Naruto: Shippuden Akatsuki (+others) AP upgrade

[Wuke]

I can’t believe this is a thread that has to be made, but here we are. Given that the wiki already accepts Bijuu scaling to Island Level to Small Country (Depending on the Bijuu) it is laughable that the AP based Akatsuki members don’t scale to the bijuu, considering they kill them within the series. For example, Kakuzu and Hidan both have an AP tier of 7-C, while Yugito when fully transformed has an AP tier of 6-C. Kakuzu and Hidan only use AP based attacks to take down opponents anyway, so it’s ridiculous that they don’t scale. Of course I recognize with several akatsuki members this doesn’t necessarily follow, because they use hax, e.g. Itachi, Sasori, Kisame, Obito but for those like Deidara, Hidan, Kakuzu, they should be absolutely upscaled. It’s not even a stretch to say that the hax based ones would scale there too, as the databook says the akatsuki members are stronger than jinchuuriki and bijuus, but I’m not too concerned about that. Now, as a result of this, other characters would be upscaled as well, most notably Kakashi, Sage Mode Naruto, and Hebi Sasuke. It’s consistent for Kakashi as he is somewhat able to keep up with Pain, who already has AP scaling in that tier. As for Hebi Sasuke, him being at 6-C is fine as well, because a weaker version of himself (that being Taka) is able to harm fully transformed Bee who has 6-C scaling, and Bee even says he may be the toughest dude he’s ever fought. So in conclusion, Kakashi in the Akatsuki Suppression/Pain’s Assault arc, Hebi Sasuke, Sage Mode Naruto, Deidara, (with C3) Kakuzu, and Hidan should all be upgraded to 6-C respectively, and the rest of the akatsuki as well if you choose to apply the databook statement to all of them.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Following.

 

[BlazetheStriker]

following, agreed.

 

[LordTracer]

Pretty sure this is gonna be fixed when Part II revisions happen. It’ll take like 77 years but it’ll happen.

 

[Arcker123]

Following.

 

[KingTempest]

This wiki considers the Bijuu during the war arc to be stronger than the ones in the first Shippuden arc.

 

[Wuke]

This wiki considers the Bijuu during the war arc to be stronger than the ones in the first Shippuden arc.

That is strange, given that they were all nerfed with the Edo Tensei Jutsu. I've heard the argument that they are being amped by the rinnegan/sharingan, based off of Gyuki's statement about their Jinchuuriki abilites being enhanced, but this is further extrapolated to be their ability to perform combination attacks, hence their perception being the enhanced ability. Plus, I don't think the Sharingan amps AP anyway, and they only have projections of the rinnegan, so there is zero reason to assert they are stronger, in fact, they should be weaker.

 

[Wuke]

Edited the post because I realized this would also upscale Sage Mode Naruto in addition

 

[KingTempest]

That is strange, given that they were all nerfed with the Edo Tensei Jutsu. I've heard the argument that they are being amped by the rinnegan/sharingan, based off of Gyuki's statement about their Jinchuuriki abilites being enhanced, but this is further extrapolated to be their ability to perform combination attacks, hence their perception being the enhanced ability. Plus, I don't think the Sharingan amps AP anyway, and they only have projections of the rinnegan, so there is zero reason to assert they are stronger, in fact, they should be weaker.

They were shown to be much larger during the war, and with Bijuu size comes Bijuu chakra like when Kurama was shrunk from losing chakra.

Plus, this scales the Akatsuki higher than KCM Naruto...

 

[Damage3245]

Kakuzu and Hidan only use AP based attacks to take down opponents anyway, so it’s ridiculous that they don’t scale.

Imagine trying to physically scale Hiden to an Island-busting Biju Bomb, when Shikamaru almost decapitated him with an unenhanced knife, stabbed him effortlessly with his shadow jutsu and blew him to pieces using ordinary paper-bombs.

 

[Wuke]

They were shown to be much larger during the war, and with Bijuu size comes Bijuu chakra like when Kurama was shrunk from losing chakra.

Plus, this scales the Akatsuki higher than KCM Naruto...

Kishimoto often has inconsistencies with size. Also, Just saying because this one thing applies to Kurama, it should apply to the other Bijuu as well is an association fallacy. What's the problem with the 2nd part? It just upscales KCM Naruto. He himself states he's way stronger than when he fought pain anyway.

 

[Wuke]

Imagine trying to physically scale Hiden to an Island-busting Biju Bomb, when Shikamaru almost decapitated him with an unenhanced knife, stabbed him effortlessly with his shadow jutsu and blew him to pieces using ordinary paper-bombs.

Ok. for one, are you aware that in Naruto cutting damage scales VASTLY different than normal ap? Like, shinobi get cut by grass, so they have to wear leg guards. Same goes for piercing damage with his shadow stitching. Also, don't sleep on paper bombs. They were able to blow up hashi's deity gates when concentrated enough, and able to dismember obito.

 

[Arcker123]

I think it is a bit ludicrous to have akatsuki at 7-C when they consistently beat up 6-C biju so I agree with this for now.

 

[BlazetheStriker]

I think it is a bit ludicrous to have akatsuki at 7-C when they consistently beat up 6-C biju so I agree with this for now.

this

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I think it is a bit ludicrous to have akatsuki at 7-C when they consistently beat up 6-C biju so I agree with this for now.

Indeed.

 

[KingTempest]

Kishimoto often has inconsistencies with size. Also, Just saying because this one thing applies to Kurama, it should apply to the other Bijuu as well is an association fallacy.

With this logic, we should remove half of the abilities we have for the bijuu all because they're not the same Bijuu.

What's the problem with the 2nd part? It just upscales KCM Naruto. He himself states he's way stronger than when he fought pain anyway.

It wouldn't, since those same Bijuu's while powered down were stressing KCM Naruto.

 

[Wuke]

I think it is a bit ludicrous to have akatsuki at 7-C when they consistently beat up 6-C biju so I agree with this for now.

It's almost like the Akatsuki members were recruited SPECIFICALLY to kill/capture Bijuu

 

[Arcker123]

It's almost like the Akatsuki members were recruited SPECIFICALLY to kill/capture Bijuu

Weird huh.

 

[Damage3245]

Ok. for one, are you aware that in Naruto cutting damage scales VASTLY different than normal ap? Like, shinobi get cut by grass, so they have to wear leg guards. Same goes for piercing damage with his shadow stitching. Also, don't sleep on paper bombs. They were able to blow up hashi's deity gates when concentrated enough, and able to dismember obito.

I'm well aware. I'm one of the biggest proponents of that. But do you think Shikamaru could effortlessly damage a Biju with his knife?

But do you realize that your own OP quotes the databook which states that the leader recruited Shinobi with unique specialties? In other words they used hax for the most part to defeat the Biju, not overwhelming power.

 

[Wuke]

With this logic, we should remove half of the abilities we have for the bijuu all because they're not the same Bijuu.

It wouldn't, since those same Bijuu's while powered down were stressing KCM Naruto.

What abilities are you even talking about? You're also just randomly assuming Kishimoto is always drawing the bijuu to scale. Have you seen the comparisons between Part one Gamabunta vs Part 2?

As for the KCM part, all that happened was he got blitzed and comboed by all the jinchuuriki at once, as well as this being a VERY early KCM Naruto who could barely control his new power

 

[Arcker123]

But do you realize that your own OP quotes the databook which states that the leader recruited Shinobi with unique specialties? In other words they used hax for the most part to defeat the Biju, not overwhelming power.

Kakuzu and deidara only have physical attacks, unique specialty could easily refer to fighting style.

 

[BlazetheStriker]

discord.gg/CECZ987SeE
sorry i sneezed
you lot can come debate us directly if you have the courage

 

[Damage3245]

Kakuzu and deidara only have physical attacks, unique specialty could easily refer to fighting style.

Kakuzu has zero feats against Biju bombs.

Deidara had an off-screen feat with Tobi's assistance. Way too vague to say if he actually scales or not.

 

[Wuke]

I'm well aware. I'm one of the biggest proponents of that. But do you think Shikamaru could effortlessly damage a Biju with his knife?

But do you realize that your own OP quotes the databook which states that the leader recruited Shinobi with unique specialties? In other words they used hax for the most part to defeat the Biju, not overwhelming power.

I don't really see a problem with Shikamaru being able to do that necessarily. Even then, Bijuu are purely made out of Chakra, while Hidan has a human anatomy. Slicing doesn't have to work the same way on Bijuu as it does humans.

Yeah, I agree some of the akatsuki members usually use hax, but unique abilites can just as easily mean exceedingly powerful abilities, or versatile abilites, like deidaras clay. Like, can you name one hax kakuzu has that would help him damage a bijuu

 

[Wuke]

Kakuzu has zero feats against Biju bombs.

Deidara had an off-screen feat with Tobi's assistance. Way too vague to say if he actually scales or not.

Kakuzu would be above a bijuu bomb just through powerscaling. He uses physical attacks to bring down matatabi, and bijuu's can tank their own BB, so we derive Kakuzu>Matatabi~Bijuu Bomb

 

[Arcker123]

Kakuzu has zero feats against Biju bombs.

Deidara had an off-screen feat with Tobi's assistance. Way too vague to say if he actually scales or not.

What do you think they would have done? They defeated the bijuu and don’t have any hax to do so.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

deidara only have physical attacks,

Deidara relies on bombs not his own physical stats.

So only specific bombs would scale.

 

[Arcker123]

Deidara relies on bombs not his own physical stats.

So only specific bombs would scale.

I mean this is fair, But I don’t think he has a separate rating for his bombs.

 

[Damage3245]

Kakuzu would be above a bijuu bomb just through powerscaling. He uses physical attacks to bring down matatabi, and bijuu's can tank their own BB, so we derive Kakuzu>Matatabi~Bijuu Bomb

This is a joke.

"Kakuzu would be above a Biju Bomb just through powerscaling."

That's not how any of this works.

We're not just going to let you, a brand new user, come in and try and mess up the entirety of the verse. Do you realize that we've had these revisions all before?

 

[Wuke]

Deidara relies on bombs not his own physical stats.

So only specific bombs would scale.

You realize those bombs are just clay moulded with his chakra right? So it's using his chakra to power the bombs. Characters in Naruto use chakra to amp their AP and speed, so it does still scale to Deidara, via being moulded by his chakra

 

[BlazetheStriker]

This is a joke.

"Kakuzu would be above a Biju Bomb just through powerscaling."

That's not how any of this works.

We're not just going to let you, a brand new user, come in and try and mess up the entirety of the verse. Do you realize that we've had these revisions all before?

don't try and get out of the discussion by going after his account being new. these revisions should've been done ages ago.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't see any new evidence actually being brought to the table here. I'm not sure what the purpose in this CRT continuing is unless you bring up some new evidence.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I mean this is fair, But I don’t think he has a separate rating for his bombs.

CO is Low 6-B and doesn't scale to him. He currently doesn't have a separate rating for his bombs

 

[Wuke]

This is a joke.

"Kakuzu would be above a Biju Bomb just through powerscaling."

That's not how any of this works.

We're not just going to let you, a brand new user, come in and try and mess up the entirety of the verse. Do you realize that we've had these revisions all before?

You can say it's a joke or "that's not how it works" all you like, if you don't have an actual refutation then my argument stands. What does me having to be a brand new user mean. Powerscaling and Argumentation doesnt rely on recency lmao. Also, I don't see how this messes up the verse at all. If anything, it supports it, since NARRATIVELY and within the SHOW ITSELF the akatsuki's purpose is to CAPTURE and KILL Bijuu. This just sounds like an argument from incredulity at this point.

 

[BlazetheStriker]

I don't see any new evidence actually being brought to the table here. I'm not sure what the purpose in this CRT continuing is unless you bring up some new evidence.

much like 5-c roshi, the evidence is already there, you and the staff just willingly ignore it in favor of downplaying.

 

[Wuke]

CO is Low 6-B and doesn't scale to him. He currently doesn't have a separate rating for his bombs

Because it's a special self destruction move...

 

[LordTracer]

CO is Low 6-B and doesn't scale to him. He currently doesn't have a separate rating for his bombs

Yeah, even Deidara’s unnamed bombs vary. Some are weaker than Sasori, others can wound CS2 Sasuke.

 

[Damage3245]

much like 5-c roshi, the evidence is already there, you and the staff just willingly ignore it in favor of downplaying.

Nope. The evidence is not there. You just want to blindly upgrade multiple characters without any consideration for the scaling and feats already in place.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

You realize those bombs are just clay moulded with his chakra right? So it's using his chakra to power the bombs. Characters in Naruto use chakra to amp their AP and speed, so it does still scale to Deidara, via being moulded by his chakra

And when has Deidara relied on punching his opponents if he can amp himself to the same level as his bombs?

 

[Wuke]

I don't see any new evidence actually being brought to the table here. I'm not sure what the purpose in this CRT continuing is unless you bring up some new evidence.

But you have no valid refutation? You haven't actually shown me why my scaling doesnt work, nor argued against the direct narrative consistency of it.