he activates karma. So base code is always above. It's not like you activate karma the moment you get it anyway
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how this changes the point of contention?
 
MinatoSparkle said:
It can simply be both, in that the reaction amped his base stats enough that his Karma state surpassed Jigen. There's specific emphasis on Karma's aspect of being a weapon, which is the exact description given to Kawaki going Otsutsuki mode.
Click to expand...
My issue still remains the same.
I base<jigen and wK> jigen. Then why tell amado , someone he hates to seal his power and be the only one to be able to rescind it. He's basically given someone that's not an otsusuki power over him. That's not code like at all. Code would only do something like that if there was no other option. But going by base code<jigen then there is a very simple and clear option. Just don't use wK and you're always below jigen. Heck code actually hates the fact that he has it so it would be pretty good for him.

Also do you believe a fresh code out of ritual code activate karma so as for them to know his capabilities while it is active? Kawaki went through hell to be able to use it. Boruto needed kawaki to use his at first.
 
MinatoSparkle said:
I think it's kind of vague. It depends on multiple things
1. Is BSM Naruto close to SPSM Naruto?
2. Is Naruto being in BSM simply due to the animators not knowing SPSM at the time?
3. Even if so, did the writers account for that by writing BSM Naruto as the same strength as SPSM Naruto or just make do?
4. Is Naruto missing half of Kurama a big deal?

I'm not sure how this changes the point of contention?
Click to expand...
I was simply inferring that karma causing the reaction for > jigen ≠ karma must be active to be > jigen.
That's why I used boruto and kawaki. Karma changinf their body does not mean that they need karma active to reach certain levels
 
karo_senpaii said:
My issue still remains the same.
I base<jigen and wK> jigen. Then why tell amado , someone he hates to seal his power and be the only one to be able to rescind it. He's basically given someone that's not an otsusuki power over him. That's not code like at all. Code would only do something like that if there was no other option. But going by base code<jigen then there is a very simple and clear option. Just don't use wK and you're always below jigen. Heck code actually hates the fact that he has it so it would be pretty good for him.
Click to expand...
But then he's still effectively above Jigen in reality. A self imposed limit is much different than an actual limit you can't control, which gives Jigen's position that much more solidity.
karo_senpaii said:
Also do you believe a fresh code out of ritual code activate karma so as for them to know his capabilities while it is active? Kawaki went through hell to be able to use it. Boruto needed kawaki to use his at first.
Click to expand...
We don't know, that's the issue. Even if he didn't, it could be that Code surpassed Jigen when he activated Karma later. Too much ambiguity.
 
MinatoSparkle said:
But then he's still effectively above Jigen in reality. A self imposed limit is much different than an actual limit you can't control, which gives Jigen's position that much more solidity.

We don't know, that's the issue. Even if he didn't, it could be that Code surpassed Jigen when he activated Karma later. Too much ambiguity.
Click to expand...
1. The self imposed limit involves him submitting his powers to the control of someone who isn't an otsusuki and who he hates. The other is just self control. There is a big difference.
2. From the way amado spoke it seemed to be something he discovered when the ritual took place
 
karo_senpaii said:
1. Please drop the scan for your statement
2. Again if WK was the main reason why would code let anyone who was not an otsusuki to limit his power let alone someone he hates like amado? It makes no sense. If WK makes him surpass jigen then simply don't activate WK. Problems solved.

3. Yeah this is flat out wrong. When talking about cyborgs who surpass jigen amado statement prior was talking about combat ability. It definitely amped all of them physically. Tak hashirama cells for example. They amp you physically immediately you awaken to be able to use wood release. When Obito went on rage his physical strength went up exponentially. It's the same thing.
Please never confuse ada not being skilled and not liking violence to being weak..she surpasses jigen, her Shinjutsu jigen is completely immune to it . The only way to surpass jigen is by combat. Daemon strength being Shinjutsu is just headcanon so I'd just ignore it.
Click to expand...
1. Minatosparkle post.

2. It was because of Jigen not taking chances. It doesn't matter what Code felt. If Isshiki saw him as a potential threat, he would be sealed.

3. Well even if we accept it did amp their strength, there's no way to assume it amped Code's base strength greater than Jigen's. This is just facts. Point is White Karma was what made the difference - the reaction.
 
Kayzz said:
1. Minatosparkle post.

2. It was because of Jigen not taking chances. It doesn't matter what Code felt. If Isshiki saw him as a potential threat, he would be sealed.

3. Well even if we accept it did amp their strength, there's no way to assume it amped Code's base strength greater than Jigen's. This is just facts. Point is White Karma was what made the difference - the reaction.
Click to expand...
1. Already answered it.

2. This is wrong. It was made very clear that jigen knew code was a devotee of his and as such could care less if he was stronger and did not dispose him..it was code who on his own decide to put limiters on himself

3. I just explained. Karma causing reaction. To change biology ≠ karma needing to be activated to show that change. By default a biological change happens at all layers. Base or wk is irrelevant
 
Kayzz said:
Was mad that Himawari performed better than V1 Kawaki. Now we know it's Amado's doing.
Click to expand...
Actually… It may imply Kawaki = Code. According to Boruto, Amado limited Kawaki’s strength only to be enough to fight Code level Threats.

So V2 Kawaki “may” actually rival Code.

Unless I misunderstood.
 
karo_senpaii said:
1. The self imposed limit involves him submitting his powers to the control of someone who isn't an otsusuki and who he hates. The other is just self control. There is a big difference.
2. From the way amado spoke it seemed to be something he discovered when the ritual took place
Click to expand...
The hate on Amado started after his defection though.
 
karo_senpaii said:
1. Already answered it.

2. This is wrong. It was made very clear that jigen knew code was a devotee of his and as such could care less if he was stronger and did not dispose him..it was code who on his own decide to put limiters on himself

3. I just explained. Karma causing reaction. To change biology ≠ karma needing to be activated to show that change. By default a biological change happens at all layers. Base or wk is irrelevant
Click to expand...
1. okay

2. No. That's an assumption. It's likely because of the limiters that Jigen saw how devoted Code was, and not before.

3. Yes a biological change occurs even in Base, but it would be an assumption to state the activation of WK is unnecessary to empowering the base. That would be too different from what has already been established
 
And karma is Isshiki's raw power. The karma serves to augment the vessel closer to the parent Otsutsuki's power. If the vessel is already stronger than the Otsutsuki, then karma's raw power is irrelevant to the vessel.

For Unlimited Base Code to consider the WK irrelevant is to consider Isshiki's raw power irrelevant. That can't be possible because Isshiki's raw power is still greater than Code's.
 
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