My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic Revision Thread Part 3

[Lightbuster30]

It was before I realized the bombs didn't display any magic neggng properties until after they exploded and informed everyone. Afterwards clashing with the staff became a supporting feat. She doesn't fully scale to the staff since she lost, but it's nothing a 6-B could dream of doing. It's an auxiliary feat now.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Chrysalis has never shown to be physically impressive compared to her magic. And if her attack was a physical one, why did the green magic course through the whole shield and crack and break it?

I'm not saying that this time. My argument is that the shield held up well enough that Twilight herself wasn't hurt. I'm sure that if, I don't know, Full Power Tirek fired an energy beam at Twilight, it would just dsintegrate the shield and her. But Sombra didn't do that, because they're not THAT far apart in terms of power.

That was very rough, and that was when I was assuming Twilight was as strong as the others. If we're talking with a 4x Celestia sum, then I'm pretty sure Discord would be more like 1.8 or 1.9x Celestia level. Sure, he was shocked by the betrayal, but he still had time to prepare. And if he was stronged enough, he could've just broken out of Tirek's grasp. Tirek honestly made Discord look like a chump in that scene. He sure seemed more powerful to me.

They're different. That's obvious. But their function is pretty similar. It's creating a tear in space and sending things through it. I doubt the difficulty is that much higher than that of teleportation.

You would think that would make it harder. And that doesn't matter. The elements were weaker than the pony of shadows and so didn't work fully against him. A tiny amount of the elements' trace magic is not enough to control enough chaos magic to control the whole universe. Also, Tirek said no creature could control it. He didn't say he couldn't control it in his current state or anything. I'm pretty sure he knew the bell worked differently than his magic through the book. That makes way more sense.

 

[Pikachu942]

I agree with GokuSparkle on a couple of his points, mainly that I think Twilight wasn't THAT far from Sombra's power (though still clearly below), and that Tirek was comparable or slightly stronger than Discord in their encounter in the S4 Finale, and that Discord was more 1.75x Celestia or so. I also think when you watch Twilight vs. Tirek, it's clear Twilight has the slight advantage, as Twilight seems more enraged than injured throughout the fight and Tirek clearly gets hurt, including being buried under rubble by the end while Twilight was fine. I think they were close, but Twilight had the edge, and Tirek saw this and decided to make the plan for the deal as he would lose if they kept fighting. The other stuff I don't really have an opinion on I don't think.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Fine. Then I fall back on my "she showed no signs of exertion" argument, because she didn't show any of them. Why are you even arguing against it being casual in the first place when you yourself called it casual in an earlier comment?

Firstly: It's a preemptive argument in case someone tries arguing it again. Secondly: Full power Tirek? Like Tirek with literally all magic in Equestria or Tirek with Grogar's magic? I'm sorry, but I'm not entirely sure who you're talking about here? The wording is kinda confusing me. If it's the first one....then yeah no shit. Why is that relevant to someone vastly weaker like Sombra? And yeah, Sombra was low diffing Twilight before The Magic of Friendship saved her. He popped her shield nigh instantly and blasted her back even after most of his magic disperced itself into the shield. That's a greater strength gap than you realize. Doesn't help that he had a sly smile on his face the whole time implying he's not using all his power, and only got serious near the end of their bout (You can see it as his facial expression changes).

And that's blatantly wrong since we know Discord is physically much stronger than the princesses. The idea of someone like Sombra being strong enough to hurt him is a complete joke to him, and it is. He quite literally had to feign being injured because Sombra was too weak. Of course if we really wanna compare: It took longer for Grogar's bell to absorb Discord's magic than it did to absorb the princesses combined magic. Don't believe me? 7 seconds. Thats how long it took for Discord to lose all of his magic. The princesses? 5 seconds. 2x is a lowball if anything and certainly much more grounded than your suggestion in light of everything I've seen.

First off: How do you even know if teleportation is spatial based? Not all teleportation just zips you through space. Secondly, even if it is: Why the hell does no one use it? And don't even start with the: Anyone can use it if they're strong enough, argument again. That's entirely on you to prove.

You say it's not enough, and yet that's exactly what we got. You saying "no it doesn't" doesn't change what happened on screen. Chaos magic pretty obviously messes with your mind if Pinkie is any indication. That Tirek was able to even have it on him without i'll effects implies a degree of control. All he did was read the instruction manual. He isn't going to focus on any details like: "It absorbs magic differently than normal". He's interested in one thing and one thing only: Using the Bell.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Oh, and something else I forgot to respond to in your comment:

GokuSparkle wroteSure, he was shocked by the betrayal, but he still had time to prepare. And if he was stronged enough, he could've just broken out of Tirek's grasp. Tirek honestly made Discord look like a chump in that scene. He sure seemed more powerful to me.
I found this interesting tidbit that serves as an practically tailor made argument for this one (With a few edits made since it was a different conversation).

"I will point out that processing such turns of events and coming up the appropriate counter to them is slower and longer than you think. With the advantage of hind-sight, yes, the response to just HEARING Tirek voice his betrayal and FEELING himself being picked up combined with his knowledge of what Tirek is able to do is to Panic Button whatever contingency he (should have) had and committed to, what in space combat sims, would be called a 'Random Jump'.

But as Discord has shown, he's an overconfident and rather poor planner of complex events or contingencies. He was so confident that Tirek was otherwise incapable of betraying or having the capacity to do anything to him that he obviously didn't entertain the idea that he had been double crossed. So he doesn't HAVE a response in his mind to fall back on in the short window of time he has to react. He's caught flat-footed.

In case you're wondering: That's called an ambush. Those things kill people who are fully prepared for them. Discord was NOT prepared. Between thinking that Tirek wouldn't betray him; fully trusting him, being overconfident in his overwhelming power if he did, and unaware of Tireks actual power, he didn't even START to react correctly until after it was over.

Discord also shows elsewhere that he's really poor at reacting to his plans coming apart. Getting stoned again in The Return of Harmony proves that nicely. When he notices the elements are spitting out little magic bolts instead of sitting around inert like they had before, he just kind of stares dumbfounded until the things spool up and blast him."

 

[Bowser-us]

why is Discord has toon force? I thought all he does is reality warping / chaos manipulation

 

[Lightbuster30]

If we go by that logic, then none of Discord's powers are legit because he uses reality warping to accomplish them. But reality warping based fire manipulation is still fire manipulation, stretching your body via reality warping is still the ability to stretch, reality warping powered shapeshifting is still shapeshifting, etc. The source of the ability doesn't matter.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

She wasn't concentrating hard or anything like Twilight was during her beam struggle with Sombra, but characters have consistently been able to use strong attacks relative to them in a short amount of time.

The first one. My point is that if Sombra is multiple times stronger than Twilight than his blast would've just ripped past the shield like it wasn't even there and hit her.

I really don't think that's how the bell absorption works. It just took the amount it did to fit the scene. The camera did need to pan to show Grogar's shadow as he transformed. Also, it took way less than 7 seconds for Chaos Cozy to be absorbed, so that shows there's really no correlation between power and how long it takes for you to be absorbed.

I mean, teleportation is an advanced spell, so it's not surprising that no one uses it. Also, Cozy could use it, and nothing implies she has some special powers beyond just a lot of magic. Anyways, what's your argument with Tirek again? That he absorbed some strong unicorn and that's how he's able to create portals?

That was with the same source that Tirek said no creature could control it from. So that makes sense. Also, Tirek is a smart guy. He seems like the type who would read for details like that. Also, you say that's what we got, but the much simpler reason is just that the bell works differently.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yeah, he doesn't plan well, but that doesn't mean he can't do anything when he's not prepared. And he definitely started to react before Tirek absorbed him. He had the initial response time when Tirek said "who said anything about us?" Then he got picked up, then Tirek gave a whole speech, at which point Discord looked back regretfully, That was literally over 10 seconds at which point he could've done something. If the space was only a few seconds, I could get it, but Discord didn't look that shocked past the first few seconds. He just wasn't strong enough to do anything.

The Return of Harmony is a case of M.A. Larson's rushed endings. I really don't think it's a stretch to say in-character Discord would've snapped his fingers and teleported away. Unless the bolts somehow trapped/immobilized him (complete headcanon, no need to respond).

 

[MinatoSparkle]

If we go by that logic, then none of Discord's powers are legit because he uses reality warping to accomplish them. But reality warping based fire manipulation is still fire manipulation, stretching your body via reality warping is still the ability to stretch, reality warping powered shapeshifting is still shapeshifting, etc. The source of the ability doesn't matter.

I think the question is when did Discord display an example of toon force.

 

[Lightbuster30]

No they haven't. They've never been able to use strong attacks relative to them in short timeframes. Any powerful blast has always taken more than a second to charge, not like the common: Point and shoot, the away Chrysalis did; or rather: Coated hooves in magic and planted them on the shield.

You're overestimating how big a 3 times gap is. It's not nearly enough to do something like that, although the fact that he blasted her shield and still knocked her backwards with the leftover energy implies the gap is definitely not 2-3 times.

Bad argument considering she was willingly giving the magic back to the Bell and wanted it gone. Oh and "took as long as needed to fill the screen-time" is pure headcanon. You can't prove the scene was slowed down and it isn't an acceptable argument. It's a fair argument to use for laser beam speed since no one in their right minds would argue for subsonic lasers when they can fire at the moon in short time frames, but not for this.

So advanced that Sweetie Bell can teleport as an magically grown adult. It's a mid tier spell at best seeing as neither Sweetie nor Trixie have full mastery despite using it. Oh, and Cozy is a stupid argument considering she has experience with portal based magic; taught by a person who knows a portal spell himself no less. Or, ya know, the fact that she's highly intelligent? The fact that she can do portal magic means she's smart enough to do it in the first place. Cozy does not serve as an example for your claim. She's either A: Justified in knowing how to do portal magic. Or B: Is an exception and not the rule since few bother using them and is thus contradictory with what we've seen. The burden of proof still rests on you.

So what makes sense? "He seems like a smart guy" isn't justifiable enough to assume he's going to focus on reading the details in a book. Yet again: This is on you to prove. Funnily enough, not only is there no proof Tirek would pay attention to the "fine print", (Calling it that for the sake of simplicity) but there's no evidence for this "fine print" existing in the book to begin with, So you not only have to prove Tirek is paying attention to this information in the book, but you need to prove the book even has that information to begin with. All the book does is tell you how to operate the Bell. Nothing in there about overly specific mechanics like absorbing magic differently and if there's no evidence for it beyond speculation, I'm not interested in hearing it.

Your point completely falls on it's face when you realize; in the very series finale, Discord had nearly as long; if not longer, to think himself back into Discord as soon as Chrysalis webbed him and as soon as he saw the bell. More evidence of Discord reacting to situations poorly. This also simutaneously debunks your argument against M.A. Larson seeing as it makes things consistient with what we saw in "Twilight's Kingdom" and the series finale. Then again, "death of the author" is always not a good argument to make.

 

[Bowser-us]

I think the question is when did Discord display an example of toon force.

We know that Discord has a reality warping, right? Based on this, we can't give him toon force, because his powers comes from chaos/reality manipulation

 

[CinnabarManx421]

We know that Discord has a reality warping, right? Based on this, we can't give him toon force, because his powers comes from chaos/reality manipulation

Characters can have both RW and Toon Force you know. Plus Discord's RW is more akin to Toon Force anyway since he uses it in a funny way, which is literally the definition of TF.

 

[Js250476]

If you want another example of it. Look no further then our favorite Fifth Dimensional being

 

[Bowser-us]

Ok i get it

 

[EMagoIorSouI]

Sooooo, I just found out about a 4-A character in the show. The Tantabus is a bit of an oddball, but it apparently can create numerous stars in the skies of a dream simply by using its powers and can form rips in these dreams. There's also the fact that it is completely composed of stars itself.

Is this considered 4-A or not? Just asking in advance because I'm currently making a page for the Tantabus.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Not necessarily true. In most fights between two magical users, the characters rarely charge up for more than a second. Also, again, the coated hooves thing hasn't been used any other time, so you can't say how powerful it is relative to her.

Are you saying it's more or less than that?

Why would that change things? The bell can take any creature's magic equally, regardless of whether they're willing or not. Bad reasoning. And Discord being 3.5x stronger than Celestia is way more unreasonable than just assuming cinematic timing.

That was a weird moment. Maybe it's because it magically grew her it also enhanced her magic beyond how powerful she would normally be. Or she has latent magical talent that wouldn't sprout until adulthood. And it's not a mid tier spell, as Twilight, literally the top student of the strongest pony in Equestria at the time, wasn't able to teleport easily at first. You could say it's a low high tier spell, but definitely not mid tier. And Trixie's talent has never been made completely clear. It could be an affinity for magic for all we know, if to a lesser extent than Twilight's. And before I respond to your Cozy argument, I'm gonna ask again, what is your ultimate point in this portion of the argument?

It makes sense that it made Pinkie go crazy. Tirek is the kind of villain who would want to make sure nothing goes wrong in their plan. He even said Grogar being gone for a long time gave him enough time to prepare the next part of their plan, and why would he have needed a long time if he was just gonna skim the book to look for the main stuff? And as for your point of the possibility of the info not even being in the book to begin with, I'm pretty sure that a book about using the bell to absorb and give magic would talk about how absorbing and giving magic works. That's just common sense. And what else would there be? There's literally 2 pages dedicated to showing the spell for using the bell in a book of what looks to be hundreds of pages. If it was a really small book, I could believe that the info doesn't exist, but info about how the bell absorbs magic would seem to be one of the most important things to put in this large book besides the obvious. So I'm 120% sure some info on how the bell works in terms of absorbing and giving magic exists there.

His limbs were trapped under an enhanced webbing spell, so he couldn't snap or do whatever thing he needed to to revert/get away.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Yeah, that's part of the whole point. Stronger attacks have always needed to be charged longer. No one cares if they're rarely used, that isn't the argument. The argument is: Less casual, more powerful attacks, always take longer to charge and the wielder shows exertion always. There's never not a scene where someone casts a spell above their AP without effort.

More, for a variety of factors that I'm in no mood to continuously repeat. I've stated these factors already.

You mean aside from the fact that they would put up less resistance and thus make it easier for the Bell to take their magic? We visibly see Celestia and Luna struggle to hold on to their magic. Anytime the bell took magic nonconsensually, it took longer. Anytime it was done willingly, it took less time. If Celestia and Luna double their power and it took 7 seconds for Discord to their 5 then he'd only be 2.8x their power. Pretty consistent with Discord thinking his magic more important and powerful than Grogar's. And no don't bring me that: "But he got overpowered by Grogar's Bell" slop. The Bell contained Grogar's magic. Yeah, the dude used it, but he still had his own personal magic. It probably got stuck in his bell because Gusty used it on him after stealing the bell in the first place. Long story short, this argument ignores that the magic the trio got from the bell is not what overpowered Discord and stole his magic.

What's next, are we gonna argue Big Macintosh can only tow houses because a magic love potion enhanced his strength? I sound like a broken record by this point, but you need to prove the magic growth affected her magic. Twilight mastered it easily enough and even in 1st season episodes had far better control over it than Sweetie and Trixie combined. It's a mid tier spell. Nope, Trixie explicitly specializes in illusions. She has some skill in magic, but that's it. There's more evidence for it being a mid tier than a high tier spell. I can't ******* remember the main damned point. Maybe if people would stop using pedantic arguments like "magic growth spurts altered her magic" or "you can cast any spell with enough power" I wouldn't be forced to bury my main point arguing against all these other points.

No it doesn't? Wait, why the **** are we even arguing this? The entire point of your argument amounts to Tirek only being able to absorb strength only he specifically says no one can handle Discord's chaos magic. He clearly means that no one "in general" can handle chaos magic and not that "his absorption doesn't work that way". Oh, and for the record: It's not uncommon for important information can be constrained to a page or so out of hundreds in My Little Pony. And you're arguments for Tirek being competent enough to read the fine print still have not satisfied the burden of proof.

.....

Let's go back to what I said:

Your point completely falls on it's face when you realize; in the very series finale, Discord had nearly as long; if not longer to think himself back into Discord as soon as Chrysalis webbed him and as soon as he saw the bell.

It's a good thing he can think his reality warping into action and has thunk himself into different forms and shapes so, so many times. Really? We're implying Chrysalis is stronger than Discord? We're arguing Starlight ******* Glimmer is stronger than Discord? Because these are the things we're arguing for if you think Discord is too weak to break out of her webbing, enhanced or not.

 

[Pikachu942]

The webbing is clearly PiS, and shouldn't be used for scaling. Base Chrysalis is certainly not close to Discord, and Starlight Glimmer, while Alicorn level, is def not Discord level either.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Point being: Discord tends to consistently leave himself wide open when his plans come apart even with several seconds of reactionary time. Although, technically we're talking about Bell enhanced Chrysalis.

 

[Pikachu942]

Oh right she was bell-enhanced by then. Still, though, I don't think it can be used for proper scaling. Bell-enhanced Chrysalis was still struggling with Starlight (which does make sense as Starlight is roughly Alicorn level) and beat her with high difficulty, and Starlight is most certainly not Discord level.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Well again, I know it's not good scaling. I'm not trying to scale her. It's just GokuSparkle pointed out Discord couldn't break free and I was pointing out how ludicrous that was.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Obviously, but I'm saying Chrysalis' regular AP is greater than Twilight's shield durability.

Yeah...no. She's almost as strong as Starswirl, who is clearly well above the other unicorns who helped to raise the sun.

Why should the bell care? It can steal ANY creature's magic. Why should resistance matter if the bell's draining can't be stopped? I know I myself said they're different, but it's like saying Tirek would be slower at draining a pony's magic if they resisted. The bell's max draining capability should be far greater than Tirek's, so it should be even easier. Also, I think it's possible to interpret the princesses' heads turning back as just reacting in pain or discomfort. And it's easy to assume it was quicker when done consensually because those moments weren't meant to be dramatic. And this is backed up by Pinkie easily being absorbed by Discord even though she wasn't willing. Discord is not 2.8x stronger than the princesses either. That doesn't make sense with the scaling. And saying him being absorbed was the worst thing was very obviously humour. How would Discord even know how powerful the magic was anyways? He didn't directly confront any of them, and the only time he interacted directly with their power, his feet were trapped under Chrysalis' magic. Sure, you could call that an outlier, but it definitely wouldn't make Discord think his magic is more important than Grogar's. He's just very cocky.

Then it's because Sweetie has talent. And she didn't master it easily enough. She was an experienced magician by the time the show started and she still took a few seconds to charge up a teleportation. And she wasn't better than Sweetie because Sweetie didn't burn the pony she teleported while Twilight teleporting her and Spike did burn him. And if you don't know what you're arguing for, why are you trying so hard to prove your point?

But he was able to absorb Discord in fourth form. And yeah, important info only being on a few pages is an mlp thing...when the book is about a lot of things, like a spell book. But this is a book literally dedicated to the bell and only the bell. I don't need to prove the info is there when it obviously is. You need to prove it isn't there, because that's what's unlikely. And you can't say again that Tirek just wouldn't read it, because again, he said it took a lot of time to prepare the next part of their plan. He must've thoroughly read through the book before agreeing to perform the spell to make sure there weren't any downsides or something else like that.

He is in a different form, and didn't want to reveal himself, and by the time he realized the situation was dire it was too late. Or alternatively, his reality warping doesn't work when he's done a full transformation, and he needs to do a spell to revert himself, which he couldn't do with his hooves caught. And Discord hasn't ever showed himself as that physically impressive, so maybe he just really couldn't break free. Also, the Starlight thing doesn't work because Starlight throughout the fight was shown as only being able to fight for so long because she kept dodging. If she was comparable to Chrysalis, she could've just had a direct beam struggle with her.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The webbing is clearly PiS, and shouldn't be used for scaling. Base Chrysalis is certainly not close to Discord, and Starlight Glimmer, while Alicorn level, is def not Discord level either.

Base Chrysalis? This is Bell Chrysalis.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Oh right she was bell-enhanced by then. Still, though, I don't think it can be used for proper scaling. Bell-enhanced Chrysalis was still struggling with Starlight (which does make sense as Starlight is roughly Alicorn level) and beat her with high difficulty, and Starlight is most certainly not Discord level.

All of her attacks were very effective against Starlight. She only fought for so long because of Starlight not facing her head on.

 

[Lightbuster30]

All of her attacks were very effective against Starlight. She only fought for so long because of Starlight not facing her head on.

All of her good attacks were either outliers, sneak attacks, or both. That Starlight didn't feel confident in beating her with direct combat is the only thing she has suggesting any level of superiority to Starlight and if you think it's enough to suggest a 2x gap or greater you've got another thing coming. Because it ain't.

 

[Lightbuster30]

And I'm saying that's not true. You don't have anything suggesting any of the trio are "signifigantly stronger" than Celestia or Twilight tiers beyond outliers or skewed scaling. Still an outlier anyways since it was casual. Took less than a second to charge up and she showed no exertion.

Nope. Starswirl performed the feat with mid to low high difficulty. He's not "signifigantly above" any of them. Yet again I find myself forced to argue against things we've already been over.

Try grabbing and snatching something out of someones hands and see how easy it is when they hold on to it for dear life. Now try it against someone who doesn't give a shit and puts up no resistance. Maybe it's a combination of both? Not sure why they wouldn't struggle to hold on to their magic. Yeah, it is easy to assume when it makes ******* sense. Pinkie Pie put up literally no resistance. Pinkie Pie is a terrible example since there's a difference between "unwilling" and "not giving a shit what happens". Oh, and it doesn't screw up the scaling considering the way he absolutely tanked Sombra's hit. Even the villains considered him more powerful than themselves. Sorry, but Discord has plenty of feats to back up his claims. Maybe you'd have a point if he wasn't a top dog but he is. He underestimates his foes specifically because they are weaker than him and they can't do much else. And the fact that Discord knew so much about Grogar down to where to Bell was located implies he knows what his capabilities are. He either knew Grogar, knew about Grogar, or did his research on him in order to know as much as he did.

Or, hear me out: Teleportation is a spell that's relatively easy (A strong relatively mind you) to cast as long as you know what you're doing? You still aren't satisfying the burden of proof. All your doing is still going "well maybe she had better mastery as an adult." You really can't prove that. Trixie was a magician who uses tricks and illusions. She's regarded as a complete joke compared to Twilight in terms of magic and portrayed as such later on. No offence to her, but she wasn't all skilled at magic until she met Starlight. That's when she started learning some of the more advanced spells. There are countless teleportation scenes in My Little Pony. You're gonna need to show me the clip or tell the episode where it happened. Had some time to look it over: One of my main points was that Tirek can use the special properties of magic he takes because he's been stated to. You're argument basically went: "Well he never used it and hasn't shown to use complex spells" even though I repeatedly told you over and over again that Tirek had no use for them at any point in time. When you told me Tirek hasn't shown the capacity for complex spells, I gave portal creation as an example. You responded by trying to make portal creation look like a joke spell that could be cast by any clown with enough magical might. Even though you've shown no damned evidence. Oh joy, now I get to argue against these points on top of all the ones we're arguing for now. Hoo-*******-rah.

So. The hell. What? Not being able to have complete control doesn't mean you can't absorb the guy's magic. I'm not even arguing for "complete" control, I'm arguing for a limited control. No no, we've had books on singular subjects with all relevant information on mere few pages. Don't have to prove it isn't there because it's not ******* relevant. You'd know this if you would stop pushing for the crock of pure headcanon called: "Tirek absorbs raw strength alone".

Oh, no no, he's not portrayed as strong, just completely unharmable to Sombra, can end the Changeling Canterlot Invasion by sneezing too hard, and can literally breathe Starlight's magic off of him. But you're right, he's not physically strong. He's got nothing. Of course, none of this detracts from the fact that his reality warping can be done via thought. Yeah, no. The instant he saw the Bell alarms in his head should be going off. He had all of 10 seconds to respond from the time when he saw the Bell and before they turned the thing on and possibly far longer since the Bell came from off-screen. Also, no one gives a shit if he's in a different form or not. It's a disguse; an illusion, not an entirely new set of powers. If you truely think the Grogar transformation limited him....then prove it. You have nothing. You serious? He needs a spell? Who in the flying **** said it was a spell? No really? Where is it ever implied that Grogar is a unique transformation for Discord? Holy hell man. You once again have no dim-damned proof. If you wanna bring it up then back it up. Not even gonna address the Starlight thing. We had an entire discussion on it. The only thing I will say is: Not having a beam struggle proves all of shit. Or in layman's terms: Nothing.

 

[EMagoIorSouI]

I've noticed you guys are practically flooding the thread by going back and forth at each other's necks without giving anyone else any legroom. Instead of debating it sounds like you two are either bickering or even arguing at this point. I seriously advise you two to bring it somewhere else, I mean, seriously. I asked a question above and no one answered it because you two are flooding the thread. And what you're talking about doesn't even suit the topic of the thread anyways, bring it to somewhere more personal. Like a message wall or Discord.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I've noticed you guys are practically flooding the thread by going back and forth at each other's necks without giving anyone else any legroom. Instead of debating it sounds like you two are either bickering or even arguing at this point. I seriously advise you two to bring it somewhere else, I mean, seriously. I asked a question above and no one answered it because you two are flooding the thread. And what you're talking about doesn't even suit the topic of the thread anyways, bring it to somewhere more personal. Like a message wall or Discord.

I didn't respond because the last time I tried arguing for scaling to dreams it got shot down for "dreams not being real universes" so I didn't feel like addressing it.

 

[EMagoIorSouI]

Hm. Seems a little dubious. It was implied the world of dreams is it's own existence, and that the Tantabus was able to make it to the waking world through a portal, implied that the dream world is indeed actually existent. If the argument of 'Dreams not being real universes' is just that, then Antasma or the Zeekeeper shouldn't be 2-B since their tier scales off of dreams.

I think I could still makes the Tantabus "At least 4-B, possibly 4-A". If someone, or an admin, were to have a problem with it, then it can always be addressed in a revision thread. Were you arguing for the same cause?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Not just the Tantabus: Luna would scale as well for being able to fuse hundreds of dream realms into one. Twilight and Starswirl would scale as well since despite being much weaker, she's strong enough to not instantly die against King Sombra, who is Luna's equal (And let's face it: In a tier as expansive as 4-A that speaks volumes).

 

[Lightbuster30]

Of course, we'd still have to prove the dreams are actual physical places.

 

[EMagoIorSouI]

That, and Luna created the Tantabus.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

All of her good attacks were either outliers, sneak attacks, or both. That Starlight didn't feel confident in beating her with direct combat is the only thing she has suggesting any level of superiority to Starlight and if you think it's enough to suggest a 2x gap or greater you've got another thing coming. Because it ain't.

I'm not saying she's over 2x stronger. I'm guessing you're bringing that up because I said she could trap Discord? Well, first of all, Discord isn't even 2x Celestia level. And more importantly, I already said she could only trap him because he hasn't shown himself as that physically impressive.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I'm not saying she's over 2x stronger. I'm guessing you're bringing that up because I said she could trap Discord? Well, first of all, Discord isn't even 2x Celestia level. And more importantly, I already said she could only trap him because he hasn't shown himself as that physically impressive.

First instinct. I've already told you my view of how big a "signifigantly stronger" gap is. Well first off: That's wrong. Gave plenty of evidence and counters to your arguments already in this comment section. Secondly: You either ignored my recent comment or haven't read it yet.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Ok. What EMagolorSoul said is true. We kinda have been flooding this thread with much more than is necessary. So I'll just reply to what I really feel the need to argue against.

Discord tanked an alicorn level attack, so even being roughly 2x Celestia level could be enough to tank an attack. That, as you said, can be a huge difference in fiction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6ntk04n1qI&list=PLKxUpjEIpNaKgMNfgI4xUmIUhUUoXDWYG&index=4 (2:23)

Ok, so...how come Tirek said no one can control chaos magic if he knew he could?

I mean his things like lifting strength, striking strength, AP, etc., don't seem to be at the level of him with his reality warping. Sneezing away the army would definitely be enhanced with magic, and same with breathing off magic. I mean, sure, I can't prove Discord was just stupid. But either way, let me bring this back to what we were talking about earlier. Discord maybe didn't think to escape somehow from Tirek's grasp. But either way, you can kind of see from how the scene was animated and storyboarded that Discord was supposed to be portrayed as weaker than Tirek when he was in his foruth form. That, combined with the fact that Tirek could absorb hid magic in the first place, tells me that Tirek is stronger than Discord.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Of course, we'd still have to prove the dreams are actual physical places.

Well, the Tantabus was going to turn the real world into the dream world, so that makes sense.

 

[Lightbuster30]

This stuff is important since it pertains to settling the powerscaling of the verse.

Completely tanking an attack should be bare minimum 2x for a lowball, particularly in the context of someone like Discord. And unless you have more counters for Discord's magic being > Grogars beyond "He's arrogant" you aren't convincing me otherwise.

That happened, literally never again, at any other time. Seemed to be a combination of gag, outlier, and Twilight being emotionally stressed. Outlier because.....well.....read the first sentence of this very point. It's an outlier both in a verses and statistical sense.

Maybe Tirek is speaking from experience? You do realize that limited control means he doesn't have full control right? It's somewhere in between? Of course he'd recognize that he had little control over the stuff. He's not wrong. Cozy instantly proves him right. He's clearly generalizing it being uncontrollable as a property of chaos magic and not a limitation of his ability to absorb. You'd have to be blind not to realize this.

Being durable is a sign of immense physical strength. First of all: Being able to defeat the entire Changeling army by sneezing is clearly a reference to physical strength. It's blatantly saying his sneezes contain more power than the Changeling army. Literally nothing in the text suggests it would be magically enhanced; speaking of which: Newsflash!: What do you think makes anyone in My Little Pony physically strong in the first place? I'm getting real tired of arguing against baseless alternate interpretations. This is what throws me off-topic to begin with. That's it, the next time I see an alternate interpretation that has no strong proof or at least implied by the wording, I'm not gonna acknowledge it. Like, I know I'm coming off as passive-aggressive here, but dude: You tried to argue that the Grogar transformation was some special transformation that's somehow different from all the other times Discord tranformed himself completely, all while bringing nothing to the table to actually support it. I'm not in the mood to do the same song and dance. This wastes too much time and adds to the pile, leading to completely different arguments, like this entire thread. I'm sorry, but this has literally nothing going for it and completely ignores the fact that Discord has very little physical showings in the first place.

No one said Discord was an idiot. Just very very poor at reacting to his plans falling apart. No frankly I "kinda" can't see anything the writers are coming up with that makes Tirek stronger than Discord. See, the difference between my interpretations and yours is that mine are grounded based on what actually goes on in the show. The ones I'm arguing against are things like "We've never see Tirek use the magic he has absolutely no use for, so maybe he doesn't have it." Which I'm not going to explain how wrong that is for the umpteenth time. Anyways, Discord? Leaving himself wide open when on the verge of defeat or his plans falling apart? That's consistent characterization. It makes sense in the context of Discord and the show. So I can say Discord was too shocked to fight back. Because; again, it's not out of character for him under these circumstances. Nope. That very last sentence is very very not true. I just explained why; using Chrysalis as an example, Tirek can take magic from slightly stronger characters than him.

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

This is the problem with versus debates. When a work has so many inconsistancies, it's hard to tell what is and isn't an outlier

Anyway, with MLP, it's really hard to debate this stuff, since the whole series is full of PIS, not just with how the characters don't use abilities when they should, but how they sometimes don't do obvious things. The fact that the Mane 6 didn't get Discord to ever go back and permanently remove the Plunder Seeds even long after he reformed for good following season 4 is a perfect example of this. He could have gotten rid of the seeds so the girls could take back the EOH without consequence, but this isn't even brought up in the season 7 finale. There's also the fact that Discord can since magic but he didn't realize the trio did retrieve the bell. Speaking of which, the trio didn't bother trying to absorb the giant rainbow blast at the end with the bell. Yes, you could argue it would be too much for it to absorb, but there's still the fact that none of them even suggested it or stated it wouldn't work. I hate to say it, but FIM is filled to the brim with PIS. Not outliers. PIS is different from outliers. Outliers deal with wonky powerscaling. PIS is when the characters don't use certain abilities when they would be useful or act uncharacteristicly stupid for the sake of furthering the plot. A perfect example being that none of the trio tried to use their bell to absorb the rainbow magic.

Anyway, this thread is dragging on. If nobody minds, I'm gonna add Twilight's final form as a key and state that she is capable of raising the sun and moon and should now be about as strong as Celestia.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I'd like to imagine an outlier is a form of PIS.