Nanatsu no Taizai: Conceptual Manipulation

[Faa_Tzy]

Intro

Life spirit is one of the highest hierarchical Spirits of all Spirits.

Feats

Life spirit argumentation is fundamental (concept/something abstract), and gets conceptual manip;

Spoiler

1. Life Spirits don't have shape and individuality (abstract).
2. As a font of energy that animates the entire races. Using hope for life, and despair for death.
3. As provide the essence for all living beings scattered throughout the world. By analogy to how Fire Spirit is the essence of every fire (within the fire), Wind Spirit is the essence of every wind (within the wind) wherever the wind blows.

Chaos must also scale with these evidences:

Spoiler

1. Life Spirit is shown to be part of the "Greater being". So far, Chaos is the highest entity because it created the NNT world, including living beings.
2. Chaos and Life spirit can possess a person, in other words, it must have a container if it wants to live physically.
3. Chaos is a will and has no physical form.
4. Chaos is the essence of contradiction. That is good-evil, light-darkness in humans. In the same way that the life spirit possesses one of the vessels (percival), the life spirit shouldn't exist (if it does, it is a contradiction).

Conclusion:

Life spirits: Conceptual Manipulation type-2 and Abstract existence type-1. (As the essence that propagates the concept of life and death)

Chaos: Likely/At least Conceptual Manipulation type-2 (a large part of Life spirits, also as the essence of contradiction i.e. good, evil, light, and darkness)

Arthur pendragon: Possibly Conceptual Manipulation type-2 (organizes and controls Chaos)

Notes: for Chaos, since the literal meaning of 'Greater being' has not been determined, I will include "Likely" or "At least". At best it will be Possible, but I won't use it here.

Agree: @speedster352 @Sasukesama0492(AE1) @Hyura @King_Gorilla4002-8922 @Vietthai96 @Zangnewbie
Disagree: @RaveeCPN @Barbar01 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @LephyrTheRevanchist
Neutral: @Sasukesama0492 (CM2)

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Shouldn't Chaos have some form of non-duality too?

 

[Faa_Tzy]

Shouldn't Chaos have some form of non-duality too?

I thought it was like that, but unfortunately I don't really understand non-duality.

But, what do you think about this post?

 

[speedster352]

Shouldn't Chaos have some form of non-duality too?

Try asking a staff member

I thought it was like that, but unfortunately I don't really understand non-duality.

But, what do you think about this post?

I agree with the op

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

But, what do you think about this post?

I think it makes sense, I don't know about the part about them "having no form or individuality" fits as abstract but them being the "essence" of these things should already fit the Wiki standards

 

[Faa_Tzy]

I think it makes sense, I don't know about the part about them "having no form or individuality" fits as abstract but them being the "essence" of these things should already fit the Wiki standards

Isn't there no shape other than abstract form?

Since it is clarified by being the essence, I think it is indeed an abstract...

 

[Faa_Tzy]

I agree with the op

I think it makes sense,

Thanks!

 

[Sasukesama0492]

Shouldn't Chaos have some form of non-duality too?

If you transcend life and death in quality, you have non-duality type 1

 

[speedster352]

If you transcend life and death in quality, you have non-duality type 1

Wouldn’t that just grant type 5 immortality.

Thanks!

Try tagging a staff member. If this is accepted then the DK and SD should get some form of NPI.

 

[Sasukesama0492]

Wouldn’t that just grant type 5 immortality.

Yes, but if you qualitatively transcend the Concept of Life and Death you have Nonduality Type 1

 

[Faa_Tzy]

Chaos essentially transcends death as well as life.

I believe in non-duality(although I'm not sure), but let's not talk about that here. Because I'm not talking about that topic.

Wouldn’t that just grant type 5 immortality.

Try tagging a staff member. If this is accepted then the DK and SD should get some form of NPI.

I'll try it later.

 

[Sasukesama0492]

Chaos essentially transcends death as well as life.

I believe in non-duality(although I'm not sure), but let's not talk about that here. Because I'm not talking about that topic.

transcending life and death gives you immortality type 5, but qualitatively transcending conceptual life and death (concept of life and death) gives you ND1

 

[CodeCCLL]

transcending life and death gives you immortality type 5, but qualitatively transcending conceptual life and death (concept of life and death) gives you ND1

On the other hand, characters with transduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding while also possessing qualitative superiority to them.

No, for Transduality you need "qualitative superiority". Statements such as being independent from the duality of "Life" and "Death" are sufficient for Nonduality Type 1.

 

[VoidGoji]

If you transcend life and death in quality, you have non-duality type 1

Thats type 5 immortality, not ND

 

[Faa_Tzy]

Can Non-duality be stopped?

Instead of you guys discussing non-duality, can you also give an opinion on my post? I've also just gotten a little feedback.

 

[Hyura]

Shouldn't Chaos have some form of non-duality too?

Nope , it does not meet the qualifying standard of duality

 

[Hyura]

Looks good for me actually , im understand now why Life Spirit also get Abstract Existence Type 1 . I agree

 

[MeliodasDeUzyy]

I agree with OP

 

[Faa_Tzy]

Looks good for me actually , im understand now why Life Spirit also get Abstract Existence Type 1 . I agree

Thanks!

I agree with OP

Thanks!

 

[RaveeCPN]

I disagree. Being the essence of something does not make you a concept on its own.

Essence by definition means the basic or most important idea or quality of something. Concepts, on the other hand, represent abstract ideas about that thing, such as a description of what it is, its shape, etc. I guess I can say they are more or less like universals.

Besides, we don't even have any details about the meaning of "being their essence" in the context. So, I don't think its right to assume out of nothing that "being the essence of X" means "being the concept of X".

 

[Sasukesama0492]

I agree with AE 1, currently neutral on Conceptual Manip

 

[MeliodasDeUzyy]

I disagree. Being the essence of something does not make you a concept on its own.

Essence by definition means the basic or most important idea or quality of something. Concepts, on the other hand, represent abstract ideas about that thing, such as a description of what it is, its shape, etc.

Besides, we don't even have any details about the meaning of "being their essence" in the context. So, I don't think its right to assume out of nothing that "being the essence of X" means "being the concept of X".

Delete

 

[Barbar01]

disagree FRA

 

[Faa_Tzy]

I disagree. Being the essence of something does not make you a concept on its own.

Essence by definition means the basic or most important idea or quality of something. Concepts, on the other hand, represent abstract ideas about that thing, such as a description of what it is, its shape, etc. I guess I can say they are more or less like universals.

They are not just essence, having also been described as spreading death and life.

But could it be that essence is attributed as a concept to an object? Life spirit has also been shown to represent all living beings as the essence within each living being. This analogy is already a concept, isn't it? The essence of life spirit shows that it exists within every living being, and also works to spread the concept of life (through hope) and also death (despair).

3. As the essence for all living beings scattered throughout the world. By analogy to how Fire Spirit is the essence of every fire (within the fire), Wind Spirit is the essence of every wind (within the wind) wherever the wind blows.

Every concept must also represent every object it is based on. And this analogy has been explained by King, that every Spirits of Elementals and Life spirits present their objects in reality, namely elementals and living beings.


Is this still not possible?

Besides, we don't even have any details about the meaning of "being their essence" in the context. So, I don't think its right to assume out of nothing that "being the essence of X" means "being the concept of X".

I'm a little confused, is this for Chaos or all of them?

 

[RaveeCPN]

But could it be that essence is attributed as a concept to an object? Life spirit has also been shown to represent all living beings as the essence within each living being. This analogy is already a concept, isn't it? The essence of life spirit shows that it exists within every living being, and also works to spread the concept of life (through hope) and also death (despair).

I don't think so. The Life Spirits are just acting like an energy that raises them. A simple life energy. It's not something that carries that much importance, especially to prove that something is a concept.

Every concept must also represent every object it is based on. And this analogy has been explained by King, that every Spirits of Elementals and Life spirits present their objects in reality, namely elementals and living beings.

I understand where you are coming from, but it says nothing more than "what gives them life exists where that to which they give life exists", just as Fire Spirits exist where Fire exists. It's not like they're instantiating Life Spirits.

I'm a little confused, is this for Chaos or all of them?

The latter

 

[Vietthai96]

Every concept must also represent every object it is based on. And this analogy has been explained by King, that every Spirits of Elementals and Life spirits present their objects in reality, namely elementals and living beings.

Eh no, concept do not represent the object, it is the object that represent the concept it is based on, as concept shape and define what aspect in physical reality

 

[Shamangel]

this is really interesting AP looks right.

 

[Estarossa0z]

interesting

 

[Faa_Tzy]

I don't think so. The Life Spirits are just acting like an energy that raises them. A simple life energy. It's not something that carries that much importance, especially to prove that something is a concept.

I understand that it's just spreading life energy. Actually, I interpreted Life spirits as a concept because it is both abstract and fundamental to every living thing. So, at least I also use the criteria that is shown as a concept / like something that is fundamental.

I was also wrong to show Life Spirits as a concept, because the entity is not declared a concept. But I was thinking, since Life Spirits spread death and life (doesn't this indicate the concept of death and life) this would be CM 2?

I understand where you are coming from, but it says nothing more than "what gives them life exists where that to which they give life exists", just as Fire Spirits exist where Fire exists. It's not like they're instantiating Life Spirits.

I'm a little unclear on this. They (Spirits) are not instantiating Life Spirits. Because all Spirits are the same (because they are Spirits), the difference is that Life Spirits are higher in hierarchy.

The latter

In the part of being their essence (good, evil, light, darkness) right? If so, I'm not putting this on CM anyway...

Eh no, concept do not represent the object, it is the object that represent the concept it is based on, as concept shape and define what aspect in physical reality

Uh, maybe I misinterpreted about Conceptual what about proof number 3? Doesn't that prove that every living thing represents life or the existence of death, because of the life essence of the spirit itself?

 

[RaveeCPN]

But I was thinking, since Life Spirits spread death and life (doesn't this indicate the concept of death and life) this would be CM 2?

I don't think so. This seems to be a simple life and death manipulation. Or maybe not even those, depending on the context ig.

I'm a little unclear on this. They (Spirits) are not instantiating Life Spirits. Because all Spirits are the same (because they are Spirits), the difference is that Life Spirits are higher in hierarchy.

What I meant by "they" was what the Life Spirits are concepts of. For example, if you take Fire Spirits as the concept of fire, what I mean by "they" would be the fires that exist. But I was trying to say that this was not the case, that the fires are not instantiating the Fire Spirits. Which proves that Life Spirits are not concepts.

In the part of being their essence (good, evil, light, darkness) right? If so, I'm not putting this on CM anyway...

Neither Chaos is their essence, nor they're are concepts.

Of all the races, humans possess the most extremes of both good and evil - light and darkness - within their nature. Their existence is the essence of contradiction. And contradiction is also a form of chaos... in other words...

Chaos is not their essence. They're the essence of contradiction and contradiction is a form of Chaos. There's a difference between the two.

 

[Vietthai96]

Uh, maybe I misinterpreted about Conceptual what about proof number 3? Doesn't that prove that every living thing represents life or the existence of death, because of the life essence of the spirit itself?

Not really, while you can stretch it to conceptual, it isn't, unless the spirits in question is abstract ideas. Being simply essence of something don't make it conceptual, for example, photon is essence of light, doesn't make photon conceptual

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I disagree. Being the essence of something does not make you a concept on its own.

Essence by definition means the basic or most important idea or quality of something. Concepts, on the other hand, represent abstract ideas about that thing, such as a description of what it is, its shape, etc. I guess I can say they are more or less like universals.

Besides, we don't even have any details about the meaning of "being their essence" in the context. So, I don't think its right to assume out of nothing that "being the essence of X" means "being the concept of X".

Wouldn't this be information type 2 then? Since they provide the fundamental essence of these objects to them?

 

[PrinceofPein]

disagree fra

 

[Vietthai96]

Fundamental essence is a word that have extreme broad meaning, no offend but i don't understand the reason why people just nitpick this word to think it is either concept or fundamental information, it could help for sure, but not the main thing to gain concept or information type 2 hax

 

[RaveeCPN]

Wouldn't this be information type 2 then?

I'm not exactly sure on that. I feel like being their "essence" comes from the fact that they are just the life energies needed for their existence rather than being their fundamental information. IMO, at least.

 

[Vietthai96]

On a side note, there actually was an attempt to creates Essence Manipulation to cover these kind of ability that dealing with essence which is not neccessary be fundamental concepts or informations

 

[Faa_Tzy]

I don't think so. This seems to be a simple life and death manipulation. Or maybe not even those, depending on the context ig.

What I meant by "they" was what the Life Spirits are concepts of. For example, if you take Fire Spirits as the concept of fire, what I mean by "they" would be the fires that exist. But I was trying to say that this was not the case, that the fires are not instantiating the Fire Spirits. Which proves that Life Spirits are not concepts.

Hmmz, Maybe I'll try to understand it further, and for now I accept it. Thanks for the correction on this part

Neither Chaos is their essence, nor they're are concepts.

Chaos is not their essence. They're the essence of contradiction and contradiction is a form of Chaos. There's a difference between the two.

Chaos belongs to the essence of their contradictions. The 4 properties constitute the essence of contradiction, and the essence of contradiction is the form of Chaos. This indicates that good, evil, darkness, and light are all forms of Chaos as well. Chaos has also been expressed as pure and impure as darkness and light.

Btw, I'd like to discuss this scene in raw form.
"すべてを 育む源さ" "It's the source that nurtures everything."

It should also be the context here, it will be the same as the one above

It states Life Spirits as the source of all things, which means all living things in NNT are nourished by Life Spirits. But since the context emphasizes life and death, I think this refers to Life Spirits being the source of life and death for everything (in my wank mind this refers to the source creating the concept of death and life by propagating it), but what do you think?

Not really, while you can stretch it to conceptual, it isn't, unless the spirits in question is abstract ideas. Being simply essence of something don't make it conceptual, for example, photon is essence of light, doesn't make photon conceptual

Life spirits have no shape, nor are they the essence of everything. Isn't that abstract?

On a side note, there actually was an attempt to creates Essence Manipulation to cover these kind of ability that dealing with essence which is not neccessary be fundamental concepts or informations

In the form of essence but getting hax like CM, without mentioning the existence of a concept statement? How?

Then, what are the overall abilities that are suitable for Life Spirits to acquire?

 

[Vietthai96]

In the form of essence but getting hax like CM, without mentioning the existence of a concept statement? How?

You don't need to namedrop, as long as you can prove something is abstract and it define something in physical reality, changing it change the corresponding aspect in physical reality, or the entire reality itself is enough. However, being called essence didn't mean abstract, like i said, essence is a word with broad meaning

In case you wonder, information type 2 is the same, as long as you have something that is interchangable with information and it shape, define physical reality, then it is qualify. Being called essence isn't though, as it cover a large area of meaning

Then, what are the overall abilities that are suitable for Life Spirits to acquire?

Hmm, well, life manipulation, eh, energy manipulation since it did say thing about energy, that all

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

I think people didn't open the scans, which isn't a problem, I did exactly the opposite, I opened the scans and didn't see what the OP had written

scan 3 says that the spirits "provide essence" not that they "are the essence" that is, the word essence here is not of a fundamental aspect/building block but rather of meaning/central idea/meaning this makes more sense with the other scans
For example this statement:
WE LIFE SPIRITS USE THE HOPES OF OTHERS TO SPREAD LIFE......BUT WE ALSO USE THEIR DESPAIR TO SPREAD DEATH.
this
Here he explains how his way of giving "essence" works, to give "idea/meaning" to life they spread hope while there is life and despair when there is death

Another point that supports the interpretation that essence = idea in NNT is this scan where Merlin says:

OF TALL THE RACES, HUMANS POSSESS THE MOST EXTREMES OF BOTH GOOD AND EVIL LIGHT AND DARKNESS WITHIN THEIR NATURE. THEIR EXISTENCE IS THE ESSENCE OF CONTRADICTION.

being the essence of "good, evil and contradictions" prove that essence = idea in the context of NNT because these things are not physical and do not need building blocks and exist purely on a plane of ideas

This is my interpretation of essences in NNT , and as spirits are giving essence with their existence on a universal scale they should fit very well as type 2 concepts

 

[Vietthai96]

i going to repeat, being essence =/= being conceptual

OF TALL THE RACES, HUMANS POSSESS THE MOST EXTREMES OF BOTH GOOD AND EVIL LIGHT AND DARKNESS WITHIN THEIR NATURE

this, didn't mean anything, like, to be real here, this kind of statements is almost everywhere in fiction, just another way saying human can both be good and evil within their capabilities, like, very very common

THEIR EXISTENCE IS THE ESSENCE OF CONTRADICTION.

practically this go against the notion of concept, literally the verse said human are the essence of contradiction, concept is abstract ideas that define something in physical reality, this statement is completely opposite of how concept should work, somehow human being the essence of contradiction, unless you want to claim human themselves are concepts, that is if you go with your logic that essence = concepts

also, this statement is just kind of an conclusion on how human nature is a contradiction, as they can be both good and evil

Sure, no offend, you interpreting these things as concepts is your way, doesn't mean everyone need to interpreting the same way as you