Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,142
- 10,431
Fine, I'll do it myself.
Not as Violent as it Seems
To start, let's address the idea that most people would object to featuring stage personas on the basis that we'd basically be discussing real life people killing each other. This is... very odd, especially since I can't think of any instances where anyone on here has posted about a fictional character dying in graphic detail. Even so, this isn't that out of line with what regular people talk about; Shows like Deadliest Warrior have used real life historical figures in "who would win" scenarios, and people regularly discuss events like boxing matches or WWE events where the "who would win" aspect plays a major role. Stage personas are, in fact, an entire step removed from the more realistic discussion the aforementioned topics take, so it seems odd to bar discussion of them entirely.
But of course, we're ignoring the obvious issue is that the feats these characters show, taken in a vacuum, aren't really used to demonstrate how capable they are of killing real people. We index things like real life feats of stamina, striking strength, and running speed, using them as the basis for the rules we apply to every character. These are not to demonstrate how Usain Bolt can "blitz" another human, or how Mike Tyson could cave in your chest with a good punch; We are able to distinguish these feats from real life violence and avoid using them as points in VS debates, so what exactly prevents us from taking people even less rooted in reality and indexing their feats? Remember, we are an indexing site first and foremost - the discussion of "who can kill who" is secondary, so it's completely fine, and in fact normal, for a profile to simply be feats and abilities in a vacuum.
Of course, discussing whether Logan Paul could kill Markiplier, while probably funny in a ****** up kind of way, is still obviously something most people are going to find distasteful. However, this isn't a reason for a total ban on their profiles. It's an issue that's easily solved by a total ban on VS matches using these characters, preventing the "who would kill who" issue from ever cropping up. If that's still too lenient, we can ban any discussion of their power level relative to anyone outside their own work. And while using scaling within the work may seem at odds with trying to limit the discussion of violence regarding real people, think of it this way: The person playing the stage persona was obviously okay with the level of violence within their own work, so why would someone discussing that be an issue?
In short, one of the main issues most people have with the idea of stage personas is easily circumvented while still allowing the profiles themselves.I also take issue with the claim that the majority of users here are minors but that's whatever :v
Nobody on the Wiki Understands the Justice System
We seem to have this weird idea that we could be sued into the ground for featuring stage personas. This is... a very odd take for a number of reasons.
For starters, stage personas aren't any more copyright protected than any other character. I assure you, Nintendo and Disney would be a hundred times more likely to nuke their relevant pages here if they knew about them. The same goes for any copyrighted material, actually, so there's no particular reason why stage personas should be singled out - in fact, most of them aren't copyrighted, and there would be no legal repercussions for using a character like Darkiplier because he isn't even copyrighted.
But that leads me to the main point: Everything we do here falls under fair use. I'll be using US law as a basis for this, since Fandom operates here. Under the laws of fair use, copyrighted material can be used so long as it falls under the category of reporting, research, commentary, and so on. We fall under that category, as we aim to provide accurate assessments of how strong or fast characters are; A niche category of research to be sure, but a valid one nonetheless. There are even more ways we're protected by the legal system here - there are 4 criteria primarily used for determining fair use:
-Whether the work is used commercially or for nonprofit (show me a single person who's made money off of this site and I'll show you a liar)
-The nature of the copyrighted work (again, most stage personas aren't even copyrighted)
-The substantiality of what we use relative to the entire work (we almost entirely use individual clips and scans for references, which make up a small portion of the total work)
-The potential effect on the value of the copyrighted work (I shouldn't have to explain that having the AVGN here wouldn't do shit to James Rolfe's net worth)
It also goes without saying that, considering internet shows like Death Battle have used WWE personas or even real life celebrities without legal repercussion - and this actually IS a show that turns a profit, so they have less legal protection than we do - we should be completely fine. Hell, they have gotten in more hot water with Toei than anyone else - Having Dragon Ball profiles is more of a risk to our site than the ******* Irate Gamer or whatever.
Basically, 9 times out of 10, we will have 0 legal risk of using stage personas, and in the rare case we do run into legal trouble (which is even less likely than getting into legal trouble with any of the big companies that own the IPs we DO allow), everything we do falls under fair use anyways so it literally does not matter.
So what Should we Allow?
Obviously, we still need standards, because this still edges a little close to pages we wouldn't allow. Here's a short list of
-Total ban on VS discussions, or any extension of "who would win" discussions regarding stage personas.
-Characters must have actually notable feats that go well beyond what the actor they're played by can do.
-Characters must have an original story or setting, one that isn't just a reflection of their real life.
I'm open to more restrictions, but I think we've been overly strict in regards to stage personas and the like. Also, I'd like to preemptively request that this thread be moved to staff discussion, before it gets overly derailed.
Not as Violent as it Seems
To start, let's address the idea that most people would object to featuring stage personas on the basis that we'd basically be discussing real life people killing each other. This is... very odd, especially since I can't think of any instances where anyone on here has posted about a fictional character dying in graphic detail. Even so, this isn't that out of line with what regular people talk about; Shows like Deadliest Warrior have used real life historical figures in "who would win" scenarios, and people regularly discuss events like boxing matches or WWE events where the "who would win" aspect plays a major role. Stage personas are, in fact, an entire step removed from the more realistic discussion the aforementioned topics take, so it seems odd to bar discussion of them entirely.
But of course, we're ignoring the obvious issue is that the feats these characters show, taken in a vacuum, aren't really used to demonstrate how capable they are of killing real people. We index things like real life feats of stamina, striking strength, and running speed, using them as the basis for the rules we apply to every character. These are not to demonstrate how Usain Bolt can "blitz" another human, or how Mike Tyson could cave in your chest with a good punch; We are able to distinguish these feats from real life violence and avoid using them as points in VS debates, so what exactly prevents us from taking people even less rooted in reality and indexing their feats? Remember, we are an indexing site first and foremost - the discussion of "who can kill who" is secondary, so it's completely fine, and in fact normal, for a profile to simply be feats and abilities in a vacuum.
Of course, discussing whether Logan Paul could kill Markiplier, while probably funny in a ****** up kind of way, is still obviously something most people are going to find distasteful. However, this isn't a reason for a total ban on their profiles. It's an issue that's easily solved by a total ban on VS matches using these characters, preventing the "who would kill who" issue from ever cropping up. If that's still too lenient, we can ban any discussion of their power level relative to anyone outside their own work. And while using scaling within the work may seem at odds with trying to limit the discussion of violence regarding real people, think of it this way: The person playing the stage persona was obviously okay with the level of violence within their own work, so why would someone discussing that be an issue?
In short, one of the main issues most people have with the idea of stage personas is easily circumvented while still allowing the profiles themselves.
Nobody on the Wiki Understands the Justice System
We seem to have this weird idea that we could be sued into the ground for featuring stage personas. This is... a very odd take for a number of reasons.
For starters, stage personas aren't any more copyright protected than any other character. I assure you, Nintendo and Disney would be a hundred times more likely to nuke their relevant pages here if they knew about them. The same goes for any copyrighted material, actually, so there's no particular reason why stage personas should be singled out - in fact, most of them aren't copyrighted, and there would be no legal repercussions for using a character like Darkiplier because he isn't even copyrighted.
But that leads me to the main point: Everything we do here falls under fair use. I'll be using US law as a basis for this, since Fandom operates here. Under the laws of fair use, copyrighted material can be used so long as it falls under the category of reporting, research, commentary, and so on. We fall under that category, as we aim to provide accurate assessments of how strong or fast characters are; A niche category of research to be sure, but a valid one nonetheless. There are even more ways we're protected by the legal system here - there are 4 criteria primarily used for determining fair use:
-Whether the work is used commercially or for nonprofit (show me a single person who's made money off of this site and I'll show you a liar)
-The nature of the copyrighted work (again, most stage personas aren't even copyrighted)
-The substantiality of what we use relative to the entire work (we almost entirely use individual clips and scans for references, which make up a small portion of the total work)
-The potential effect on the value of the copyrighted work (I shouldn't have to explain that having the AVGN here wouldn't do shit to James Rolfe's net worth)
It also goes without saying that, considering internet shows like Death Battle have used WWE personas or even real life celebrities without legal repercussion - and this actually IS a show that turns a profit, so they have less legal protection than we do - we should be completely fine. Hell, they have gotten in more hot water with Toei than anyone else - Having Dragon Ball profiles is more of a risk to our site than the ******* Irate Gamer or whatever.
Basically, 9 times out of 10, we will have 0 legal risk of using stage personas, and in the rare case we do run into legal trouble (which is even less likely than getting into legal trouble with any of the big companies that own the IPs we DO allow), everything we do falls under fair use anyways so it literally does not matter.
So what Should we Allow?
Obviously, we still need standards, because this still edges a little close to pages we wouldn't allow. Here's a short list of
-Total ban on VS discussions, or any extension of "who would win" discussions regarding stage personas.
-Characters must have actually notable feats that go well beyond what the actor they're played by can do.
-Characters must have an original story or setting, one that isn't just a reflection of their real life.
I'm open to more restrictions, but I think we've been overly strict in regards to stage personas and the like. Also, I'd like to preemptively request that this thread be moved to staff discussion, before it gets overly derailed.
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