-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
My Little Pony FiM Revision Thread (Warning: Season 9 Spoilers) [Part 2]
- Thread starter The_2nd_Existential_Seed
- Start date
- 8,400
- 1,762
- Thread starter
- #82
@Ant While I also wanted some feedback myself about the EqG bit, they never, ever imply planets. Medeus stated that they implied Universe, and they mention Universe faf too consistently throughout the series to mean their world for it to be hyperbolic or anything . They'e really never stated enough to really imply anything lower when there is more statements from EqG stating Universe than anything else to refer to totality, and planet doesn't make sense whent he characters are aware of spatial dimensions between the worlds and never stated planet to describe the world.
- 167,867
- 76,494
We cannot assume that "world" automatically means "universe", unless it is consistently defined as such, especially given that it would be far beyond the scale of anything else demonstrated in the series.
- 3,719
- 2,761
Could always just ask for Word of God since the series is over. I hear creators are often prone to answering tons of questions after a series finale.
- 167,867
- 76,494
I suppose that might work out, but it would have to be some very reliable showrunner. Also, the show has technically not been officially fully released yet, so they might respond badly to people who watched it for free online.
- 31,471
- 34,337
I agree that World shouldn't mean Universe by default, and depends more on context. But reality could be a synonym for universe; just like pocket reality and pocket universe are synonyms; though, not going to assume they mean the same thing. However "All Reality" is inherently the Space-Time continuum. I agree that "Infinite powers" sounds far too hyperbolic to be taken literally.
AKM Sama is making good points, but as I said; Ultima Reality seems to be our main expert for what Reality/Universe means.
AKM Sama is making good points, but as I said; Ultima Reality seems to be our main expert for what Reality/Universe means.
- 7,095
- 3,855
I thought making direct questions to authors was banned in this wiki.
Somebodydata tell us that.
Somebodydata tell us that.
- 167,867
- 76,494
Well, harrassing authors with leading questions is heavily frowned upon. I am not sure whether or not this would be acceptable, but it is probably best if we try to figure this out on our own, as the showrunners will not reply for at least 1.5 months anyway.
- 31,471
- 34,337
Yeah, it's best not to bother authors with stuff like this. Especially since they tend to have far too much stress on their hands.
- 6,594
- 1,713
He's not literally ripping reality, although he can. Long story made short: He said he'll be able to rip the fabric of reality to save his friends. Ripping a hole in reality isn't going to do much help. He far far more likely means he can warp the fabric of reality.AKM sama said:
Second statement: Depends on the context. Discord is a literal reality warper here, so when he says "it would give you power over all reality" and knowing what Discord typically does, occam's razor assumes he means "control" in the context of reality warping rather than controlling it the way a king would a country and frankly makes far more sense.
Thirdly, the last statement is consistient with the other two. Yes, it is an "I feel like" claim but again, is consistient with previous statements.
- 3,719
- 2,761
Having power over all of reality with the context of them talking about his powers and how we know he's a reality warper, it REALLY is a stretch to assume he meant to control reality through some other means. "All of reality" also isn't vague. That's at least universal given the show exists in a universe.
"Warping the cosmos" is easily at least MSS due to the billions of stars in the night sky and would still be so from the sheer range of it, but of we wanna play with textbook definitions, then it literally translates to "universe" and has themings of an orderly system on a massive scale, and given Discord's chaos magic and the fact he's an embodiment of Chaos itself? Yeab, Occam's Razor is really favoring good ol' Discy here.
"Warping the cosmos" is easily at least MSS due to the billions of stars in the night sky and would still be so from the sheer range of it, but of we wanna play with textbook definitions, then it literally translates to "universe" and has themings of an orderly system on a massive scale, and given Discord's chaos magic and the fact he's an embodiment of Chaos itself? Yeab, Occam's Razor is really favoring good ol' Discy here.
- 6,594
- 1,713
What are your thoughts on Discord being overpowered by Tirek and other times he's shown limits to be pis?Foxthefox1000 said:
- 3,719
- 2,761
Discord wasn't overpowered by Tirek. He got his magic absorbed and taken from him, and Tirek makes it clear to us in the new season that "no one can handle all that chaos" which implies he couldn't really make effective use of Discord's power or control it when he had it, meaning Discord is still > Tirek by statements and massively above everyone else due to his magic being too much in one way or another for Tirek with practically ALL the magic in Equestria sans the Princesses all conglomerated together. We even see a parallel with Twilight being inexperienced and unable to control the potency of her magic well with all of the Princesses' power.
As for PIS? Discord is clearly super casual with all of his feats and it was said a simple smeeze could've made the Changelings into paste if it wasn't for the phlebotinum the writers pulled out of their ass. He never takes things seriously which is why we even had the "potentially far higher" rating, but now that we have somewhat of a cap to his abilities, I guess we suddenly choose to ignore that part. It doesn't even have to scale toward his durability. Hell, maybe he has universal range but it's not an AP thing? Either way, I don't see how this isn't an upgrade in at least some form. We've taken vaguer statements and given them some credit before.
As for PIS? Discord is clearly super casual with all of his feats and it was said a simple smeeze could've made the Changelings into paste if it wasn't for the phlebotinum the writers pulled out of their ass. He never takes things seriously which is why we even had the "potentially far higher" rating, but now that we have somewhat of a cap to his abilities, I guess we suddenly choose to ignore that part. It doesn't even have to scale toward his durability. Hell, maybe he has universal range but it's not an AP thing? Either way, I don't see how this isn't an upgrade in at least some form. We've taken vaguer statements and given them some credit before.
- 6,594
- 1,713
Yeah, but wouldn't Tirek still have to be comparable to the guy in order to steal his magic in the first place? Considering he can't steal from beings that are too powerful for him?Foxthefox1000 said:
- 3,719
- 2,761
Eh, I guess.
CinnabarManx421
He/Him- 5,806
- 3,720
CinnabarManx421 said:
- 11,135
- 14,120
The first statement doesn't mean universal AP.
The second statement coupled with the first one just means decent reality warping hax. Again no indication of universal AP.
The third statement is questionable.
I don't think anything here gives a solid sense of universal AP, and assuming it to be such based on statements without any backing would be a stretch. It does give a sense of decent reality warping tho.
The second statement coupled with the first one just means decent reality warping hax. Again no indication of universal AP.
The third statement is questionable.
I don't think anything here gives a solid sense of universal AP, and assuming it to be such based on statements without any backing would be a stretch. It does give a sense of decent reality warping tho.
- 3,719
- 2,761
"Assuming it to be such based on statements without any backing would be a stretch"
Gee, where were you when half of this wiki's profiles were made?
Sonic only has statements to support his FTL feats. Cipher only has statements and LITERALLY no showings of universal power but he's rated that high. Hell, the ******* vague "Six thoughts" statements for Alien X was even considered. Characters being claimed to destroy univeraes is used as some justfications.
And again. "All of reality" and "warping the cosmos" DO relate to the universe as "cosmos" is defined as a synonymous word for "universe" and that backs up the fact that their universe is grounded in their reality which Discord can apparently control via his powers. We have a character who can harness said power backing the statements the character in question has made. That's all we meeded for ******* Sonic and Bill Cipher, so why can't we apply it here?
To not apply these in some fashion would mean discrediting the reasoning behind those character's profiles as well. Or how about characters being stated to be above a dimension and suddenly we have them at multiversal despite a lack of direct feats? IIRC Composite Ghidorah has a "possibly" rating based on a throwaway statement like that.
Gee, where were you when half of this wiki's profiles were made?
Sonic only has statements to support his FTL feats. Cipher only has statements and LITERALLY no showings of universal power but he's rated that high. Hell, the ******* vague "Six thoughts" statements for Alien X was even considered. Characters being claimed to destroy univeraes is used as some justfications.
And again. "All of reality" and "warping the cosmos" DO relate to the universe as "cosmos" is defined as a synonymous word for "universe" and that backs up the fact that their universe is grounded in their reality which Discord can apparently control via his powers. We have a character who can harness said power backing the statements the character in question has made. That's all we meeded for ******* Sonic and Bill Cipher, so why can't we apply it here?
To not apply these in some fashion would mean discrediting the reasoning behind those character's profiles as well. Or how about characters being stated to be above a dimension and suddenly we have them at multiversal despite a lack of direct feats? IIRC Composite Ghidorah has a "possibly" rating based on a throwaway statement like that.
ÆONS
He/Him- 1,489
- 1,035
Personally, there is no reason to establish any solid tiering for Discord besides High 4-C. Thinking otherwise, either in support or opposition, would be quite foolish to me. While I do agree that many other profiles need a to of work, I prefer to keep the topic in specific reference to MLP, particularly Discord. To be perfectly honest, AKM Sama has illustrated most of my doubts with this upgrade, yet to me still these statements closely outline an "At least High 4-C, possibly 3-A" for Discord. I am still gonna wait for more staff input before I completely solidify my position, especially ffrom Ultima since I have heard he's an expert in certain things like this.
- 167,867
- 76,494
I agree about that we shouldn't use poor scaling standards for Discord just because other profiles are already unreliable in this manner.
@AKM
Do you think that "At least High 4-C, possibly 3-A" would be acceptable for Discord, or just "At least High 4-C"?
@AKM
Do you think that "At least High 4-C, possibly 3-A" would be acceptable for Discord, or just "At least High 4-C"?
- 7,550
- 7,739
@Foxthefox1000
You have to admit that Discord's statements, sans Pinkie's, aren't very direct.
For Sonic's FTL speed, it's supported by statements and a feat.
Alien X's 6 thought statement was brought up but rejected because it came from an art director and isn't supported in the show.
You have to admit that Discord's statements, sans Pinkie's, aren't very direct.
For Sonic's FTL speed, it's supported by statements and a feat.
Alien X's 6 thought statement was brought up but rejected because it came from an art director and isn't supported in the show.
- 10,971
- 4,941
Infinite powers does not mean having infinite power.It just means that he a lot of abilities
- 7,550
- 7,739
@Antvasima I vote for At least High 4-C, possibly 3-A for now.
- 1,939
- 266
Shouldn't we wait until the episodes officially air before doing these discussions? I mean, they were leaked.
- 12
- 13
Seems kinda like reaching to keep Discord star level at this point. He has consistent statements and feats to show he is far above that. Tirek absorbing him and being relative to Twilight is no longer a factor as we know he couldn't actuall use Discords magic
With Pinkies statement about being able to transform the cosmos to icing and other lines and feats... Seems to me Discord would be universal, and random point but in the later seasons it's clear the writers were pushing Discord more and more into the "all powerful being" like role.
With Pinkies statement about being able to transform the cosmos to icing and other lines and feats... Seems to me Discord would be universal, and random point but in the later seasons it's clear the writers were pushing Discord more and more into the "all powerful being" like role.
- 11,135
- 14,120
I can't comment on other instances where statements are accpeted because they are evaluated on a case-by-case basis where it has to be supported by scaling, narrative, reliable characters and other things. Bringing other verses into it isn't a strong argument for suggesting an upgrade. (Thanos's 3-A statement was even more direct and he still isn't 3-A yet.)
Our policy has always been feats > statements and I don't see anything backing up such a big claim in a reasonable fashion.
It doesn't help when the only direct statement suggesting a possibly 3-A rating via reality warping starts with "I feel like...", which is generally used for hype and boasting. For example there was this one character who said "I feel like I could destroy the universe". On it's own, that statement by that particular character would never have been considered, but it was already supported by the scaling to the point where it wasn't even necessary.
@Ant
You follow the show. What do you think about the context and reliability of the third statement (and even second while you're at it)?
Our policy has always been feats > statements and I don't see anything backing up such a big claim in a reasonable fashion.
It doesn't help when the only direct statement suggesting a possibly 3-A rating via reality warping starts with "I feel like...", which is generally used for hype and boasting. For example there was this one character who said "I feel like I could destroy the universe". On it's own, that statement by that particular character would never have been considered, but it was already supported by the scaling to the point where it wasn't even necessary.
@Ant
You follow the show. What do you think about the context and reliability of the third statement (and even second while you're at it)?
- 167,867
- 76,494
Well, the third is clearly unreliable, and the other two likely lack sufficient proof and context. I think that they are enough to warrant "At least High 4-C, likely higher" though, but am open for changing my mind based on input from other staff members.
- 6,594
- 1,713
@AKM Sama Isn't Thanos not 3-A for the fact that he nearly broke the IG doing a smaller feat?
- 12
- 13
Pinkie Pie doesn't say "I feel like" In the english version nor in the script.
Twilight asks Pinkie how she feels after taking his magic to which Pinkie Responds: Tingly, itchy, alsoooo I COULD TRANSFORM THE COSMOS SO EVERYTHING IS MADE OF ICING!!!!
When she says this Everything beyond the patch the main character are standing on becomes pink misty icing(?) and confections and candy's are flying everywhere
Twilight asks Pinkie how she feels after taking his magic to which Pinkie Responds: Tingly, itchy, alsoooo I COULD TRANSFORM THE COSMOS SO EVERYTHING IS MADE OF ICING!!!!
When she says this Everything beyond the patch the main character are standing on becomes pink misty icing(?) and confections and candy's are flying everywhere
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,281
- 4,044
The Pony of Shadows.Antvasima said:
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,281
- 4,044
He still has to be comparable in terms of raw power to absorb Discord. Also, just because he couldn't control his powers doesn't mean he's not Discord level. It's just because it takes a certain amount of skill, not power.Drunkfrank said:
- 12
- 13
Except Twilight does say the villains are more powerful than ever with Grogars magic, and Cozy with Discords magic is more powerful than all of them combined.
The only argument against this is Tirek is not as massive as he was in Twilight's Kingdom, but his size growth has been inconsistent since...ever, especially in season 9.
It's a matter of having the skill to use Discords magic makes you the most powerful being in the verse, this could not be more confirmed unless they spelled it out for the audience.
Also don't see how the pony of shadows is relative to Discord as you say above, is it just because he tanked an EoH blast but the blast didn't have the element of magic being used at the time, so it isn't the same thing. When evaluating writer intent it can be hard to get a 100% answer but Discord has been pushed more and more as the most powerful character in the MLP universe if you do not count the spirit of the tree I guess.
The only argument against this is Tirek is not as massive as he was in Twilight's Kingdom, but his size growth has been inconsistent since...ever, especially in season 9.
It's a matter of having the skill to use Discords magic makes you the most powerful being in the verse, this could not be more confirmed unless they spelled it out for the audience.
Also don't see how the pony of shadows is relative to Discord as you say above, is it just because he tanked an EoH blast but the blast didn't have the element of magic being used at the time, so it isn't the same thing. When evaluating writer intent it can be hard to get a 100% answer but Discord has been pushed more and more as the most powerful character in the MLP universe if you do not count the spirit of the tree I guess.
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,281
- 4,044
There are things that suggest Discord is the greatest being in the verse (besides, as you said, the tree), but I think there are many more things overall that suggest he's just a high tier with cool abilities.
It's definitely possible that this Tirek is only as strong as he was during his Canterlot invasion, considering he got hurt by a blast from Twilight, and in general the three don't seem to be much stronger than slightly above Alicorn level (Cozy)-decently above Alicorn Level (Tirek). Actually, the huge Cozy thing could still make sense. Let's say Tirek and Chrysalis in these forms are about 1.5x alicorn level. Cozy is at least 1x alicorn level, and so Discord would only have to be 2x alicorn level for the statement to make sense and not imply Discord as the strongest being in the verse. Sure, there's the stronger than ever argument, but I think that was just meant to be hype more than anything else.
Actually, he momentarily tanked a blast from the full set, plus the pillars, Starlight, and Sunburst after Twilight talked to Stygian, while Discord immediately lost to just one set of the elements. And the wiki has decided to say that Stygian's power is equal to his durability.
Um, not exactly. He's just as strong as ever, which is above every regular character, but weaker than a few villains and the tree. He actually wasn't even able to escape Chrysalis' binds, which could just be PIS to an extent, but that's just something to think about if you're going to say he's been implied as the strongest character in the verse.
Also you didn't refute the fact that it's been shown again and again that Tirek can't absorb from beings equal to or above him. You could argue Discord would win in a fight against him with his hax, but if it's a contest of who can generate more joules of energy, Tirek would win.
It's definitely possible that this Tirek is only as strong as he was during his Canterlot invasion, considering he got hurt by a blast from Twilight, and in general the three don't seem to be much stronger than slightly above Alicorn level (Cozy)-decently above Alicorn Level (Tirek). Actually, the huge Cozy thing could still make sense. Let's say Tirek and Chrysalis in these forms are about 1.5x alicorn level. Cozy is at least 1x alicorn level, and so Discord would only have to be 2x alicorn level for the statement to make sense and not imply Discord as the strongest being in the verse. Sure, there's the stronger than ever argument, but I think that was just meant to be hype more than anything else.
Actually, he momentarily tanked a blast from the full set, plus the pillars, Starlight, and Sunburst after Twilight talked to Stygian, while Discord immediately lost to just one set of the elements. And the wiki has decided to say that Stygian's power is equal to his durability.
Um, not exactly. He's just as strong as ever, which is above every regular character, but weaker than a few villains and the tree. He actually wasn't even able to escape Chrysalis' binds, which could just be PIS to an extent, but that's just something to think about if you're going to say he's been implied as the strongest character in the verse.
Also you didn't refute the fact that it's been shown again and again that Tirek can't absorb from beings equal to or above him. You could argue Discord would win in a fight against him with his hax, but if it's a contest of who can generate more joules of energy, Tirek would win.
- 31,471
- 34,337
Absorb their magic is more so hax rather than AP; then when absorbed by it the technically have the power. Even if they can't quite control it, but being unable to control the power might mean the power isn't combat applicable.
- 6,594
- 1,713
I mean, being an AP thing is literally a limit for his absorption on his profile page.DarkDragonMedeus said:
Similar threads
