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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

I’m confused what happen to the boruto god tiers upgrade to 5A I don’t see large planet level in the boruto god tier profiles any more
 
karo_senpaii said:
You literally have no points excepts statements over feats.
Click to expand...
I think you need to actually use your eyes and read again. The only one championing “Statements over feats” is you, fam. It’s not that hard.
karo_senpaii said:
Alright cool present me with code antifeats that suggest he is weaker than delta. Just one since coz that's what you keep repeating.
Click to expand...
  1. Entirety of Code vs Borushiki
  2. Entirety of Code vs TE Kawaki
  3. Borushiki’s Scaling chain
  4. Kawaki’s Scaling Chain
  5. Delta’s Feats against Naruto & her scaling chain.
karo_senpaii said:
And literally that injured sasuke that borushiki scales too has higher ap value than fused momo. You're still wrong again.
Click to expand...
Based on what? You keep saying Borushiki scales higher than fused Momoshiki but literally there is no evidence of that, nor does it make sense. So hoe is Sasuke scaling higher even when weakened with no training or implied amps between these fights? Link me to the thread, i’ll go over it and prepare a CRT for proper scaling.
karo_senpaii said:
They have their own feats but borushiki is higher.
Click to expand...
Borushiki is higher through scaling from Sasuke according to you, but where are you getting Sasuke scaling from? Jigen? Isshiki?
 
karo_senpaii said:
Your response to it was "there wasn't any reference to her abilities improved". This goes against the definition of new model and I already explained it to you.
Click to expand...
And I already explained that new model can easily be and probably is referring to her being reprogrammed to defend Konoha.
karo_senpaii said:
And once again code is held down and restrained..we know in the naruto world characters use chakra for everything including durability. So code not being able to move would definitely reduce his ability to guard himself.
I find it funny you just helped my point. The fact that code that had been with Delta all these years was suprised on how strong her kick was definitely suggests that she had been upgraded.
Click to expand...
You can still use chakra while bound by Shadow Possession, as seen when Shikamaru trapped the Kage.
main-qimg-51a1645b06f1246e26b24f37fc13b50c

??? I said that Code WASN'T surprised.
karo_senpaii said:
And code can be stronger than delta but can still get damaged by her If he doesn't guard himself. It just means delta is very much relative to him.
Click to expand...
You know I was actually reminded of an interesting statement. Shikamaru says that he and Delta could've taken down Code on his own, and he knows about the Karma as he saw Code with it active and fighting Kawaki.
0073-011.png
0065-031.png
0067-015.png

And considering Shikamaru's really just a supportive combatant against this level of fighters, Delta would have to be somewhat relative to Karma Code to take him down with a little support, letalone Base Code. It's really more consistent that Karma Code~>Delta>Base Code than Base Code>Delta.
karo_senpaii said:
And for your last point yes the statement would still hold true. I'm just telling you there is no evidence for neither. Either way Base Code would still at the very least downscale even if he isn't superior to her. But still it is just a matter of equal interpretation. You can take the statement as only at full power with karma active is he superior to Delta or you can take it as in general he's superior.
Click to expand...
There's no reason for him to downscale, but he can still be 5-B via being able to move his fingertips through Shikamaru's Shadow Possession.
karo_senpaii said:
Let me throw this question at you. Amado statement of code combat ability exceeding jigen would you say nl code is only above jigen while he is using karma or nl code with or without karma would still be superior to jigen? Coz it is the same kind of statement again.
Click to expand...
No feats for Base NL Code being above Jigen so I'd say Karma to be conservative.
 
Scaling 2x above Fused Momoshiki as Naruto fought him at half power, Sasuke's a bit iffy as the discussion about him likely or fulling scaling to Naruto didn't really get resolved.
 
MinatoSparkle said:
Scaling 2x above Fused Momoshiki as Naruto fought him at half power, Sasuke's a bit iffy as the discussion about him likely or fulling scaling to Naruto didn't really get resolved.
Click to expand...
Ok, so we scale 100% SPSM Naruto 2x above Fused Momoshiki. And As you said, Sasuke scaling is iffy, for arguments sake let’s just there’s parody there.

“Borushiki’s” best scaling comes from Injured/Nerfed Sasuke, right?
 
TFO said:
Ok, so we scale 100% SPSM Naruto 2x above Fused Momoshiki. And As you said, Sasuke scaling is iffy, for arguments sake let’s just there’s parody there.

“Borushiki’s” best scaling comes from Injured/Nerfed Sasuke, right?
Click to expand...
No, he scales above Karma Code who's above Delta who's low end relative to 100% SPSM Naruto.
 
MinatoSparkle said:
I think I'll wait for you and when staff get there I'll strike with the in between :devilish:
Click to expand...
Well how about this… how about I list my reasoning here, and if its able to be refuted, I won’t even waste anymore time on it?

So… It’s really simple. Code has a lot of statements but his feats contradict those statements. Before getting his limiters removed, he had 3 fights (TE Boruto, Borushiki, Kawaki… Bronco son’ed him 🤷‍♂️). On the Profiles, Borushiki scales from injured/nerfed Sasuke and WK Code. Kawaki scales from Borushiki and Code scales over Delta, but the problem is, Code has no feats to support scaling over Delta and the ONLY things that scale him over Delta is statements. The first comment regarding him and Boro is HIGHLY contextual. Even conservative, Boro isn’t scaling anywhere near Delta in regards to stats and that showing against Team 7 + Kawaki really makes that initial statement unreliable

The second statement from Code when he talks to Eida amounts to a “maybe”, which is less confidence than before (And Confidence Scaling “by itself” is not sufficient evidence, as proven with Kashin Koji. The third statement from Amado to Kawaki is unreliable because Amado has a vested interest in Manipulating Kawaki into wanting the Karma and prior to this, Amado stated he is unsure how much power Naruto lost, meaning even if we give him that, his comments are still unreliable because he’s making a assertion based on an unknown.

Boruto between the Momoshiki Arc and Isshiki Fight got stronger, yes, but his Base Strength is insignificant compared to Momoshiki’s Power (Proven by how Base Kawaki, whom is relative to Base Boruto, is fodder) which Isshiki sets at 80% at the time of his fight. We know how Karma works. It compresses the users Data at the time into the seal and places upon its victim, slowly extracting over time. So to suggest Borushiki with 80% of Fused Momoshiki’s Power and Data available to him was “magically” stronger than the entirety of the version of his Data compressed into the Karma and implanted on Boruto without any training at all is illogical and nothing in the series (No feats, no statements, no implications) support this notion.

So when Borushiki fights Sasuke, Sasuke is Injured from Isshiki’s attacks… No Rinnegan buff… and is so low on Chakra that after using Amateratsu, he stumbles and has to deactivate the Sharingan. This Sasuke is an Unquantifiable Variable. We have no Idea how strong he was at the time. THIS VERSION OF SASUKE cannot be used to Scale Borushiki, and thus, Borushiki in this Instance can only be scales through the Percentage of power Isshiki notes was available to him (80%). Thus, Borushiki here only has 80% of Fused Momoshiki power. Again, he has no statements or feats at this point to scale him higher (It’s actually more impressive for Sasuke).

So at the time of the Code fight, come to find out Borushiki progressed from 80% to 82%. At 82% of Fused Momoshiki’s power, Code is being stomped and mocked by Momoshiki and is unable to do anything in regards to Borushiki, and is told by Eida that he is no match. If Code was stronger than Delta, he would destroy Borushiki, who is only 82% of Fused Momoshiki. Thus, the statements were false or at best just contradicted. Again, Code prior to this had no supporting feats Nd Borushiki has no feats or statements or implications that he is stronger for no reason. It’s arbitrary to assume Borushiki is stronger when he hasn’t did anything to justify that. This is the same case as Boro. Code’s statements likewise is unreliable as when he got his limiters off, he was OVER confident that he could take Daemon, until he was put in his place.

Kawaki doesn’t scale anywhere but to Borushiki, whom he is even with. As noted, Otsutsuki can draw out the true power of their Karma, unlike their vessels, which is why TE Boruto is weaker than Borushiki. If Isshiki could control 80% Kawaki, he’d likely be stronger than what TE Kawaki could produce at that time, but as of this fight, Code again is shown to be no match for 82% of Fused Momoshiki’s Power.

So logically, scaling should actually look like:

Limitless WK Code > TE Jigen > Karma Jigen ~ 100% Naruto/Sasuke > Delta (Who could match Serious Naruto in Taijutsu) > Fused Momoshiki ~ 50% Naruto > 82% Borushiki ~ 80% TE Kawaki > WK Code ~ TE Boruto

I have no Idea where regular Karma Kawaki / Boruto (Post Resurrection) would scale on this chain. Likewise, I have no idea where 80% Borushiki and Injured/Nerfed Sasuke would be, compared to WK Code. My inclination is to have both just below 82% Momoshiki and still be > WK Code, but that would be an assumption on my part and i’d like more input in that regard.

So yes, while Code has statements, his feats contradict those statements, and you’d have to make baseless Claims about 80-82% Borushiki being significantly stronger than the Data of his Karma w/o Training or any statements/implication whatsoever to justify Code’s statements. Nerfed, weakend and low on chakra Sasuke being a threat to this Borushiki also contradict Code’s statements if this Borushiki is supposedly relative to 100% Naruto/Sasuke and stronger than Fused Momoshiki
 
If you're proposing that WK code should be considered~to delta, Doesn't that make TE Boruto and Code arc Borushiki scaling around 312zet ish

Yeah ik, Boruto should scale to a fatigued Sasuke. But considering the fact that was also an heavily fatigued boruto with most bones in his body broken also with a lower percentage of Otsutsufication. Well it's not really of the chart as Shonen characters tend to get stronger as the story progresses.
 
MinatoSparkle said:
And I already explained that new model can easily be and probably is referring to her being reprogrammed to defend Konoha.

You can still use chakra while bound by Shadow Possession, as seen when Shikamaru trapped the Kage.
main-qimg-51a1645b06f1246e26b24f37fc13b50c

??? I said that Code WASN'T surprised.

You know I was actually reminded of an interesting statement. Shikamaru says that he and Delta could've taken down Code on his own, and he knows about the Karma as he saw Code with it active and fighting Kawaki.
0073-011.png
0065-031.png
0067-015.png

And considering Shikamaru's really just a supportive combatant against this level of fighters, Delta would have to be somewhat relative to Karma Code to take him down with a little support, letalone Base Code. It's really more consistent that Karma Code~>Delta>Base Code than Base Code>Delta.

There's no reason for him to downscale, but he can still be 5-B via being able to move his fingertips through Shikamaru's Shadow Possession.

No feats for Base NL Code being above Jigen so I'd say Karma to be conservative.
Click to expand...
I think this is as far as I can argue. I would say shikamaru and delta being able to beat code is not really a good argument considering shikamaru in his own right with shadow binding scales to them and also has as good reaction speed.
 
TFO said:
I think you need to actually use your eyes and read again. The only one championing “Statements over feats” is you, fam. It’s not that hard.

  1. Entirety of Code vs Borushiki
  2. Entirety of Code vs TE Kawaki
  3. Borushiki’s Scaling chain
  4. Kawaki’s Scaling Chain
  5. Delta’s Feats against Naruto & her scaling chain.

Based on what? You keep saying Borushiki scales higher than fused Momoshiki but literally there is no evidence of that, nor does it make sense. So hoe is Sasuke scaling higher even when weakened with no training or implied amps between these fights? Link me to the thread, i’ll go over it and prepare a CRT for proper scaling.

Borushiki is higher through scaling from Sasuke according to you, but where are you getting Sasuke scaling from? Jigen? Isshiki?
Click to expand...
Like I said before. I am literally regurgitating the value on the wiki. I was arguing with someone and told the person that on this wiki borushiki scales higher than fused momo. You jumped in and said no. But I'm telling you check the profile it is there. What kind of argument is this?
 
TFO said:
I think you need to actually use your eyes and read again. The only one championing “Statements over feats” is you, fam. It’s not that hard.

  1. Entirety of Code vs Borushiki
  2. Entirety of Code vs TE Kawaki
  3. Borushiki’s Scaling chain
  4. Kawaki’s Scaling Chain
  5. Delta’s Feats against Naruto & her scaling chain.
Click to expand...
All of these are not anti feats as both borushiki and kawaki scales higher than delta.

Once again on this wiki fused momo=156zt
Borushiki and kawaki =312zt
 
karo_senpaii said:
Fused momo scales to base momo+ kinshiki =156zt
Naruto scales to 312zt same as sasuke
Borushiki scales to sasuke 312zt.

Is it hard to understand?
Click to expand...
Yeah, read the thread, you’re quite late. Going through you about this is irrelevant tbh anyways, regardless if you disagree or not, just like the last time. Unnecessary, plus I have already addresses your points anyways, if you actually read, which you haven’t. So chill out.
 
TFO said:
Well how about this… how about I list my reasoning here, and if its able to be refuted, I won’t even waste anymore time on it?

So… It’s really simple. Code has a lot of statements but his feats contradict those statements. Before getting his limiters removed, he had 3 fights (TE Boruto, Borushiki, Kawaki… Bronco son’ed him 🤷‍♂️). On the Profiles, Borushiki scales from injured/nerfed Sasuke and WK Code. Kawaki scales from Borushiki and Code scales over Delta, but the problem is, Code has no feats to support scaling over Delta and the ONLY things that scale him over Delta is statements. The first comment regarding him and Boro is HIGHLY contextual. Even conservative, Boro isn’t scaling anywhere near Delta in regards to stats and that showing against Team 7 + Kawaki really makes that initial statement unreliable

The second statement from Code when he talks to Eida amounts to a “maybe”, which is less confidence than before (And Confidence Scaling “by itself” is not sufficient evidence, as proven with Kashin Koji. The third statement from Amado to Kawaki is unreliable because Amado has a vested interest in Manipulating Kawaki into wanting the Karma and prior to this, Amado stated he is unsure how much power Naruto lost, meaning even if we give him that, his comments are still unreliable because he’s making a assertion based on an unknown.

Boruto between the Momoshiki Arc and Isshiki Fight got stronger, yes, but his Base Strength is insignificant compared to Momoshiki’s Power (Proven by how Base Kawaki, whom is relative to Base Boruto, is fodder) which Isshiki sets at 80% at the time of his fight. We know how Karma works. It compresses the users Data at the time into the seal and places upon its victim, slowly extracting over time. So to suggest Borushiki with 80% of Fused Momoshiki’s Power and Data available to him was “magically” stronger than the entirety of the version of his Data compressed into the Karma and implanted on Boruto without any training at all is illogical and nothing in the series (No feats, no statements, no implications) support this notion.

So when Borushiki fights Sasuke, Sasuke is Injured from Isshiki’s attacks… No Rinnegan buff… and is so low on Chakra that after using Amateratsu, he stumbles and has to deactivate the Sharingan. This Sasuke is an Unquantifiable Variable. We have no Idea how strong he was at the time. THIS VERSION OF SASUKE cannot be used to Scale Borushiki, and thus, Borushiki in this Instance can only be scales through the Percentage of power Isshiki notes was available to him (80%). Thus, Borushiki here only has 80% of Fused Momoshiki power. Again, he has no statements or feats at this point to scale him higher (It’s actually more impressive for Sasuke).

So at the time of the Code fight, come to find out Borushiki progressed from 80% to 82%. At 82% of Fused Momoshiki’s power, Code is being stomped and mocked by Momoshiki and is unable to do anything in regards to Borushiki, and is told by Eida that he is no match. If Code was stronger than Delta, he would destroy Borushiki, who is only 82% of Fused Momoshiki. Thus, the statements were false or at best just contradicted. Again, Code prior to this had no supporting feats Nd Borushiki has no feats or statements or implications that he is stronger for no reason. It’s arbitrary to assume Borushiki is stronger when he hasn’t did anything to justify that. This is the same case as Boro. Code’s statements likewise is unreliable as when he got his limiters off, he was OVER confident that he could take Daemon, until he was put in his place.

Kawaki doesn’t scale anywhere but to Borushiki, whom he is even with. As noted, Otsutsuki can draw out the true power of their Karma, unlike their vessels, which is why TE Boruto is weaker than Borushiki. If Isshiki could control 80% Kawaki, he’d likely be stronger than what TE Kawaki could produce at that time, but as of this fight, Code again is shown to be no match for 82% of Fused Momoshiki’s Power.

So logically, scaling should actually look like:

Limitless WK Code > TE Jigen > Karma Jigen ~ 100% Naruto/Sasuke > Delta (Who could match Serious Naruto in Taijutsu) > Fused Momoshiki ~ 50% Naruto > 82% Borushiki ~ 80% TE Kawaki > WK Code ~ TE Boruto

I have no Idea where regular Karma Kawaki / Boruto (Post Resurrection) would scale on this chain. Likewise, I have no idea where 80% Borushiki and Injured/Nerfed Sasuke would be, compared to WK Code. My inclination is to have both just below 82% Momoshiki and still be > WK Code, but that would be an assumption on my part and i’d like more input in that regard.

So yes, while Code has statements, his feats contradict those statements, and you’d have to make baseless Claims about 80-82% Borushiki being significantly stronger than the Data of his Karma w/o Training or any statements/implication whatsoever to justify Code’s statements. Nerfed, weakend and low on chakra Sasuke being a threat to this Borushiki also contradict Code’s statements if this Borushiki is supposedly relative to 100% Naruto/Sasuke and stronger than Fused Momoshiki
Click to expand...
Agree FRA
 
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Reactions: TFO
TFO said:
Yeah, read the thread, you’re quite late. Going through you about this is irrelevant tbh anyways, regardless if you disagree or not, just like the last time. Unnecessary, plus I have already addresses your points anyways, if you actually read, which you haven’t. So chill out.
Click to expand...
Cool. I hope after all this talk I will be expecting a crt from your right?
 
TFO said:
Well that depends on @MinatoSparkle Reply, since he too is intending on potential CRT that is antithetical to mine. I find their word to be more reliable than… “some others” here, so pending their reply or a few choice others, I’ll drop it and let him move forward with his.
Click to expand...
Tbh he actually just thinks karma code>delta>Base code so it won't really affect any scalling
 
TFO said:
Well how about this… how about I list my reasoning here, and if its able to be refuted, I won’t even waste anymore time on it?

So… It’s really simple. Code has a lot of statements but his feats contradict those statements. Before getting his limiters removed, he had 3 fights (TE Boruto, Borushiki, Kawaki… Bronco son’ed him 🤷‍♂️).
Click to expand...
I mean those first 3 really only have scalings based on Code, so it's not truly an antifeat, and I'll talk about later why I don't think Sasuke fight Borushiki<~Code fight Borushiki works.

As for Delta, that actually kinda helps. If Code in base can withstand an attack from Delta, it'd make sense that with a dramatic boost from the Karma, he'd be relative or superior.
TFO said:
On the Profiles, Borushiki scales from injured/nerfed Sasuke and WK Code. Kawaki scales from Borushiki and Code scales over Delta, but the problem is, Code has no feats to support scaling over Delta and the ONLY things that scale him over Delta is statements. The first comment regarding him and Boro is HIGHLY contextual. Even conservative, Boro isn’t scaling anywhere near Delta in regards to stats and that showing against Team 7 + Kawaki really makes that initial statement unreliable
Click to expand...
Well there's the tanking like I mentioned, but also the Code~Boro>Delta thing doesn't really contradict anything. Boro has a better chance against Naruto than Delta cause his poison isn't really reliant on stats. As long as Naruto is near him for more than a few seconds without instantly trying to blow Boro into dust, he'll be down as he won't have someone to bring him away from the poison like Team 7 did. In that sense, Boro's abilities do surpass Delta's.
TFO said:
The second statement from Code when he talks to Eida amounts to a “maybe”, which is less confidence than before (And Confidence Scaling “by itself” is not sufficient evidence, as proven with Kashin Koji. The third statement from Amado to Kawaki is unreliable because Amado has a vested interest in Manipulating Kawaki into wanting the Karma and prior to this, Amado stated he is unsure how much power Naruto lost, meaning even if we give him that, his comments are still unreliable because he’s making a assertion based on an unknown.
Click to expand...
I don't think the problem with the Koji vs Delta thing is confidence scaling in and of itself, but rather that we don't know what exactly Koji was planning to do, as he has a very varied arsenal and some hax that doesn't rely exclusively on AP (though personally I do think SM Koji scales to Delta), while Code relies just on attacks and teleportation, which isn't enough without the ability to damage opponents.

But Kawaki said from the start that Code was stronger than Delta and implicitly agreed that Naruto vs Code wouldn't go like Naruto vs Delta did.
Image
0059-009.png
0059-010.png

TFO said:
Boruto between the Momoshiki Arc and Isshiki Fight got stronger, yes, but his Base Strength is insignificant compared to Momoshiki’s Power (Proven by how Base Kawaki, whom is relative to Base Boruto, is fodder) which Isshiki sets at 80% at the time of his fight. We know how Karma works. It compresses the users Data at the time into the seal and places upon its victim, slowly extracting over time. So to suggest Borushiki with 80% of Fused Momoshiki’s Power and Data available to him was “magically” stronger than the entirety of the version of his Data compressed into the Karma and implanted on Boruto without any training at all is illogical and nothing in the series (No feats, no statements, no implications) support this notion.
Click to expand...
Obviously Base Boruto is nothing compared to Momoshiki, but that's not really the point. We have no idea how Karma mixes with the user in terms of power. It could be as simple as the percent of the Otsutsuki's data = percent of their power, but it could mix and amplify with the user's existing chakra to create something greater than the sum of its parts. We also know that Kawaki had about 80% of Isshiki's data but he's nowhere near as strong as Isshiki, so it clearly doesn't work linearly like that.
0054-012.png

And also it just makes no sense narratively, since Boruto and Kawaki are meant to be rivals, yet Isshiki is gargantuanly stronger than Fused Momoshiki. Unless you think P2 Boruto's strength is gonna be almost entirely his base and Karma's gonna be a fart level amp from now on.
TFO said:
So when Borushiki fights Sasuke, Sasuke is Injured from Isshiki’s attacks… No Rinnegan buff… and is so low on Chakra that after using Amateratsu, he stumbles and has to deactivate the Sharingan. This Sasuke is an Unquantifiable Variable. We have no Idea how strong he was at the time. THIS VERSION OF SASUKE cannot be used to Scale Borushiki, and thus, Borushiki in this Instance can only be scales through the Percentage of power Isshiki notes was available to him (80%). Thus, Borushiki here only has 80% of Fused Momoshiki power. Again, he has no statements or feats at this point to scale him higher (It’s actually more impressive for Sasuke).
Click to expand...
Disregarding what I said prior, there's also the fact that Code fight Borushiki is more stable. It's not like he's just coming out because Boruto's low on chakra, Momoshiki sorta came out naturally (from Boruto using the Karma's power more than before to be more precise).

Also Fatigued/Injured Nerfed Base/3T Sasuke almost being as strong as Fused Momoshiki doesn't really make sense when a fresher Rinnegan Sasuke with the 3T Sharingan is relative to Kinshiki.
TFO said:
So at the time of the Code fight, come to find out Borushiki progressed from 80% to 82%. At 82% of Fused Momoshiki’s power, Code is being stomped and mocked by Momoshiki and is unable to do anything in regards to Borushiki, and is told by Eida that he is no match. If Code was stronger than Delta, he would destroy Borushiki, who is only 82% of Fused Momoshiki. Thus, the statements were false or at best just contradicted. Again, Code prior to this had no supporting feats Nd Borushiki has no feats or statements or implications that he is stronger for no reason. It’s arbitrary to assume Borushiki is stronger when he hasn’t did anything to justify that. This is the same case as Boro. Code’s statements likewise is unreliable as when he got his limiters off, he was OVER confident that he could take Daemon, until he was put in his place.
Click to expand...
Another possibility is that Borushiki has most of FP Fused Momoshiki's power, AKA his power with ninjutsu like his energy balls, dragons, and golem, not necessarily his physicals, as Borushiki himself doesn't seem to be able to use Momoshiki's ninjutsu. So Delta>Fused Momoshiki physically isn't necessarily contradictory to Fused Momoshiki>Delta overall.

Big difference with that is that Code already knew about Naruto and Sasuke, whereas he's barely known Daemon and knows nothing about his stats.
TFO said:
Kawaki doesn’t scale anywhere but to Borushiki, whom he is even with. As noted, Otsutsuki can draw out the true power of their Karma, unlike their vessels, which is why TE Boruto is weaker than Borushiki. If Isshiki could control 80% Kawaki, he’d likely be stronger than what TE Kawaki could produce at that time, but as of this fight, Code again is shown to be no match for 82% of Fused Momoshiki’s Power.
Click to expand...
I mean Kawaki has the horns like FP Jigen and Borushiki and unlike TE Boruto, so I don't think he's lacking any power he'd have if Isshiki controlled him. Like Amado said, his Karma is different from before as it's purely a weapon and not a receptacle for an Otsutsuki to reincarnate in.
TFO said:
So logically, scaling should actually look like:

Limitless WK Code > TE Jigen > Karma Jigen ~ 100% Naruto/Sasuke > Delta (Who could match Serious Naruto in Taijutsu) > Fused Momoshiki ~ 50% Naruto > 82% Borushiki ~ 80% TE Kawaki > WK Code ~ TE Boruto

I have no Idea where regular Karma Kawaki / Boruto (Post Resurrection) would scale on this chain. Likewise, I have no idea where 80% Borushiki and Injured/Nerfed Sasuke would be, compared to WK Code. My inclination is to have both just below 82% Momoshiki and still be > WK Code, but that would be an assumption on my part and i’d like more input in that regard.

So yes, while Code has statements, his feats contradict those statements, and you’d have to make baseless Claims about 80-82% Borushiki being significantly stronger than the Data of his Karma w/o Training or any statements/implication whatsoever to justify Code’s statements. Nerfed, weakend and low on chakra Sasuke being a threat to this Borushiki also contradict Code’s statements if this Borushiki is supposedly relative to 100% Naruto/Sasuke and stronger than Fused Momoshiki
Click to expand...
His feats only contradict his statements if you interpret his feats uncharitably. I prefer to find a consistency to both that doesn't simply omit pieces of evidence.
 
MinatoSparkle said:
I mean those first 3 really only have scalings based on Code, so it's not truly an antifeat, and I'll talk about later why I don't think Sasuke fight Borushiki<~Code fight Borushiki works.

As for Delta, that actually kinda helps. If Code in base can withstand an attack from Delta, it'd make sense that with a dramatic boost from the Karma, he'd be relative or superior.

Well there's the tanking like I mentioned, but also the Code~Boro>Delta thing doesn't really contradict anything. Boro has a better chance against Naruto than Delta cause his poison isn't really reliant on stats. As long as Naruto is near him for more than a few seconds without instantly trying to blow Boro into dust, he'll be down as he won't have someone to bring him away from the poison like Team 7 did. In that sense, Boro's abilities do surpass Delta's.

I don't think the problem with the Koji vs Delta thing is confidence scaling in and of itself, but rather that we don't know what exactly Koji was planning to do, as he has a very varied arsenal and some hax that doesn't rely exclusively on AP (though personally I do think SM Koji scales to Delta), while Code relies just on attacks and teleportation, which isn't enough without the ability to damage opponents.

But Kawaki said from the start that Code was stronger than Delta and implicitly agreed that Naruto vs Code wouldn't go like Naruto vs Delta did.
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Obviously Base Boruto is nothing compared to Momoshiki, but that's not really the point. We have no idea how Karma mixes with the user in terms of power. It could be as simple as the percent of the Otsutsuki's data = percent of their power, but it could mix and amplify with the user's existing chakra to create something greater than the sum of its parts. We also know that Kawaki had about 80% of Isshiki's data but he's nowhere near as strong as Isshiki, so it clearly doesn't work linearly like that.
0054-012.png

And also it just makes no sense narratively, since Boruto and Kawaki are meant to be rivals, yet Isshiki is gargantuanly stronger than Fused Momoshiki. Unless you think P2 Boruto's strength is gonna be almost entirely his base and Karma's gonna be a fart level amp from now on.

Disregarding what I said prior, there's also the fact that Code fight Borushiki is more stable. It's not like he's just coming out because Boruto's low on chakra, Momoshiki sorta came out naturally (from Boruto using the Karma's power more than before to be more precise).

Also Fatigued/Injured Nerfed Base/3T Sasuke almost being as strong as Fused Momoshiki doesn't really make sense when a fresher Rinnegan Sasuke with the 3T Sharingan is relative to Kinshiki.

Another possibility is that Borushiki has most of FP Fused Momoshiki's power, AKA his power with ninjutsu like his energy balls, dragons, and golem, not necessarily his physicals, as Borushiki himself doesn't seem to be able to use Momoshiki's ninjutsu. So Delta>Fused Momoshiki physically isn't necessarily contradictory to Fused Momoshiki>Delta overall.

Big difference with that is that Code already knew about Naruto and Sasuke, whereas he's barely known Daemon and knows nothing about his stats.

I mean Kawaki has the horns like FP Jigen and Borushiki and unlike TE Boruto, so I don't think he's lacking any power he'd have if Isshiki controlled him. Like Amado said, his Karma is different from before as it's purely a weapon and not a receptacle for an Otsutsuki to reincarnate in.

His feats only contradict his statements if you interpret his feats uncharitably. I prefer to find a consistency to both that doesn't simply omit pieces of evidence.
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Tbf, we don’t know if Boruto ever will grow his horn when using TE when not being controlled by Momoshiki. IG its still too soon for me to make any comments on that vs Growing the horn (But I’m sure we’ll see if/when they have TE Boruto fight TE Kawaki).

And I’m not a fan of assuming Karma works like Biju Chakra mixing creating SPC or something like Baryon Mode to a degree. Iirc, Karma just overlays the user with the Otsutsuki’s Experience and it’s percentage correlates to the power of that Otsutsuki available, according to Isshiki, and that the Otsutsuki can control it better than the vessel according to the Code fight. I do believe any buff Borushiki gets from having Fused Momoshiki’s Experiwnce and power overlayed onto Boruto is insignificant, and after all, “Boruto’s” existence “was” being overwritten, so I do think my interpretation is the most sound in this regard.

I forgot about Kawaki’s statement of Code being stronger than Delta. That statement from him carries more implicit weight than from others, specifically Amado, whom I cannot trust wasn’t simply manipulating Kawaki.

After Re-Evaluating the Kawaki vs Borushiki fight, They never actually tagged one another with Taijutsu, and when Kawaki did land a hit, he overpowered Borushiki, but it seems that Kawaki’s TE Physicals scale from Borushiki’s Ninjutsu (As per the Hand vs Rasengan Clash) and it was Borushiki “Ninjutsu” that Code couldn’t handle.

Idk… This shit isn’t clicking for me.

Borushiki’s Ninjutsu ~ TE Kawaki Physicals > WK Code > 100% Naruto (Physicals) ~ Delta > Fused Momoshiki ~ 50% Naruto… doesn’t make any sense to me given Boruto’s 80-82% Karma progression (Which I address above) and isn’t consistent in my eyes.

But if that makes sense to you (And there seems to he more support for that scaling), i’ll concede the issue.
 
TFO said:
Tbf, we don’t know if Boruto ever will grow his horn when using TE when not being controlled by Momoshiki. IG its still too soon for me to make any comments on that vs Growing the horn (But I’m sure we’ll see if/when they have TE Boruto fight TE Kawaki).

And I’m not a fan of assuming Karma works like Biju Chakra mixing creating SPC or something like Baryon Mode to a degree. Iirc, Karma just overlays the user with the Otsutsuki’s Experience and it’s percentage correlates to the power of that Otsutsuki available, according to Isshiki, and that the Otsutsuki can control it better than the vessel according to the Code fight. I do believe any buff Borushiki gets from having Fused Momoshiki’s Experiwnce and power overlayed onto Boruto is insignificant, and after all, “Boruto’s” existence “was” being overwritten, so I do think my interpretation is the most sound in this regard.
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I don't think that interpretation is a bad one on its own, but I don't think probabilities are enough to overwrite blatant scaling chains. And it's also not exactly contradictory cause of what I said before about Momo's ninjutsu.
TFO said:
I forgot about Kawaki’s statement of Code being stronger than Delta. That statement from him carries more implicit weight than from others, specifically Amado, whom I cannot trust wasn’t simply manipulating Kawaki.

After Re-Evaluating the Kawaki vs Borushiki fight, They never actually tagged one another with Taijutsu, and when Kawaki did land a hit, he overpowered Borushiki, but it seems that Kawaki’s TE Physicals scale from Borushiki’s Ninjutsu (As per the Hand vs Rasengan Clash) and it was Borushiki “Ninjutsu” that Code couldn’t handle.
Click to expand...
I mean kinda looks like he kicked him away here and he kicks Code.
0066-018.png
0065-022.png

TFO said:
Idk… This shit isn’t clicking for me.

Borushiki’s Ninjutsu ~ TE Kawaki Physicals > WK Code > 100% Naruto (Physicals) ~ Delta > Fused Momoshiki ~ 50% Naruto… doesn’t make any sense to me given Boruto’s 80-82% Karma progression (Which I address above) and isn’t consistent in my eyes.
Click to expand...
1. Borushiki>Momoshiki+Boruto
2. Borushiki = 82% of Momoshiki's ninjutsu AP
Idk either or both of these explain it just fine imo.
TFO said:
But if that makes sense to you (And there seems to he more support for that scaling), i’ll concede the issue.
Click to expand...
Ite
 
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