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Naruto speed and light, yet again.

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Still, input from other Calc members outside of Damage would be appreciated since this thread essentially revolves around how the criteria should be treated.

I'll ask both Ugarik and DT.

Edit. - I've asked them both to comment.
 
Rocker1189 said:
If we have to repeat we would, if it is confirmed light speed we won't.
Click to expand...
This seems to be a reason to hold off on applying an upgrade.

It is ALWAYS better to err on the side of caution, especially when our main goal on the wiki is accuracy. Saying 'meh it might be wrong but we can change it later after we get better confirmation' as I've seen numerous times throughout the thread is....antithetical to that core, sole purpose.

We want to be as correct as possible and be proven WRONG at a later point in time due to drastically different data, not be a middling level of accuracte and hope to be proven RIGHT after the changes have been applied.

The safer bet here is to hold off until further statements and feats that don't present issues with the wiki's Standards of Light exist to support this. To push for lightspeed opens a door to faulty argumentation wherein 'meh MAYBE it's lightspeed, heck why not just upgrade it we have precedent and we can always just change it' becomes acceptable, a stance which implicitly puts impetus upon people to prove a negative (lol it was upgraded in a CRT prove it ISN'T lightspeed) for a future downgrade.

It's troubling, at base.
 
Here is the thing though, I do think that all this means it is light speed since it is literally a beam of light, I say confirmed only because some people dont believe it is.

The fact is we dont know if anything such a databook would come out, thus I dont see an issue with affirming it as lightspeed based on the info we have especially when it is much more than what is used to allow light speed for a few other verses.

And I don tsee what you mean by puts impetus on people to prove a negative, I am doing the positive proving here, if people dont have arguments against it then that is on them, not me. Everything on this wiki puts an impetus on people to disprove it.

And since all of this has nothing to do with the thread itself I would leave it at that, I suppose you disagree and that is fine.
 
I am Neutral as it stands, if I disagree on the OP I would have outright said so. I'll address that first since it's the base point.

To follow up: if you paid attention, I am pointing out why the argumentation in this thread for why the proposed upgrades be pushed through is potentially harmful. It is bad debate etiquette and skirts some logical consistency that the wiki makes use of, as I state.

If the issue for the Agree side is 'well we have SOME evidence and we just don't have outright confirmation so we may as well apply the upgrades' then you're falling into a pit precisely like what my first comment describes, and you seem to be making such a case.

As it stands, it appears that the proposed change relies on circumstantially suspect information and it would be rational to dismiss it as such; the only reason I'm Neutral here is because I simply stopped keeping up with Boruto and so won't bother taking a strong stance on something I've not maken myself familiar with. I've no issue assailing faulty or inconsistent logic, however.
 
Xulrev said:
If the issue for the Agree side is 'well we have SOME evidence and we just don't have outright confirmation so we may as well apply the upgrades' then you're falling into a pit precisely like what my first comment describes, and you seem to be making such a case.
Click to expand...
Well I would just adress the argument then.

It is not that there is some evidence though I would point out again that most lighspeed feats are accepted with less.

Yeah it is based on implication, not everything is straight up said. Something being a laser already points to it being lightspeed, but of course that is not enough.

I dont want to just repeat everything I have said over time on the thread yet again though as I am sure you read it.

But we are not accepting it just because we can downgrade it later we are accepting it because of the evidence I provided, the reason I said it is possible to downgrade it later it is actually wrong is because it is.
 
Well, Xulrev and IMade made a few good points. I am more uncertain now.
 
I think that's a fair place to leave it Rocker; as I said, I'm maintaining Neutral as my position. I simply wanted to point out how some of the argumentation for why the upgrade should go through is potentially harmful.

Good discussion, thanks for engaging it.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, Xulrev and IMade made a few good points. I am more uncertain now.
Click to expand...

Tbf any everything Imade said was wrong since we actually have scans to prove him wrong but Xulrev had better points. Everything Imade said was brought up by previous users yesterday in a circle.
 
@AstralKing7; I wouldn't say everything IMade has said it wrong at all.

Pointing out the contradictions that Delta's beams have from real lasers is one of the important parts of verifying whether these beams match the necessary qualifications for being considered lightspeed without direct evidence.

With only a couple of supporting points for it, and a couple of blatant contradictions, I think there definitely isn't enough evidence to accept them as lightspeed and upgrade the verse yet.
 
@Damage

You are really boiling down everything I put together to a couple of supporting points, it is far more than that.

There are a couple of "contradictions" which show up with most fictional light regardless of verse unless it is hard fiction.
 
Those aren't contradictions. They were debunked yesterday by Most Powerful if u read them.

The photon not being confirmed is literally I lie like MP said. So he is wrong on that as well since we have the literal evidence.

He also only showed 2 points and he said that more evidence against the upgrade than for. Two points? Really?

We wouldn't have to match the standards if we had direct evidence btw. Just throwing that out there.
 
First of all, IMade and Xulrev did make some pretty legitimate constructive arguments. Does that make them right? Not quite, but there are still other things that needed to be pointed out. There are attacks that look less like real lasers that have been accepted as light speed; such as the Light Arrows from Zelda. Second, of the main highlighted points, the number of main listed characters in the laser/light beam dodging page has more points to argue for them being light speed lasers than the later; that being three to one as seen above.

The main points for them being lasers is being technology based rather than being made of magic or spirit energy, them being described as photons, them firing in strait lines unaffected by gravity, and them having similar animations to various lasers described as light speed. And the only real argument against them not being lasers is them exploding upon impact, and them damaging targets. But they don't have to be laser pointers that give 0 damage to be considered real lasers.

I'm fine if they don't get accepted as light speed, but I have to lean towards them being considered real lasers and light speed. Though, I'd like to hear from someone like Tatahakai, or at least a few more calc group members yes.
 
Tata has been very busy as of late with real life situations. We don't know when he will be able to return as of yet truthfully.


Also the photon beam in verses is considered to be a destructive gun in the first place
 
@DDM; the list up above should be three to two. MostPowerfull missed one of them out.

Delta's beams have not actually been described as photons. A different piece of technology from the novels has.

There's also the potential issue of Kawaki being able to keep up and intercept one of these supposed laser beams when he defended Naruto at the end of chapter 32.
 
There were two minor details listed; not that it was one of the 5 primary points on This page. And Most Powerful actually corrected the last detail.
 
The technology from Kara is way more advanced Damage. That's that. Konoha science lead already considers Kara technology advanced


Also kawkai scaling to Delta is insane 😂 Why? He literally got blitzed by base Naruto. This feels like a sorry excuse just to try to downplay the laser.

Why people keep using these PIS moments from that arc idk why when Boruto tanked a punch from delta.

@Damge in the first place you sound like you are accepting Kawaki scaling to Delta? If that's true then we should upgrade his speed. If you don't accept that fact then why even bring this PIS moment up?
 
There's also the potential issue of Kawaki being able to keep up and intercept one of these supposed laser beams when he defended Naruto at the end of chapter 32.

This would be considered an outlier in most verses when a low - mid tier exceeds their percieved level of power further more I responded to this above.
 
> The technology from Kara is way more advanced Damage. That's that. Konoha science lead already considers Kara technology advanced

By itself this statement doesn't mean anything. Technology being more advanced doesn't mean Delta's attacks have to be lightspeed just because a different piece of technology in the verse is lightspeed.
 
Damage3245 said:
> The technology from Kara is way more advanced Damage. That's that. Konoha science lead already considers Kara technology advanced
By itself this statement doesn't mean anything. Technology being more advanced doesn't mean Delta's attacks have to be lightspeed just because a different piece of technology in the verse is lightspeed.
Click to expand...
They are the same type of tech, Delta's uses real matter.

One is less advanced than the other. Does not take much to draw the obvious conclusion.
 
Yes damage I don't even think you get what that sentence meant.

It's more supported that it is light speed tbh it should be even faster

If both are laser beams but one side uses more advanced technology it's logically safe to believe the laser from the other side is faster or the same speed.

This isn't your usual type of argument. In science things like this can literally be proven by showcases. Kara already has better technology than Konaha.

Tbf they have already replicated Konaha technology so yea

Lastly the photon gun has a similar effect off ignoring durability just like Delta's beams.

At this point the opposition against Delta's light beat is getting old and annoying when evidence keeps piping up supporting it
 
> It's more supported that it is light speed tbh it should be even faster

Sorry but this is just pure nonsense.

Someone inventing a photon gun (apparently being able to shoot at lightspeed though that doesn't seem to be directly mentioned) and an android being built out of more advanced technology does not mean that the android can fire lasers at faster than light speed.

Also Delta's beams don't ignore durability; they just halt Regenerationn. Otherwise her lasers would have went straight through Kawaki.
 
Xulrev is neutral...Nani he didn't disagree

Imade points got debunked and one of them is just nonsense

@damage dude everything that ignores durability doesn't pass through the body. FRS goes through the opponent? Now honest ask yourself this.

I guess FRS doesn't ignore durability since it attacks your cells

Better yet Delta's beams does ignore durability to an extent by targeting cells. What are you talking about
 
Xulren is neutral, but his reason can be easily apllied against this thread, one of his point was:"The safer bet here is to hold off until further statements and feats that don't present issues with the wiki's Standards of Light exist to support this" and I agree with this, so for now, I disagree with this upgrade. Regarding the point of Imade you are right, his point can be debunked with the novel, but they didn't help either, in fact they just gave me to think more about consistences problems, but I will not use them as an argument, the argument of dispersion of light I saw was used a lot of times in this wiki BTW. that's the only reason why i mentioned it.
 
Than you can't use Imade as a reaosn to agree with.

Xulrev is neutral like you said. How are you agreeing with him and saying you disagree with the upgrade when you say u agree with being neutral man

The light beam doesn't bring issues with the wikis standardS

But fortunately the standards might need to be revised in the first place
 
After reading Medeus' post, I am leaning towards agreeing with this again.
 
Antvasima said:
After reading Medeus' post, I am leaning towards agreeing with this again.
Click to expand...
Which part of Medeus' post is convincing for you?
 
Damage3245 said:
> It's more supported that it is light speed tbh it should be even faster
Sorry but this is just pure nonsense.

Someone inventing a photon gun (apparently being able to shoot at lightspeed though that doesn't seem to be directly mentioned) and an android being built out of more advanced technology does not mean that the android can fire lasers at faster than light speed.
Click to expand...
>"It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera"

Delta is an android, as you said, made from technology, already meets this requirement, the photon gun just reinforces the argument....
 
Tbh I'm tired of arguing. This is more than enough evidence

There is more than enough evidence. More evidence than other verses Used to upgrade themselves with laser beams

No inconsistency with scaling

Translations proves it as a light beam

It's from technology

Photon gun

Kara has more advanced technology than the leaf village

Delta's laser beams aren't even visible to the normal eye as well because they are real light
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Of the main highlighted points, the number of main listed characters in the laser/light beam dodging page has more points to argue for them being light speed lasers than the later; that being three to one as seen above.

The main points for them being lasers is being technology based rather than being made of magic or spirit energy, them being described as photons, them firing in straight lines unaffected by gravity, and them having similar animations to various lasers described as light speed. And the only real argument against them not being lasers is them exploding upon impact, and them damaging targets. But they don't have to be laser pointers that give 0 damage to be considered real lasers.
Click to expand...
@Damage3245
 
I did not quite understand how the arguments of Xulrev and IMade do something the whole of CRT.

The motives in which they put forward to be against the current evidence provided by the manga basically require something extremely meaningless from the author, such as the author's complex knowledge of the mechanics of light. It would be like literally demanding from the author something like this:

" I'm going to do a laser on the manga, that when it touches matter or etc, it will glow and fade, just as true light does. Brilliant! "

Seriously? Which author would do this while using in his work some light attack? It would be extremely ridiculous even for the smartest of readers. This will never happen except for a few rare exceptions. The laser exploding has been accepted in this wikia several times and how it disperses doesn't really matter.

About lasers not being described as photons ...
In fact, this is true! The biggest problem with this is that while it is not described as photons, it is described that scientific weapons use real matter, that is ... If it is light, they are PHOTOONS and this is supported by LN..

On the precision argument ... I really agree with Xulrev!
The only problem with this, is that a more direct proof than what is presented, can simply take years, mainly because it is a monthly manga. That is, it may even fall into the fallacy of disbelief, we have the basics necessary for an upgrade, even a temporary one, as current information tends to be more true than wrong.
 
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