Mortal Kombat 1 Discussion Thread

[JohnHendrix212]

EDIT: Based on my playthrough of the game this looks like a Hourglass related thing rather than a power thing.

I've just played through the story mode. It seems not really everything relates to the Hourglass.

Not only is every single universe tied to their hourglass (Shang shooting beams at one with some other randoms hurt Liu Kang and if it was destroyed his universe would collapse),

The Hourglass does indeed destroy the universe it is in.

but upon killing Shang Tsung the hourglass started to collapse the universe because someone wasn't their to regulate it.

There's no mention of this anywhere. There was no explicit mention of any Hourglass needing to be sustained. Liu Kang outright states that the Universe was collapsing because Shang Tsung himself wasn't there anymore. It's not about the Hourglass, it's about Shang himself seemingly being the sole foundation of his universe.

I think it would give all Titan people a "Low 2-C creation" rating or something, but I don't think anyone really qualifies for a straight upgrade to multiverse busting.

the Low 2-C creation feat themselves are the only feats that explicitly comes from the Hourglass. As in without it, they can't do it.

They fight right in front of the Hourglass and the Hourglass is explicitly tied to the sustainability of the universe and everyone within it.

Shang Tsung and Liu Kang directly states that the energies that splintered the timeline endlessly was from their fight, with no relating mention of the Hourglass at all. Now, the Titan amp that Liu Kang and Shang Tsung used did come from the Hourglass.

While we can stick to an argument for a thread, I'm not seeing this being an AP feat. But a byproduct of effecting the Hourglass.

I believe it's actually an AP feat, as directly stated by both Shang Tsung and Liu Kang. Adding the Hourglass in the equation when there's no explicit mention of it in the feat is pure conjecture in my opinion.

his is further reinforced by Shang Tsung's evil versions doing notable damage and fighting with other Titans rather than getting easily one shot.

Admittedly, this one has me stumped. Though really it's not such a stretch that Shang Tsung did something to amp them considering he got Shinnok's Amulet, or some other means through the Hourglass.

Edit: Went to see the fight again and I'm convinced they're just that powerful somehow. When Shang Tsung arrived and saw Liu Kang and his Titan pals, he merely mentions that Liu Kang has Titan allies, as though he wasn't worried at all that his own versions will be defeated easily. He was confident and pretty much casual about it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Liu Kang outright states that the Universe was collapsing because Shang Tsung himself wasn't there anymore.

He says the timeline is collapsing because Shang Tsung isn't holding it together anymore and it stops collapsing when Havok takes control of it afterwards. It's due to them guiding the Hourglass rather than their nature itself, it's why Liu Kang had Geras watch over the Hourglass.

Shang Tsung and Liu Kang directly states that the energies that splintered the timeline endlessly was from their fight, with no relating mention of the Hourglass at all

Their fight happens right in front of the Hourglass and the Hourglass itself is said multiple times in the story as controlling time/the universe. I don't see why we should assume it's them alone when they have zero other showings on this scale without the Hourglass.

pure conjecture in my opinion.

Assuming they performed a 2A feat with neither one realizing it is even more conjecture in my opinion.

Though really it's not such a stretch that Shang Tsung did something to amp them considering he got Shinnok's Amulet, or some other means through the Hourglass.

If Shang Tsung could make his goons 2-A then you're also saying everyone MK1 Raiden, Quan Chi and Shang Tsung fought should also be 2-A. Which would only make everything even more convoluted scaling wise.

Also don't forget: The timeline split had literally every other character kill Kronika and get the Hourglass. So this line of thinking would make everyone in MK11 2A.

I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

So this line of thinking would make everyone in MK11 2A.

If Shang Tsung could make his goons 2-A then you're also saying everyone MK1 Raiden, Quan Chi and Shang Tsung fought should also be 2-A. Which would only make everything even more convoluted scaling wise.

I mean, considering that everyone else defeated Kronica (which by logic would be 2-A) without being gods or with the power of jinsei like Liu Kang, this opens up gifts for everyone to end up being 2-A at the base. Since in their mk11 endings they didn't have any boost.

That's why mk powerscaling is screwed and I'm glad I'm not a supporter of it.

Good luck to everyone who will embark on this journey of pain.

 

[KLOL506]

Their fight happens right in front of the Hourglass and the Hourglass itself is said multiple times in the story as controlling time/the universe. I don't see why we should assume it's them alone when they have zero other showings on this scale without the Hourglass.

It happening in front of the Hourglass really doesn't mean much unfortunately, especially with the statement given by Shang Tsung. If it was a side-effect of the Hourglass they would've said this by now, given its importance. Sorry, but this argument really doesn't hold water for me. Especially considering destroying the Hourglass only nukes one timeline, not the rest. Hence, the whole "controlling time/the universe" also in turn applies to only one timeline, not all of them.

Assuming they performed a 2A feat with neither one realizing it is even more conjecture in my opinion.

That's MK1 for you. Butchering consistency one step at a time.

If Shang Tsung could make his goons 2-A then you're also saying everyone MK1 Raiden, Quan Chi and Shang Tsung fought should also be 2-A. Which would only make everything even more convoluted scaling wise.

Kinda a non-argument at this point given MK1 did that for us.

Also don't forget: The timeline split had literally every other character kill Kronika and get the Hourglass. So this line of thinking would make everyone in MK11 2A.

Once again, MK1 ruins pretty much everything in terms of consistency. Might as well throw it out at this point.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Once again, MK1 ruins pretty much everything in terms of consistency. Might as well throw it out at this point

If it's inconsistent we just get rid of the inconsistency. We don't go "Oh well" accepted it and them make everyone 2-A.

It being time shenanigans with eh Hourglass involves less overall hoops to jump through than the assumption that Stryker has a 2-A glock.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Once again, MK1 ruins pretty much everything in terms of consistency. Might as well throw it out at this point.

Was there really ever some smidgen of consistency prior to MK1 though?

 

[KLOL506]

It happening in front of the Hourglass really doesn't mean much unfortunately, especially with the statement given by Shang Tsung. If it was a side-effect of the Hourglass they would've said this by now, given its importance. Sorry, but this argument really doesn't hold water for me. Especially considering destroying the Hourglass only nukes one timeline, not the rest. Hence, the whole "controlling time/the universe" also in turn applies to only one timeline, not all of them.

Worse still, Geras and Liu Kang explicitly say that becoming the Keeper of Time grants you full power of the Hourglass and a power stronger than all the Elder Gods combined.

 

[KLOL506]

Was there really ever some smidgen of consistency prior to MK1 though?

Nope.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Stryker has a 2-A glock.

I know this isn't you main point, but Stryker wasn't in MK11, nor MK1 canon. Kameos are non-canon, mostly

 

[KLOL506]

If it's inconsistent we just get rid of the inconsistency. We don't go "Oh well" accepted it and them make everyone 2-A.

It being time shenanigans with eh Hourglass involves less overall hoops to jump through than the assumption that Stryker has a 2-A glock.

Honestly this would only scale to the Keepers of Time/Titan variants of them just for safety's sake.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I know this isn't you main point, but Stryker wasn't in MK11, nor MK1 canon.

Pick your poison: Reptile, Havok, Tanya, any version of Sub-Zero, Li Mei, Frost, Baraka and plenty of the mid to lower tiers of the verse would have fought and killed Kronika. While Styker is a cameo, the main point is that everyone beating Kronika would be canonized which would make everyone's base form 2A, which just does not make any sense.

Honestly this would only scale to the Keepers of Time/Titan variants of them just for safety's sake.

We can save it for the CRT but in my view its not an AP applicable feat.

 

[KLOL506]

but in my view its not an AP applicable feat.

We'll agree to disagree then.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Pick your poison: Reptile, Havok, Tanya, any version of Sub-Zero, Li Mei, Frost, Baraka and plenty of the mid to lower tiers of the verse would have fought and killed Kronika. While Styker is a cameo, the main point is that everyone beating Kronika would be canonized which would make everyone's base form 2A, which just does not make any sense.

I really don't see this as MK11 Ladder endings being canon (nor has it ever been confirmed to be the Ladder endings), more so like hypothetical timelines in which that particular character has undertaken what Liu Kang has been through to become Keeper of Time, then defeat Kronika.

But I do see your point.

 

[Quangotjokes]

I really don't see this as MK11 Ladder endings being canon (nor has it ever been confirmed to be the Ladder endings), more so like hypothetical timelines in which that particular character has undertaken what Liu Kang has been through to become Keeper of Time, then defeat Kronika.

But I do see your point.

They all aren’t canon, only canon ones are the ones shown to have been made canon.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I really don't see this as MK11 Ladder endings being canon (nor has it ever been confirmed to be the Ladder endings), more so like hypothetical timelines in which that particular character has undertaken what Liu Kang has been through to become Keeper of Time, then defeat Kronika.

But I do see your point.

Well we know Titan Kitana is from MK11 since MK1 Liu Kang is "her Liu Kang", but aside from that case, yeah, we have no reason to assume MK11 cast scale, they are more likely unknown versions, with unknown stories and unknown scaling, so only their Titan form should scale

 

[ZeedKZ]

Geras in one of his dialogues with Reptile describes himself as "a singularity, where all points in history meet". This should give him type 2 Acausality.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Let's not assume that every Time Keeper fought Kronika at all, or that they fought her in base form. They could have been under hella buffs like Liu Kang was, or they could have simply been appointed at some point after the previous Time Keeper decides to retire. The timeline split extends both forward and back from the Liu Kang vs Shang Tsung fight. All the Gods and characters could have given their powers to Mokap to beat Kronika for all we know in Time Keeper Mokap's timeline.

The information we do have is just that they are now Time Keepers. Don't need to give everyone 2-A (we don't know if there are infinite timelines so let's just consider 2-B for now) for their base forms.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Titan Raiden mentions he beat kronika

 

[Cyberblader90]

As for infinite timelines, it's mentioned in shangs ending in mk11 there infinite timelines

 

[Cyberblader90]

Worse still, Geras and Liu Kang explicitly say that becoming the Keeper of Time grants you full power of the Hourglass and a power stronger than all the Elder Gods combined.

Oh do you have the quote about being granted the power of the hour glass

 

[Quangotjokes]

As for infinite timelines, it's mentioned in shangs ending in mk11 there infinite timelines

Not canon

 

[KLOL506]

Oh do you have the quote about being granted the power of the hour glass

Prolly here. The conversations with Geras and Sindel specifically. Liu Kang also talks about how being the Keeper of Time makes him so much more powerful than all the Elder Gods combined.

 

[Hellbeast]

Worse still, Geras and Liu Kang explicitly say that becoming the Keeper of Time grants you full power of the Hourglass and a power stronger than all the Elder Gods combined.

Hell even the MK11 endings (which I guess are canon now) even mention that the Titans hold more power then the Elder Gods collectively, consistent with WOG that they’re a “higher operating system” then the EG’s.

titans are just built different and I think the argument of “oh everyone scales” is lame since that’s always been an issue we’ve had to avoid with MK. We need to go case by case here as per usual and I don’t think the average Joe scales anywhere near the likes of Titans

 

[SamanPatou]

I suggest to give Sound Manipulation to Nitara because Megan Fox's dub causes physical pain.

 

[Quangotjokes]

It should be noted that Liu Kang says he's going to summon an overwhelming army from "All" timelines then shows up to the battle with roughly a few hundred fighters.

Proving the number is finite.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

It should be noted that Liu Kang says he's going to summon an overwhelming army from "All" timelines then shows up to the battle with roughly a few hundred fighters.

Proving the number is finite.

Not really proof of anything. Liu Kang doesn't know how many timelines there are, nor is he going to show up with an infinite number of dudes.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

It should be noted that Liu Kang says he's going to summon an overwhelming army from "All" timelines then shows up to the battle with roughly a few hundred fighters.

He doesn't actually show up with fighters from all timelines. It'd take forever to fetch them. Shang Tsung wasn't gonna wait.

 

[Quangotjokes]

Not really proof of anything. Liu Kang doesn't know how many timelines there are, nor is he going to show up with an infinite number of dudes.

He doesn't actually show up with fighters from all timelines. It'd take forever to fetch them. Shang Tsung wasn't gonna wait.

He said All timelines, there aren't infinite timelines to pull from.

The implication is clear.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

He said All timelines, there aren't infinite timelines to pull from.

The implication is clear.

Regardless of finite or infinite timelines, Liu Kang isn't going to bring an uncountable number of dudes to the fight. There's also timelines where the bad guys won and Liu Kang won't be pulling anyone from them. Not to mention he doesn't really know about more than a few timelines where his friends were Titans. You need a better argument.

 

[Quangotjokes]

Regardless of finite or infinite timelines, Liu Kang isn't going to bring an uncountable number of dudes to the fight. There's also timelines where the bad guys won and Liu Kang won't be pulling anyone from them. Not to mention he doesn't really know about more than a few timelines where his friends were Titans. You need a better argument.

Of course he's not going to pull an uncountable amount of fighters when there's a finite amount of timelines. The bad guys winning doesn't mean there aren't still good warriors I'm those realities.

There's no justification for 2-A.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

@Quangotjokes Bro you seems to hate the tier 2 mk so much huh?

 

[KLOL506]

Let's just ignore the whole "endless possibilities" statement Liu Kang brought up and bring up some silly semantics to deny the idea, amirite?

@Quangotjokes Just stop bruh, let it go.

 

[Tipper17]

i mean it ain't definite so ya better of arguing Low Multi-Multi rating for now

 

[Quangotjokes]

Let's just ignore the whole "endless possibilities" statement Liu Kang brought up and bring up some silly semantics to deny the idea, amirite?

@Quangotjokes Just stop bruh, let it go.

Possibilities are endless, context being they can reset a timeline and do whatever they want. Let's not misrepresent what he said.

 

[Quangotjokes]

@Quangotjokes Bro you seems to hate the tier 2 mk so much huh?

Nah I actually advocated for it a while back. Did a whole upgrade thread lol. This here just isn't enough evidence though.

 

[KLOL506]

Possibilities are endless, context being they can reset a timeline and do whatever they want. Let's not misrepresent what he said.

I honestly can't be arsed enough to say that this simply isn't the case, but you do you I suppose.

 

[Hellbeast]

It should be noted that Liu Kang says he's going to summon an overwhelming army from "All" timelines then shows up to the battle with roughly a few hundred fighters.

Proving the number is finite.

Yeah that’s a good point, it’s likely just 2-C but I could see it being higher with more proof.

either way 2-C Mortal Kombat is ******* fire

 

[Quangotjokes]

I honestly can't be arsed enough to say that this simply isn't the case, but you do you I suppose.

He says the possibilities are endless but both He and shang both confirm they don't know how far times fabric was ripped.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I'm sorry, but I missed most of the conversation so I gotta ask

Are you guys going to scale fighters to Tier 2, and if yes, based on what ?

Currently, the Time Keeper doesn't scale physically to the Hourglass, Kronika is 8-A

 

[KLOL506]

He says the possibilities are endless but both He and shang both confirm they don't know how far times fabric was ripped.

The latter was before Liu Kang made the Possibilities comment. Like I said, semantics in a nutshell at this point.