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My Hero Academia: Final War Arc Revisions

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Damage3245 said:
While it's granted that Shigaraki was significantly slower than usual... Wouldn't the safest course be to consider that his speed at that moment is unknown? (What makes his speed to be more likely to be 34.3 m/s than it is to be 25 m/s or 50 m/s? Who says for sure he is moving at baseline Subsonic speeds in that scene?) I don't think we can use him reliably for the calc.
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You know you can create this kinda scrutiny no matter what we use, right? Who says for sure he was moving at normal human speeds? Who says for sure the time it took for the bullet to reach Shigaraki was one second?

Baseline Subsonic at least has the basis of Beginning of Series Shigaraki being able to move at FTE speeds
 
damn....

my boy deku came a long way

i'm proud

i've been stacking the manga and patiently waiting for it to finish ever since season 3, now i shall reap my rewards and binge read all of it without worrying about cliff hangers like all the normies did
 
TheRustyOne said:
He's weakened because he's visually trembling and is obviously not moving fast at all.

He was also just unparalyzed from when he inverted/molted his skin. He's still fighting for control from AFO at that point which is why his body is slower. We know for a fact that when Vestiges rebel the main body becomes slower, as shown with AFO when his Quirks started rebelling against him.

His body wasn't moving the way he wanted it to. So I'm pretty sure the same thing is happening here, Shigaraki is taking back control and now the body won't move as either of them want to. It takes a lot of effort for Shigaraki to just force himself to touch the ground, as shown by his entire body trembling as he does so.

It's 100% canon that he's faster than the bullet and 45% Izuku, yet that bullet was able to hit his hand from over 200 km away while he was moving.

Either he's actually slower based on the above evidence or Horikoshi was just drunk when he drew this scene. Don't take that the wrong way, I'm just joking.
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lmao it's all gud

What'd be the result with freefall speed? Maybe we could calc the distance he's already moved and use the freefall speed of that to see how fast he was moving downwards
 
KingTempest said:
What'd be the result with freefall speed?
Click to expand...
Freefall? He wasn't falling he was leaning down to touch the ground.

I mean, using this gives me a timeframe of 0.4845 seconds, which puts the bullet's speed at... 209300/0.4845 = 431991.744 m/s or Mach 1259.45 (MHS+)

This seems kind of arbitrary to me as well, what's your reason for asking?
 
KingTempest said:
What'd be the result with freefall speed? Maybe we could calc the distance he's already moved and use the freefall speed of that to see how fast he was moving downwards
Click to expand...
Imo free fall doesn't work here. He was moving his arm toward the ground, not falling
 
Y’all trying to cook up without me? For shame.

Obviously agree with AP/LS changes, neutral on whichever we use for AP though I lean towards Star’s cloud feat.

As for speed, I didn’t even REALIZE there was a relativistic feat now, I don’t see much where the usage of 343 is illogical, or even breaks the Site’s new rules.

45% Deku is, on screen, shown outpacing sound waves. No statement, no calc, no hiding, he is just flat out capable of looking at, seeing and dodging sound waves after they are fired. Him being transonic for his calcs is not in anyway based on prior calcs, it’s just how fast he normally is, similar to how we would use athletic human speed for an athletic person. Regardless of the 20% shockwaves or anything, 45% has direct and clear above sound speed, so utilizing that shouldn’t be breaking any rules I believe.

As for Shigaraki, the version of him that is being sniped is HEAVILY weakened from his normal state, which would normally blitz 45% Deku.

Current Shigaraki => 100% Deku > bullets > 45% Deku > Sound

So him getting “blitzed” by the bullets is a result of his weakened state, and therefore isn’t a case of him scaling to something that blitzes himself, like that dodging punches thread. His normal state would be the one BLITZING these bullets, so no inconsistency is being formed, he’s simply THAT messed up from his mental battle and freshly molted body.

With that said… idk. The vestiges for Deku seem to imply he needs to hurry over there, so I assume he’s not going slow towards the ground the first time. The second time is when he seems to quite intently be trying to slam his hand on the ground as fast as possible despite his crumbling mental state. He’s clearly not at his peak, but using subsonic is pretty arbitrary? Like we don’t really know how fast he actually is moving in this scene because of how nerfed he is, so any suggestion is kind of baseless.

So I’d say he’s either moving at 45% Deku’s speed (since that’s the most concrete speed scaling near/on his level we can give him, nerfs or not) or we have to wait further on that particular feat for the Anime interpretation.

But beyond all that the High End of the Dark Hero Arc should be perfectly applicable since it’s not “hiding” anything, it’s just using established speed from the verse not our calcs or anything. So I favor that one, 45% Deku is absolutely faster than sound by feats so our calcs should logically reflect that.
 
Essentially:

343 end of the Deku calc should be used, it’s the most accurate since his 45% is quite obviously above the speed of sound by a LOT. Using it isn’t against site rules to my knowledge or “hiding” calcs, he’s simply that guy.

34.3 for the Shigaraki calc is iffy since he’s so far above that value from his BoS self, but at the same time is heavily weakened. At least for the first calc. The second time, when he reaches his arm back and tries to slam it on the ground, I would see a better argument for using subsonic, since he’s pissed off and regaining some strength.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
34.3 for the Shigaraki calc is iffy since he’s so far above that value from his BoS self, but at the same time is heavily weakened. At least for the first calc. The second time, when he reaches his arm back and tries to slam it on the ground, I would see a better argument for using subsonic, since he’s pissed off and regaining some strength.
Click to expand...
Well the feat does happen twice, with the second time being when he's pissed, so we could probably roll with that
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Well the feat does happen twice, with the second time being when he's pissed, so we could probably roll with that
Click to expand...
I can agree with this and dropping the first one.

He was somewhat off guard and shaky for the first time, while the second time, he knows who is shooting at him and is pissed off, so he’s trying to go as fast as he can, and we know rage makes Shigaraki MUCH faster. So for THAT feat, I would be fine using subsonic, since he gets less weak as time passes after his molting.

So I’m fine with the Relativistic feat and one of the Sub-Relativistic feats as support.
 
Actually looking at it now, the calc seems to specifically be calcing the second time anyway, as the scan used to justify the degree of movement for Shigaraki's arm is the second time he tries to swing his arm
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Actually looking at it now, the calc seems to specifically be calcing the second time anyway, as the scan used to justify the degree of movement for Shigaraki's arm is the second time he tries to swing his arm
Click to expand...
Then that calc should be fine in my opinion. So we should have one Relativistic feat and one Sub-Relativistic feat for Nagant’s bullets.
 
Agree with all the Sub-Rel feats (also where's the laser catch feat?), neutral on the Rel one though leaning on agree due to Kingofwolves999's argument. Agree on the 433 GT end for AP as the other ones are the result of air pressure so direct strikes would be probably be stronger
 
Bruh said:
Agree with all the Sub-Rel feats (also where's the laser catch feat?), neutral on the Rel one though leaning on agree due to Kingofwolves999's argument. Agree on the 433 GT end for AP as the other ones are the result of air pressure so direct strikes would be probably be stronger
Click to expand...
Laser Catch feat shouldn't be a part of this thread also we would need a CRT for the lasers to be accepted as light speed. Which would be the hardest MHA CRT of all time.

Neutral on using 139 gigatons or 433 I think using either is fine.

I agree with the Sub-Rel feat and also the Rel one due to King's arguments, he makes good points.
 
Also, since I saw this getting put around, NONE of the “substitutions” for values like 34.3 or 343 are hiding calcs. They are based on straight up feats the characters do that put them at that speed per wiki standards.

Deku, while fatigued, dying, wounded, tired from month+ fighting and no sleep, can dodge sound waves from Jiro.



In the anime this is even more blatant as his Blackwhip extends, grabs something and pulls him away LONG before the sound waves even reach him after they’re fired. 45% Deku while holding back and at his absolute weakest being above the speed of sound doesn’t need a calc, he just is.

Shigaraki blitzed three people that were staring right at him so bad they were still staring at where he was despite him being centimeters from touching one of them.



Even Gran Torino, while being horrifically casual, is FTE to base Deku, with 5% barely able to track him.



This same Gran Torino is depicted as far slower than 45% Deku, on top of Base Shigaraki being able to react to him.

So there is no calc hiding or anything going on here. Idk what the full standards are, but the series is pretty blatant with the baseline for how fast these people are.

Beginning of series Shigaraki being that FTE is kind of a crazy feat now that I think about it.
 
If it means anything, Shigaraki in a way worse state could blitz a criminal before he could let off a reaction. I think that shigaraki being at least FTE is reasonable as he’s clearly in a more healthy state.

aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy9tYW5nYS9teS1oZXJvLWFjYWRlbWlhLw%3D%3D

Like Shigaraki is literally a skeleton, limbs barely holding on, and he’s blind.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Also, since I saw this getting put around, NONE of the “substitutions” for values like 34.3 or 343 are hiding calcs. They are based on straight up feats the characters do that put them at that speed per wiki standards.

Deku, while fatigued, dying, wounded, tired from month+ fighting and no sleep, can dodge sound waves from Jiro.



In the anime this is even more blatant as his Blackwhip extends, grabs something and pulls him away LONG before the sound waves even reach him after they’re fired. 45% Deku while holding back and at his absolute weakest being above the speed of sound doesn’t need a calc, he just is.

Shigaraki blitzed three people that were staring right at him so bad they were still staring at where he was despite him being centimeters from touching one of them.



Even Gran Torino, while being horrifically casual, is FTE to base Deku, with 5% barely able to track him.



This same Gran Torino is depicted as far slower than 45% Deku, on top of Base Shigaraki being able to react to him.

So there is no calc hiding or anything going on here. Idk what the full standards are, but the series is pretty blatant with the baseline for how fast these people are.

Beginning of series Shigaraki being that FTE is kind of a crazy feat now that I think about it.
Click to expand...

Hiding Calculations​

Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used.

This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.

While it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation, one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial, but is still the justification for the ranking. Hence calc stacking will still be an issue for such feats.
Click to expand...
 
Again, I don’t really see how that applies here. This isn’t something vague or any amount of “we don’t want to calculate this” going on the feat is hypersonic btw. If a character is faster than sound within the story then their speed should be faster than sound for calcs. It’s not like he dodged a bullet or something, it’s sound from a speaker, so I don’t see how using that value as his baseline creates problems.

It’s like if a character is stated to be lightspeed, but you are then not allowed to use the speed of light in any calculation where they are blitzed or outsped.

If we were using this feat to say “oh yeah he’s hypersonic for this feat at least” then I’d get it, but we’re heavily lowballing him in the first place since he’s ON-SCREEN faster than the sound attack on top of all the various nerfs and things making him slower.
 
Hell, even Deku with 5% is shown igniting himself via moving so fast. Not a calc or prediction, he literally does it on screen.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Again, I don’t really see how that applies here. This isn’t something vague or any amount of “we don’t want to calculate this” going on the feat is hypersonic btw. If a character is faster than sound within the story then their speed should be faster than sound for calcs. It’s not like he dodged a bullet or something, it’s sound from a speaker, so I don’t see how using that value as his baseline creates problems.

It’s like if a character is stated to be lightspeed, but you are then not allowed to use the speed of light in any calculation where they are blitzed or outsped.

If we were using this feat to say “oh yeah he’s hypersonic for this feat at least” then I’d get it, but we’re heavily lowballing him in the first place since he’s ON-SCREEN faster than the sound attack on top of all the various nerfs and things making him slower.
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Gonna have to agree here I think considering all of this and scans before that using 343m/s for speed of sound seems valid, you can take me away from being neutral here
 
Well, if someone is shown running faster than a car at top speed, is it truly hiding calcs to assume they’re at least X speed (that top speed)?I mean at the bare minimum they’re shown at that speed right?
 
TimmyTurnero said:
Well, if someone is shown running faster than a car at top speed, is it truly hiding calcs to assume they’re at least X speed (that top speed)?I mean at the bare minimum they’re shown at that speed right?
Click to expand...
"His top running speed is A"
"I'm gonna use his top running speed for his weakened combat speed"

There's nothing saying weakened Shigaraki's FTE
 
KingTempest said:
I said 343 was fine

I'm just saying the 34.3 is hiding calcs

Falls for the same reason of the Tokyo Revengers one
Click to expand...
Ah, I see your point now.

Just to explain, I fully disagree with this feat here using that value. He is so weak here that he’s shaking, is freshly molted and is having a mental struggle to get back control fully. So yeah, I don’t see any reason he should be FTE even if it would be illogical for him to be slower than his BoS self, bro is just going through it.



But when he rears his hand back and tries to slam it down the second time, his AFO side is pissed (which amps Shigaraki’s speed) on top of KNOWING who is shooting at him. This is more akin to him panic moving than that slow reach down from before, on top of his body healing more rapidly.



For THIS feat I feel we can get more information/talk about to understand how fast he’s really going. He’s still weak as hell but even a weak Shigaraki can move faster than people can see (as shown in that scan above where he grabs that random guy before he can react).

So I can get where you’re coming from as “weakened Shigaraki” doesn’t really have any scaling. He’s just kinda “weaker/slower than usual” which doesn’t really tell us much to set a baseline. So either way I’d be fine with FTE not being used.

Lowkey it would be more accurate to use speed of sound than subsonic for his “rage hand movement” but I’ll leave that alone.
 
TimmyTurnero said:
If it means anything, Shigaraki in a way worse state could blitz a criminal before he could let off a reaction. I think that shigaraki being at least FTE is reasonable as he’s clearly in a more healthy state.

aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy9tYW5nYS9teS1oZXJvLWFjYWRlbWlhLw%3D%3D

Like Shigaraki is literally a skeleton, limbs barely holding on, and he’s blind.
Click to expand...
@KingTempest Here's something pretty important. Even a Shigaraki that was pretty much reduced to a skeleton moved FTE to this civilian
 
KingTempest said:
"His top running speed is A"
"I'm gonna use his top running speed for his weakened combat speed"

There's nothing saying weakened Shigaraki's FTE
Click to expand...
I was just saying that calling it calc hiding isn’t really the proper term. No evidence of him being at that speed isn’t what you we’re arguing, plus I showed a panel of Shigaraki in a far worse state being FTE to a human, is that good enough?
TimmyTurnero said:
If it means anything, Shigaraki in a way worse state could blitz a criminal before he could let off a reaction. I think that shigaraki being at least FTE is reasonable as he’s clearly in a more healthy state.

aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWFuZ2FyZWFkLm9yZy9tYW5nYS9teS1oZXJvLWFjYWRlbWlhLw%3D%3D

Like Shigaraki is literally a skeleton, limbs barely holding on, and he’s blind.
Click to expand...
 
Also not gonna lie I completely forgot about him moving FTE to that one random criminal guy. That was after he was reduced to a skeleton, he’s LOSING QUIRKS which is causing explosions in his body, on top of Star’s New Order literally destroying his mental scape. So yeah, that’d be a way worse state than when he’s pissed at Nagant.

KingTempest said:
So shaking Shigaraki ≠ FTE
Regular weakened sentient Shigaraki ≥ FTE
W/e
Click to expand...
Essentially.

Him realizing Nagant is shooting at him + AFO being pissed off inside him + the feat of a WAY weaker version of himself blitzing that one random guy should be enough for the second feat to be FTE.
 
I guess my last contribution to this whole “shaking Shigaraki is giga-slow” would be that AFO takes control right after he gets shot.

Initially, after the molt and during the first attempt to touch the ground, Shigaraki is totally in control and at the front. But after he gets his hand shot off, he screams out and we see that AFO has shoved “Tenko” back down.

So while they were still fighting, they were way weaker, but after the first shot took their hand off and AFO got pissed, he took back main control which would make the body more stable and thus faster.

This + the even weaker Shigaraki going FTE should show that for the SECOND hand movement, he’s in way better shape for a brief moment thanks to anger.

 
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