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Mukuro vs. Hajime

I am getting honestly tired of this same circular bullcrap.

It literally doesn't matter what power it is, it is bound by what it has shown to do. It has made no one act out of character, it has never interfered with people's abilities, it has only made physical things happen, it has never interacted or stopped hax like this.

Either stop claiming nonsense once and for all or seriously don't even bother. Repeating the same thing again isn't gonna make it correct.

Actually, **** it. This isn't even debating, is just "let me tell you how we expect powers to work here" the class session. I'll just leave, this is too stressful and not worth the damn trouble.
 
@SirLancelot Go to 1:15:14 Someone changed their mind to kill Makoto. Boy, was he lucky she didn't kill Leon or else Makoto and everyone else would all be killed. Cause everyone would have had believed her.
 
There is additional context to the luck feat in the trial but she planned a murder and was going to frame it on Makoto. Then, at the last possible moment, she changed her mind and gave Makoto a way to survive the trial with a message written in blood.
 
@Pick I am seriously starting to wonder, and is getting me pretty irritated, if you are all actually reading my comments. By SBA, she knows she's in a battle. It doesn't matter she can't see him, she knows she's battling someone and they are in a battle mentality.

@Elixir ... Welp, I can see you indeed have misinterpreted stuff. At no point does she change her mind, her plan simply doesn't pan out because she gets killed instead. It's even left entirely vague if she left the message to help Makoto or to avenge her own death. And you have exactly nothing backing up this being related to Makoto's bad luck.
 
Wow. Ok. I guess there was no point for the writers to bring it up then.
 
But there was a point. A narrative one. Because unless I am remembering really wrong, no one including Naegi actually knows for certain her state of mind before death. And even without his luck or her changing her mind, she could have still done exactly what she did.

Unless you take the manga as canon, in which case it still had nothing to do with his luck. It was a very reasonable set of mind considering her motivations and how things panned out.
 
There's also the Alter-Ego scene where he shows up before Naegi gets flattened just to point out another Naegi's defense luck feat. If the player blame Kirigiri, Alter-Ego will not save her just to point it out
 
Sigh, moving to the next example. 2nd game, trial 6, Makoto's Empathic Manipulation fails to convince Hajime to believe in the power of friendship him. Hajime and the rest of the 2nd cast fall into despair. Makoto is screwed. There is nothing he could possibly physically do to get out of that situation.

Luckily, A.I. Chaiki, unknown to anyone she could do that (lucky Makoto), convince Hajime to not give up hope and Hajime saves the day (and Makoto!).
 
He's lucky it happen. How do you define luck? Only when it's controlled? Only when physical objects work in your favor? Or for gambling?

Cause Makoto admitted he was taking a gamble entering the Neo world program.
 
This is all literally inconsequential. You are all still comparing physical objects that took time to do the thing it had to do... to nearly instantaneous sealing that doesn't travel, doesn't have a projectile, doesn't have anything. It just works and it's done.

What are you arguing about anymore? Because this really feels like you know nothing else is stopping Mukuro in time so you are trying to throw anything under the sun and attribute it somehow to his luck.

How many times do I have to freaking say none of this is even comparable to sealing like Mukuro's and won't stop it? I am getting tired of sahinf the same thing just because simple logic doesn't seem to stick.
 
So, wait, how is this match happening? Are we materializing them out of no where and the picosecond they receive consciousness, they start attacking each other? That's what i'm hearing.
 
... can I ask for a clip of this thought based move? I can't find an example on YouTube.
 
PickAPoison963 said:
@Lanncelot

"I also don't remember sealing needing her to see her target. But Ion can clear that out."

how does she know theres an enemy in the first place
Click to expand...
By Standard Battle Assumptions, aka SBA, combatants know that they are in a fight with the other.
 
Just check the standard battle assumptions page.

We assume combatants are willing to kill even if normally they wouldn't, but they will still act in character. They know they are in a battle, we assume they aren't confused by suddenly getting transported, blah blah blah. Checking the page is easier.
 
I forgot about this thread lol, I will answer the question in a couple of hours.
 
Mukuro raised her staff and stabbed the front end through Shidou's projection camera.
"——《Segva -Lock》."
As Mukuro turned her key, in that instant—
With an accompaniment of static noise, Shidou's field of vision was thoroughly obstructed.
Basically Mukuro raises her hand and boom, her opponent is sealed. What does Hajime lead with again? If I remember correctly it was law manip, which Mukuro nulls and seals Hajime with it.
 
He leads with info analysis with a glance and proceeds to use the effective method to deal with her like pointing and shooting with his fingers (It's autolocked btw) or singing
 
ElixirBlue said:
For those who still thinks Komaede has the stronger luck, I'm taking NeoSuperior's words on the matter from another thread to quote.

NeoSuperior "The way I remember it, Naegi's luck is more of a "plot armor" kind of luck that prevents any fatalities to himself, considering there is no ending in any of the games or anime where he dies or even "loses" in the sense of not being able to come back as long as he keeps his hope. For example, only for him did Alter Ego reawaken to save him, but not for Kirigiri. Not sure how the wiki treats it, but his plot armor even works to the extent of "not giving up" = rewriting causality to undo his loss (unless this is just considered a "mere game mechanic").

The only exception was IIRC the Danganronpa 2 final trial, where Hajime was essentially under the same effects but took precedence. Or perhaps it was about the fact that Naegi placed his hope on Hinata's group and essentially passed the agency to him that way, or perhaps his "luck" was "preoccupied" with canceling out Junko's despair inducement that normally works like a mindhax on pretty much every single character other than Naegi.

Nagito on the other hand despite having "in general" far superior luck, doesn't neccessarily always get the result he wants and his death doesn't neccessarily get prevented either. His luck is also not retroactive causal, e.g. the one who actually killed him didn't "change" to someone else when the group used his luck itself as a datapoint to determine the culprit, making it weaker compared to Naegi in a "death battle" if we assume the causality game mechanic to count."
Click to expand...
Hajime has this luck and possibly has it stronger than Makoto's and it's combine with Nagito's.
 
Problem is that his info analysis has never let him know supernatural powers, and nothing Hajime can do can be done fast enough that he stops her, not without knowing her powers beforehand.
 
I don't know why people keep assuming the person with luck hax or Fate hax would have to actively do something for the Hax to work. Makoto's passive in nature. More passive then Nagito's.
 
Because his luck hax literally has nothing to do. It can't make her change her mind, and unless you want to tell me there is some projectile that his luck made magically appear a foot away from her head before the match starts, it can't do anything fast enough to stop her from sealing all his powers.

Luck isn't some invincible super power that does whatever and teleports rocks on top of the head's of Hajime's enemies to stop their attacks, which is what he would need for it to help him. So why do you keep arguing a moot point?
 
I don't remember that Mukuro has 4-D resistance to Probability Manipulation heck even she doesnt have resistance in her profile. So Hajime luck factors, you're basically ignoring one of Hajime's best arsenal and his luck is a superpower and can manipulate it. It's not good luck, it's supernatural luck and it works like probability manipulation that can factor Hajime and Ion pointed out that Mukuro's ability is not thought based
 
Makoto's luck can incap, as the start of the anime, Kyosuke Munakata had full intentions to kill Makoto. Then, after a series of events happen and Kyosuke Munakata "battle" Makoto, Kyosuke Munakata changed his mind and allied with Makoto.
 
Probability manipulation that doesn't effect her decisions in the least, just as it has effected no one's before, as has been established before.

So what can his luck do? Interfere with her indirectly, something it has actually done a bajillion times. Now, feel free to tell me what exactly can his luck do that stops her from raising her hand, which doesn't even take a second. What's so hard to get about this?
 
Mukuro... not wanting to raise her hand? Why are you fighting the luck hax when it can do that?
 
"Hajime got lucky that Mukuro decided she didn't want to attack Hajime."
 
Because you keep proposing that his power do something it has never done, which I've said a million times and somehow you keep not understanding.

Does Nagito just drop his gun and not fire against Hajime after he gets the surgery? No, the gun jams. Does Hajime decide not to try to kill? No, Nagito's handbook stop the bullet. Does his probability manipulation ever make someone consciously do stuff differently? No, it never has.

So I ask again because I am getting tired of this. Why are you assuming his power does something it has never done just because is probability Manipulation? It's not some limitless luck that does everything imaginable, so don't treat it like it is.
 
What do you mean what I said was never done? I just told you an example of Makoto's luck. I wasn't even talking about Nagito.
 
Because Mukuro doesnt resist probability manipulation? Might as well put resistance on Mukuro's profile if he can deal with his luck which Hajime manipulate freely. Even a tier 10 who has 3-D hax can work on tier 3
 
I am seriously wondering if I am talking to a wall.

It doesn't matter if Mukuro doesn't have probably manip resistance, because Hajime's, nor Nagito's, luck has ever made someone act differently. It has never affected them directly. Never. Ever. Nowhere.

I am getting tired of having to say this. ******* hell, are you actually reading what I say?
 
ElixirBlue said:
Makoto's luck can incap, as the start of the anime, Kyosuke Munakata had full intentions to kill Makoto. Then, after a series of events happen and Kyosuke Munakata "battle" Makoto, Kyosuke Munakata changed his mind and allied with Makoto.
Click to expand...
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
Series of events is longer than a gesture.
Click to expand...
So? He was asking if the luck can change someone's mind and it does. "He was lucky Kyosuke Munakata changed his mind." And time is irrelevant. How long the luck needs to make something happen does not matter.
 
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