Mushoku Tensei Discussion Thread

[Zabazab]

That reasoning doesn’t hold up. This just means that his time-loop mechanism started after those years. The point still stands that he has type 8 immortality because of how the ability works, which is literally the same as defined in the wikis. Also, since when was it stated that he was born 1,900 years ago? Wasn't he born 10,000 years ago, and then reincarnated 10,000 years later? That's when his journey started and the time loops began. Before his father's death, his father implanted magic in him

He passed on all his techniques to Orsted, so it stands to reason that Orsted is the one using the timeloop technique, hence why Orsted is the one with reduced mana regen.

Orsted was born over 100,000 years ago, reincarnated as a baby 2000 years ago (as per Perugius' words), and started his loop 100 years ago.

Basically there is no other object or entity Orsted is relying on for his timeloops.

 

[Betatester0]

He passed on all his techniques to Orsted, so it stands to reason that Orsted is the one using the timeloop technique, hence why Orsted is the one with reduced mana regen.

Orsted was born over 100,000 years ago, reincarnated as a baby 2000 years ago (as per Perugius' words), and started his loop 100 years ago.

Basically there is no other object or entity Orsted is relying on for his timeloops.

Orsted himself does not use the technique since he does not even know it.

"-You said that it's best not to use the retry technique on Rudy, but is it possible to cast it on someone who wasn't even born at the time of the restart?
To begin with, Orsted doesn't know how to cast secret techniques."

and the information about Orsted being reborn 1000 years ago is also false considering Orsted already lied about it to Rudeus

 

[AlanGoji]

Basically there is no other object or entity Orsted is relying on for his timeloops.

He is reliant on the 200 year timeloop mechanism (this is the concept he relies on, type 8 doesn't just also needs a literal object or a person) that was passed down to him by his father. The timeloop ensures that if he dies, he will be reincarnated on a 200 years cycle, resetting the timeline until he eventually succeeds in defeating Hitogami. The system is what keeps him "immmortal" in the sense that he cannot permanently die until the condition of "defeating Hitogami" is fulfilled.

In simple terms, Orsted is reliant on the magic and system his father set up that creates the loop. His survival is tied to this repeating cycle, which continues until the condition (Hitogami's defeat) is met. The reliance on an external condition (the 200-year cycle) is the reason why I see it as type 8 immortality. And it shouldn't be redundant since his resurrection magic should only be seen as an expression of how would it look like if he revives(goes back in time -> and respawn to that point of time and place).

Type 8: Reliant Immortality: The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place, and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise. What exactly a user is reliant over, the benefits given from it, and how the process of the ability operates must be explained. Simply having some weakness that will kill a character when exploited doesn't qualify if it doesn't grant a form of Immortality, and also having other powers that do grant Immortality but are unrelated to that weakness does not count as well. It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile

 

[Zabazab]

"-You said that it's best not to use the retry technique on Rudy, but is it possible to cast it on someone who wasn't even born at the time of the restart?
To begin with, Orsted doesn't know how to cast secret techniques."

I see

and the information about Orsted being reborn 1000 years ago is also false considering Orsted already lied about it to Rudeus

Nope, it came from Perugius. He says Orsted was reincarnated 2000 years ago.

 

[Betatester0]

Nope, it came from Perugius. He says Orsted was reincarnated 2000 years ago.

and the author said that this is a lie.

- If the previous story is true (he was reincarnated about 2000 years ago), then Orus would be about 1900 years old as of the year 330 of the Koryu calendar? Did he cast a secret spell on himself to create the loop?
The 2000-year-old thing is a lie to gain trust.
Time leap is a questionable mysterious magic even in that world, but there are quite a few people who are around 2000 years old.


also what do you think about Orsted's resistance to immortality 4 negation/soul manipulation

 

[AlanGoji]

What in-verse ability that literally negates touki aside from Eris's sword?

Would disturb magic or dragon/wyrm gates work against it?

 

[Digital_Franz]

I forgot to reply here. Anyway.

but Hitogami constantly sees this in his future, which means Hitogami's fate is to die from Orsted, and Orsted's fate in this case is to kill Hitogami. well, and I'm talking about permanent look, ordinary death of not Orsted makes it so that everything that happened never existed, so his non-permanent death does not affect fate, and therefore Hitogami killing Orsted does not change anything, at the same time permanent death means a change in fate.

Snd what about the technique that can kill immortal demons who are also have immortality 4? will we consider that it cannot kill Orsted permanently, and therefore ordinary destruction of the soul probably cannot do it?

Once again Orsted's fate is not to kill Hitogami. It's just a goal he has. And then again permanently killing Orsted won't change anything about his fate. Look at Toji's profile. It's the same bullshit with fate but Gojo didn't need Fate Manipulation to turn him into an Apple logo. For the technique that can kill immortal demons probably yes.

Yeah, "it's just a condition of his magic", that literally is the external concept that enables Orsted's time loop. The magic his father passed on is what establishes how his immortality functions like that of a type 8 immortal. If he "defeats" Hitogami, which is a key part of this cycle, his immortality may cease to exist. The connection just shows that his ability to reset is dependent on that external magic. His ressurection is just how his type 8 expresses.

. Please convince me how it is not type 8, because these are literally the reliant conditions that support why he is type 8. This is based on my understanding of his rbd, as his (or his dad's) goal and the consequences of failing that goal are what make Orsted a type 8 immortal

It's not external. It's all about how magic works. As I said, it's like making a spell that has conditions of execution. I also said that at best it concerns Hitogami because he's the one Orsted is connected to, but so far I don't think it fits the bill.

Based on my understanding, he is reliant on the 200 year timeloop mechanism (this is the concept he relies on, type 8 doesn't just also needs a literal object or a person) that was passed down to him by his father. The timeloop ensures that if he dies, he will be reincarnated on a 200 years cycle, resetting the timeline until he eventually succeeds in defeating Hitogami. The system is what keeps him "immmortal" in the sense that he cannot permanently die until the condition of "defeating Hitogami" is fulfilled.

In simple terms, Orsted is reliant on the magic and system his father set up that creates the loop. His survival is tied to this repeating cycle, which continues until the condition (Hitogami's defeat) is met. The reliance on an external condition (the 200-year cycle) is the reason why I see it as type 8 immortality. And it shouldn't be redundant since his resurrection magic should only be seen as an expression of how would it look like if he revives(goes back in time -> and respawn to that point of time and place).

The resurrection Orsted experienced when he was sent 10,000 years into the future could be considered an example of type 4 immortality. However, the 200-year cycle that continuously revives him after death operates differently and it fits type 8 immortality. The system(the magical 200 year cycle timeloop) pass on by his father, ensures Orsted's survival as long as the condition to defeat Hitogami remains, which is why it's very different from traditional resurrection

As I say since this cycle itself is insignificant. It's just like a timer on the spell. Like someone who wears a belt with bombs and here killing Hitogami is like deactivating those bombs. The principle of how a spell works cannot be a concept.

What in-verse ability that literally negates touki aside from Eris's sword?

Would disturb magic or dragon/wyrm gates work against it?

I think Paul's sword and Rudy's Magic.

 

[Betatester0]

Once again Orsted's fate is not to kill Hitogami. It's just a goal he has. And then again permanently killing Orsted won't change anything about his fate. Look at Toji's profile. It's the same bullshit with fate but Gojo didn't need Fate Manipulation to turn him into an Apple logo. For the technique that can kill immortal demons probably yes.

this is basically the same as saying that Lara's birth is not Roxy's destiny, just like in the case of Lara's birth Hitogami also constantly sees his defeat trying to avoid it, if Hitogami sees that he is destined to die from Orsted then Orsted is destined to kill Hitogami. and I am not an expert in jjk, but the only thing I saw in toji's profile is that he was able to influence the fate of others but did not see anything that could protect his fate

 

[Digital_Franz]

this is basically the same as saying that Lara's birth is not Roxy's destiny, just like in the case of Lara's birth Hitogami also constantly sees his defeat trying to avoid it, if Hitogami sees that he is destined to die from Orsted then Orsted is destined to kill Hitogami. and I am not an expert in jjk, but the only thing I saw in toji's profile is that he was able to influence the fate of others but did not see anything that could protect his fate

It is said that he escaped fate not that he changed someone else's. Again, killing Orsted has nothing to do with his fate. Literally when a character gets killed it's not like their fate is to get killed.

 

[Betatester0]

It is said that he escaped fate not that he changed someone else's. Again, killing Orsted has nothing to do with his fate. Literally when a character gets killed it's not like their fate is to get killed.

avoiding fate once and full protection of fate from changes as for me are slightly different things. and no, if you can see the fate of a person where he is killed it means that the fate of this person is to be killed

 

[AlanGoji]

I think Paul's sword and Rudy's Magic.

And by I mean "negate", I mean it as like shutdowning or manipulating the touki to be gone

 

[Digital_Franz]

avoiding fate once and full protection of fate from changes as for me are slightly different things. and no, if you can see the fate of a person where he is killed it means that the fate of this person is to be killed

Nah that's the whole problem with Precognition. What is seen is just a possibility and not fate.

And by I mean "negate", I mean it as like shutdowning or manipulating the touki to be gone

Well, there aren't any.

 

[Betatester0]

Nah that's the whole problem with Precognition. What is seen is just a possibility and not fate.

if you can see the future and in it some person dies in 100% of cases, regardless of how much you or anyone else tried to avoid it, then this is already fate, and in order to change this you need the ability to directly influence and change the fate of a person. moreover, in Hitogami's case, he cannot see Orsted precisely because his fate does not obey the laws of the world

 

[Digital_Franz]

if you can see the future and in it some person dies in 100% of cases, regardless of how much you or anyone else tried to avoid it, then this is already fate, and in order to change this you need the ability to directly influence and change the fate of a person. moreover, in Hitogami's case, he cannot see Orsted precisely because his fate does not obey the laws of the world

False. The only problem is that Hitogami can't directly interfere in the world otherwise he would have killed Orsted himself. Hitogami's precognition doesn't work on Orsted not because of his fate but because of his Acausality. Proven with the bracelets that Orsted possesses which also allowed Rudy to escape Hitogami's precognition.

Anyway, I don't think I'm going to continue answering because no matter how hard I try, you don't want to understand, even with Toji's example.

 

[Voidnether]

Never ever in my entire life have I seen Hitogami being able to manipulate fate themselves, imo it's probably vague but like I actually never see it

Like, what feat does Hitogami even have other than humans being able to trust him automatically (Dream Manipulation) and the sole fact that if he dies then the world also gets destroyed with the 6 realms

Maybe if you ever see the ending (Rudeus and Roxy's daughter) that was planning to kill Hitogami later without the world being destroyed, it's just for the story really. There's no indications about fate manipulation whatsoever

If you follow the story carefully, you would've known that Hitogami only tries to change the fate (because of his precognition) that he knows for a fact Rudeus and Roxy's daughter were gonna kill him

And it's shown consistently with him manipulating Rudeus, and everyone just dies then Future Rudeus came

 

[AlanGoji]

Well, there aren't any.

Wouldn't Wyrm Gates work due to the fact that they absorb mana? Especially in that one Perugius vs Atofe scene

 

[Betatester0]

False. The only problem is that Hitogami can't directly interfere in the world otherwise he would have killed Orsted himself. Hitogami's precognition doesn't work on Orsted not because of his fate but because of his Acausality. Proven with the bracelets that Orsted possesses which also allowed Rudy to escape Hitogami's precognition.

Anyway, I don't think I'm going to continue answering because no matter how hard I try, you don't want to understand, even with Toji's example.

okay, I see that this is meaningless and I don’t even want to talk about it myself, but I just want to clarify that Orsted's acausality is actually that he and his fate are separated from the principles that govern the world and this is what prevents Hitogami from seeing his future, the bracelet is a separate case

"- Hitogami can look anywhere and see the future. But he is not able to see those whose fate does not obey the laws of this world."

considering that we have already seen that Rudeus' eye, which shows exactly the options for the future, works on Orsted, then Hitogami's ability does not

 

[Digital_Franz]

Wouldn't Wyrm Gates work due to the fact that they absorb mana? Especially in that one Perugius vs Atofe scene

Absorb mana≠cancel touki.

okay, I see that this is meaningless and I don’t even want to talk about it myself, but I just want to clarify that Orsted's acausality is actually that he and his fate are separated from the principles that govern the world and this is what prevents Hitogami from seeing his future, the bracelet is a separate case

No. Acausality Type 4 prevents precognition. It has nothing to do with fate.

"- Hitogami can look anywhere and see the future. But he is not able to see those whose fate does not obey the laws of this world."

Never said. Precognition varies between users.

considering that we have already seen that Rudeus' eye, which shows exactly the options for the future, works on Orsted, then Hitogami's ability does not

What is it supposed to bring?

 

[AlanGoji]

Yeah it looks like FDG can withstand it

I wanna know what kind of ability would og Dragon God get for withstanding that completely unscathed

 

[Digital_Franz]

I wanna know what kind of ability would og Dragon God get for withstanding that completely unscathed

Resistance to EE.

 

[Betatester0]

What's the difference between the first dragon god's technique where Orsted can't die until he kills Hitogami and other cases where someone is cursed with permanent immortality or is immortal until they fulfill a certain condition that gives immortality 8?

Orsted does not use it himself (that is, this is not the same situation as with Laplace, demons and other characters who can resurrect themselves), Orsted with all his knowledge can neither use nor break the technique, Orsted has a condition and a guarantor (curse/technique) of his immortality

 

[AlanGoji]

Resistance to EE.

I thought it has different terms. Like for example, resistance to fate manipulation is just acausality type 4?? But yeh ok, I just need the specific powerscaling terms.

What about the Chaos Breaker(technically the spirits)? Would that apply to them too?

 

[Digital_Franz]

I thought it has different terms. Like for example, resistance to fate manipulation is just acausality type 4?? But yeh ok, I just need the specific powerscaling terms.

What about the Chaos Breaker(technically the spirits)? Would that apply to them too?

Hell nah. Resistance to Fate Manipulation≠ Acausality Type 4.

What's the difference between the first dragon god's technique where Orsted can't die until he kills Hitogami and other cases where someone is cursed with permanent immortality or is immortal until they fulfill a certain condition that gives immortality 8?

Orsted does not use it himself (that is, this is not the same situation as with Laplace, demons and other characters who can resurrect themselves), Orsted with all his knowledge can neither use nor break the technique, Orsted has a condition and a guarantor (curse/technique) of his immortality

Usually they are related to places and not conditions and destroying the place cancels immortality. Anyway I already said why it is not Type 8.

 

[Betatester0]

Usually they are related to places and not conditions and destroying the place cancels immortality. Anyway I already said why it is not Type 8.

I looked at a few examples and it's not necessary, there are those who can simply be cursed by someone (at least if the profiles of those I looked at don't have some unspecified information). Baldur from GoW is cursed by his mother to immortality, Ganondorf is bound to always follow and doom the Hylians by constantly reincarnating, Morkvarg is simply cursed and claims that he can't die and these are just a few that I found. Even if they have some separate situations, but in fact this in any case means that someone can simply be cursed (which in general is not far from Orsted's case since he can't remove this technique from himself, does not use it of his own free will, and did not impose it on himself) to immortality and have type 8. If besides this there are no other contradictions, then taking into account all of the above, this fits immortality 8

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

but Hitogami constantly sees this in his future, which means Hitogami's fate is to die from Orsted, and Orsted's fate in this case is to kill Hitogami. well, and I'm talking about permanent look, ordinary death of not Orsted makes it so that everything that happened never existed, so his non-permanent death does not affect fate, and therefore Hitogami killing Orsted does not change anything, at the same time permanent death means a change in fate.

Snd what about the technique that can kill immortal demons who are also have immortality 4? will we consider that it cannot kill Orsted permanently, and therefore ordinary destruction of the soul probably cannot do it?

no because he doesnt have any showcase of going back in time after soul damage so it did be purely speculative

 

[AlanGoji]

Does anyone already have a calc for the large rock Rudeus created during his fight with Orsted? It was stated to be 1 km in size and was dropped from the sky to the ground, which Rudeus described as like this:

The rock struck with such a speed as to make one think that its large form had suddenly teleported.

From WN
.
.

I wasn't done yet. I channeled more mana into my staff and created a rock in the sky above the village. Ignoring the mana cost, I steadily expanded its size until it was too huge to evade-then launched it straight down, with all the velocity I could impart.

The rock slammed down in a fraction of a second. The ground trembled underneath my feet. An instant later a thunderous boom reached my ears, followed by fierce winds and a shockwave.

From LN.

And if not, where do you guys think this scales to?

 

[Digital_Franz]

Does anyone already have a calc for the large rock Rudeus created during his fight with Orsted? It was stated to be 1 km in size and was dropped from the sky to the ground, which Rudeus described as like this:


From WN
.
.

From LN.

And if not, where do you guys think this scales to?

If you had checked my blog for the LN you would have seen it. It's 6-B.

 

[AlanGoji]

Orsted can destroy someone's lungs. When he "touches" Rudeus, is he applying pressure on his ribs with his hands to destroy Rudeus's lungs, or is it a magic/technique like some sort of dura-neg?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Orsted can destroy someone's lungs. When he "touches" Rudeus, is he applying pressure on his ribs with his hands to destroy Rudeus's lungs, or is it a magic/technique like some sort of dura-neg?

either way it did be limited dura neg as he targets the internal organs

 

[AlanGoji]

・ How much difference is there between Rudeus and Orsdet in terms of magical power? 　Rudeus is slightly higher when comparing only the maximum value

So, if Rudeus wasn’t human and wasn’t limited by the risk of exploding due to excessive mana, could he potentially destroy a planet? What’s the difference between Rudeus's mana and Orsted’s mana? What makes Orsted capable of destroying the entire world? Is it because of his mana, or is it because there's a specific technique/spell that can destroy a world? Because I think some same-rank magic/technique has different level of DC

 

[Betatester0]

i was wondering if we know that Orsted's mana is enough to destroy the world (and probably even more considering that Hitogami could easily use a similar attack and Orsted should be superior to Hitogami), is it possible, considering that Rudeus completely used up all his mana in the battle with Orsted, to divide the number of attacks by the minimum amount of energy needed to destroy the planet and find the average power of each of Rudeus' attacks? Rudeus used four strong spells at the beginning and then mainly used a gatling gun that shoots 10 stone bullets per second. even if we assume that he shot for 10 minutes straight, this will be 6000 stone bullets. and if I'm not mistaken, this will correspond to a multi-continental level, and if we take for example 3 minutes, then this will be the moon level, both levels generally explain how Rudeus' attacks can damage Orsted

 

[AlanGoji]

Could this be possibly a black hole?

 

[Voidnether]

Could this be possibly a black hole?

Eh, that's just energy manipulation at most

 

[AlanGoji]

For the planet I have not yet worked on the subject. I will find out how to do the calc.

Okay, how about you use the map image to find the pixel dimensions? I think it's fine considering the fact that oceans do not meet

 

[Digital_Franz]

Okay, how about you use the map image to find the pixel dimensions? I think it's fine considering the fact that oceans do not meet

Yeah no. The thing about the oceans not touching I think that was just about the WN. The FAQ is about the WN if I'm not mistaken. In the LN there were several mentions of "planet". In any case I'll see what to do when the time comes.

 

[AlanGoji]

Does Hitogami have nigh-omniscience?

 

[Digital_Franz]

Does Hitogami have nigh-omniscience?

Nah. He is Extraordinary Genius.

 

[AlanGoji]

From VsBattle wikis

A character may have more than one intelligence rank if the statistic varies depending on the area. This means that they can reach exceptional levels in some respects, but be unimpressive in others.



Here are some examples:



"Below Average normally. Extraordinary Genius in scientific disciplines" may be appropriate for characters who behave in a silly manner, have klutzy mishaps even when trying to do simple tasks, or often make unrealistically dimwitted tactical decisions, but have displayed exceptional feats in fields of science and technology.

"Below Average normally. Genius in Martial Arts, combat & strategic thinking" may be appropriate for characters who behave in an immature, naive, uneducated, or unintelligent manner most of the time, but are absolute savants when it comes to hand-to-hand combat and associated strategic thinking.

"Genius normally. Nigh-Omniscient with X power" could be appropriate for characters who display standard levels of genius intellect normally, and can receive enormously greater amounts of knowledge from a separate power, such as Cosmic Awareness, but may not have access to this power on a regular basis.

Hitogami has a kind of cosmic awareness based on all of his interactions with Rudeus, especially in volume 3 where he suddenly notice Rudeus's significance/threat after the mana catastrophe, and some of his other actions. Why wouldn't he be considered nigh-omniscient, given the definition is:

Characters who have knowledge of nearly everything, with only minuscule gaps existing in their knowledge

 

[Digital_Franz]

From VsBattle wikis

Hitogami has a kind of cosmic awareness based on all of his interactions with Rudeus, especially in volume 3 where he suddenly notice Rudeus's significance/threat after the mana catastrophe, and some of his other actions. Why wouldn't he be considered nigh-omniscient, given the definition is:

Cosmic Awareness≠Nigh-Omniscience. Seeing into another dimension doesn't mean knowing almost everything. He doesn't know a lot about the Dragon race, like their magic for example.

 

[AlanGoji]

Cosmic Awareness≠Nigh-Omniscience. Seeing into another dimension doesn't mean knowing almost everything. He doesn't know a lot about the Dragon race, like their magic for example.

Where was it stated that Hitogami does not know about dragon race's magic. And how much of "almost" is nigh-omniscient