My Little Pony FiM Revision Thread (Warning: Season 9 Spoilers) [Part 2]

[Lightbuster30]

I've never seen her react to a top tier attack once beyond an outlier for outpacing Tempest's bombs.

Why is that an outlier?

Because she did it one time and never did anything like that again?

Also, the "Sedentary" Celestia is the one who scales to Massively FTL+ while Dash gets FTL. Either Dash has consistient speed feats scaling her to the top tiers or she doesn't. Outflying Twilight doesn't count since we scale Massively FTL+ only to magic speed only to top tier reactions and magic speed, not flying speed.

 

[Js250476]

Doesn't Rainbow outfly Cozy's blasts in the finale? In fact all of the Mane 6 run circles around them (like Pinkie literally dancing around Chrysalis's blasts)

 

[Lightbuster30]

Doesn't Rainbow outfly Cozy's blasts in the finale? In fact all of the Mane 6 run circles around them (like Pinkie literally dancing around Chrysalis's blasts)

I mean, based on that logic, we'd have to upgrade Spike and Rarity to Low 4-C+ to 4-C, likely High 4-C, and Fluttershy too for scaling.

So either the mane 6 got an inexplicable power boost and they're all top tier level in base now, or it was PIS.

 

[Js250476]

I mean the former might be possible tbh. The finale does imply there stronger then they were before like with Rarity tossing that boulder at Tirek and more specifically her firing lasers and generating those Diamond shields this season when she's never done this before.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Whatever the case may be, pre-season 9 Rainbow Dash doesn't scale to Massively FTL+. Maybe Season 9 for all the powerscaling shenanigans that happened in the finale, but she'd need a new key entirely since none of them had feats like that before.

 

[Js250476]

That I'm completely okay with. It might seem weird but with how many feats the EOS Mane 6 have it doesn't seem like to much of an outlier to me.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I still feel like Starswirl should scale if random members of the Mane 6 and even Spike of all creatures did better than him. Feels kinda setting breaking to have the literal weakest members of the Mane 6 outdo an established powerhouse, which is why I'm on the fence about letting the Mane 6 scale.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Season 9 started out with Starswirl looking like a badass. Went out with him looking like a chump. I'm more salty about that than anything Discord did (Almost not even mad about Discord tbh).

 

[Js250476]

Ngl I was somewhat disappointed with the Grogar twist. But Discord did get some nice development and awesome character moments (roasting Tirek and petrifying them all together cause he knew they wouldn't like it was pretty GOAT.)

 

[Lightbuster30]

Ngl I was somewhat disappointed with the Grogar twist. But Discord did get some nice development and awesome character moments (roasting Tirek and petrifying them all together cause he knew they wouldn't like it was pretty GOAT.)

I kinda was too, but I didn't really care all too much about Grogar, so I got over it quickly enough. I mean, I did care, but the dude didn't get enough screentime for me to be overly invested in. I was more conscerned about the fanbase and boy are they throwing a temper tantrum.

 

[Js250476]

Yeah I got over it like minutes afterwards especially since the episode gave me plenty of awesome Discord and character moments anyways (I can relate to the fandom concern to tbh)

anyway since it's relevant Spike does already scale to the Roc with his fire breath which can take hits from Alicorn Twi so maybe he qualifies for tier 4.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I'm not sure about scaling to the Roc for the same reasons as above: That thing wasn't just taking Twilight's hits, it was tanking them. At best Twilight was a nuiscance, then Spike goes and one-shots the thing.

 

[Js250476]

I suppose that's fair at the same time it's also easily the strongest fire breath we've seen from him at this point (not counting The Chrysalis shenanigans). I heard the argument Twilight might not have gone all out and while I doubt she was trying to kill it she was serious since she was trying to save Rarity and Zecora.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Well holding back isn't a lot of incentive to scale him to Twilight.

 

[Js250476]

Well yeah but like I said there isn't a clear indication of that. Anyway maybe Spike can get a possibly higher rating at most if it's to questionable. And maybe making season 9 keys for the Mane 6 (Twilight does have plenty of feats herself to as this thread notes.)

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

So, do we give Chrysalis her Bewitching Bell enhanced form key? Also, do we give Cozy Glow her profile now?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Because she did it one time and never did anything like that again?

Also, the "Sedentary" Celestia is the one who scales to Massively FTL+ while Dash gets FTL. Either Dash has consistient speed feats scaling her to the top tiers or she doesn't. Outflying Twilight doesn't count since we scale Massively FTL+ only to magic speed only to top tier reactions and magic speed, not flying speed.

Let me put it this way: how many times has she been shown as inferior in speed in any way to tier 4s?

Um...and I'm saying Dash IS Massively FTL+. Obviously her flying speed isn't Massively FTL+, and she doesn't have magic, but she should have top tier reactions as the fastest pony in Equestria. Most things in the series implies this fact, and very little if anything supports Dash not having top tier reactions.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Well yeah but like I said there isn't a clear indication of that. Anyway maybe Spike can get a possibly higher rating at most if it's to questionable. And maybe making season 9 keys for the Mane 6 (Twilight does have plenty of feats herself to as this thread notes.)

Speaking of Spike, his 6-B rating is still confusing. There's no reason for him to be 6-B at all. Other than in his adult form, he has no 6-B feats. If anything, he should be At least Low 7-C, at most 4-C. Or Low 4-C. Again, are Twilight and Starlight being upgraded for Season 9 feats?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Let me put it this way: how many times has she been shown as inferior in speed in any way to tier 4s?

Um...and I'm saying Dash IS Massively FTL+. Obviously her flying speed isn't Massively FTL+, and she doesn't have magic, but she should have top tier reactions as the fastest pony in Equestria. Most things in the series implies this fact, and very little if anything supports Dash not having top tier reactions.

Never being portrayed as inferior doesn't make her faster. It means it never happened. I could ask the same but in the opposite direction: How many times has she displayed superior or at least comparable speed to tier 4s reactionwise?

She is described as the fastest flier in Equestria. At no point in the series or in The Elements of Harmony Guidebook descriptions is she described as being the fastest in reflexes, only flying specifically. Since none of the tier 4s can actually fly at Massively FTL+ speeds; rather only fight and react at them, Dash's fastest flier statement doesn't apply.

Technically she does have magic. Nearly everything in Equestria uses magic. Even dragon breath is described as magical in nature. And I'm not talking about Spike, no I mean dragons in general are descirbed as having magic fire.

Source: The Elements of Harmony Guidebook Volume 2.

 

[Lightbuster30]

So I was wondering should Rainbow Dash be upgraded to MFTL+ I rewatched the movie today and she was able to react and save Twilight from a bomb thrown by Tempest (and she was able to tag Luna before she could react with them) https://youtu.be/84o0jdMMTJA 3:45

Rewatched the video, Tempest can't kick bombs at Massively FTL+. The bomb never hit Luna before she could react. Luna wasn't even paying attention in the first place considering she made no reaction of any sort to the bomb before it hit her.

 

[Lightbuster30]

If people have sources of Rainbow Dash reacting to top tier attacks then I'd love to see them. Do bear in mind I'll judge if they are legit based on their context. For example: In one episode Starlight Glimmer ducks down from a blast from a panicking Sunburst. Would we say Sunburst is Low 4-C because he made Starlight feel the need to duck his blast instead of tanking it? No, of course not. We aren't giving a dude who literally failed magic school for being not magically strong enough such a high rating.

 

[Js250476]

what are you implying tier 4 chicken via scaring Celestia isn't legit

 

[Lightbuster30]

what are you implying tier 4 chicken via scaring Celestia isn't legit </div>

It's obviously the true god tier of the verse so ofc it scales to tier 4

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Other than dodging beams in the season 9 premier, nothing specifically comes to mind, but why would the fastest pony in Equestria not have similarly impressive reactions?

Though, I guess you could probably guess that she does have Massively FTL+ reactions since she fought in a war against King Sombra as a general in the season 5 finale, and if any strong unicorns fired a blast at her, and she was merely FTL, she'd be a goner. And beyond feats, it's just weird for Rainbow to not have the best reactions in the verse. Like, why do unicorns have thousands of times faster reaction speeds than pegasi? Especially Rainbow? Especially when they don't generally specialize in speed in general. I know that's not a solid argument, but I think it's notworthy enough to bring up.

 

[Lightbuster30]

4-B MLP

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3549473

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Random thought, what are the top tier movement speed feats in the verse? None of the profile pages say anything about that. Unless it's implied that pegasi can fly as fast as fodder unicorn magic moves? It does make sense. I just want to confirm.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Also, does anyone else find it extremely off that Rainbow Dash supposedly has thousands of times slower reaction and combat speed than someone like Twilight? Out of all the strange stats I've seen from this verse, that is by far the strangest. Like, no contest. Sure, there's no concrete proof that she can fight as fast as top tiers, but it makes a lot of sense. I'm fine with At least FTL, possibly Massively FTL+ combat and reaction speed, but just FTL is way too slow.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think anyone is FTL in flight speed, only combat speed.

 

[Bowser-us]

I don't think anyone is FTL in flight speed, only combat speed.

Could Rainbow dodge Twilight's attack? Maybe it was in some episode

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I don't think anyone is FTL in flight speed, only combat speed.

So is Rainbow just like Supersonic in flight speed then?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Replying to something posted in the 4-B revision thread.

"She nearly got knocked over Twice by his magic and completely and utterly failed to stop his magic based purely on the grounds that her magic was weaker. This isn't a matter of "not being confident enough" it's a matter of trying and failing. It shows she is weaker than he is. Besides, we've established previously that shields aren't overwhelmingly powerful compared to AP.

Tirek is an absolute tank my friend. Despite being equals with Twilight, multiple direct shots served only to annoy him, including one directly to his face sustained for multiple seconds.

This implies he is a tank against equal opponents. That Twilight can knock him off his feet and break his teeth all in one hit implies Twilight fired a strong enough shot to break his tanky durability. Something not possible if they were equals for reasons I posted above. This implies Twilight has gotten much strongersince she last faced Sombra."

First of all, I said she was weaker than Sombra. Just not multiple times weaker. This is especially supported by her swiping her head to knock away a beam and then slightly holding back a beam in a direct beam clash. Sure, she was losing, but she didn't immediately get overwhelmed or anything. She struggled for several seconds. Chrysalis did something similar in the mean six, and that feat was accepted to scale her to Twilight. So why should 2 feats not support Twilight being alicorn level? Especially considering later feats from the same season that further support this? It doesn't make sense for her to suddenly get a massive upgrade in the finale. It was probably a gradual growth, and she entered Celestia tier in the beginning of Season 9.

Also, yes, ponies probably aren't overwhelmiingly weaker than their shields. Cozy seems to be 1-2x alicorn level, so if Twilight was around Celestia tier, or slightly weaker, it could still make sense. Maybe Twilight is 0.9x alicorn level, Sombra is 1.2x alicorn level, Cozy is 1.5x alicorn level, and Twilight's shield is 1.5x or 1.6x alicorn level. Also, when has it been established that shields aren't massively stronger than the user again?

Secondly, it is a kids cartoon. You can't expect too much statistical consistency. And you can't seriously think that Twilight is stronger than Tirek, can you? Because if you took all the feats at face value, she would be. It's especially dubious because a single shot from Cozy, someone probably weaker than Tirek, knocked her out. The only reason Twilight was able to defeat her was with her friends using numbers and strategy to overwhelm Cozy. Do you think it makes more sense to take something that happened in the same episode as the knocking teeth feat, or something from one scene 5 seasons ago that the writers/animators likely just forgot about? I do think Twilight is in the same general realm of power as Tirek, like less than 2x weaker, but she's not on his level.

And I won't argue that she's gotten stronger. That's definitely possible. I just think she was still roughly Celestia tier from the beginning of Season 9 too. The amulet feat does contradict this, but I already explained why it's not necessarily proof in the 4-B thread. Also, Starlight possibly scaling to Chrysalis supports this too.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Also, why are some of the characters At least Solar System level? I doubt any of the characters are billions of times stronger than Celestia's highest feat.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Also, why are some of the characters At least Solar System level? I doubt any of the characters are billions of times stronger than Celestia's highest feat.

Because Celestia can still control the Sun with a small part of her magic. So anyone on par or superior to her gets the rating.

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

Umm... I know the basics of what happened in the finale, but I haven't watched the whole thing to save me the surprise of the great fight scenes, so I don't know how much help I can be of until the official airdate. I would like to say though that since a lot of people on this wiki are probably like me, we should be able to work out the revisions much quicker once more people have seen it. I have to ask though, are we sure that Bewitching Bell enhanced ex-queen Chrysalis is stronger than love absorption ex-queen Chrysalis? I know she managed to defeat Starlight, but I haven't seen the full fight as I said, and I know for a fact that Starlight should be weaker than the two sisters. I also don't really think we should assume that the initial power in the Bewitching Bell was distributed exactly equally amongst the trio. Things don't always work/divide linerally like they should, even when it would make perfect sense. For example, if you have to cook something for 5 minutes at 100 degrees, it won't work if you try to do it for 1 minute at 500 degrees. If the power really was distributed exactly equally, Chrysalis and Tirek should have gotten much stronger than they did. If Cozy became an allicorn capable of battling Twilight, Tirek, who was already well on the verge of getting his third form (given that in Summer Sun Setback a single pony brought him to his 3rd form), should have been brought to his final form with the ripped sleeves and mohawk. Meanwhile, Chrysalis should have been able to curb stomp Starlight (I admit to not seeing the full fight just yet, but I have seen enough snapshots and read enough on here to know it was not a squash match in Chrysalis's favor). Cozy seems to have gotten the lions share of the power.

Anyway, when we make a profile for Cozy, here are some abilities I recommend:

Base: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Small Size (Type 0), Genius Intelligence, Flight, Social Influencing, Preparation, minor Toon Force (Melted snow with her anger in Frenemies)

Alicorn State: Magic, Energy Projection

Discord's magic absorbed: Large Size (Type 1), Reality Warping

Her stamina in base state should be higher than that of Apple Bloom and Sweetie Belle, given she was able to scale Mount Everhoof. Her Alicorn state should have high stamina due to combining her own rather high stamina (for a filly) with that of an alicorn. Her Discord state should have extremely high stamina.

 

[Lightbuster30]

And I won't argue that she's gotten stronger. That's definitely possible. I just think she was still roughly Celestia tier from the beginning of Season 9 too. The amulet feat does contradict this, but I already explained why it's not necessarily proof in the 4-B thread. Also, Starlight possibly scaling to Chrysalis supports this too.

She swiped away his blast one time. Every other time she struggled a lot. The thing with Chrysalis is that she scales to Twilight but at the same time is strong enough not to get stomped. and barely holds out. Because of that Chrysalis scaled to less than 22.6776667. Personally, I'd say she's anywhere from 2-3 times weaker than Twilight for struggling as much as she did. Maybe more, maybe less? Twilight was originally 22.6776667 tenatons, even if Chrysalis struggling makes her 3 times weaker, she'd still be 7.55922223 tenatons. Still Low 4-C pre-upgrades. Just as Chrysalis struggled immensely with Twilight, Twilight struggled a lot with Sombra, and so I view the gap between them similar. Although I may be fine with a 50% gap for both Twilight and Chrysalis.

Tl;Dr she does scale to Twilight, but because she struggled she doesn't scale 100% to her. The "at most" is there for a reason.

Remind me again where Twilight got knocked out by Cozy? I honestly can't remember. I remember Cozy blasting into the throne room, Twilight shielding from her, Cozy steals the sisters magic, then the mane 6 mess with her until backup arrives. I don't particularly remember Cozy interacting with Twilight in the field battle, save for the initial blast Twilight teleported from.

If she didn't struggle with Sombra I'd be inclined to agree. He shattered her shield twice (which probably shouldn't happen if shields are 1.5 to 2x stronger than beams like you suggest), and no you can't say it wasn't fully formed. I've already pointed out that Twilight can form shields at full power in very short timeframes last time we talked about this.

I mean, Celestia explicitly said she and Luna gave the amulet a small part of their power. You can't really say: The writers meant in terms of Celestia's special ability, when they outright say power. If they meant in terms of special ability, then Celestia's previous justification for "at least 4-C likely High 4-C" means nothing as it is based on Celestia being able to control the Sun with small parts of her power as AP.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

And she beam struggled. I guess it's possible that season 9 pre-ending of the end Twilight is half as strong as she was in the ending of the end, but one season still seems like too short of a time span for Twilight to have grown so much when she's previously never shown an increase in strength even over 5 seasons. But whatever. Either way, Season 9 Twilight should be significantly stronger than herself in previous seasons, if still not alicorn tier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_qWiBLEoBo&list=PLTdOosANvUynoU5ZRL2kwBVXWQGiq9t0B (0:48)

It didn't look like the fully formed shield she usually uses, which completely encansulates her body in a shield. There's ben a trend throughout the show. With less formed shields, comparable characters have been able to break through, but every time a character used a shield that completely covered them in a dome, it didn't break, or it took someone much stronger than the caster to break it. You can say it's a full power shield, but I'm not sure about that, considering each time, with more preparation time, she did slightly better, save for the final beam struggle.

The implication could've just been that she meant magic, and if the writers thought it's her specific type of magic that can control the sun, it'd make sense. Also, does that mean Twilight isn't 5-C? No.

 

[Lightbuster30]

And she was barely holding out in the beam struggle. We can hear her groaning in exertion.

There is no trend going on here. Non-full body shields are just as strong as full body shields. Twilight's half-dome shield held up perfectly fine against Starlight's attack in the S5 premier. And in the S5 finale, I spotted a few half-formed shields that held up as good as normal ones. There is no correlation between the area of the shield and increasing defenses. Neither is there correlation between the shape or appearance of the shield and increasing defenses.

On the topic of Cozy, you could say she knocked the wind out of Twilight (seeing as she recovered relatively quickly), or Twilight wasn't expecting her to be so strong considering Twilight did much better later multiple times. At the very least I can say she simply can't take hits very well, which honestly wouldn't surprise me all that much given the main characters track record for taking hits. However, this does not mean she is weaker. It just means she has poor stamina. Durability keeps you from getting hurt to begin with, whereas stamina determines how long you can fight and how well you take hits strong enough to break your durability. Poor stamina and pain tolerance is not indicative of weaker strength or durability. You can have immense stamina but poor AP/Durability.

Yeah, but the scene is still written as the princesses being superior to Twilight, which actually makes a lot more sense if she's at least half as strong rather than on par.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Why would all 3 of the alicorns have stood back while the guards fought if they could've beaten Cozy? Especially since they didn't know Cozy had the bell at the time? Also, half formed shields should probably be more like around the level of the user, so that makes sense. While full dome shields would be superior, if not greatly so.

That's mostly headcanon.

I can understand that. But anyways, she's stronger than before, seeing as she was previously weaker than Starswirl, who is considered a bit more than 1/6th as strong as Celestia.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Why would all 3 of the alicorns have stood back while the guards fought if they could've beaten Cozy? Especially since they didn't know Cozy had the bell at the time? Also, half formed shields should probably be more like around the level of the user, so that makes sense. While full dome shields would be superior, if not greatly so.
That's mostly headcanon.

I can understand that. But anyways, she's stronger than before, seeing as she was previously weaker than Starswirl, who is considered a bit more than 1/6th as strong as Celestia.

You'll have to go into details with that.

Again, there's no proof of half dome shields being inferior. The only difference is their shapes. If anything, smaller shields should be stronger since you don't have to waste as much magic stretching it all the way around you. All of them defend against magic with equal. There's either proof of half domes being inferior or there isn't, and I'm not seeing any.

Um, no it isn't. Thats literally how stamina and durability are treated. A wall buster isn't going to tank a supernova because they have godlike stamina/pain tolerance. There isn't anything headcanon about it. Or did you mean Twilight underestimating Cozy Glow? It's a possibility she did judging on her later performances (Mind you, her half dome shield completely tanked Cozy's hit, which according to you isn't much stronger than the wielder compared to other shields).

I don't know how strong precisely she is, I just don't personally believe she is alicorn tier throughout S9. In part due to her massive improvement when faced against a similar tier threat to Sombra at the end. I also believe she got much stronger near the end because her friends also got much stronger. And they absolutley weren't alicorn tier at the start of S9.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

.... When did The other Mane Six get stronger ? I honestly don't remember seeing that ?