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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread
MinatoSparkle
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Edo Hiruzen is the one who mid diffs.
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I seem to remember a certain Sharingan genjutsu that allows you to take yourself out of unfavorable situations for 5 minutesIf u gonna give 'im that, then Minato's got an altar all set up and he insta seals Itachi.
Izanagi + Izanami + Tsukuyomi + Crowtoamatsukami + Susano’o + sologod solos
Tdjwo
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Why?
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If Minato has a wall, GG
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KCM Minato ~ KCM2 Nard > Bijuu mode Bee ~ base MomoKCM Minato beats Momoshiki
Minato smokin Momo’s pack
MinatoSparkle
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I seem to recall a certain condition that the jutsu needs to be activated firstI seem to remember a certain Sharingan genjutsu that allows you to take yourself out of unfavorable situations for 5 minutes
Izanagi + Izanami + Tsukuyomi + Crowtoamatsukami + Susano’o + sologod solos
FTG+FTG lv2+FTG Reciprocal Round Robin+Rasen Flash Super Circle Dance Howl Stage 3+RDS+Eight Signed Seal+Sage Mode+saviorsolos
Edo Hiruzen>Edo Tobirama>Edo Madara~eKCM2 Naruto~BM Bee>Any other Bee (speed)
For AP Hiruzen has Enma which could push back the full Nine Tails
U sleepin' on SM Minato
That's so funny cause I wrote an answer once about how Borushiki V1 slams KCM Minato lolKCM Minato beats Momoshiki
KCM Minato>1 armed KCM Minato~BSM Naruto ggKCM Minato ~ KCM2 Nard > Bijuu mode Bee ~ base Momo
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The form we never see him use once while alive
I think that's more debatable, SM Minato vs half Susanoo Itachi, still think Itachi wins with hax.
KCM Minato more built different than I thought.
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,180
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What is this? Edo Hiruzen got blitzed by Juubito's tso. Edo Tobirama and Edo Minato could easily tag Juubito with their ftg more than once.
He could only push back Kurama but didnt actually do any damage to him. Even Kushina has better feats than Hiruzen.
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MinatoSparkle
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That form of Minato could quite literally blitz Itachi.The form we never see him use once while alive
I think that's more debatable, SM Minato vs half Susanoo Itachi, still think Itachi wins with hax.
He could swing his arm halfway to Juubidara before being countered, so he can blitz anyone less than half as fast as Juubidara. He's so cracked Kishi couldn't use that form of him until Six Paths characters were introduced.yessir
He didn't get blitzed. He moved, and his shoulder only barely got tagged.
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/f7cd1f7a355a3c419a6c94ebcc582481/NARUTO%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%A8%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%AA%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6-%C3%92%C3%A9%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%AE%C3%92%C3%A2+%C3%BE%C3%AB%C3%AA-67---p030-%5BaKraa%5D.png
Compare that to Tobirama, who just barely placed a mark on Juubito as he rushed at him.
He didn't place paper bombs on Juubito, contrary to popular belief. They most likely fell out of his body like blood splatter, since the ones in his body and on Juubito were the same.
iirc Minato didn't actually ever "tag" Juubito, although he assisted in doing so. And the examples of Tobirama doing so are all kinda eh. He did place a mark on him when he passed through him but that's just barely reacting. When he teleported behind him and threw his TSO back at him, Juubito actually shielded that so ya.
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/03fd84a43a1688f1b43fcd32cf6d2bd5/NARUTO%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%A8%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%AA%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6-%C3%92%C3%A9%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%AE%C3%92%C3%A2+%C3%BE%C3%AB%C3%AA-67---p066-%5BaKraa%5D.png
The best he did was tap Juubito's shoulder, but that's just cause Juubito was caught offguard by him using FTG for the first time on him.
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/03fd84a43a1688f1b43fcd32cf6d2bd5/NARUTO%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%A8%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%AA%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6-%C3%92%C3%A9%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%AE%C3%92%C3%A2+%C3%BE%C3%AB%C3%AA-67---p060-%5BaKraa%5D.png
Him tapping Juubito's back then switching places with Minato is due to Juubito being confused about what was happening in front of him, as Tobirama noted.
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/03fd84a43a1688f1b43fcd32cf6d2bd5/NARUTO%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%A8%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%AA%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6-%C3%92%C3%A9%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%AE%C3%92%C3%A2+%C3%BE%C3%AB%C3%AA-67---p072-%5BaKraa%5D.png
And him "blitzing" Juubito is just a no. That was actually Naruto who did the actual attack, Tobirama just assisted him, and Juubito did react, as he was planning on phasing through it and only got tagged due to him not actually possessing that ability anymore.
Yeah, Enma isn't ON Nine Tails level, but the fact that he could even affect Kurama is very impressive and would certainly allow him to damage Bee.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
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You guys just had to argue with him about Minato?
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,744
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Most of that last comment wasn't even about MinatoYou guys just had to argue with him about Minato?
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YesYou guys just had to argue with him about Minato?
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Enma pushing Kurama is a LS feat, anyway. It has no AP implications, as he did no damage whatsoever.
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Goodness ******* gracious
MinatoSparkle
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I know they're not the same, but it's not LS is an entirely separate thing from AP. For a person, their LS and striking strength both have to do with the strength of their muscles, so while one might be superior, they shouldn't be entire leagues apart realistically. I've brought this example up before somewhere, but being durable enough can make you not move at all by an attack even if you're not that heavy.
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/70d293679bf36631962f985255c96dd9/NARUTO%E2%80%94%E3%83%8A%E3%83%AB%E3%83%88%E2%80%94-%E3%82%AB%E3%83%A9%E3%83%BC%E7%89%88-51---p047-%5BaKraa%5D.png
That depends tbh. There's ways to argue either one winning. To give Hashirama a W, you can say Hashirama~Madara>SEMS Sasuke~BSM Naruto~KCM Minato
But I disagree with the statement referring to SEMS Sasuke even if that's the one depicted. They're talking about his potential, so why would the boost Jugo provides be a factor? So I believe it just means Base EMS Sasuke and thus MKCM2 Naruto. Also the scaling falls flat because this Minato was arm nerfed.
For Minato's case, I'd say KCM Minato>BSM Naruto>>MKCM2 Naruto<Hashirama. I believe Minato's scaling to be more solid and also more decisive.
But even if you highball Hashirama and say Hashirama~Madara>SEMS Sasuke~BSM Naruto<KCM Minato, that still only makes him relative to Minato at best. And that's just physical speed. Minato would be essentially far faster in combat via FTG, as seen with how FTG users could consistently blitz characters they were physically relative to.
Of course it'd be harder against Hashirama due to SM, but at the very least he would have a good edge in speed, which is imo the most important aspect of most battles. Obviously Hashirama's stronger with the Shinsuu Senju, but if Minato manages to place a mark on him, he can use Guiding Thunder to make Hashirama's own arms smack him from behind. And FTG in general counters Wood Style. If Hashirama tries to restrain Minato and absorb his Bijuu chakra he can just teleport. If he tries to shield himself with a Wood Barrier, Minato can teleport that away, etc. The jutsu that'd probably provide the most trouble to Minato is likely Flower World Tree, but Minato could teleport the forest somewhere else, or blast a Bijuudama Barrage to disperse the pollen and destroy the trees. Deity Gates can just be teleported out of.
The most common response is that yes, Minato can play keep away for a while and survive, but Hashirama will just withstand/heal anything Minato throws at him and outlast. But Hashirama's durability feats are kinda nonexistent (at best you can scale his durability to Madara, but Madara's not so durable he'll tank kunai slashes from KCM Minato either). There's no evidence suggesting he can survive Minato teleporting to him and slicing his head off. I could see Hashirama dodging that for a while, but Hashirama's actually likely to run out of SM faster than Minato runs out of KCM. They both entered those respective forms in ch 631, but Hashirama ran out of SM in 646 while Minato lasted until 648 and he only lost the form due to giving his chakra away to Naruto.
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/4c4e64dd49ab6552c54345f1b2a0e381/NARUTO%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%A8%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%AA%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6-%C3%92%C3%A9%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%AE%C3%92%C3%A2+%C3%BE%C3%AB%C3%AA-67---p154-%5BaKraa%5D.pnghttps://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/f89bc099728c1f7fd7f3012ff8158cd2/NARUTO%E2%80%94%E3%83%8A%E3%83%AB%E3%83%88%E2%80%94-%E3%82%AB%E3%83%A9%E3%83%BC%E7%89%88-68---p005-%5BaKraa%5D.png
One of the most effective wincons I could see is Minato placing a mark on Hashirama then using a few shadow clones, having some of them go to Hashirama and occupy him while one of the shadow clones stands in front of Minato. Then Minato goes to slash his clone's neck, and right before his blade pierces his clone, it switches places with Hashirama, then he loses his head as he was too disoriented to react.
So at worst, I see Minato taking it like 6-7/10 times. He's faster, smarter, more haxed, surprisingly has a longer timer on his amped form, and has enough firepower to somewhat match Hashirama.
MinatoSparkle
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Don't give me flashbacks to Fanverse 
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,744
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Mhm, should be above Minato.
How is Wood Dragon gonna do anything? Bijuudama gg
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/162c797cff6febbb926e364403053f82/v65-(53).png
Doubly so for Deep Forest Emergence.
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/793624452ad5d55349c8435d408d97fd/NARUTO%E2%80%94%E3%83%8A%E3%83%AB%E3%83%88%E2%80%94-%E3%82%AB%E3%83%A9%E3%83%BC%E7%89%88-59---p114-%5BaKraa%5D.png
If a buncha amped Base Naruto clones can take it down, a Bijuudama Barrage would be overkill, even if it's SM amped. It's pretty much featless anyways.
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They're not similar at all.
A master striker can use position, technique, and leverage to generate tremendous amounts of force (in the hundreds to thousands of PSI), but they can't even lift a fraction of what a dedicated power lifter can. This goes doubly so in fiction where the differences can be in the millions of times or more.
There's a reason we treat them as entirely different stats on the wiki, because they are.
The Danzo example is also kinda irrelevant because there's no reason to assume he has superior LS to Sasuke, anyway.
MinatoSparkle
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Like I said, they're different, but they're connected. Someone that can destroy a universe with a punch is obviously gonna be able to lift a car, and someone that can lift a planet can obviously punch through a wall.
He doesn't need to have superior LS, cause Sasuke didn't try to resist the punch, his Susanoo just tanked it, despite likely not having even as much weight as a human.
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Same way madara neged 50% kurama with a wood dragon.Mhm, should be above Minato.
How is Wood Dragon gonna do anything? Bijuudama gg
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/162c797cff6febbb926e364403053f82/v65-(53).png
Doubly so for Deep Forest Emergence.
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/793624452ad5d55349c8435d408d97fd/NARUTO%E2%80%94%E3%83%8A%E3%83%AB%E3%83%88%E2%80%94-%E3%82%AB%E3%83%A9%E3%83%BC%E7%89%88-59---p114-%5BaKraa%5D.png
If a buncha amped Base Naruto clones can take it down, a Bijuudama Barrage would be overkill, even if it's SM amped. It's pretty much featless anyways.
After kurama is down he uses deep forest emergence drains him or makes him fall asleep doubt he minato can use 100s of clones to counter it. Can also send wood clones to keep him distracted.
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No offense, but this is all a bunch of headcanon and, once again, not how it works at all. AP is never scaled, or downscaled, from LS scaling.
If you want to actually change the standards for this, you'll have to come up with a bbetter argument and try to convince the CGMs.
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Goku is rolling in his several graves right now
MinatoSparkle
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Right, cause Minato can't just teleport out of that or anything.
Also Naruto didn't use a Bijuudama, so that makes a big difference.
Kurama won't be down.
Why can't he? Even Kid Naruto can make thousands of clones, and 50% Kurama definitely provides more chakra than even Resolve Amped Kid Naruto.
Wood clones can also distract Minato, but Hashirama's clones are kinda fodder. They didn't even present the slightest challenge to Edo Madara.
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/97b3e92751d4c83c6b7145e38b6ebeb1/NARUTO%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%A8%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%AA%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6-%C3%92%C3%A9%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%AE%C3%92%C3%A2+%C3%BE%C3%AB%C3%AA-66---p086-%5BaKraa%5D.pnghttps://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/a749a71c253bd9f654224c7de33cef71/NARUTO%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%A8%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%AA%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6-%C3%92%C3%A9%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%AE%C3%92%C3%A2+%C3%BE%C3%AB%C3%AA-66---p164-%5BaKraa%5D.pnghttps://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/3dcb3cc01162c21cf77bee89f518255b/NARUTO%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%A8%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C3%AA%C3%94%C3%87%C3%B6-%C3%92%C3%A9%C2%BD%C3%92%C3%A2%C2%AE%C3%92%C3%A2+%C3%BE%C3%AB%C3%AA-66---p173-%5BaKraa%5D.png
I'm not talking site stats, just common sense. This ain't a CRT. Like, do you disagree that someone with celestial striking strength would have far above human level LS and vise versa?
Wdym?
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Yes, I do. There's no correlation.
It's not unreasonable to assume they probably have superhuman lifting strength, but beyond that we can't really assume much without actual feats. And I'm not even seeing the relevance of this to the original topic.
How does assuming that a character with superhuman physical characteristics has superhuman LS mean that we can scale one character's AP close to another because they can lift or push them? One has nothing to do with the other.
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Goku struggles lifting 10s to 100s of tons despite having universal power, DB characters have consistently ASS LS compared to their AP
MinatoSparkle
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Muscle strength is the correlation.
The relevance is that if Enma has the strength to temporarily overpower Kurama, he should likely be able to damage a far weaker being, Gyuki.
Anyways, it's not like this is the only scaling Enma has. He was also reputed to be the strongest summoning, making him Bijuu level scaling to the Sannin summons.
Yet he has vastly superhuman lifting strength still.
Also, he was able to casually lift 40 tons in the Buu Arc in SSJ1 where he was like Solar System level.
True, but Naruto's much better at being realistic than DB.
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Sure but the point still stands that LS doesn't have to inherently correlate to AP.
Also, Naruto is "realistic", uh huh suuuuuure.
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,744
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Not inherently == you can't claim AP ~ LS
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,744
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But it's more likely than them being 100% unrelated
Ya sure just saying DB isn't a good example for why it's not good in Naruto. There's probably examples in Naruto that could be used to support the point.
