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My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic Revision Thread Part 3

Not sure if it's my Aspergers playing a role, but I am pretty detail oriented (Though I can gloss over things if I get too excited). And yeah, I do have a lot of time on my hands. I only have like two days of college a week and the work isn't all hard.
 
Should we add possibly far higher to Tirek post Discord absorption? It's listed for Discord and Cozy Glow. Also, I have seen characters listed with "possible weaknesses", so is there any harm in me listing the probability that Tempest developed a fear of ursines? I don't see why it's fine for The Judge (Ace Attorney) to have a possible fear of explosions listed but not the probability of Tempest being afraid of ursines.
 
Still not really. And it didn't seem any more casual than most attacks that these characters do. Charging up attacks isn't really something mlp characters do, so that electricity hoove thing was probably about Chrysalis' max.

I mean, he'd already gone through at least 4 towns by the time he reached his third form. I don't think he is 1/6th Celestia's level anyways. Starswirl is likely well above that considering (again) the season 9 premier.

That can happen if they're relatively comparable. I'm just saying she's not necessarily weaker. Also, I doubt this reasoning is acceptable, but I'm pretty sure absorbing one earth pony to reach his third form was an outlier and the animators just forgetting stuff. That happens a lot, like how he doesn't absorb cutie marks anymore. Other than that one thing, is there anything suggesting he's 1/6th Celestia's level in his base third form?

That's not that exotic. It's just standard magic.

But he's not still not really involved with the writing of the plot and his word isn't supreme. If Meghan said it, that'd be different, but I don't think a statement from a director/storyboard artisy is enough.
 
All she did was charge her hooves and thats it. She didn't even slam her hooves on it, just.placed them on the shield.

5 towns if you count the city he was in at the start of the episode. Still, 5 towns is a hilariously small amount compared to an entire country with hundreds of them. Starswirl is at max 1/3 as strong as Celestia, although anywhere from 1/6 to 1/4 is a safer bet. But even a 3x gap is still a lot of ground to cover.

Chrysalis is pretty clearly his superior. The only way he could absorb her magic was consensually. The amount he could take by force was so miniscule it barely affected her, if at all. By comparison, he could completely take all of Discord's magic at once despite being roughly comparable to him. There's clearly a notable gap between them, and it's in Chrysalis's favor.

No, no it's not unacceptable reasoning and no it's not the animators forgetting stuff. You and I both know that Tirek has power gaps between his forms. Do I really need to say this for the umpteenth time? It took 3 whole towns for Tirek to hit his baseline third form after gaining his second form in the second town. I'm not gonna keep repeating myself. What do you mean proof his base third form being <<<1/6 of Celestia's power? You mean aside from the fact that he's at the bottom of a scaling chain starting with someone who is bare minimum that strong with mid difficulty? I've already explained to you why the difference between his baseline third form and max power second form are almost negligible in terms of power. The only power difference separating the two forms is that of one fodder Earth Pony. He's not much stronger just because he got bigger. His strength; yet a-freakin-gai, comes from how much magic he has and not his muscles.

Of course, the entire notion of powerscaling Tirek to his fourth form is flawed simply for the fact that you're pretty much saying he's close to Discord in power, and that's not gonna fly with me. Ever. Sorry, but powerscaling between Tirek and other characters has to make sense and this doesn't.

Since when the **** is portal creation "standard magic"? That's only ever been performed by higher tiers. If you think portal creation is bog standard magic, then why the hell isn't anyone using it?

Pretty sure the co-director for the series would be decently involved in the plot. You aren't the one who decides that. We don't get to pick and choose who is more reliable. His word is fine. This is not a good enough argument to convince me of anything.
 
It's not a physical attack. It's a magical one.

5 towns is a lowball anyways. Also, aren't all of Equestria's landmakrs on the mark, and there aren't that many on the map, right? Also, 1/3rd isn't the max, considering he was still stronger than Twilight in the season 9 premier, and she was able to almost fight evenly with Sombra.

Yeah...except Tirek was probably stronger than Discord at that point.

There's a thing called stuff happening offscreen. And what scaling chain? and obviously max power second form and baseline third form are very close. I'm saying that scene is an outlier because I don't think baseline third form is 1/6th Celestia.

Why isn'y fourth form Tirek close to Discord? And I'm guessing you mean because he's much weaker, cause I wouldn't argue if you said he was much stronger.

I mean it's not a complex abiliity. It just takes having a lot of power.

Perhaps. But what speical abilities would even be used to steal Discord's magic? That's not a thing the Mane 6 can do. It doesn't make any sense. In this case, I'm pretty sure death of the author applies.
 
GokuSparkle said:
Perhaps. But what speical abilities would even be used to steal Discord's magic? That's not a thing the Mane 6 can do. It doesn't make any sense. In this case, I'm pretty sure death of the author applies.
Click to expand...
She's enhancing her strength by charging magic into her hooves. Magic is involved, just not in the way you think.

It's not tbh. I'll keep repeating myself over and over again: If baseline third form is weaker than Starswirl, then he had to go through a lot of towns to make it to princess tier. Starsiwirl couldn't even harm a Celestia tier opponent. I'm not gonna repeat myself for the whatevereth time that Twilight is much weaker than Sombra at the beginning of the season. Either it's an outlier that Twilight gave Sombra as much trouble as she did or the episode writers were wanking Tirek's durability. Either way, burden of proof is on you to prove he's anything higher than a dubious 1/3. That's all he gets. Especially when Sombra was low diffing her shields and lasers save for a single outlier where Twilight swats a blast away Dragonball Style.

He's comparable to Discord at this point. At the very most slightly stronger. Nowhere near stronger enough that it debunks my point.

That argument works to my advantage, not to yours. If you want to argue that Tirek stole magic from ponies off-screen before the trio made it to Canterlot, then that's on you to prove. I can prove he did it off-screen during season 4 because the power gap between him and the Celestia requires it. I mean, really, the guy was confident he could take all 3 of them at once by the time he finished with Canterlot. Now granted, I know I argued against this very logic a couple months ago, but considering the guy only needed one last push to edge him into Discord tier power, I wouldn't put it past him. Basically the context between what I argued against and what I'm arguing for is not the same. They may be the same argument, but one has a different reasoning than the other. One is with someone with actual feats suggesting he's as strong as he thinks and another is a guy who brags and thinks himself better than the very princesses who stomped him because of an empty throne room.

I'm not saying fourth form Tirek isn't comparable to Discord, I'm saying bell enhanced Tirek being comparable to fourth form Tirek is either an outlier or straight up wrong because of how badly it ***** over the powerscaling between him and Alicorn tier opponents and goes against Tirek's actual portrayal against said opponents.

Prove it then. Because magic has always been portrayed as something you have to study and know how to do.

What are you talking about? Ok, lets go over this. Big Jim says the Mane 6 may have been affected by all the special magic they've been soaking up. Now what special magic could they have been interacting with? The obvious answer is the Magic of Friendship. Pretty hard to imagine any other form of magic that is not only unique, but that they've simultaneously been in consistent contact with. The Magic of Friendship is also a counter to Discord's abilities and can naturally undo them. So if Tirek absorbed not only their respective racial magic, he may have also absorbed some of the special magic and if he absorbed some of it, then maybe that allowed him to retain control and sanity despite having it.
 
In Twilight vs Tirek Twilight smacks Tirek down seemingly with a physical strike after getting rammed though the mountain. Light is right that magic can be used to enhance physical blows.
 
Bell enhanced Tirek is just Tirek in his third form. There is a very big gap in power in between his four forms. 2nd form Tirek seems somewhat weaker than base Chrysalis (given he had trouble steeling her magic), while third form Tirek seems somewhat stronger than Bewitching Bell enhanced Chrysalis (given how easily he defeated the pillars while Chrysalis had some small trouble with Starlight, who, assuming she didn't get much stronger since season 7, should be below Starswirl). This suggests that Chrysalis got the smallest share of the magic, considering that in addition to what I just wrote, Cozy Glow went from being a Pegasus to an alicorn (though she should still be the weakest of the three due to how much more powerful the other two were than her before they took the magic). Given that Tirek was already just one Earth Pony away from his third form, it should be a given that the bell put him into the far end area of his third form. It's because of how far he must have been into his third form that I consider him not reaching his final form (with the mop of hair on his head and the broken bracelets) after absorbing the magic of all of the pillars to be an outlier. The only other explanation would be that the power gap in between his third form and his final form is the biggest of all the power gaps in between his forms. Even if you do assume that to be the case, he would have to have absorbed a LOT of ponies in between appaloosa and Ponyville, and the problem with that is that he didn't look much bigger when he first got to Ponyville than he did when he first reached his 3rd form in Apploosa. Even if it doesn't get him to his next form, he's still shown to grow everytime he absorbs magic, so if he really did absorb that much magic in between Apploosa and Ponyville, why didn't he look that much bigger?
 
Assuming each villain gained at least Celestia tier strength, then Chrysalis and Tirek would have Celestia tier strength + <<<1/6th of that on top of it. Nowhere near Discord's level/Fourth form Tirek level. Getting tired saying it and not being refuted: Not an outlier when Tirek still had a metric shitload of towns left.

And Chrysalis only had trouble with Starlight because she kept teleporting around. It doesn;t make her weaker and there's nothing suggesting a huge gap between Cozy and the other two.
 
Also Tirek never grows in size just because he absorbs magic. He has to absorb a specific amount of magic to grow even an inch. He doesn't randomly grow for absorbing any random amount of magic. That's pure headcanon and non-provable. Meaning asking why he didn't grow between Appleloosa and Ponyville is silly.
 
Well, once he absorbed Discord's magic, he seemed to turn it into raw power rather than gaining all of Discord's abilities. The only time he used reality warping was when he did the bubble thing. The series finale shows he cannot control Discord's magic in its purest form.
 
I'm not sure how that refutes my theory that trace amounts of Harmony Magic he may have absorbed from the Mane 5 (They're confirmed to be saturated in it) allowed him to retain control and sanity.
 
Maybe he needed to be in his final form before he could control it, maybe he can't control it in its purest form and his draining turns it into raw energy while the bell gives the user all the abilities. Could be either. It has to be one of those two, otherwise he wouldn't have said he couldn't take it in the season 9 finale when he did in season 4. Maybe the Mane 5 and Spike gave him the extra boost he needed. In either case, he only demonstrates the use of chaos magic once after absorbing Discord's magic. Unless you count his newly gained flight.
 
That really makes no sense imo, and I'm honestly in no mood to go over the same stuff I just went over GokuSparkle with over why he drains only raw energy is false.
 
I don't know. I really don't understand why he couldn't take it from the bell in the finale. Anyway, rather he has access to most of Discord's abilities or not, can I add possibly much higher to his keys?

I don't want to cause animosity between us. I could use your help in some debates.
 
I don't mind.

I know you aren't. but it feels like a lot of arguments I'm forced to restate over and over again because the points I see now look like the same points I just argued against. I'm not accusing anyone of doing that, but it gets aggravating and gives me the impression that my posts aren't being read.
 
What else has to be done with this thread? Should we discuss the possibility of giving Twilight a new key after her second transformation that we see in the finale? Jim Miller revealed that the crown she was given gave her the power to move the sun and moon, which may explain her changing again over the years. She's probably on par with Celestia by the epilogue.
 
Most importantly the finale basically showed she can harness the EOH's power without them now even saying "they were just symbols"
 
See, now that's where I dismiss Big Jim's word. The "special magic" is pretty plausible and not contradicted. But when Twilight is still too weak to move the Sun and Moon despite sitting down Celestia tier opponents, I have to draw the line.
 
Not really imo. The Ending of the End already implied this for her normal Alicorn form. Saying her final form is up to par is kinda redundant.
 
Oh, most definitely. It's an entirely new form. Doesn't matter if she has no new powers. Glim Glam didn't get any new powers from becoming a good girl and she got a key and tabber for her post Season 5 self.
 
3form Tirek could believe that Discord would help him defeat the princesses. But Discord could already know that the princesses had no magic, so he didn't help
Tirek-in-canterlot
 
I personally think we should give finale Twilight a tier on par with Celestia. She's taken over as ruler in her stead, has become a fully grown Alicorn, and Big Jim specifically said the fusing of the crown was meant to symbolize Celestia and Luna giving Twilight their powers.
 
I don't have any problems with Twilight scaling fuly to Celestia. I do have problems with them giving her their powers through the crown. Worst part is that Jim implied anyone could do it if they had the crown. Messed with the powerscaling, and makes Twilight feel less like a ruler since anyone can do it. Hate the whole idea.
 
I'm saying most of the power came from the magic coursing through the shield, not her slamming her hooves.

Who's the Celestia tier opponent he couldn't harm? And no, it's because by Season 9 Twilight is stronger. He blasted them away, but he was't so much stronger that the blast tore right through and damaged her. And I guess I have to conede the Tirek argument at this point. I strongly believe The Summer Sun Setback Tirek powerscaling is an outlier, but it's hard to back up.

I'd argue he's maybe 1.8x Celestia level in fourth form, while Discord is something like 1.5 or 1.6x Celestia level.

Yes, but it seems to basically be a fancy form of teleportation.

It's not just that the magic of friendship is an automatic counter to Discord, it's because it's powerful enough to defeat him. And it clearly doesn't have a special advantage over evil, because it didn't do anything to the pony of shadows, who is pure darkness incarnate. Now, if Tirek had absorbed magic from them while they were wearing the elements, that'd be a different story, but the latent friendship magic inside all of them doesn't just give Tirek the ability to fight Discord particularly well. If you want to say it does, prove it.
 
Js250476 said:
In Twilight vs Tirek Twilight smacks Tirek down seemingly with a physical strike after getting rammed though the mountain. Light is right that magic can be used to enhance physical blows.
Click to expand...
? That was a beam.
 
Just cause you hate the idea doesn't mean it's not true.

Also, shouldn't Post-Mane 6 Tirek also be possibly far higher?

"Full Power Dazzlings, anyone in EqG who's used the MoF, the Storm King, the Mane 6 when using EoH or RP, and maybe some others I'm missing, but that should be everybody."

"Midnight Sparkle and Gloriosa should also probably get possibly be far higher."

Same with these characters.
 
Js250476 said:
Most importantly the finale basically showed she can harness the EOH's power without them now even saying "they were just symbols"
Click to expand...
The moment when Twilight is able to freely manipulate the magic of Friendship without the elements is when she becomes the strongest Alicorn (and arguably most powerful individual being in the series).

Through the logic of the scaling it's literally almost laughable to refute, she's literally the physical embodiment of the Elements and there isn't a soul in Equestria that can contest her. This is why regardless of what celestial body feats she lacks, I was pushing for a key for whatever you guys wanted to call that "form".
 
And I say she enhanced her strength via magic which makes more sense than gaining the power to randomly emit magic from her hooves as a weapo on contact.

Lord Tirek himself? Sombra broke both of her shields trivially and knocked her backwards; and for the whatevereth time no shields are not influenced by charge time. I am not getting into that argument again. Especially not when there's nothing but pure speculation holding it up.

First off: Discord is not 1.5 times Celestia level. We just agreed months ago that Discord was 2x their power back when they were 4-C. It's the sole reason anyone was High 4-C. And no Tirek is not that much stronger than Discord. Can we please stop handing out assumed multipliers? Nothing suggests Tirek was stronger and he only got Discord by shocking him with his betrayal. Tirek at the absolute max is comparable to Discord and that's solely because he was strong enough to take his magic, which requires Tirek being comparable to do in the first place.

You have no idea how insulting I find that oversimplification of portal making. By this point we're entering pedantic territory.

The Elements of Harmony are blatantly his opposite. Do I really have to point out all the opposing themes Discord and the Magic of Friendship have with each other? Maybe the Pony of Shadow's was simply too powerful? Sure seemed to be effective against evil corruption everytime it's been used. And when used against a shadow pony practically made of the stuff? Literally killed him (I'm talking about Sombra). It's not hard to imagine they were making Discord's magic easier to control. I don't have to prove it because that isn't my argument. My argument is: Maybe Tirek could handle Discord's magic because the trace amounts of Harmony magic he potentially absorbed made it easier, being Discord's opposite.
 
It's been discussed already: The bombs never displayed any magic negating properties while inert, meaning it was the force of her kick that broke it though Cadance's shield. Not to mention very briefly (albeit losing) clashing with the staff. Makes no sense for a 6-B to threaten a 4-B to the point of actively choosing to run in each encounter, bombs or not, nothing stops Twilight from blasting her before she gets the chance to blink. Unless of course...maybe Tempest actually is that powerful that it wouldn't work.
 
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