My Little Pony: Equestria Girls Upgrade Top-Tiers : " At least Low 2-C "

[Lightbuster30]

Bottom line: Neither Midnight in LoE nor Gloriosa have any feats that suggest a Low 2-C. Midnight by herself has no control over anything outside of Sci-Twi's head, Gloriosa only ever fights individual 4-Bs (assuming we scale the HuMane 5 based on their pony counterparts with Elements). Going by that, I suggest 4-B for Gloriosa and the geode forms.

But the pony elements scale to the EQG ones, so Gloriosa would still be Low 2-C, just a lower version of it.

Can I just say how bullshit this headcanon is? We are given no reasons to assume Midnight somehow lost power, and the only possible way she could be 4-B is if she somehow lost power. But she's treated by the characters as just a big a threat as she was before. This is pure ******* headcanon with nothing backing it up. It's an arbitrary assumption that because they didn't show any feats, it instantly means they lost power they previously had. Hey guys, Celestia got taken out by a bug. Guess she lost power too and isn't Solar System level anymore...because...reasons? I mean, the bug has no feats, and Celestia didn't destroy the Solar System that time, so it must make sense right? Right? But seriously, we're given no indications that Midnight is any weaker than before.

Not to mention how utterly ******* stupid the headcanon is. Where does 4-B even come from? "Via scaling to the EoH." Nuh uh, nope. By your own logic, the Elements got weaker because reasons and Midnight hasn't shown feats putting her there. Sorry, but your words, not mine. Oh well. I guess the Human EoH decided that the best way to "evolve and grow" was by making themselves infinitely weaker.

Sorry @GokuSparkle, I know it sounds like I'm talking to you, but I just can't stand the logic being used to say Gloriosa doesn't scale. It makes no sense to me at all.

I don't think Sci-Twi needs to beat a literal Low 2-C in order for the climax to have emotional impact. I always saw it as more symbolic for Sci-Twi making a determined decision to let go of her past, which is the emotional core of the scene... Not suddenly getting enough power to destroy a multiverse with a single pony-up (!). Midnight not being ridiculously strong doesn't take anything from it.
How can you miss the point by so much? My point wasn't that she had to beat a Low 2-C, my point was that beating a weakened Midnight Sparkle would water down the impact. All that fear came from Midnight's power. Because of what Midnight was doing to the world. It's made clear that Twilight fears Midnight's power because of what Midnight did with that power. And what was it she did with it? Overcoming Midnight and the power she feared was a huge part of character development for Twilight. Requiring her be watered down just for Twilight to overcome Midnight and her fears is honestly kinda a slap to the face. It justifies Twilight fears because it means she truly is too weak for Midnight; barely able to hold her own against even a watered down quote-unquote "remnant".

Midnight made it clear she'd do it again if she ever got the chance. You think having the confidence to try and pull off a Low 2-C feat is how a 4-B would act? Unless...maybe...she didn't get weaker? All you have suggesting Midnight is weaker is your pure headcanon. The characters don't treat her like that. The movie doesn't treat her like that. Even Midnight herself doesn't treat her like that.

One more thing: Sunset Shimmer is blatantly talking about Twilight being literally stronger. Twilight fears and discusses with Sunset that using too much magic is going to trigger Midnight and grant her power again, fearing being overwhelmed by her own magic. And we see this is indeed the case near the climax, with Twilight beginning to take on the appearance of Midnight and Midnight making her move. Twilight overcoming Midnight means she's overcoming the strength of her own magic and getting it under her control, rather than being under the magics control like in The Friendship Games. Losing to Midnight means losing to the magic, she was afterall, created by the magics influence. Twilight even points this out when talking to Sunset.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Oh, and the entire logic of Midnight being weaker because Twilight overcame her completely falls apart when you realise she was losing until her friends came along and gave her support.

 

[PeaceOnTheRise]

I don't think this is a fair comparison. At every single point in the series, other than A Royal Problem, Celestia is shown consistently as a physical being within the "main" reality. She can affect reality around her directly, unlike Midnight.

Once again, you keep talking about the climax itself, but my main point isn't even that: it's that, in FG, Midnight overtook Sci-Twi momentarily. If she remained just as strong after having been banished to whatever depths of Twilight's consciousness, she could've done possessed her just as easily at any moment. But she doesn't.

You also seem to think I'm implying that Midnight wouldn't be a threat if she possessed Sci-Twi. No, I'm not denying that if Midnight had actually fully possessed Sci-Twi, she'd be able to interact with reality fully again, possibly on the same Low 2-C level. I always thought this was similar to the Bill Cipher situation, where he has two completely different tiers depending on whether he can interact with reality. So, once again: she could hypothetically return to her FG state and wreck havoc if Sci-Twi let her, it's just that this never happens.

Regarding the HuMane 5 pony-ups being low 2-C individually, this isn't on their profiles so I don't know what the consensus and the reasoning here is. But IIRC their greatest individual feat is Rarity damaging Aria with her constructs. The Dazzlings have low 2-C, but they have a collective profile, since they lack individual feats, so Aria's own tier is moot. That's why I suggested scaling them to their pony counterparts.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I don't think this is a fair comparison. At every single point in the series, other than A Royal Problem, Celestia is shown consistently as a physical being within the "main" reality. She can affect reality around her directly, unlike Midnight.

Sure it is. And don't try to change your argument. Your argument wasn't "She can't interact with reality." your argument was "She had a harder time taking over Twilight than before, therefore she is a remnant." Do I have to quote your previous texts?

I never implied it was just Sci-Twi going insane. Midnight's personality was definitely trying to get in control of her, but that's entirely the reaso why I doubt this remnant of Midnight is just as strong as in FG. She had no trouble possessing Sci-Twi back then, but now Sci-Twi is able to fight back.
Midnight's tier in LoE is hard to measure in the first place, since Midnight by herself doesn't interact with reality in any way, she's only able to do that via attempting to possess Sci-Twi. So it's Possession vs attempts to resist it, which doesn't translate to AP, durability or any concrete stat.
This is what I'm arguing against. I know you've said that Midnight didn't interact with reality in your previous comment, which sounds counterintuitive to what I said. But in that comment your phrasing gives me impression that you're saying she lacked any feats, not that Celestia was physical while Midnight is not. So, yes, my comparison still stands.

Once again, you keep talking about the climax itself, but my main point isn't even that: it's that, in FG, Midnight overtook Sci-Twi momentarily. If she remained just as strong after having been banished to whatever depths of Twilight's consciousness, she could've done possessed her just as easily at any moment. But she doesn't.
And MY main point is that Twilight barely being able to overcome a watered down scrap of Midnight undermines her character development for overcoming her fear of Midnight. Also, that's blatantly false. I'm not going to point out for the umpteenth time why this logic is ****** up. It proves Twilight grew stronger. Just like Sunset told her to. Now can we stop going over already talked about points? I literally just finished talking about this argument in the first paragraph of this very comment. It's literally right there in the transcript. And I've already explained how she has to be literally stronger and not just mentally. But I'm more than happy to go over it again (I'm being sarcastic, please do not force me to explain it again).

You also seem to think I'm implying that Midnight wouldn't be a threat if she possessed Sci-Twi. No, I'm not denying that if Midnight had actually fully possessed Sci-Twi, she'd be able to interact with reality fully again, possibly on the same Low 2-C level.
And you seem to be completely missing my point. I never said that you said she wouldn't be a threat if she possessed Twilight. I said that Midnight is consistently treated as the same threat she was in the previous film. There is no "possibly" going on here. She straight up is. Her exact plan is to immediately go back to what she did in The Friendship Games. She makes this very clear when talking with Twilight.

I always thought this was similar to the Bill Cipher situation, where he has two completely different tiers depending on whether he can interact with reality. So, once again: she could hypothetically return to her FG state and wreck havoc if Sci-Twi let her, it's just that this never happens.
Oh boy, looks like I do have to re-explain my point. You want to accuse me of bad examples? This is a bad example. Bill is a 2D being trapped in a parallel Universe between Universes. That's all he has going for him in this comparison. Midnight Sparkle is an alter ego created by Twilight being overwhelmed by her own Magic. Midnight only has true power over Twilight when she uses too much magic for her to handle. Twilight overcoming Midnight is the same thing as overcoming her own magic. Midnight is Twilight's power in some ways. She is linked to Twilight's power. She literally wouldn't exist if Twilight hadn't overdosed on Magic. Twilight literally confirms that too much magic is what created Midnight and rightfully fears this will happen again. That's why Midnight doesn't immediately take over at any point she feels like. That's why she has to wait for Twilight to draw on her power: Because the power is what's doing the corrupting.

Regarding the HuMane 5 pony-ups being low 2-C individually, this isn't on their profiles so I don't know what the consensus and the reasoning here is. But IIRC their greatest individual feat is Rarity damaging Aria with her constructs. The Dazzlings have low 2-C, but they have a collective profile, since they lack individual feats, so Aria's own tier is moot. That's why I suggested scaling them to their pony counterparts.
I never once claimed the Elements of Harmony were individually Low 2-C. I think I remember @The 2nd Existential Seed saying that, but I know I didn't. What I said was: The Elements of Harmony are able to undo a tier 2 threat with 5 out of 6 Elements. I never said they were individually at that level. However, given there's only 3 Dazzlings, you can fairly safely say they'd be tier 2 or very dangerously close since 3 isn't a huge number to divide by. I'll have to ask @The 2nd Existential Seed for his reasoning.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Made a small, but important edit to my 5th paragraph.

 

[Antvasima]

We still need more staff input here.

 

[PeaceOnTheRise]

Once again, I'm not arguing that if she got in control of Sci-Twi, Midnight wouldn't be Low 2-C. I'm arguing that she's factually incapable of pulling Low 2-C feats while trapped in Sci-Twi's mind (besides, she appeared randomly in her dreams, not only during the moments of Sci-Twi attempting to use magic), so Sci-Twi overcoming her doesn't warrant a Low 2-C. Outside of this one vague line from Sunset, there's nothing that proves Sci-Twi actually had to apply enough power to destroy a multiverse to purge Midnight from herself, and even that one line could be interpreted in various different ways. The power output is unclear in the first place because the entire thing is not even happening in the "main" realiity. I just think giving pony-up Sci-Twi Low 2-C based on that alone is unreasonable, especially since she never demonstrates anything on the Low 2-C scale afterwards. I think scaling her to Gloriosa is a bit more reasonable, but Gloriosa herself has to be scaled first. And regarding Gloriosa, her Low 2-C is even less likely for reasons stated above.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Once again, I'm not arguing that if she got in control of Sci-Twi, Midnight wouldn't be Low 2-C. I'm arguing that she's factually incapable of pulling Low 2-C feats while trapped in Sci-Twi's mind (besides, she appeared randomly in her dreams, not only during the moments of Sci-Twi attempting to use magic),

I already explained why overpowering Midnight means overpowering her magic at the same time, but if I have to go into even more details, then I will:

Midnight is already near her full power in Twilight's mind. HOWEVER. She is only close to her former levels of strength in the mind when Twilight uses too much magic. Because again, Midnight isn't actually taking over, at least not in the way we think. Rather, the magic is just corrupting Twilight all over again. By definition, in order to resist "Midnight" she has to be strong enough to overcome the corrupting influence of her own magic, else she'll transform all over again. The fact that Twilight can keep herself under control at full power means she can handle levels of magic that are great enough to induce a Midnight transformation. I repeat myself: Midnight can not take over Twilight if Twilight is not using enough magic to trigger her.

so Sci-Twi overcoming her doesn't warrant a Low 2-C.
Oh contraire. I've given plenty of evidence that would require Twilight overcoming her being Low 2-C. You just said in your previous paragraph that if Midnight took over she might be able to pull off her Low 2-C feat. Ok, let me re-phrase that: You didn't say it outright, but you very very heavily implied it.

Where exactly do you think that power comes from? "From Midnight" Ah, ah ah, nope, no it doesn't. Midnight gets power because of the Magic inside of Twilight. Midnight gains power from it. The Magic is already there, and Midnight is triggered by trying to use it. She's not pulling the magic to perform a Low 2-C feat out of nowhere. As I've said before, Midnight has no power until Twilight tries using her magic. That's what grants Midnight strength. If Midnight were to break free, she'd already be Low 2-C because she has enough magic to re-create the Midnight transformation.

The narrative makes this monumentally clear. We've been over this so many times by now.

Outside of this one vague line from Sunset
Oh cha, it's totally vague. Lets get something straight here: It's only a vague line because you say it is. You've done nothing that proves her word is unreliable. All you have is your headcanon.

The power output is unclear in the first place because the entire thing is not even happening in the "main" realiity.
Holy shit, how can you miss my points this badly? Do you see me trying to argue she was affecting the main reality in the mindscape? Do you?

I just think giving pony-up Sci-Twi Low 2-C based on that alone is unreasonable, especially since she never demonstrates anything on the Low 2-C scale afterwards.
And I just think pretending that Pony-Up Twilight overpowering the magic responsible for the creation of Midnight not being Low 2-C is even more unreasonable. Like, give me one benefit they would have to Pony Up Twilight ******* over reality with her now-under-control-power?

Just remember: Celestia isn't 4-B because she never destroys Solar Systems in combat.

I think scaling her to Gloriosa is a bit more reasonable, but Gloriosa herself has to be scaled first. And regarding Gloriosa, her Low 2-C is even less likely for reasons stated above.
Your "reasons" amount to trying to claim they said they couldn't Pony Up in order to prove the geode Pony Ups don't use the Magic of Friendship.

You still haven't refuted Gloriosa having enough power to crush 6 pony up forms at once. "Oh but like I said earlier: It's PIS." Ah, so, more headcanon? "But they didn't even try to blast her." Yeah. So what? That stops her from crushing them.....how? You do realize the Pony Up forms also affects their durability too right? "The Pony Ups were breaking her vines, so if they tried blasting her together, they probably could have won." HAH! Now that is Plot Induced Stupidity. You said the Pony Ups are what? 4-B via scaling to Low 2-C Pony Elements? Timber Spruce was also damaging the vines. High 4-C fodder via scratch damage? Really, the mere fact that the vines were about to kill them all in one go automatically puts that out of commission.

 

[Antvasima]

@Lightbuster

You immediately need to tone down the hostile and disrespectful language.

 

[Antvasima]

We still need more staff input here.

Also...

 

[Lightbuster30]

@Antvasima, I repeatedly have to deal with the exact same arguments, often having to restate things I've already stated because the opposition overlooked or misinterpreted it. You cannot imagine how irritating I find that.

 

[Lightbuster30]

But sure everyone. The Human Magic of Friendship totally decided the best way to evolve was by becoming infinitely weaker. That makes perfect sense.

One more argument that got ignored. Lets see if it stays that way this time.

 

[Antvasima]

As I mentioned, we still need more staff input.

Also, cartoons and comicbooks are recurrently extremely inconsistent due to their main target audience. Gloriosa did not display anything remotely approaching universal scale, so I find Low 2-C everybody quite unlikely.

In addition, dealing with a single or a few discussions or tasks at a time should not be sufficiently mentally straining to excuse rude and disrespectful behaviour. I constantly have to deal with far greater stress/strain than that when I work at my normal pace.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I am more concerned about reaching a conclusion. Right now, conclusions need to be reached.

Not a good enough excuse. Excuse me, did anyone see Gloriosa try and fail to do anything remotely universal? Was she even interested in trying? No? Then it's not an argument. She powerscales via being superior to Standard Pony Up forms, and threatening to crush all of them at once. Either explain why the Magic of Friendship deciding to make itself weaker by an entire degree of infinity is sensible to do, despite being stated to grow, or there is no argument.

First: You having more stress than me does not mean I am not allowed to express stress. Second: I have far more factors going on in my life than just verses topics. Verses topics are just the cherry on top.

 

[Antvasima]

As I keep saying, in order to reach a conclusion we need more staff input. I would appreciate if somebody asks some of them to help out.

You can select some of the following suggestions:

Promestei, SomebodyData, The real cal howard, Dragonmasterxyz, Celestial Pegasus, Dark649, Soldier Blue, Monarch Laciel, Saikou The Lewd King, DarkDragonMedeus, Andytrenom, AKM sama, Wokista, Ultima Reality, Mr. Bambu, Gemmysaur, Theglassman12, Qawsedf234, Crabwhale, Crimson Azoth, Sir Ovens, Warren Valio, The Calaca, Zark2099, ByAsura, GyroNutz

 

[Antvasima]

I also have more problems than this going on, but still try hard to be respectful, except when I get extremely overloaded.

 

[PeaceOnTheRise]

1) As I already stated, Midnight was casually haunting Sci-Twi's dreams, even without Sci-Twi using any sort of magic. I was always under the impression that corruption only happened to those in the EQG world who tried to use the Elements' magic (meant to be used collectively) completely by themselves (Sunset, Sci-Twi, Gloriosa). You could argue it depended on the intentions, and that probably plays its part too, but Sci-Twi never had malicious intentions pre-Midnight In FG, so I doubt that's the deciding factor. In LoE, Sci-Twi was only ever using the natural magic of her own Element, so while it probably made it easier for Midnight to posses her, I wouldn't say it was corruption. It could be Sci-Twi worrying about needing to maintain so much concentration to use magic that she's not able to fight Midnight off. The way I see it, if Midnight possessed Sci-Twi, she'd be Low 2-C due to being able to use her offensive capabilities to interact with reality on that level again, i.e. what literally constitutes a Low 2-C... Thing is, her potential capabilities don't necessarily mean anything when she factually doesn't have control over anything outside of Sci-Twi's head. I suppose the best thing we could claim based on this is that her Possession was Low 2-C, but even if we accept that, Sci-Twi resisting it would just be an outlier then, since, once again, she never performs any other Low 2-C feats. That, of course, depends on where we land on the Gloriosa debate, since overpowering her is the only other potential Low 2-C feat for Sci-Twi. Which leads me to...

2) We only know that Gloriosa's vines would eventually be able to break Rarity's shield. I doubt they'd actually crush the HuMane 7, I'm not even sure Gloriosa was going to kill them in the first place, or only subdue them. Remember, Timber was surrounded and squeezed by her vines in a similar way and he survived. Between this, never directly overpowering the combined power of Humane 5/6/7 and not having other potential Low 2-C feats in general, Low 2-C seems less and less likely for her.

3) Regarding MoF deciding to become infinitely weaker: it didn't. The combined power of the Elements still could be Low 2-C, it's their individual ones that are unclear. And I doubt they can be measured by simply dividing the combined power by the number of Elements. Throughout the various instances in the show/EqG it is implied that the Elements are far stronger when their power is combined (Twilight with her single working element being completely ineffective against Discord as opposed to stomping him with the entire EoH set, Sunset's demon form with the element of magic being weaker than the rest of the Elements and inifinitely weaker than Midnight who harnessed and combined the magic of 6 elements, Gloriosa picking up two more geodes for a significant increase in power), which leads me to assume the full power of the Elements as a whole is more than just the sum of their individual powers, possibly increasing exponentially with each element added. Of course, then there's the matter of the Dazzlings: we don't know whether their power increases exponentially or linearly. Aria could be 1/3rd of Low 2-C... Hey, now that I think about it, why do the Dazzlings have Low 2-C to begin with? Their primes are 4-B, and they're considered to be stronger than their primes in RR because... they were fighting the combined power of the Elements that warranted a Low 2-C power-up in a later movie. Do you see where I'm going with this? Couldn't the Elements have evolved between the climaxes of DR and FG? Going by that logic, if we consider the individual Rarity vs. Aria feat 4-B, it lines up perfectly with the Dazzlings' prime tier AND the original Mane 5 tiers.

4) I personally don't think you're being too rude, though maybe a bit emotional. But I'm sorry if my posts caused you any discomfort. If I don't reply to something, it usually means I think I've already addressed this while talking about some other point.

I've messaged some of the people Antvasima suggested. Hopefully they take the time to post in this thread, though if they don't I'll probably keep going through the entire list, someone should probably react eventually.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Really? You messaged Dragonmastersxyz? The guy doesn't even like My Little Pony. How can I be certain he won't be against the upgrades for '''anyone''' because of that?

 

[Antvasima]

I trust his sense of judgement. Being extremely positive about a franchise is not necessary in order to evaluate it. In fact, protective fan attitudes can potentially induce bias.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Maybe I wouldn't be so protecive if I didn't have to defend things that are so obvious you'd have to be literally blind to not see it. Seriously, the things I've been saying have been thrown in fans faces throughout the movie. But apparently heavy implications and occam's razor isn't good enough anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

I didn't refer to you.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Also, cartoons and comicbooks are recurrently extremely inconsistent due to their main target audience. Gloriosa did not display anything remotely approaching universal scale, so I find Low 2-C everybody quite unlikely.

Twilight's best shown feats are at best tier 7 or 8, but she's 4-B because of scaling. Just because Gloriosa hasn't shown Universal+ feats doesn't mean she's 7-B or whatever her one big feat implies.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Especially when her one big feat took literally no effort and the actual scaling aspect took more effort than her big feat did.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Especially when her one big feat took literally no effort and the actual scaling aspect took more effort than her big feat did.

So, what are your thoughts on the situation?

 

[Lightbuster30]

1. No one cares if Midnight was haunting her dreams, she's still powerless to do anything remotely resembling possession until Twilight decides to use her magic at or near it's full power. It proves absolutely nothing. Do I really have to point out that the magic she got just by being in the mere presence of the geodes was enough to threaten a Midnight transformation when she used it to it's full potential? Nope, it's not an outlier. Once Twilight began using the magic it was Midnight's mind verses Twilight's mind. They were both fighting for control of the magic. Twilight only overpowered her once she realized she had the Magic of Friendship within her. Oh, and encouragement from her friends.

Nope, wrong again. Twilight explicitly states that Midnight was created by the magic corrupting her into a monster. Twilight bemoans that magic; Not Midnight, turned her into a monster. She then bemoans how she fears it could happen once again.

Twilight Sparkle: Easy for you to say. Magic turned you into something beautiful. The last time I tried to use it, it turned me into a monster. I'm just so afraid it's gonna happen agai.
She makes it clear that magic is the direct cause of Midnight and it's made clear that Midnight is coming back due to the exact reasons as last time. And the movie is consistent with this.

2. The girls make it clear they can't do anything to Gloriosa. They make it clear that they can't do anything to the brambles and only Twilight can save them. "But they never try attacking her all at once." Doesn't matter. They still treat the situation as completely hopeless and view Twilight as their only chance. Secondly: Restraining all of them at once still counts as overpowering them all at once. Crushing them was only an extreme example of overpowering them. They'd still struggle against her, and are far far stronger than Timbur.

3. First: Up until the Equestria Girls series, I'm pretty sure it was implied to be impossible for the Magic of Friendship to fully activate until you had them all. And even then: Twilight never used her Element on Discord. If you're refering to the Bubble scene, she didn't try and fail to do anything. Her goal was getting them back to the ground. And considering we don't even know if she could use the Magic of her Element at that point, who knows what would have happened?

Second: The Dazzling's only ever attacked as individuals. I'll admit that on occaison, magic can be exponential when combined (Though the show is inconsistient about it). But combined? Naw. You can only ever argue magic is exponential if two people combine their beams into one joint beam, like Celestia and Luna did against Sombra. The Dazzlings on the other hand attacked individually. Even when attacking all at once, we can see the separate soundwaves coming off of their mouths.

But ok, fine. For one brief moment, let's just pretend that the soundwaves did coalesc into one soudwave. So what? Do you want to know what isn't exponential? Durability. And I'd also like to point out that the individual Elements are able to open dimensional rifts in the exact way Midnight was as shown in the Friendship games.

4. Uh, no no, the Elements didn't grow and evolve until Legends of Everfree, where their Pony Up forms got an upgrade and changed appearance completely. Here we go again ignoring things I've already stated. Like, I literally already argued against this and you go ahead and repeat it anyways. And to think people are confused as to why I'm so upset here. You make a point, and people argue like you said absolutely nothing. What a slap to the face.

But fine. I might as well repeat myself again:

See people, the only reason the Elements got stronger against the Dazzlings was because of Sunset Shimmer. Sunset Shimmer added an additional Element to the mix: The Element of Empathy. No, I'm not making this up, she's literally the Element of Empathy for those who don't know. That's how they evolved and grew stronger. I think they did grow and evolve, like turning into a geode form, but they didn't do that again until two movies after Rainbow Rocks. Are we seriously going to argue one additional Element made them literally more than infinitely stronger? Somehow holding more influence than the element of magic itself? Utter nonsense. Besides, as I've brought up countless times already, 5 out of the 6 Elements were enough to undo a threat to all of reality.

 

[Antvasima]

Calm down Lightbuster. Somebody disagreeing with you is not a particularly big deal, and I still disapprove of your hostile tone.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, since we do not get enough staff input, somebody should preferably ask more of them.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Up until my last paragraph, I've been snarky at best. The problem isn't being disagreed with. It's making an argument that I already countered without even bothering to address it. That tells me my arguments are being completely ignored.

 

[Antvasima]

I just don't have the energy to properly evaluate all of them. I am still tired and recovering. We need help from other staff.

 

[PeaceOnTheRise]

1. That still only gives Midnight potential Low 2-C Possession, nothing else. And I don't know why you insist that a Low 2-C level of magic usage is absolutely necessary for a transformation to occur. Even the quote posted by you suggests that any amount of magic used by Sci-Twi would be enough to get Midnight's attention. An obvious counterpoint would be that whenever Sci-Twi is using magic, it's Low 2-C by default, but that'd be false. At various points throughout EQG, Sci-Twi is seen using her powers on a way smaller scale.

2) I mean, the climax of Going To Seed treated Big Mac's faux threat seriously too up until the end. I suppose sleep-walking Big Mac should get his own profile with at least a 4-B tier, since Applejack was clearly afraid of him, yet showed no signs of fear against the strongest 4-B villains. In all seriousness, the way a narrative treats a situation is not always telling of the characters' actual capabilities, this is why this wiki has PIS as a concept in the first place. So, outside of explicit statements, however the situation was treated is mostly irrelevant and shouldn't be used as a basis for scaling, especially to such a high level. Even if Gloriosa managed to capture the HuMane 7, they could've potentially broke free because they were explicitly seen destroying her vines before. Once again: nothing suggests a Low 2-C for her.

3) I'm referring to this scene: https://youtu.be/mKRFhFJvYxY (1:47). Twilight's element is the only one working properly and it has zero effect on Discord.

I don't remember the S7 flashback, but in RR, the Dazzlings always sing together, because otherwise they can't achieve a powerful enough harmony. The only individual attack I can recall is Adagio overpowering Twilight, and she certainly doesn't need Low 2-C to do that. Even if their sound waves don't increase exponentially, that could still mean the three Dazzlings' powers combined were stronger than the Elements at the time, until Sunset's interference made their power rise exponentially. I don't see why durability wouldn't potentially increase exponentially via some magic barrier like the one that Rainbow Power put up against Tirek, but that's irrelevant in the first place, since even with Sunset, they never tank any attacks from the Dazzlings, they simply overwhelm them.

The rifts in FG are a good point, made me look it up and notice something we've been missing all along: Sci-Twi didn't just drain the magic from the Elements, she also drained it from the portal (it's a plot point that the portal was inactive up until Midnight was defeated, which is also a strong counterpoint against Sci-Twi by herself possessing any sort of reality-shattering magic afterwards). The magic of a literal portal is probably a huge part of, if not exactly the thing that gave Midnight the ability to tear reality into portals in the first place. So the Elements only scale to that level via Daydream, which could've been the exact point they evolved massively to combat Midnight's overwhelming power.


4) I don't remember every single post in this huge thread, especially the ones left before I joined the discussion. But Rainbow Power, for one, was explicitly a way for Equestrian MoF to grow and evolve. I agree that the EQG MoF didn't evolve in RR, but why couldn't they have evolved in FG? Daydream was a completely new form as well.

 

[Lightbuster30]

1. Twilight never says "any" amount of magic will trigger Midnight in that quote. She says magic turned her into a monster. She is clearly referencing the magic she wielded in the friendship games. Nowhere in that quote does it say "any" amount of magic grants her power. If anything, she's treating it as one and the same.

2. Oh my fu-are you ******* kidding me?! Like, WHAT? Applejack is 4-B via not being afraid of-. And Big Mac was-. What? I'm sorry, but my brain shut down there for a minute.

Ok. Let me read your paragraph again. Big Mac posed a faux threat to Applejack while sleepwalking. Therefore, because Applejack was scared of him yet unafraid of 4-B villains, that somehow makes him...4-B? You're not really going to force me to explain why this doesn't work right? To steal a quote from you: I don't think this is a fair comparison. And by "think" I mean "Know for absolute fact."

Being afraid of someone doesn't mean they are stronger than you. There's a massive difference between comically running the **** away and genuinely feeling like there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop a situation from happening. To say nothing of the fact that there are scores of characters who don't fear characters massively out of their weight class. But you probably already know that. And I bet you also know that those characters have reasons to not feel fear. Be it by being stupid enough not to, or something they have that gives them a chance But this? What was going on with Gloriosa? That wasn't fear. That was utter hopelessness. They didn't have some secret hax or contingency plan. What they needed was power, and absolutely none of them felt up to the task, even with 6 Pony Ups by their side gathered in one place.

Nope. Your logic still fails because regular humans were able to damage the vines. It's plot induced stupidity for the heroines, not Gloriosa.

3. How the hell. Do you interpret that. As Her Element. Not affecting him? She failed to stone Discord because the Elements couldn't activate to begin with. Literally the scene is a build up of the power of the Elements of Harmony, only for it to poof out of existence. Not only did Discord NOT tank an attack from Twilight's Element of Magic, but he wasn't even attacked to begin with. The things didn't even get the chance to attack him! He wasn't blasted or anything. There was light enveloping them like normal and thats it.

I don't know what movie you saw, but they attacked The Rainbooms with separate shockwaves the entire time. Not once did they combine their attacks in the same way Celestia and Luna did to Sombra. You can argue that they attacked at the same time, but attacking at the same time isn't the same thinhg as literally combining your attacks into one.

And what the hell is "a powerful enough harmony"? They gain power by feeding off negativity. Singing good doesn't make them stronger. I mean, it helps them grow stronger. But not in the sense that singing really good or harmoniously "literally" enhances their strength. Singing just allows them to feed on negative emotions, which is what makes them stronger. It's more of a catalyst that lets them feed.

What? I'm saying that standing together doesn't make your durability increase. If I stand next to another human does that suddenly mean you need exponentially more power to hurt us both?

Except for the part where the magic from the individual elements displayed reality tearing powers as they were being absorbed. So, there's that. Also, the fact that Daydream only had 5 Elements minus the portal magic and undid the damage. Oh, and as for the Elements evolving? Yeah, I have words to say on that, but I'll address that in point 4. Speaking of.

4. Are you joking? So transforming suddenly means it "evolved"? Yeah, no, this is pure headcanon. We've seen humans transform when they use magic, particularly the Rainbooms. "Oh, but Sunset Shimmer looked different. That must mea-" It means she looked different because she used 5 Elements at once. No shit she'll look different. That doesn't mean she made the Magic of Friendship evolve.

 

[Antvasima]

As I keep saying, in order to reach a conclusion we need more staff input. I would appreciate if somebody asks some of them to help out.

You can select some of the following suggestions:

Promestei, SomebodyData, The real cal howard, Dragonmasterxyz, Celestial Pegasus, Dark649, Soldier Blue, Monarch Laciel, Saikou The Lewd King, DarkDragonMedeus, Andytrenom, AKM sama, Wokista, Ultima Reality, Mr. Bambu, Gemmysaur, Theglassman12, Qawsedf234, Crabwhale, Crimson Azoth, Sir Ovens, Warren Valio, The Calaca, Zark2099, ByAsura, GyroNutz

^

 

[ÆONS]

Oh dear there's a lot of text thrown around. I'll put in my best input once I am done reading most, if not all, of the comments.

 

[ÆONS]

I'm probably going to split my responses to two since there's a lot of information to unpack, I'll try my best though.

1) I agree to the idea that Gloriosa scales to Midnight/Daydream due to the logic that the Geodes give her a massive boost of power in the same way they did towards the girls when they were actually working. Refer to Seed's comments and responses from earlier for more detail about this. It is also clear that she was using raw power and it was presented to the audience what was going on so there is no reason to assume a "Possibly/Likely Low 2-C" for the Geodes users like I originally thought. Overall, I think Seeds is correct in his analysis of the Geodes users.

2) I agree that the Dazzlings should be roughly equal to Midnight since the power they displayed have been shown to be greater than the pony-up forms of all the characters in Rainbow Rocks. Which,.to refer to one of Seed's claims, is them overpowering 6 elements, while Daydream had the power of 5, implying that the Dazzlings together are stronger than Daydream (It might be that the Dazzlings seperately are weaker than Daydream). Note earlier that i said "roughly equal to Midnight" since they may be slightly weaker than or stronger than Midnight. Overall, the Dazzlings also get the Low 2-C tier.

3) I disagree with Peach's idea that Midnight and Daydream used hax to mess up the two universes since it was clearly shown in the movie that they were both using raw power and strength with their magic. Literally nothing in the movie even remotely implies that the girls used a specific ability or spell that causes immense damage to the universes. It's recommendable that Peach either rewatch the movie or consult a knowledgable member for more details about the clash.

4) I disagree with Light's stance that Midnight/Daydream and any characters who scale to them are not 2-C, and I think his logic is a bit fallacious. Light argues that Midnight may not actually be destroying the two universes for the main reasons; 1) It would not be of her intent to destroy the Pony universe since it is so valuable to her. 2) She was not destroying the two universes at once. The first reason does not work with me because it does not matter what a person's intent to do osmething may be, what they actually do or cause is what matters most. If someone pushes another over and they fall to a sharp rock on the back of their head and die, whether or not the person intended to kill is meaningless since he commited murder. This is the sort of situation I saw with Midnight's clash with the heroines and what she was doing to the two universes. It does not matter what she was intending to do with the Pony Universe or the Human Universe, or even both of them, the fact remains was that she was tearing apart both of the world's entire realities. The ponies in that universe may not have reacted substantially to the damage, but is evident that Midnight's magic and power display was affecting their world in that it was going to collapse or be destroyed since they were reacting to the rifts and those rifts were visible. Assuming the Human world is completely destroyed, even if Midnight somehow spares the pony universe, it would be very likely for that universe to be almost completely destroyed or damaged to the point of being unrecognizable. That to me would be a 2-C feat, even if it weren't completely so since it would be very close to being as such. We can argue all day about Evil Twilight's intentions, but the fact that she can do all this damage won't change. Even assuming neither world is eradicated, it was already accepted before that Midnight and Daydream would get 2-C tiers because of how close they were to achieving it despite the universes not being destroyed, as you claim they should. To address the second reason, she was indeed destroying the two universes at once. Even if progression was taken into account, it would be very likely for both to be destroyed at roughly the same time. That would still be a 2-C feat since both universes were eradicated, if not extremely close to one. Even if she failed to completely eradicate the two worlds, she was tearing apart the two realities, which again is accepted as roughly a 2-C feat. These are why I think the downgrade from Low Multiversal to Universal+ was incorrect.

5) Please keep your cool Light. I know how frustrated you can get by people from Peach (or maybe me) but make sure to keep your act together. Otherwise it can cause some harm.

EDIT - 6) I just remembered about the discussion about the evolution of the P.U.(Pony Universe) Elements and the H.U. (Human Universe) Elements and how they compare to one another. I might refer to it on my second post but If it is not so relevant to now then I will disregard the subject.

I may put up a second part to my judgemets and analysis since I only read up half of the whole thread, I will catch up to more tomorrow. Goodnight.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that ÆONS seems to make sense, with the exception that I think that Low 2-C seems less exaggerated than 2-C. Was it established that two universes would be destroyed at once, or just one at a time?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Like I've said before, if Midnight knew what was happening in the Human world, she'd sense if Equestria was in danger too. That's my entire point when I say: "She knew what was happening", not her intent (Although I will admit I used the argument of intent before, but not right now). In the original movie, "only" the human world was under threat.

In addition, one pony was staring directly at one of the portals and continued on with their day. Not in the "This is freaky and I'm gonna ignore this" sense, but in the "They didn't see it at all sense". You can blatantly tell by their body language and facial expressions (Or lack of thereof) that they are completely unresponsive to the portals. It's clear that even if Equestria is being affected, it's being affected at a far far slower rate, which does not qualify for 2-C. It has to be at once.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I suppose that ÆONS seems to make sense, with the exception that I think that Low 2-C seems less exaggerated than 2-C. Was it established that two universes would be destroyed at once, or just one at a time?

Considering how a pony was staring directly into a portal and gave no response? Going about their day perfectly normally? I'd say that if the portals were affecting Equestria, it was being affected at a far slower rate.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Lightbuster.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, should we go with Low 2-C Gloriosa in lack of better options/further staff input then?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Light That part could always either be PIS, or just a Pony not caring considering the magical stuff that goes in Equestria on a regular basis. Also a regular pony wouldn't really know what was going on anyways.