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Mukuro vs. Hajime

Nagito's luck is perfectly capable of affecting the target's decisions, we get this in Case 5 of Danganronpa 2 where Nagito's luck made Chiaki happen to decide to pick a certain grenade which was poisoned when everyone else picked the non-poisoned ones thus making her the killer which was all part of Nagito's plan.

It shouldn't be much different here, Mukuro should happen to pick the wrong move to use against Hajime until the last inute.
 
Because Hajime literally has Nagito's bullshit powers implanted into him. Plus he literally outlucked the guy at some point.
 
No, that's a NFL and the worst kind at that. Luck being a vague concept doesn't give you free reign to assume "it just does whatever". It obviously doesn't do whatever. Nagito doesn't suddenly not want to fire, the terrorists don't suddenly not want to do their shit, someone doesn't suddenly not want a lottery ticket that actually won and gives it to Nagito. His luck has never affected the choices of people or their mentality. That's it, is that simple.

So no, that's not an argument.
 
Why would Hajime's luck scale to Nagito's luck?
-Ionliosite

The Hope's Peak Academy researched on all talented individuals through the money they got from "Reserve Students", basically the non-talented ones. Through brain tampering, and implanted all talents known to Humanity was implanted to Izuru Kamukura.

Though, the talents implanted to him should be WAY superior to the original holders.

Izuru Kamukura flawlessly defeated Nagito Komaeda in a luck battle, and this is also repeated again but to a polar opposite of Nagito Komaeda, the dream version of Nagito Komaeda in his stasis, where he's extremely unlucky, but on the same degree of his luck still. Couldn't beat Hajime's Alter Ego.

And also, with Hajime/Izuru's analytic mind, he should have flawless control over his luck as he knows how it works perfectly.
 
Except it has, again bringing up Chiaki's case.

Chiaki could've picked any other fire grenade, she could've decided to ran away, but no. Nagito's luck made her specifically choose the fire grenade that killed Nagito over literally every other possibility. Nagito said he'd leave that up to his Ultimate Luck for Chiaki to make that decision so he knew what his luck was capable of.

So it affecting mentality is actually a thing.
 
Hajime's luck beat Nagito's because he jammed the gun. It's physical phenomena for your brain to just not remember or think to do something even if it's so simple.
 
You would have a point if Chiaki knew which grenade would do that, or if she wasn't gonna throw a grenade at all and that only happened because of his luck.

But she was still gonna throw one, so he didn't do that. And she didn't know which one was the one, so that was purely chance, just as much chance as a gun jamming or a super small meteorite hitting a plain.

If his luck actually ****** with the mind of people, he would have mind manipulation as well.
 
And Edward is right, he actually believed on his luck that his "good luck" will pick the correct "person", and he wanted his good luck, for that person, to do his bidding.
 
... but that is still not mind manipulation. That is just chance. Chance that he will find the best person to do what he needs to do. Otherwise his luck would just make anyone good enough suddenly have a change of mind and decide to help, not lead him by CHANCE to the best person possible.
 
Well, the smallest chance that he wants this person to "not do this thing" and "do other things" can also happen, in this case. And that smallest chance can easily happen due to good luck.
 
He don't know what she will do, so he won't think about her doing other thing because he don't know what she does.
 
He will, he can basically predict the future with his brain power. And then what he sees that is bad in the future can be counteracted.
 
But by Occam's Razor that's bull. Is far more likely to assume that if his luck wouldn't just make someone change their mind to help him, then he'll just find someone with the mindset so that they'll wanna help him.

Either make a CRT to add that or don't use it, it really has no backing.
 
That doesn't really matter and is nitpicking at that point. She would still have needed to make the conscious choice to throw that specific grenade out of every grenade. Even if she decided to "throw the closest one to me" that's still decision making which Nagito affected

It isn't different here, Mukuro needs to make the conscious choice to use Sealing, physical attacks, or stat amps. Like Chiaki she would pick the incorrect one which would cause Hajime's plan to go as expected.
 
It's not mind manipulation. It's not that he can and wants them to "do this thing"

It's that he can alter the probability of them "doing this thing" and can make it happen easily. So, there's no need of CRTs.
 
Ionliosite said:
He don't know what she will do, so he won't think about her doing other thing because he don't know what she does.
Click to expand...
I'm fairly sure that him thinking "I want to win" is enough for his luck to kick in.
 
Ok, so he can change the conscious choice for someone to make something but it's not mind manip. Ok.
 
He will know what she will do though, through fortune telling, and then if that isn't sure enough, he can also analyze her with a look or analyze the future, and counteract everything.
 
Ionliosite said:
He don't know what she will do, so he won't think about her doing other thing because he don't know what she does.
Click to expand...
I just quoted it in his profile

He is capable of superhuman thinking as a result, and because of that he is capable of predicting the incoming future events with it and is able to read and analyze any information of an object or a person, and determine its personality, abilities, thoughts, and history of his foes as well as their weaknesses with a mere glance
 
But that's just your conjeture that is backed by nothing. His luck could have worked way better by just making people not do the one thing instead of letting him find the right person or letting the right thing happen at the right time. The examples really don't showcase what you are saying at all, so I am within my rights to say that ain't gonna work.

Call it nitpicking if you want, it is still an NLF when you are using bad examples to prove something that isn't. Not to mention Chiaki didn't make an incorrect choice, she made the choice she thought was the best but by CHANCE, she choose the grenade that helped Nagito. I am not sure how you actually believe this.
 
But that's just your conjeture that is backed by nothing. His luck could have worked way better by just making people not do the one thing instead of letting him find the right person or letting the right thing happen at the right time. The examples really don't showcase what you are saying at all, so I am within my rights to say that ain't gonna work.

Call it nitpicking if you want, it is still an NLF when you are using bad examples to prove something that isn't. Not to mention Chiaki didn't make an incorrect choice, she made the choice she thought was the best but by CHANCE, she choose the grenade that helped Nagito. I am not sure how you actually believe this.
-LSirLancelotDuLacl

First, okay, if that's directed at me, I didn't make that reasoning.

Second, he WANTED, that person to do it instead because he wanted that person to ESCAPE the killing game because she is not the Ultimate Despair.

Instead of wanting the people to NOT DO this. (I mean, to be fair, there's no proof that he wanted people NOT TO DO but a lot of proof that he really wanted "this someone to do" this)

But again, quoting my previous argument:

It's not mind manipulation. It's not that he can and wants them to "do this thing"

It's that he can alter the probability of them "doing this thing" and can make it happen easily. So, there's no need of CRTs.

i can take a shot for how many times I said "not to do/not to do this" and "to do/to do this" and I will probably die.
 
But that's the whole point that I keep repeating. Again, did anything at all like in anyway indicate that without his intervention and his luck, this wouldn't have happened anyway? That they specifically choose this direction because of him? Because your description doesn't sound like that at all. He would find the right person, so that already means the probability of them doing the one thing was high if not 100 because he wanted to find the right person for what he needed, right?

And literally all other showings are not about the chance of people deciding stuff.
 
Yeah, there is indication.

He didn't know who that Chiaki was the traitor. His luck made Chiaki who was the traitor decide to throw the specific grenade that would kill him, that's affecting decision making very precisely.

Plus he specifically said he would "trust his Ultimate Luck" that the entire situation would've happened, indicating that it likely wouldn't have happened if I don't know, Kuzuryu tried the plan.
 
No, there were a lot of people alive that were the "Ultimate Despair", and a lot of the grenades weren't really tampered with, only one existed.

The chances of them picking the grenade instead of her was really high.
 
Also if you want another example, in Chapter 1 everyone decided to draw to see who would be cleaning up the old abandoned buildings. They had to pick a stick and whoever drew the shortest one had to clean it up, Nagito drew the shortest one because everyone just so happened to decide to pick the ones that weren't the shortest.

And if you say he rigged it, no he didn't. He specifically stated in the trial he trusted his Ultimate Luck that everyone else would choose the longer ones and he would pick the shortest ones and he'd have no reason to lie about that.
 
Except that is not directly influencing Chiaki at all. Chiaki was gonna throw a grenade regardless of anything, and choosing which one was just an act of chance not at all influenced by conscious decision because she thought all were the same, and for good reason she would think that.

But Nagito still choose to shot, no decision changed despite the fact just shooting people is not something he does all the time. The terrorists still acted the very same. You are telling me that an accident that happened once where Chiaki didn't even consciously choose which grenade to throw, and the very act of throwing the grenade was something she was gonna do from the start, compares to Mukuro deliberately making "a bad decision" when she always, always, always starts with this one move, which would need mind manip because this is just what she knows is her best move to start with.

No, I am not convinced. And that's certainly not grounds for a vote.
 
There's a difference between:
Ultimate Luck directly affecting the conscious decision because luck.
and
Ultimate luck affecting the probability of "this person, doing this decision" because luck.

I never said it could directly affect the conscious. But the luck could make it happen so that "this person does this decision." (This is possible)
 
You are still doing the very same thing except you aren't listening. The CHANCE of him drawing the shortest happened, because there's no conscious choice. There's no worst or best move, just reaching in and seeing what comes out.

And you are equating this to Mukuro not using the move she always starts with. You are directly telling me Hinata's luck would make Mukuro act out of character. Now try and tell me how her acting out of character is literally anywhere the same as someone choosing something at random and hey, you just choose the one thing that wouldn't have been influenced by your personal thoughts, because there was none involved.
 
Point is, Nagito's luck is capable of making "X person do Y" for his benefit through sheer luck, as shown with Chiaki.

I'm not sure why it would be different to have Mukuro do Y instead of X in this situation because it would benefit Hajime if she did Y instead of X.
 
The point is, no, that is still not true. Luck didn't make Chiaki choose to throw a grenade, luck made her choose the right grenade to help Nagito's goals.

What you are saying would be directly make Mukuro out of character, which his luck has never done. So this is still moot.

Prof has at least been listing alternatives.
 
Why am I arguing for this anyways.

Hajime can create a lot of his own AI and put it in different avatars, now she's fighting a lot of Hajime.

Also, not to mention, all laws are separate in nature, so if she seals this "Rule A", this "Rule B" will counter act or even the other rules ranging from "Rule C to Z". And if she keeps sealing, Hajimeme will just create a new rule. And even the instant that a rule has been broken by her, she dies.

And then the constant distraction that the Ultimate Luck can cause.
 
Mukuro can seal multiple things at the same time, so creating different avatars would be moot againts the sealing.
 
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