Naruto: Minato Downgrade

[Shadow_Somnius]

@Shadow_Somnius

what would your counter be if i argued Fukasaku's statement is Holistic

First you'd have to explain what you mean by holistic. I am not native english...

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Somnius is making a claim, it's just hidden. What they're really saying by using that scan is Taka Sasuke~Middle of War Jonin Minato~Hokage Minato. The latter

this is head canon

this is only true if both participants agree that theres a difference between those versions, your entire argument only works on the premise that everyone agrees that there is variation, it stops working the moment someone says hokage minato and Jonin Minato are one in the same, the only difference being their status

claim is unfulfilled because it's just not addressed and assumed.

its unfulfilled because it doesn't exist.

 

[Damage3245]

Would you mind waiting? I will tell you if this is accepted since, I want some time to figure it out.

I'll save my vote then for when you decide on what to propose.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

First you'd have to explain what you mean by holistic. I am not native english...

that individual elements are part a larger hole and that you have to view them as being interconnected.

a more relevant example would be that most comparisons in fiction when it comes to strength are holistic, meaning that when they talk about a fighter, they not referring to one specific ability nor does it mean every ability, it's looks at the fighter as a whole including their entire arsenal, all their attributes and how they connect with one another.

so when there's a statement that says naruto is the strongest in Alaska, it doesn't mean his inherently stronger because he can punch hard, or because he has the rasenshuriken, it could be for a variety of reasons, even toad summons because toad summons are seen as holistically being part of Naruto's arsenal.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

So when i say Fukasaku's statement could be Holistic it means that Fukasaku's statment can be referring to the fact that Naruto mastered Sage Mode because Sage mode is now part of Naruto's arsenal and makes him a more rounded fighter. and none of this requires the author to make a specific distinction.

 

[TauanVictor]

Following.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

that individual elements are part a larger hole and that you have to be view them as being interconnected.

a more relevant example would be that most comparisions in fiction when it comes to strength are holistic, meaning that when they talk about a fighter, they not referring to one specific ability nor does it mean every ability, it's looks at the fighter as a whole including their entire arsenal, all their attributes and how they connect with one another.

so when theres a statement that says naruto is the strongest in Alaska, it doesnt mean his inherently stronger because he can punch hard, or because he has the rasenshuriken, it could be for a variety of reasons, even toad summons because toad summons are seen as holisticlaly being part of Naruto's arsenal.

That makes sense. Thanks for explaining.

Here I would argue on Fukasaku's intel. He couldn't have meant Toad summons since he's most likely aware that Minato has it as well being in a contract with him and all.

And has Godoret mentioned earlier, Fukasaku lacks much knowledge on Naruto's non-physical abilities to make a comment on.

So when i say Fukasaku's statement could be Holistic it means that Fukasaku's statment can be referring to the fact that Naruto mastered Sage Mode because Sage mode is now part of Naruto's arsenal and makes him a more rounded fighter. and none of this requires the author to make a specific distinction.

This is a fine interpretation that I can go with depending upon if I understood it correctly. It would mean that Naruto doesn't necessarily surpass Minato is every single stat but just that Naruto is well rounded to surpass him. This was sort of what I was going for as well. For if Naruto surpassed Minato, then his physical stats should be at the very least comparable to Minato's, for a notable difference in stats wouldn't allow for Naruto to achieve a victory since he lack any quick methods or haxes to take him out.

SM is a stat-based amp mainly, which is why I am believing the difference in physicals makes most of the difference but it doesn't have to be that Naruto should supersede Minato in every single one of them.

 

[Godernet]

how do you feel about this kind of implying Minato and Masked Man Obito > Sage Naruto

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Deceived got clapped
- a wise person in a far away place

But yeah I'll meatride Deceived rq. Surpassing his predecessors in the SM context can just refer to the fact that Naruto mastered SM, especially when we know that Jiraiya is an incomplete SM user and Minato has a hard time entering SM. Not gonna go in depth why I think so, since I'd just be parroting Deceived, but when we consider all we know about those 3 SM users, the interpretation that it's referring to Naruto's SM mastery being better seems to be the more likely interpretation.

I don't care atm to comment on the rest of the OP and by no means does this mean I inherently disagree with the OP's conclusion, I just wanted to echo my agreement with Deceived's sentiment. I'm sure the resident Minato simp will provide the opposing side frequently in this CRT.

 

[GTsek]

My thoughts about Fukazaku's statement are the same as Arc and Deceived. As for CRT in general, I see no reason for Minato to scale to Ay in any regard other than reaction.

 

[Deceived3596]

I've had about 6 different illegitimate children with the amount of meat riding that's direct at me.

Y'all keep bouncing even though i'm crying because I've been sucked dry and my balls hurt.

 

[Deceived3596]

Yes, but if this 'surpass' doesn't have any quantifiers we do not have any base to argue for that.

Yeah.... which is why i'm saying both interpretations are equally valid in a vacuum because "surpass" doesn't quantify a numerical amount of differences between both parties. It just proves that one's above another in something. That's all, it doesn't provide an actual amount of things that person is above another in.

If the author's intention was to have Naruto only surpass Minato in SM, he has no reason to omit it. We are talking about a direct explicit statement here not some tangential implication.

He didn't omit anything, he was just vague in context. If the author had intended for the statement to be assumed that Pa's referencing Naruto's level of Sage Mode in comparison to another's he would've succeeded in having that being conveyed since the wording he provided implies such. Also the statement is direct in intent (as in, we know that Naruto did "surpass" Minato and Jiraya in something) but not context (as in, we don't innately know what he's surpassed exactly).

It literally means to be better than or to be greater.

Being greater than someone =/= being greater than them in all metrics, Deontay Wilder "surpasses" Terrance Crawford because he's physically stronger, hits harder etc, doesn't mean he's a better boxer compared to Terrance even though Wilder objectively does "surpass" him in multiple categorizes.

It isn't. Occum's razor vouches for the simplest and easiest conclusion.

If i'm arguing both interpretations are equally true when examined in an vacuum, then appealing to Occam's Razor doesn't matter because both interpretations require the same level of assumptions as each other.

My argument takes the statement as it says. I do not add, change or pick something very particular from the statement. By all means, mine adhere's to the razor more.
SM caveat proponents are taking something very particular from the statement and then dismissing the overall implication.

I may not have worded it right before but many times when I debated on the topic I have been met with attempts to dismiss the entire statement because it could have meant SM without appropriate evidences for it.

It doesn't as i explained above, and has multiple other people as well.

I'm not dismissing anything, i'm saying your interpretation isn't the only valid interpretation.

I concur, that's why I brought Occum's razor in.

If you're agreeing with me then idk why you're appealing to Occam's Razor when Occam's Razor isn't applicable in this situation.

I don't think many people have any problems believing SM Naruto has greater AP. Minato's AP feats prior to his Edo incarnation shouldn't surpass Naruto's.

At least currently, more people disagree with it compared to agree with it tbh.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

this is head canon

this is only true if both participants agree that theres a difference between those versions, your entire argument only works on the premise that everyone agrees that there is variation, it stops working the moment someone says hokage minato and Jonin Minato are one in the same, the only difference being their status

its unfulfilled because it doesn't exist.

Saying Hokage Minato and Jonin Minato are the same is in and of itself a claim Ppl don't use BoS Naruto antifeats to scale War Arc Base Naruto. Now of course, even if Hokage Minato is stronger (which he is), that doesn't get us anywhere quantifiably, which is why statements/feats of Hokage Minato should be used to scale him. If those scale him higher than his jonin counterpart, then it can be safely deduced that he is indeed stronger as Hokage, which is what I'll be establishing (probably after dinner), and thus his jonin scaling wouldn't matter (not that I particularly think Jonin Minato~Taka Sasuke is a great meta anyways, but that's another can of worms that I'm not sure I'm gonna get into).

 

[Shadyboi0]

Jonin Minato~Taka Sasuke is a great meta

that exists?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

that exists?

That is one of the things the OP talks about

 

[Shadyboi0]

Doesn't Ay and Bee's statements only apply to jonin minato?

 

[TauanVictor]

Saying Hokage Minato and Jonin Minato are the same is in and of itself a claim Ppl don't use BoS Naruto antifeats to scale War Arc Base Naruto. Now of course, even if Hokage Minato is stronger (which he is), that doesn't get us anywhere quantifiably, which is why statements/feats of Hokage Minato should be used to scale him. If those scale him higher than his jonin counterpart, then it can be safely deduced that he is indeed stronger as Hokage, which is what I'll be establishing (probably after dinner), and thus his jonin scaling wouldn't matter (not that I particularly think Jonin Minato~Taka Sasuke is a great meta anyways, but that's another can of worms that I'm not sure I'm gonna get into).

 

[Ayewale]

Okay I'll through my hat into the ring.
(Quick note-thanks for the cordial tone OP)

1. I cannot think of a lot of CRTs where someone advocates for a downgrade from a specific tier, for a specific character, but doesn't state what they're downgrading to in the original post. I know you said you're taking your time but that's the bare minimum, it's difficult to properly argue against your interpretation of these feats when half of your interpretation is missing. However, going by just the arguments presented, there's still quite a few problems.
2. Regarding the statement about Pain Arc Naruto surpassing Minato.
   

   He definitely meant as a Sage. Throughout the training arc, Fukasaku highlights several times how no one has ever fully mastered Sage Mode without frog features. This is not contradicted by Minato himself saying he sucks at it. We also have no proof of Fusaku knowing the full extent of Minato's capabilities or when he even taught Minato Sage Mode. He didn't even know Naruto's full capabilities until during the fight with Pain outside of the sage mode and Frog Kumite Taijutsu he taught him.

   Godernet's interpretation of events (and the wiki at large's) makes much more sense than taking the Fukasaku to be saying "yeah Sage Mode Naruto is stronger overall than Minato". This is supported by the fact that Minato was fully convinced that Sage Mode Naruto needed to get stronger to defeat Obito, a person Minato already defeated. Further support comes from how Fukasaku was training naruto's Sage Mode, and that he highlights multiple times how difficult Sage Mode is to learn, and Naruto masters it.
3. I'm gonna be honest, your rebuttal to C saying there's no one faster than him ever since Minato died is very, very weak. "There's no one faster than me" is objectively a statement that applies to the present. "Ever since the fourth hokage died" is also pretty clear: Minato was faster than him, but since he's dead, he believes he's the fastest. Or put more bluntly, Minato is faster.
4. Killer Bee fought a Jonin Minato, that is who he thinks Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke is probably tougher than.
   1. You haven't provided an estimation as to how strong Jonin Minato is in comparison to Kage Minato. In fairness, you probably can't because there isn't much to go off, but that means that it's completely inapplicable for means of a downgrade.
   2. The word 'probably' here also means this evidence isn't definitive anyways. Which isn't great considering the statement itself is already very hard to use for scaling.

   3. No? the burden of proof would be on you, your the one making the claim that Minato's strength varies on when in the war it took place.

      Not really. The OP is the one trying to use Killer Bee's fight with Jonin Minato as proof for a downgrade, so the onus is on them (and anyone else in support of using this feat for anything) to prove that Jonin/Kage Minato are comparable in strength. The default assumption would be that since verifying Jonin Minato's strength is really hard to do objectively, it shouldn't be used for scaling, which makes the claim OP made based off it invalid.
      1. On a sidenote, assuming that the Kage version of a character is stronger than their Jonin counterpart is an incredibly reasonable assumption, if not the default.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: The long, and long awaited GokuSparkle debunk

1. A lot of people have already provided alternate interpretations to this statement, but I'll also add that Fukasaku's knowledge on Minato's strength is pretty unknown. There's been absolutely no mention of the relationship between the two. And I'm gonna take an alternate route to debunking this, just directly scaling him above Naruto. Minato is stated to rival KM0 Naruto's Rasenshuriken in terms of power (I know, how could I use the scan I spent so long debunking? But for the purposes of scaling Minato>PA SM Naruto, that's all he needs).

It's stated that a hit from the Rasenshuriken brings certain death, and that no one can withstand its impact.

While you can argue hyperbole for the bolded text, as those descriptions are often flowery/exaggerated, it's hard to argue the same for the very plain description of its power in the paragraph giving info on the jutsu. Considering Tendo had already been introduced by the 3rd databook, this means Minato~RS>Tendo's durability, who took multiple hits from SM Naruto and scales to/above SM Naruto at FP. And just as an extra cherry on top, though it's less clear than the other two statements, it's implied that Rasenshuriken was the strongest jutsu introduced at the time ("The wind change of chakra nature makes Rasen the most powerful), and SM Naruto's base stats are most certainly not stronger than any jutsu introduced up to the 3rd databook, which includes the likes of Kirin, C0, Susanoo, Amaterasu, etc.

This is consistent with it being stated that no one can surpass Minato other than Naruto, and PA SM Naruto was most certainly not the strongest person in the world, arguably not even top 5.

Ay also thinks Minato is the finest shinobi to have ever lived, and the goat @Arc7Kuroi translated the raws, finding that the statement is referring to combat ability and not just strength of character like was argued in an old CRT. And if you're only gonna accept VIZ, that's fine, because Ay confirms that his statement is in context of power in the same page.

And when Naruto's thinking of things he's been entrusted with that he needs to accomplish, Kakashi saying he can surpass Minato is one of the things he thinks of, implying he hasn't achieved that yet.

So no, PA SM Naruto is not stronger than Minato.

2. While you could make a decent argument for PA SM Naruto>Minato, Base Ay~Minato completely falls flat and basically every piece of evidence other than this one vague statement contradicts it. And the statement itself is very questionable. For one, Cee is 26, and considering Naruto is 17 and Minato died when Naruto was born, that means he was like 7-8 years old when the 3rd War ended. There's very little chance he ever saw Minato in action, or that he was even a shinobi at the time.

And more importantly, he's specifically saying that Ay's nerve transmission and reaction speed are on par with Minato's, not his overall speed. This is a very clear distinction, much as you argue it isn't. Nerve transmission is just information being electrically sent through the membrane, which is not at all the speed at which you run or punch.

As for your debunk to the statement about him being the fastest since Minato died, it doesn't really debunk anything, as the person above me explained. As I showed earlier in this comment, Ay considers Minato the greatest shinobi to ever live, meaning he's superior to himself. Even if you only think Minato was the fastest while he was alive, that's fine, cause the 3rd Raikage was alive when Minato was around, and the Edo 3rd Raikage fought KCM Naruto, who's much faster than Base Ay. You can also refer to a lot of the other things I mentioned in 1 that prove Minato being >Base Ay.

In addition, Base Tsunade scales to Base Ay in terms of speed, if not V1 Ay given that Ay thought she could help him against Naruto and Bee, and Tsunade thought she could hold Ay off.

Minato being faster than Base Tsunade is so obvious it hurts, but if you really want an argument for it, Minato>3rd Raikage~KCM Naruto>SM Naruto>Jiraiya~Tsunade. Or you could just say Minato~KCM Naruto>SM Naruto>Jiraiya~Tsunade.

Another thing, Minato's Shunshin is faster than Tobirama's

Shunshin being such a speed amp that it allows you to blitz people you're relative to in combat speed.

Tobirama is faster than Hashirama and Madara, so basically Minato's Shunshin is more than a blitz tier over the Founders. Yeah.......

Minato>>>>>Base Ay. As for the databook thing, it's true that the manga is primary canon, and takes precedence over the databook, but that's only if there's really a contradiction between the two. But there isn't. All the antistatements from the manga for Minato are made by characters whose knowledge on Minato is questionable/the statement itself is questionable (like Fukasaku saying SM Naruto>Minato, which can be reinterpreted to not contradict the databook, making the sources consistent with each other, which is better than just saying manga right, databook wrong, toss it out), while the databook is WoG and most of the instances where I've used it, it's been very clear in meaning.

3. Bee said that, yet he also said KCM Naruto is just like Jonin Minato twice. But even if we ignore that, it's basically fact that Hokage Minato is stronger than Bee's idea of Minato here. Ninja are stated to get stronger from fighting, training, and experience, so obviously over the course of the war and with training he'd get stronger.

Besides that, Minato is stronger than Orochimaru.

Who Sasuke didn't surpass until the Five Kage Summit (that's the last time Suigetsu saw Sasuke), meaning Orochimaru>Taka Sasuke.

In conclusion, Minato is the goat. SM Naruto victim? More like KCM2 Naruto rival.

 

[Shadyboi0]

In conclusion, Minato is the goat. SM Naruto victim? More like KCM2 Naruto rival.

Let him cook. I disagree with the OP due to the reasons stated in GokuSparkle's college essay.

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

He definitely meant as a Sage. Throughout the training arc, Fukasaku highlights several times how no one has ever fully mastered Sage Mode without frog features. This is not contradicted by Minato himself saying he sucks at it.

This is true but that is still nowhere near enough to argue that he solely meant sage. And besides, if he really meant as a Sage, then that ship sailed long ago since he already speculated that Naruto surpassed Jiraya as a sage as soon as he achieved SM without the oil.

Spoiler

Again, its an important distinction. The statement could have meant overall as well. Considering Fukasaku has made the comment once, I doubt he'd make it again on SM alone, would make more sense if it was overall.

We also have no proof of Fusaku knowing the full extent of Minato's capabilities or when he even taught Minato Sage Mode. He didn't even know Naruto's full capabilities until during the fight with Pain outside of the sage mode and Frog Kumite Taijutsu he taught him.

But we also have no proof of Fukasaku not knowing. Anyway, I was more focusing on physicals here which Fukasaku should have good knowledge about.

Why is C a reliable source of Minato's capabilities?

Because he has not been shown to be unreliable in any shape or form. Mind you, he wouldn't have been so confident in making such an internal monologue if he didn't have atleast enough knowledge to justify it.

1). this is just referring to speed not AP.

Okay.

2). We later see Base Edo Minato capable of reacting and moving in a fight with 8th Gate Guy and Six Paths Madara something Ay has never shown the ability to do. in fact, he got out sped by KCM Naruto at his top speeds. So even his being superior in speed to Base Minato is unlikely.

Edo Minato doesn't count because that's a Minato who has been stuck in the Reaper's belly for 2 decades nearly.

Spoiler

We already know from Bee that fighting makes one stronger and Minato has been fighting with the Kyuubi for 17 years likely. Plenty to grow considerably stronger.

The only time we've ever seen them fight was against Jounin Minato and it was more of an Ay and Bee vs Minato with Bee and Minato barely interacting during the fight.

But there might have been battles after this since A4 does mention countless.

Also, we know that MS Sasuke doesn't surpass his previous CM2 self until the Kage Summit. Sasuke much later after the Itachi fight claims he would have never beaten a healthy Orochimaru at the point he killed him. Minato is called superior to both Orochimaru and Old Hiruzen both directly and indirectly.

Hmm. This is what Sasuke said.

Spoiler

He said that in response to Karin who was calling him pathetic for nearly dying against Deidara when he handily took down Orochimaru. This does not mean he would be incapable of defeating Orochimaru when he's healthy.

It wouldn't make much sense either as Sasuke would have had to been a special kind of cocky if he seriously believed he could face his brother when he can't even defeat his own master who is terrified of Itachi.

We also see others compare KCM and KCM2 Naruto to Minato a lot. Tsunade, Bee, Ay, Kakashi, and Kurama all do.

If I am not wrong. They all compare Naruto based on how his Shunshin is essentially alike Minato's Hirashin. Basically how Naruto is more like the Yellow Flash however this isn't supposed to mean that Naruto just reached Minato's level. All were noting their similarity.

Minato himself saw the fight Sage Naruto had with Pain and still thought Naruto would need to master the Nine tails to beat Obito, someone Minato had already beaten in the past.

The flaw lies in the statement itself. Minato sacrificed his life so that Naruto could gain a power that would put him on his level so that he could defeat an opponent that he defeated himself? See how senseless that is?

My interpretation is more logically sound.

In their encounter, Minato praised and was worried about Obito's future deeds for multiple reasons: his ability to infiltrate konoha without detection, his identity as madara uchiha, his ability to unseal & control the nine tails and nearly destroy the village, his space time abilities, and his "dangerous ideology"

Spoiler

And as obito insinuates above, we see Minato acknowledge that there's obviously more at play, a plan, and the means for obito, leading minato to state verbatim that if he doesn't stop obito now, they'd have even bigger problems than the nine tails in the future:

Spoiler

So, its likely that he meant that Naruto would require the nine-tails to fight an Obito who's an even greater threat and would make sense of his sacrifice as well.

We also have smaller statements like how Old Hiruzen is the strongest of the five Kage during Part 1. In an Era where Ay the 4th was Raikage. And we know that Minato>>>Old Hiruzen. tbf he could have gotten stronger but this was just a side point.

I bank on your scratched point. The Databook and the manga support it.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

This is true but that is still nowhere near enough to argue that he solely meant sage. And besides, if he really meant as a Sage, then that ship sailed long ago since he already speculated that Naruto surpassed Jiraya as a sage as soon as he achieved SM without the oil.

Spoiler

Again, its an important distinction. The statement could have meant overall as well. Considering Fukasaku has made the comment once, I doubt he'd make it again on SM alone, would make more sense if it was overall.

He said maybe, and that was only in reference to Jiraiya. In the Pain fight, he said it absolutely, and in reference to both Jiraiya and Minato.

Edo Minato doesn't count because that's a Minato who has been stuck in the Reaper's belly for 2 decades nearly.

Spoiler

We already know from Bee that fighting makes one stronger and Minato has been fighting with the Kyuubi for 17 years likely. Plenty to grow considerably stronger.

Not that I think Hokage Minato scales to 8th Gate Guy, but the Edo Hokage are weaker than their alive counterparts, and Hiruzen implies Edo Minato is relative to Alive Minato.

Hmm. This is what Sasuke said.

Spoiler

He said that in response to Karin who was calling him pathetic for nearly dying against Deidara when he handily took down Orochimaru. This does not mean he would be incapable of defeating Orochimaru when he's healthy.

Besides the "We've only now surpassed our mentors" statement I showed in my huge post, he also said the only reason Sasuke beat Orochimaru is because his arms were sealed, making this very consistent.

It wouldn't make much sense either as Sasuke would have had to been a special kind of cocky if he seriously believed he could face his brother when he can't even defeat his own master who is terrified of Itachi.

He doesn't really know how strong Orochimaru is. When he fought Prime Oro in the Forest of Death, Oro was hardly trying, and when he joined Orochimaru at the end of P1 and started training with him, he was already weakened. At best, you can say Hebi Sasuke>Non-Sick Armless Orochimaru.

If I am not wrong. They all compare Naruto based on how his Shunshin is essentially alike Minato's Hirashin. Basically how Naruto is more like the Yellow Flash however this isn't supposed to mean that Naruto just reached Minato's level. All were noting their similarity.

FTG being compared to Shunshin doesn't make sense. And why would both KCM1 and KCM2 be compared to FTG when it's the same speed? KCM1 being compared to Jonin Minato's Shunshin and KCM2 to Hokage's is more logical.

The flaw lies in the statement itself. Minato sacrificed his life so that Naruto could gain a power that would put him on his level so that he could defeat an opponent that he defeated himself? See how senseless that is?

The reason he sacrificed his life was to maintain the Bijuu balance, and because he knew Naruto was the child of prophecy.

 

[Godernet]

This is true but that is still nowhere near enough to argue that he solely meant sage. And besides, if he really meant as a Sage, then that ship sailed long ago since he already speculated that Naruto surpassed Jiraya as a sage as soon as he achieved SM without the oil.

Fukasaku is a complete unknown in regard to his relationship and knowledge of Minato. Besides if we take the statement the way you describe it that means Naruto has surpassed Minato in every regard which we know isn't true since he does not become faster than him until arcs later. Considering the context of Naruto and Fukasaku's relationship is solely Sage Training you would need to prove that his statement was also referring to other stats. This point would be better served as a backup point considering it requires some assumption.

Again, its an important distinction. The statement could have meant overall as well. Considering Fukasaku has made the comment once, I doubt he'd make it again on SM alone, would make more sense if it was overall.
[/SPOILER]

Fukasaku doesn't even make the comment. He thinks it to himself. this comment could also be interpreted as his suspicions of Naruto surpassing Jiraiya and Minato in Senjutsu have been confirmed correct.

But we also have no proof of Fukasaku not knowing. Anyway, I was more focusing on physicals here which Fukasaku should have good knowledge about.

Because he has not been shown to be unreliable in any shape or form. Mind you, he wouldn't have been so confident in making such an internal monologue if he didn't have atleast enough knowledge to justify it.

If you're making this claim you would need to prove that he is reliable in that regard. just saying "this could mean this, but it could also mean that" isn't solid enough for a rating change.

Edo Minato doesn't count because that's a Minato who has been stuck in the Reaper's belly for 2 decades nearly.

Tobirama explains that they were near full power meaning these Edos are still weaker than their original bodies.

We already know from Bee that fighting makes one stronger and Minato has been fighting with the Kyuubi for 17 years likely. Plenty to grow considerably stronger.

Likely isn't good enough since this was never explained or even hinted at. For all, we know Kurama became cool with Minato when his other half became cool with Naruto since they can sense each other, and Minato's Kurama was not at all surprised by his other half being cool with Naruto.

But there might have been battles after this since A4 does mention countless.

Hmm. This is what Sasuke said.

He said that in response to Karin who was calling him pathetic for nearly dying against Deidara when he handily took down Orochimaru. This does not mean he would be incapable of defeating Orochimaru when he's healthy.

I was referring to a separate comment Sasuke made but I'll need to go back and check.

It wouldn't make much sense either as Sasuke would have had to been a special kind of cocky if he seriously believed he could face his brother when he can't even defeat his own master who is terrified of Itachi.

Sasuke tried to attack all 5 Kage to get to Danzo. When he hates someone he's very irrational. Also, neither Sasuke nor Orochimaru knew Itachi's full power he had no knowledge of Susanoo or any abilities that come with it. Even Sasuke has never seen the full power of Orochimaru since he had no access to his jutsu.

If I am not wrong. They all compare Naruto based on how his Shunshin is essentially alike Minato's Hirashin. Basically how Naruto is more like the Yellow Flash however this isn't supposed to mean that Naruto just reached Minato's level. All were noting their similarity.

In Ay's case, he was referring to Naruto's ability to keep up with Ay just like Minato could with his reactions and combat speeds.

The flaw lies in the statement itself. Minato sacrificed his life so that Naruto could gain a power that would put him on his level so that he could defeat an opponent that he defeated himself? See how senseless that is?

It's pretty logically sound in the context of the fight between Minato and Obito. He beat Obito, Obito got away, and Minato was low on chakra and couldn't fully seal Kurama's massive amount of chakra, so he needed to use the reaper death seal to split and seal Kurama which would kill him, He gave Naruto the Nine tails to beat someone he would no longer be able to as he was dying.

My interpretation is more logically sound.

In their encounter, Minato praised and was worried about Obito's future deeds for multiple reasons: his ability to infiltrate konoha without detection, his identity as madara uchiha, his ability to unseal & control the nine tails and nearly destroy the village, his space time abilities, and his "dangerous ideology"

this is all true but Minato having watched the pain fight thought he would need extraordinary strength to beat Obito. so more than likely he thought Sage Naruto was not enough and it needed to be the Nine Tails Power.

And as obito insinuates above, we see Minato acknowledge that there's obviously more at play, a plan, and the means for obito, leading minato to state verbatim that if he doesn't stop obito now, they'd have even bigger problems than the nine tails in the future:

As even you stated above he was referring to Obito's plan making him a bigger threat than the nine tails. which is very true since he became the Ten-Tails Jinchuuriki something that surpassed the nine tails.

I bank on your scratched point. The Databook and the manga support it.

Fair, but an Ay, that was 12 years older than his rival days with Minato, was still weaker than old Hiruzen, him being significantly stronger in between Part 1 and Part 2 during a time of loosely sustained peace when we know Kage do nothing but political stuff half the time is unlikely.

But even then it's all more assumptions.


Edit: Sparkle also found that "Hebi Sasuke wouldn't have beaten an Orochimaru with Arms" Panel I was referring to but it was said by Suigetsu not Sasuke my bad. tbf Sasuke doesn't even attempt to refute it so he likely agrees anyways.

 

[Hasty12345]

Baryon mode Minato key when?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Saying Hokage Minato and Jonin Minato are the same is in and of itself a claim

It's not, because the series only gives us 1 minato to work with, the series doesnt tell us that hokage is a power amp lol

Ppl don't use BoS Naruto antifeats to scale War Arc Base Naruto.

False equivalence, we actively see Naruto grow in power, his feats arnt entirely based on off screen assumptions

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Fukasaku is a complete unknown in regard to his relationship and knowledge of Minato. Besides if we take the statement the way you describe it that means Naruto has surpassed Minato in every regard which we know isn't true since he does not become faster than him until arcs later. Considering the context of Naruto and Fukasaku's relationship is solely Sage Training you would need to prove that his statement was also referring to other stats. This point would be better served as a backup point considering it requires some assumption.

This is Incorrect, We know Minato has toad sage mode, which would have required him to train with Fukasaku at mount Myboku, Fukasaku likely does know Minato's strength.


also why are @Shadow_Somnius and @Godernet both of you arguing about Edo Minato's feat like it's an actual feat for Minato , Rock Lee is the one that threw the Kunai fast enough to intercept Might Guy and even then it's not impressive because it's a travel speed feat.

 

[Hasty12345]

The most impressive part of the Madara feat is Minato’s jacket is unscathed in the aftermath. Minato just built different. Loses 2 arms no problem but dude won’t let his jacket get dirty.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

This is a fine interpretation that I can go with depending upon if I understood it correctly. It would mean that Naruto doesn't necessarily surpass Minato is every single stat but just that Naruto is well rounded to surpass him. This was sort of what I was going for as well. For if Naruto surpassed Minato, then his physical stats should be at the very least comparable to Minato's, for a notable difference in stats wouldn't allow for Naruto to achieve a victory since he lack any quick methods or haxes to take him out.

not necessarily, if it's holistic it can be referring to sage mode specifically. given that base naruto doesnt actually have any feats of his own nor scaling to suggest his on par with Minato

SM is a stat-based amp mainly, which is why I am believing the difference in physicals makes most of the difference but it doesn't have to be that Naruto should supersede Minato in every single one of them.

Yes.

 

[Godernet]

This is Incorrect, We know Minato has toad sage mode, which would have required him to train with Fukasaku at mount Myboku, Fukasaku likely does know Minato's strength.

Not unknown in the sense that he has no idea about Minato, Unknown in that we have no idea about their relationship. For all, we know Jiraiya brought Minato to Mt Myobuku to learn it when he was younger. There's very little evidence that would indicate he knows the full extent of what Minato can do.

also why are @Shadow_Somnius and @Godernet both of you arguing about Edo Minato's feat like it's an actual feat for Minato , Rock Lee is the one that threw the Kunai fast enough to intercept Might Guy and even then it's not impressive because it's a travel speed feat.

Minato teleported in between them and turned his entire body around so that the Orbs would hit his back and teleported out before they could clash in close proximity. that's way more impressive than Lee timing a Kunai for when Madara attacked. How is that not a combat speed and reaction speed feat for Minato and to a lesser extent Sixth Gate Lee?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Minato teleported in between them and turned his entire body around so that the Orbs would hit his back and teleported out before they could clash in close

because the Kunai already existed between those spaces, it's not a speed feat for minato because he simply teleported to where the kunai already was, also Minato did not turn his back, when he teleported his back was already to the side

 

[Godernet]

because the Kunai already existed between those spaces, it's not a speed feat for minato because he simply teleported to where the kunai already was, also Minato did not turn his back, when he teleported his back was already to the side

In the Manga, it's less apparent but it definitely looks like he turns around based on how he's positioned differently in the two panels.

And in the anime, he's just blatantly moving before he teleports away.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

In the Manga, it's less apparent but it definitely looks like he turns around based on how he's positioned differently in the two panels.

one is a close up shot the other is wide shot, theres no difference in positions

 

[GTsek]

Minato with Sage Mode had no reaction to Juubidara and was blitzed. Even if we consider that he moved in this scene, it's a huge outlier, Guy was so fast that the Juubidara had trouble reacting, Minato was infinitely inferior to Juubidara, this should not be considered a feat but an outlier. The entire scene is already ridiculous, starting with Lee's kunai moving faster than Guy.

 

[Godernet]

Minato with Sage Mode had no reaction to Juubidara and was blitzed. Even if we consider that he moved in this scene, it's a huge outlier, Guy was so fast that the Juubidara had trouble reacting, Minato was infinitely inferior to Juubidara, this should not be considered a feat but an outlier. The entire scene is already ridiculous, starting with Lee's kunai moving faster than Guy.

Minato didn't get blitzed by Juubidara. And Madara never has any trouble reacting to Guy's mid-air travel movement speed only his attack speed via Sekizo and Night Guy.

Also, this isn't the only time Minato, Kakashi, and Lee react to Juubidara's attacks.

I don't really feel like getting into an entire argument about this one point. It can happen in a speed-scaling thread eventually. But IMO some of the War Arc high tiers do have the reaction speeds and to a lesser degree combat speeds to involve themselves in fights with Shippuden God tiers.

 

[GTsek]

Minato didn't get blitzed by Juubidara. And Madara never has any trouble reacting to Guy's mid-air travel movement speed only his attack speed via Sekizo and Night Guy.

Also, this isn't the only time Minato, Kakashi, and Lee react to Juubidara's attacks.

I don't really feel like getting into an entire argument about this one point. It can happen in a speed-scaling thread eventually. But IMO some of the War Arc high tiers do have the reaction speeds and to a lesser degree combat speeds to involve themselves in fights with Shippuden God tiers.

You are trying to scale a base Minato Edo, who is inferior to himself alive in his peak for Guy... Remember Tobirama's statement, he says that Orochimaru didn't have enough ability to bring them in their peak, so the Hokages were below their peak. Minato base in his peak couldn't blitz the teenage Obito and even said for Naruto that didn't see how he (Minato) could defeat Obito. You say that Kakashi and Lee also react to Juubidara only makes the outlier more clear. Any scale between top tier and god tiers is simply ridiculous...

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

1. A lot of people have already provided alternate interpretations to this statement, but I'll also add that Fukasaku's knowledge on Minato's strength is pretty unknown. There's been absolutely no mention of the relationship between the two. And I'm gonna take an alternate route to debunking this, just directly scaling him above Naruto. Minato is stated to rival KM0 Naruto's Rasenshuriken in terms of power (I know, how could I use the scan I spent so long debunking? But for the purposes of scaling Minato>PA SM Naruto, that's all he needs).

[/SPOILER]

All this means is that in AP, Minato is superior. You don't need to surpass one in all stats to surpass them overall. This also talks of IA Naruto who would eventually go on to master Rasenshuriken on top of using it with SM. So, it doesn't prove much except for the fact that a far weaker Naruto is relative in AP to Minato? Are you trying to debunk yourself?

Furthermore, this could be easily talking of SM Minato's AP as well. Nothing implies it is strictly limited to his base.

It's stated that a hit from the Rasenshuriken brings certain death, and that no one can withstand its impact.

While you can argue hyperbole for the bolded text, as those descriptions are often flowery/exaggerated, it's hard to argue the same for the very plain description of its power in the paragraph giving info on the jutsu. Considering Tendo had already been introduced by the 3rd databook, this means Minato~RS>Tendo's durability, who took multiple hits from SM Naruto and scales to/above SM Naruto at FP. And just as an extra cherry on top, though it's less clear than the other two statements, it's implied that Rasenshuriken was the strongest jutsu introduced at the time ("The wind change of chakra nature makes Rasen the most powerful), and SM Naruto's base stats are most certainly not stronger than any jutsu introduced up to the 3rd databook, which includes the likes of Kirin, C0, Susanoo, Amaterasu, etc.

Those statements are hyperbolic at best. I can show you a plethora of similar statements for many characters from the same book. Besides, it simply states that no one can withstand it. 'Withstand' means to be undamaged by or to resist. It simply means Tendo won't get away unscathed from Minato's Rasengan (or a superior tech) however it doesn't mean it's anywhere close enough to bring him down.

"The most powerful" is the most obvious case of hyperbole, especially since its one of the darkened statements. Please.

This is consistent with it being stated that no one can surpass Minato other than Naruto, and PA SM Naruto was most certainly not the strongest person in the world, arguably not even top 5.

Are you genuinely being serious or are you just playing lol? The scans are during IA ie. Prior to SM. The third Databook also came prior to SM.

Ay also thinks Minato is the finest shinobi to have ever lived, and the goat @Arc7Kuroi translated the raws, finding that the statement is referring to combat ability and not just strength of character like was argued in an old CRT. And if you're only gonna accept VIZ, that's fine, because Ay confirms that his statement is in context of power in the same page.

"There were no shinobi who surpassed that man." You got to be kidding.

Besides this is blatantly hyperbolic and meant to hype Minato since A4 is knowledgeable both on Madara and Hashirama who are far stronger than him.

Furthermore, A4 has never fought SM Naruto neither is he aware of KCM Naruto's full power - 13 clones who can comfortably hurl FRSs at their target.

In addition to this, the Viz doesn't have him imply that its power he's talking about. His power is a different topic from what he initially started with. He brings up the noble and finer part to show how great a shinobi he was, then Jiraya to back him up, calling him a savior and whatnot, and then brings up his power to essentially say that Minato was mistaken. Finer can simply mean greater or better not necessarily in power. No different from Hashirama's Itachi's greater.

I do not necessarily conform to fan translations (You have no idea how many times I have been bamboozled by that). But I did try to use DeepL to translate it myself and the implications are vague at best.

てあ手合わせは幾度としたものだいくどアレに勝る忍はいないとまで思わされる男だった

I have had many encounters with him, but he was a man who made it seem like there was no one who could match him.

DeepL seems to suggest that it is a subjective opinion than an objective truth which means that it may not necessarily be accurate.

And when Naruto's thinking of things he's been entrusted with that he needs to accomplish, Kakashi saying he can surpass Minato is one of the things he thinks of, implying he hasn't achieved that yet.

So no, PA SM Naruto is not stronger than Minato.

Going by your line of reasoning here, Naruto doesn't know of Minato's capabilities, him not surpassing Minato could be his own opinion which may not necessarily true..

Besides, that's nowhere near enough evidence as he could simply be thinking of the words from his beloved teachers and father since what invoked that memory was finding the answers not surpassing Minato.

2. While you could make a decent argument for PA SM Naruto>Minato, Base Ay~Minato completely falls flat and basically every piece of evidence other than this one vague statement contradicts it. And the statement itself is very questionable. For one, Cee is 26, and considering Naruto is 17 and Minato died when Naruto was born, that means he was like 7-8 years old when the 3rd War ended. There's very little chance he ever saw Minato in action, or that he was even a shinobi at the time.

You cannot definitively deny he never saw Minato in action either. Again, Cee stated that with full confidence if he was really lacking in knowledge and the author intended for him to not be knowledgeable, he wouldn't have said something like that. I give weight to Cee's statement because he was explicit in his words. If he had something like A4's the fastest shinobi ever or that no one is comparable to him, I wouldn't be making this argument. Your databook itself supports my position as it clearly calls him an intellectual person making the best use of his brain. So, he isn't talking out of his ass, that we can be sure.

And more importantly, he's specifically saying that Ay's nerve transmission and reaction speed are on par with Minato's, not his overall speed. This is a very clear distinction, much as you argue it isn't. Nerve transmission is just information being electrically sent through the membrane, which is not at all the speed at which you run or punch.

Nerve transmission directly relates to the speed as impulses are transmitted through the motor neurons which lead to the neuro-muscular junction and thus muscle contraction which results in movement. Your nerve transmission is a primary component of movement. Fast nerve transmission = Fast movement. I had explained this previously as well. There's no way around this. We simply lack knowledge of both their body physiology to determine if Minato gains some advantage due to his biology. If anything, A4 who has greater muscle mass would have more of a reason to assume his body is faster.

As for your debunk to the statement about him being the fastest since Minato died, it doesn't really debunk anything, as the person above me explained.

The statement being of the past is a valid explanation.

As I showed earlier in this comment, Ay considers Minato the greatest shinobi to ever live, meaning he's superior to himself. Even if you only think Minato was the fastest while he was alive, that's fine, cause the 3rd Raikage was alive when Minato was around, and the Edo 3rd Raikage fought KCM Naruto, who's much faster than Base Ay. You can also refer to a lot of the other things I mentioned in 1 that prove Minato being >Base Ay.

Again, the statement is not true in a full sense.

You'd also have to prove A4 has fought all out with A3 and is fully aware of his capabilities. Mind you, applying your logic here, A3 died after continuously fighting 10000 shinobi for 72 hours. This is more than enough for A3 to get amped in his last moments.

In addition, Base Tsunade scales to Base Ay in terms of speed, if not V1 Ay given that Ay thought she could help him against Naruto and Bee, and Tsunade thought she could hold Ay off.

Proof that A4 was going all out on his speed? I doubt he'd want to leave Tsunade behind. Besides, one could argue Tsunade has grown faster since the time the other Saanin were alive.

That was an A4 who was unaware of Naruto's capability, you and I both know that.

Another thing, Minato's Shunshin is faster than Tobirama's

This could easily mean FTG lol.

Shunshin being such a speed amp that it allows you to blitz people you're relative to in combat speed.

Tobirama is faster than Hashirama and Madara, so basically Minato's Shunshin is more than a blitz tier over the Founders. Yeah.......

Minato>>>>>Base Ay. As for the databook thing, it's true that the manga is primary canon, and takes precedence over the databook, but that's only if there's really a contradiction between the two. But there isn't. All the antistatements from the manga for Minato are made by characters whose knowledge on Minato is questionable/the statement itself is questionable

We have not been given any reason to assume those characters are unreliable. Again, this is a direct statement, I am not using any tangent here. So, we have no reason to doubt them.

(like Fukasaku saying SM Naruto>Minato, which can be reinterpreted to not contradict the databook, making the sources consistent with each other, which is better than just saying manga right, databook wrong, toss it out), while the databook is WoG and most of the instances where I've used it, it's been very clear in meaning.

Yes, I have already said this in our previous debate. Reinterpret the Databook, not the manga. You are taking Databook statements as direct as possible while twisting and outright dismissing manga statements. That's not acceptable. The Databook statement can be easily re-interpreted to mean that V1 A4's speed is comparable to Hokage Minato's Shunshin.

This resolves everything and my interpretation unlike yours doesn't declare C unreliable or make imaginary caveats to Fukasaku's statement. My interpretation would be the most straightforward and logically sound. Occum's razor.

3. Bee said that, yet he also said KCM Naruto is just like Jonin Minato twice. But even if we ignore that, it's basically fact that Hokage Minato is stronger than Bee's idea of Minato here. Ninja are stated to get stronger from fighting, training, and experience, so obviously over the course of the war and with training he'd get stronger.

You'd have to prove that there's any quantifiable difference at least there's no evidence of Minato getting drastically stronger. The safest bet would be to argue that he remained the same unless you can quantify the difference between the two since there is no direct statement or feats to ant relevant shinobi to scale off of.

Besides, all of Bee's statements was in reference to how Naruto was so alike to the Yellow flash now.

Besides that, Minato is stronger than Orochimaru.

This statement is from Anko who doesn't even say that the Fourth could decisively bring down Orochimaru. Furthermore, this was made before facing Orochimaru. So, they were unaware of the arsenal of jutsu and powers he had obtained through experimentation.

Who Sasuke didn't surpass until the Five Kage Summit (that's the last time Suigetsu saw Sasuke), meaning Orochimaru>Taka Sasuke.

Once again, going by your logic here Suigetsu could just be wrong or lack knowledge since we see that he's terrified of Orochimaru despite that statement.

We could also argue Suigetsu is talking of a far stronger Orochimaru who is known to enhance himself through experimentation.

But its baffling. Why are you so hell-bent on proving Orochimaru is stronger than Sasuke? I never contended that to my knowledge. You seem to have misinterpreted Bee's statement. Bee never claims Sasuke > Minato. All he says is that MS Sasuke was such a tough component that he could possibly compare to no.1 or no.2 of the toughest opponents he has fought. This statement can be at best used to cement relativity between the two ie. the gaps between their strength isn't massive which is why Bee felt they were comparable. Orochimaru can easily fit in this gap. So, taking that line of reasoning provides no contradiction to the set of evidence you have posted.

Even if I were to concede that there's a difference between Jonin and Hokage Minato (it was never shown, stated, or implied), it still wouldn't make much difference since Bee has a clear flashback on Hokage Minato with his Rasengan nonetheless which implies he has fought him or at least seen him fight.

Spoiler

In conclusion, Minato is the goat. SM Naruto victim? More like KCM2 Naruto rival.

Minato being anywhere close to KCM is contradictory to Minato believing mastering that power would allow him to defeat a potentially stronger Obito.

He said maybe, and that was only in reference to Jiraiya. In the Pain fight, he said it absolutely, and in reference to both Jiraiya and Minato.

Partially true and partially false. The initial statement by Fukasaku was in preponderance to Naruto surpassing Jiraya as a sage as he clearly cites the lack of toad features as reasoning. He said 'might' for he had yet to see SM Naruto do anything. The second statement however had no such reasoning and thus, was in general.

The context is very important as well. In the first statement, Naruto successfully could enter SM without toad oil, help and without frog-like features. So that statement being in relevance to SM makes sense. However, the second statement was made directly after we see Naruto manhandling Asura Path.

Spoiler

Note Gamabunta's statement in the last panel of the second scan. On the next page, Fukasaku affirms and then mentally notes that he has surpassed his predecessors. With this much context elaborated, still arguing that its exclusive to SM is disingenuous.

@Shadowbokunohero and @Deceived3596 , do you believe this is enough contextual evidence?

Not that I think Hokage Minato scales to 8th Gate Guy, but the Edo Hokage are weaker than their alive counterparts, and Hiruzen implies Edo Minato is relative to Alive Minato.

That's true however Tobirama wouldn't be aware of Minato's peculiar situation. Minato here had the unique opportunity to grow stronger post-death. So this Minato should canonically be stronger. But I don't see the 'alive-counterparts' bit in the scan. For most of the Hokage, their original power just happened to be one just prior to their death, Minato by virtue of being sealed with the Kyuubi had the ability to further that power.

Edo Hiruzen's statement is an expression. "...as...as ever." is used to denote normality. For Hiruzen, Minato being fast is not unusual but this doesn't mean he did not grow faster which wouldn't be unusual either since it's Hiruzen who claims the sealed and the sealer are bound to battle for eternity.

He doesn't really know how strong Orochimaru is. When he fought Prime Oro in the Forest of Death, Oro was hardly trying, and when he joined Orochimaru at the end of P1 and started training with him, he was already weakened. At best, you can say Hebi Sasuke>Non-Sick Armless Orochimaru.

But he has a vague idea of Itachi's strength and is well aware of how Orochimaru was too weak to get Itachi. He wouldn't have been confident in going after Itachi if he didn't feel atleast comparable to him which puts him above Orochimaru.

Spoiler

FTG being compared to Shunshin doesn't make sense. And why would both KCM1 and KCM2 be compared to FTG when it's the same speed? KCM1 being compared to Jonin Minato's Shunshin and KCM2 to Hokage's is more logical.

It's illogical. We don't have any precedence to believe there's any difference between Jonin and Hokage. Furthermore, the narrative parallel for KCM 1 is clearly FTG.

Spoiler

Everyone is making comparisons between Naruto and Minato based on how the latter is blitzing perceptions with his speed not unlike Minato's use of FTG which they cannot track. Kakashi mistaking Naruto for Minato was in direct relation to Hirashin as well as he was perception blitzed by Naruto's sudden new speed.

@GTsek was right, the Databook does imply his speed is thanks to Hirashin. This is the correct scan, yes GT?

Spoiler

The reason he sacrificed his life was to maintain the Bijuu balance, and because he knew Naruto was the child of prophecy.

The latter point sort of works against you. He entrusted Naruto the 9-tails hoping he could defeat a stronger Obito with it. Upsetting the Bijuu balance shouldn't be a greater concern than ridding him of himself when a person he believes to be Madara is out there that he, according to you, should be comparable to. However, granting Naruto the Kyuubi was under the belief that it would make Naruto decisively stronger than him and thereby Obito, that would make much more sense.

Another interpretation I can provide to Minato's statement is that he felt Obito grew stronger. Pain was such a powerful foe that he was able to force Naruto to go 1-tail short of the full Kyuubi. Since, Minato believed Obito was superior to Pain, he stated that he needed to master the Kyuubi to face this stronger Obito.

@Godernet , I apologize but I'll be focusing on Goku alone. I simply don't have the time nor the energy to address every single one of you.

@GokuSparkle , are you by any chance Alan Jia?

---

not necessarily, if it's holistic it can be referring to sage mode specifically. given that base naruto doesnt actually have any feats of his own nor scaling to suggest his on par with Minato

Yes.

That's essentially what I am saying, I think. Base Naruto isn't superior to Minato but the stat amps provided by SM do put him above. When posters generally mention 'as a sage', they talk about Naruto mastering SM to a better extent.

But I think I got into perspective a bit better. I was initially somewhat iffy on where exactly I want to scale him but I think now I got it.

Minato's base speed and reaction should be equal to Base Ay's.
Essentially the scaling should go somewhat like this.

V4 MS Sasuke = SM Naruto > Minato ~> Healthy Orochimaru > Taka Sasuke.

@Damage3245 , do you think this is fine?

My argumentation takes straightforward interpretations of the explicit manga statements and then has the databook sufficiently supplement it. No contradictions exist and excuses such as unreliable and not-knowledgeable without sufficient reasoning has not been applied. So, it should be valid.

 

[Godernet]

You are trying to scale a base Minato Edo, who is inferior to himself alive in his peak for Guy... Remember Tobirama's statement, he says that Orochimaru didn't have enough ability to bring them in their peak, so the Hokages were below their peak. Minato base in his peak couldn't blitz the teenage Obito and even said for Naruto that didn't see how he (Minato) could defeat Obito. You say that Kakashi and Lee also react to Juubidara only makes the outlier more clear. Any scale between top tier and god tiers is simply ridiculous...

Minato did outspeed Obito twice after using Flying Raijin to counter Kamui. He can't just blitz him normally because of Kamui's incredibly fast activation speed.

Six Paths Madara couldn't even blitz Kamui's activation speed for its intangibility.

Also Kakashi, Lee, and Minato reacting to Juubidara isn't one interaction, it's practically every interaction they have with him before Naruto and Sasuke come back.

• Sixth Gate Lee can grab Guy and move him out of the way the second before he gets hit by TSOs
• Both Kakashi and Lee can throw Kunai at relative speeds to Madara's TSO on two separate occasions.
• Obito with Kakashi's help makes his Kamui 2x as fast and can completely avoid Madara's TSO.
• Minato could again react and move before the TSO hit Guy and teleports away can before their effects even damage him.
• Obito could activate Kamui to protect himself before Juubidara could even touch him in extremely close proximity.

we'd have to assume an entire stretch of chapters are outliers if we're discrediting all of these.

And with the other Hokage reacting and landing hits on Juubito(who honestly should be relative in speed to Juubidara but that is a whole other topic) despite the obvious speed difference.

I'm not saying that they are the same speed as the god tiers but they can definitely react to their movements and attacks to an extent.

The Hokage, Juubito, and people on that tier of speed should honestly be Rel or Rel+ IMO but that's an argument for a different day.

 

[GTsek]

@GTsek was right, the Databook does imply his speed is thanks to Hirashin. This is the correct scan, yes GT?

Spoiler

Also, but there are two other scans, one from the 2nd Databook about hiraishin, and another from the 4nd Databook about Minato in general. I will send the translations that really matter:

Hiraishin, 2nd Databook:

•"刹那の閃光の如く時空間を翔破せん!!!!"

Translation: "Flight through space-time like a instantaneous flash!!!!"

•""瞬身"を超える「神速」!!"

Translation: A "God speed" that surpasses the "Shunshin"!!"

•"カカシを助けると同時に敵の足に見えて"術式”を施す。"

Translation: "At the same time as helping Kakashi, he leaves a 'jutsushiki' on the enemy's foot."

•""瞬身"とは比べるべくもない移動速度! その原理は「口寄せ、に似る｡"

Translation: "A movement speed that cannot be compared to 'Shunshin'! The principle is similar to 'summoning jutsu'."

Texto sobre o Minato, 4nd Databook:

•"眉目秀麗にして天賦の才閃き、紫電が如く、時空自在に翔け廻らん――。 二代目火影千手扉間が考案した時空間忍術 "飛雷神の術”を十全に扱い、師・自来せより忍としての矜持を学んだミナト。彼の功績は、約27年前の雲隠れによる「人柱力誘拐阻止」を皮切りに、第三次忍界大戦時、劣勢の木ノ葉陣営を勝利に導くなど枚挙に暇がない。全 忍随一の神速を誇る武勇の誉れは、他里の猛者をも魅了する!!!"

Translation: "A handsome man with a natural talent shining like purple lightning, he flies freely through space and time using the 'Hiraishin no Jutsu' a space-time ninjutsu created by the Second Hokage, Tobirama Senju. Minato, who learned the pride of a ninja from his teacher Jiraiya, has mastered this technique to the fullest. His achievements starting about 27 years ago with the "Jinchuuriki Kidnapping Prevention" by Kumogakure, and leading the disadvantaged Leaf team to victory in the Third Great Ninja War. He is renowned for his incredible god speed and bravery, which captivate even the elite opponents from other villages!!!"

As y'all can see, all of Minato's speed references are thanks to Hiraishin. Hiraishin was responsible for his "Yellow Flash" alias, the databook even mentions that Hiraishin is the secret to his "Ultra-High-Speed", and even mentions that the jutsu is superior to Shunshin, which leaves no doubt that the his fame comes from Hiraishin. And what proves my point, is the Statement in the 4th Databook, which mentions that he is praised in the world for his "god speed", and in the 2nd Databook Hiraishin is called "God speed surpassing Shunshin", that is, his "God speed" and his famous it's thanks to Hiraishin, not his physical speed.

Ay also thinks Minato is the finest shinobi to have ever lived, and the goat @Arc7Kuroi translated the raws, finding that the statement is referring to combat ability and not just strength of character like was argued in an old CRT. And if you're only gonna accept VIZ, that's fine, because Ay confirms that his statement is in context of power in the same page.

About the translation of Ay's statement,I ask y'all don't trust 100% on translation tools, they can bring a literal result, but they always ignore the context, not only the context of the series but also of the expressions. An example is the phrase: 眉目秀麗 (Bimoku Shurei) literally means "Beautiful eyebrows", because 眉目 (Bimoku) means eyebrows and 秀麗 (Shurei) means beautiful, however, when they are together to formulate a sentence, the meaning changes to if referring to the beauty of the face in general, it is an expression used to call someone beautiful, in particular, referring to the face, so the translation considering the expression and the context (in Minato's case, since it has the expression in one of the texts I sent about him) would be: "A handsome man". And there is also a problem in the interpretation of Ay's statement, he says:

•"手合わせは幾度としたものだアレに勝る忍はいないとまで思わされる男だった"

Translation: "We had many combats, and he was a man who made me think that there is no shinobi better than him"

In this context, the word "combat" is being used in the sense of a fight or competition. The expression "手合わせ" (teawase) in Japanese usually refers to a confrontation, training, or match in board games, martial arts, or sports. In the given sentence, the author is probably referring to a confrontation in some martial art or ninjutsu. So, for those who said that the statement is in the context of physical attributes or something like that, it's actually wrong, the expression is in the comprehensive sense of "confront", not necessarily physical, it could be in reference to a match in a game for example, it's a way of talking about a fight in general, for example: "I fight someone, and in that fight, we use spells on each other for hours, and then we fight a little hand-to-hand combat, and then we use more spells." So, I reduce all of this to the word: "Combat/Clash/Match/confront", because I'm talking about a general confrontation, not specifying whether it's hand-to-hand combat, spell fighting or even a board game/video game. Basically, Ay's statement is just that he's fight with Minato many times, and there's no indication that it's exclusively physical combat and that Minato somehow keeps up with Ay in physical speed. And about the second part, it's also wrong, Ay says that after fight with Minato many times, he himself (Ay) came to think that no one could beat Minato, that there was no one better than him (Minato). He doesn't confirm anything, is just a personal opinion, an impression he had due to the fact that he never defeated Minato. This impression of is the same as Minato had in relation to Obito, he feels that no one would be able to defeating Obito.

All scans are here:

 

[Shadow_Somnius]

Also, but there are two other scans, one from the 2nd Databook about hiraishin, and another from the 4nd Databook about Minato in general. I will send the translations that really matter:

Hiraishin, 2nd Databook:

•"刹那の閃光の如く時空間を翔破せん!!!!"

Translation: "Flight through space-time like a instantaneous flash!!!!"

•""瞬身"を超える「神速」!!"

Translation: A "God speed" that surpasses the "Shunshin"!!"

•"カカシを助けると同時に敵の足に見えて"術式”を施す。"

Translation: "At the same time as helping Kakashi, he leaves a 'jutsushiki' on the enemy's foot."

•""瞬身"とは比べるべくもない移動速度! その原理は「口寄せ、に似る｡"

Translation: "A movement speed that cannot be compared to 'Shunshin'! The principle is similar to 'summoning jutsu'."

Texto sobre o Minato, 4nd Databook:

•"眉目秀麗にして天賦の才閃き、紫電が如く、時空自在に翔け廻らん――。 二代目火影千手扉間が考案した時空間忍術 "飛雷神の術”を十全に扱い、師・自来せより忍としての矜持を学んだミナト。彼の功績は、約27年前の雲隠れによる「人柱力誘拐阻止」を皮切りに、第三次忍界大戦時、劣勢の木ノ葉陣営を勝利に導くなど枚挙に暇がない。全 忍随一の神速を誇る武勇の誉れは、他里の猛者をも魅了する!!!"

Translation: "A handsome man with a natural talent shining like purple lightning, he flies freely through space and time using the 'Hiraishin no Jutsu' a space-time ninjutsu created by the Second Hokage, Tobirama Senju. Minato, who learned the pride of a ninja from his teacher Jiraiya, has mastered this technique to the fullest. His achievements starting about 27 years ago with the "Jinchuuriki Kidnapping Prevention" by Kumogakure, and leading the disadvantaged Leaf team to victory in the Third Great Ninja War. He is renowned for his incredible god speed and bravery, which captivate even the elite opponents from other villages!!!"

As y'all can see, all of Minato's speed references are thanks to Hiraishin. Hiraishin was responsible for his "Yellow Flash" alias, the databook even mentions that Hiraishin is the secret to his "Ultra-High-Speed", and even mentions that the jutsu is superior to Shunshin, which leaves no doubt that the his fame comes from Hiraishin. And what proves my point, is the Statement in the 4th Databook, which mentions that he is praised in the world for his "god speed", and in the 2nd Databook Hiraishin is called "God speed surpassing Shunshin", that is, his "God speed" and his famous it's thanks to Hiraishin, not his physical speed.

About the translation of Ay's statement,I ask y'all don't trust 100% on translation tools, they can bring a literal result, but they always ignore the context, not only the context of the series but also of the expressions. An example is the phrase: 眉目秀麗 (Bimoku Shurei) literally means "Beautiful eyebrows", because 眉目 (Bimoku) means eyebrows and 秀麗 (Shurei) means beautiful, however, when they are together to formulate a sentence, the meaning changes to if referring to the beauty of the face in general, it is an expression used to call someone beautiful, in particular, referring to the face, so the translation considering the expression and the context (in Minato's case, since it has the expression in one of the texts I sent about him) would be: "A handsome man". And there is also a problem in the interpretation of Ay's statement, he says:

•"手合わせは幾度としたものだアレに勝る忍はいないとまで思わされる男だった"

Translation: "We had many combats, and he was a man who made me think that there is no shinobi better than him"

In this context, the word "combat" is being used in the sense of a fight or competition. The expression "手合わせ" (teawase) in Japanese usually refers to a confrontation, training, or match in board games, martial arts, or sports. In the given sentence, the author is probably referring to a confrontation in some martial art or ninjutsu. So, for those who said that the statement is in the context of physical attributes or something like that, it's actually wrong, the expression is in the comprehensive sense of "confront", not necessarily physical, it could be in reference to a match in a game for example, it's a way of talking about a fight in general, for example: "I fight someone, and in that fight, we use spells on each other for hours, and then we fight a little hand-to-hand combat, and then we use more spells." So, I reduce all of this to the word: "Combat/Clash/Match/confront", because I'm talking about a general confrontation, not specifying whether it's hand-to-hand combat, spell fighting or even a board game/video game. Basically, Ay's statement is just that he's fight with Minato many times, and there's no indication that it's exclusively physical combat and that Minato somehow keeps up with Ay in physical speed. And about the second part, it's also wrong, Ay says that after fight with Minato many times, he himself (Ay) came to think that no one could beat Minato, that there was no one better than him (Minato). He doesn't confirm anything, is just a personal opinion, an impression he had due to the fact that he never defeated Minato. This impression of is the same as Minato had in relation to Obito, he feels that no one would be able to defeating Obito.

All scans are here:

Thank you for your hardwork! That was truly enlightening. Would you mind if I add you to agree?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Base Minato is nowhere near KCm2's Rival what

That Version of Naruto would bury his corpse next to his wife