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Monsterverse Ghidorah Revision

KieranH10 said:
Which series are these? Passive Weather Manipulation should in no way scale to Attack Potency, especially if there's no actual evidence of it doing so.
Also that about the other Kaiju tearing through the storms effortlessly is just more evidence of them not dealing damage at all...

Pretty much every argument about Weather Manip I've seen. Changing the weather isn't an attack. Even if it were the same energy stated to be powering both his storms and his attacks it's still environmental destruction, I've seen cases where the storms a character passively creates are directly stated to be created by the same type of energy the guy is powered by, but it got him nowhere tier wise because Weather=/=AP.

Why does that confirm anything? That could be changing the atmosphere of the planet over the course of like 500 years. Which leads to nothing.

The Meteor feat has been argued against, agree on that it didn't hit directly, and has a new calc putting it High 6-C without hitting point blank. Yes, the total explosion was 6-B, but Godzilla didn't take the full explosion.

Yes, that proves nothing for Ghidorah. Mothras feat is clearing clouds, Ghidorahs is creating them. Clearing clouds can be done and can correlate to AP because it's actual physical strength doing it. Ghidorahs cannot because he's making storms by some unknown means that have been shown to do nothing offensively.

That was a tiny town that he destroyed for starters. So unless you disagree with the Official size of Methuselah at 98.1456m. That mountain was at very most like 150 metres tall. Which is not mountain level.
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Everything from various anime, cartoons, etc. Thor has many storm calcs, My Hero characters do as well, among many more. Creating a storm with a tiny fraction of your energy would massively upscale your AP, there's no logic in saying it's hacks when it's not.
That's a stupid point because the storm deals damage to everything around it, as shown by Ghidorah wrecking Boston the second he landed in it. Very clearly the top tier monster just scale above it, not a hard concept to understand

Yes it is. It's a very tiny fraction of his power at that. That's a stupid example because the weather feat is an AP feat, not hacks.

That's the dumbest rebuttal ever, Godzilla healed from fatal wounds back to full health in well under 5 so there's no reason Ghidorah would take longer than that when it's said verbatim they can't let Godzilla heal naturally. It'd take too long. Clearly not talking about years. Stupid refutation.

Godzilla did tank the full explosion, the calculation assumes he was 10 kilometers away with no basis. People argue against the meteor because they shout "outlier" like parrots, nothing in the calc itself is inherently wrong. Godzilla also tanked it without even flinching so High 6-C doesn't hurt Godzilla in the slightest.

How? He scales massively above her. Ghidorah's wing flaps and bio-electricity create the storm, how many times does this need to be explained for you to understand that? It's an absolutely casual feat. This is the most idiotic counter argument I've ever heard.

Prove the town was tiny. You don't get to just assume things to lower their tier.
 
Dunno why you're saying the discussion points are stupid, dumb, idiotic, and more, honestly just makes you sound childish. But whatever...

I disagree with Thor's storm feat anyway and its honestly just there as a supporting feat because Thor already has feats way above it, but eh I guess yeah that is on there. Dunno what you're referring to with the MHA stuff tho.

The case I talk about was the Icon of Sin, who created storms equally as effortlessly and it got him absolutely nowhere tier wise, and isn't even used on his profile. In this case the Icon was creating storms with his own Argent energy, and is powered by this same stuff.

That's not dumb at all, when they said that they were referring to Ghidorah just blatantly killing Godzilla leaving them helpless. The entire point of the last portion of the movie is to juice up Godzilla so he can fight against Ghidorah, because they don't stand a chance in hell without him. We don't have a clue how long it would take to cause an extinction event, and we don't have a clue what kind of event it would be.

No he didn't though. It didn't hit him directly and the meteor shown in frame is very clearly going off to the side somewhere, but yes, Godzilla tanked the blast pretty easily, so he scale high above High 6-C, but that's it.

Yes, it's very clear that Ghidorah scales high above Mothra, if you're referring to the "Hurricane force winds" statement, that does not mean his wings create hurricanes, that means the force of his wing flaps create winds around him that are similar in speed and force to hurricanes.

That argument can literally be used against you with more baring for my side, prove the town and the mountain was a couple kilometres across. It's far more reasonable to assume Methuselah destroyed a mountain of his size, than one that'd be literally dozens of times larger than him. When Methuselah wakes up, he breaks out of a small mountain, and there's a small town nearby, these could even be what that statement is talking about. The mountain he breaks out of in that scene is essentially as tall as he is, making it around 100m tall max.
 
Then make coherent points. It's not childish when the points made have zero logic behind them.

Creating storms is s common as a display of power that the goddamn calculations page has a section for it. So if you're planning to just deny this so adamantly, I'll take it up with the mods.

The storm was used to bump the Icon of Sin from like building level to island level before it was changed, so no, they did accept the storm until it was changed. This was before the universal stuff was added.

This is all incorrect. We know Ghidorah was terraforming the planet to suit his wants, and his storms helped do so as well as the other creatures. Godzilla was their best chance because he's the only one who could match Ghidorah, and Ghidorah's storms were already confirmed to have caused mass extinctions before. Considering in, at most, ONE DAY Ghidorah despite being essentially jumped when weakened still covered entire continents in storms, formed many more and summoned the other monsters, the long timeframe thing is also not a good counter to his output.

Yes, he did. I've posted the scans many times now. He was right in the blast and it landed either right on him or very close to him as it almost touched ground above his head and the crater it left was right in front of him. He would scale to the vast majority of the asteroid's energy, at the very least High 6-C to 6-B. Maybe not all 7 teratons, but close to. 10 kilometers away is pure headcanon and measurements should be done.

Despite the fact his wings carry the storm with him? And cause it to begin with? Ghidorah just getting up didn't really create a storm in Antarctica until he began to fight Godzilla so it's definitely not passive hacks.

Wrong, an entire town wouldn't fit in a hundred meter radius. It's much more reasonable that Methuselah could destroy a full mountain when his bio confirms he can drag away entire civilizations.
Furthermore, the other mountain level feats are performed by other kaiju simply existing, the mere flap of wings, clearly not offensive attacks. Downplaying them to mountain level is stupid. Especially when Godzilla and Ghidorah have these much higher tier feats.
 
Dual_Binoculars said:
Currently Ghidorah is 6-B for generating very large hurricanes and that is scaled to his physical stats. Every time Ghidorah has engaged in combat he always opts to using his gravity beams or physical blows. He has never once used his storms directly in combat, instead the storms seem to be more of a passive effect of his electric properties. I believe his storms should fall under the category of Environmental Destruction thus he should be 7-A Physically up to 6-B with Environmental Destruction. All other Monsters that are 6-B should also be downgraded to 7-A since they should scale to Ghidorah's physical stats and not his storms.
Click to expand...
I disagree with this,since Godzilla and Ghidorah are at least comparable to MUTO prime,which could cause earthquakes across a country
 
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Sure...

If you actually read my comment to that, I didn't refute it, however Ghidorah's profiles already treats his weather manip as environmental destruction. Honestly it doesn't even make sense for his tiering right now "6-B with weather manip, possibly high 6-A environmental destruction with weather manip"

Yes, and then it was changed, because it was wrong... The storm feat is no longer used on his profile as an AP feat, and it wasn't before the Universal stuff because he was still scaling to that storm when the universal stuff was added. It was changed because it just shouldn't scale to his physicals in any way.

About the Goji being their only hope, That's what I said, yes, they needed Godzilla because he's the only one who could contend with Ghidorah. What's that got to do with his storms?
I'm also not refuting that Ghidorah's storms are causing mass extinctions, I'm saying we don't know how long it'd take. If Godzilla were to die, it doesn't matter how long it'd take because Humanity would be ****** anyway without Goji, it could take decades and humanity would still be just as ******, which is why the movie treats it as urgent, not because Ghidorah was gonna terraform the planet in a matter of days.
Also, what are you claiming this extinction is then? Because I heard 2 possible completely different stories in than paragraph alone, 1 being the storms and 2 being something to do with the the other titans, if it's 1 then firstly it's already environmental destruction on his page, unless you wanna upgrade the verse to High 6-A while you're at it, secondly hurricanes alone are not going to cause a mass extinction event, yeah they'll tear the place up, but never has a series of hurricanes ever caused a mass extinction event, nor have they ever been able to terraform the planet. And for whatever the titan thing was, that's not even Ghidorah doing anything in that case, so I dunno what that was brought up for.

Measurements cannot be done for how far away that meteor landed for starters, unless we know exactly which direction it was going, which we don't. and I dunno what you're saying with "It was nearly on the ground going over Godzilla." That thing was hundreds of metres in the air in that panel, and the trail it left was showing us very clearly that it wasn't heading right for him, top this with meteors travelling at kilometres per second and by the time it'd take that meteor to reach the ground it's gonna be kilometres away.

What's your source for his wings causing this storm? Because the only thing you've provided was "Hurricane Force Winds" which is blatantly wrong. And the scenario in which he created the storms have nothing to do with whether it should be scaling to AP.

That bio itself confirms his size of 322ft. You're legitimately trying to tell me that it's more reasonable to assume and massively overestimate a feat, than it is to use a clip we actually see, which also fits the description of this same feat.
As for the "downplaying" as you call it, yes, it is performed easily, but the likes of Mothra and Rodan literally don't have anything else to scale to, they did no major damage to Godzilla or Ghidorah and were only there for extra support. They don't scale to Godzilla or Ghidorah anyway. But sure I guess Mothra and Rodan should get an "At least 7-A" on their profile.
 
I'll make this brief.

This is with the much more widespread weather manipulation, likely the novel's thousands of varying levels of storm. The other monsters were also creating mass destruction on the global scale. That's why it's marked as over time/environmental destruction. This main storm moves with Ghidorah everywhere he goes, a feat that also so happens to be high into country via the storm's mass. So not only is generating it in Ghidorah's paygrade, but the fact he pulls it along with him shows he would scale to it. This would not be environmental destruction. This is clearly in their ability to do physically.

This counter makes no sense. The storms were doing a lot of damage as is, and the other creatures were helping out. Ghidorah was going to eventually terraform the planet, no mountain buster is going to do that in any span of time is the point. While yeah we don't know how long exactly it'd take, the fact is that the storm clearly does damage and it's generated by small percentages of what Ghidorah attacks with, so he would scale to it.

Why not? We blatantly see it above him in panel. Angle calculators and pixel measurements should be able to give us a distance. Prove it was hundreds of meters in the air. The issue with arguing it was hitting kilometers away but then acting like it can't be measured out is that it simply contradicts itself. You insist it cannot be closer but don't want to check.

Prove the source is wrong. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You want evidence, but then the evidence is wrong? What type of logic is that?

Mothra and Rodan's very casual feats would put them bare minimum this high, Ghidorah and Godzilla being THEIR tier is utter downplay. I frankly don't see how it's a problem in the scaling or lore that the two top predators who blatantly can mess with and one shot these creatures would only be the same tier.
 
You cant separate the same Weather Manipulation into two tiers either way, it's the same Weather Manipulation that's being referenced for both justifications, the huge storms he's making, you also just brought up now that the High 6-A stuff should be environmental destruction. But the 6-B storm shouldn't? That storm is just another storm contributing to the High 6-A stuff, it's literally the exact same thing, why should it be any different?
And I don't think that KE calc would be valid for tiering, the KE page says:
"feats should only be used if the fiction has made clear that the speed of the movement correlates to the character's power or if the character uses the fast moving object to attack"
Ghidorah moving the storm doesn't really fit in that since he's not using the storm to attack. Even if it were viable, it'd need putting into an actual calc and looked at by staff before it could be accepted.

The storms were damaging the environment, not his opponents, they weren't meant to be offensive attacks like his gravity beams, they were created solely to terraform the planet over time. In which we don't know how long. So the storm feats should stay environmental destruction, and like i've said, other cases that were just like this have not gone through, such as the Icon, who had the exact same thing you're trying to justify, but it was agreed after a lot of discussion that it shouldn't scale to physicals. Staff were there too, and yeah, it'd take forever for a Mountain buster to terraform the planet, but Ghidorah will still keep his High 6-A Environmental Destruction on his profile, which will cover that.

Because we still don't know the angle at which it was going, sure we could figure out how far above Godzilla the meteor was, but after that we'd need an angle to measure the trajectory, something we cant get from what we see in that panel. So 10km was an estimate based on the meteor clearly going off to the side far more than it was currently going down.

I have... Hurricane force winds are not hurricanes. Hurricane force winds are just wind that exceeds 118km/h. As for the rest of that, i've already been over why only "It's a little bit of his power" isn't enough evidence to scale his AP to his environmental destruction.
And how the hell did I say the evidence was wrong when you only gave it in that reply?

That's not how it works at all... Saying that someone is 6-B because they performed a very casual 7-A attack is ridiculous. Godzilla and Ghidorah wont be their tier, they'll be High 6-C when the calc gets accepted.

But this is going nowhere at this point, I'm asking for some staff input.
 
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no matter what happens i hope in KvG we will get
massive spoilers..
.
.
Absolute zero canon and feats
 
I meant on this thread.
I have asked Weekly to help with the thread and Spino with the calc.
 
We're not in agreement at all, but it's out of my hands if you contacted staff. No real point in discussing things when the mods get involved and shit on discourse with their own opinions.

Once more the storms do damage to lesser monsters in the lore and damage to the environment through both the film and novel as well as the biography explaining how he forms them. It's not magic nor hacks, it's AP and Biology. The fact Godzilla, Rodan and Mothra don't get hurt mean jack because Godzilla's as powerful if not more so than Ghidorah to begin with. Rodan and Mothra while weaker aren't complete fodder but it is explicit that Ghidorah doesn't take either seriously. That said, it was stated Godzilla, Mothra and Rodan working together would stomp Ghidorah into the dirt. The gravity beams did actual damage to Godzilla, Rodan and Mothra so would just scale above the energy needed to form these gigantic storms. It's not hard to understand.

Yes it is, why the Hell wouldn't it be? His power scales massively above what generates the storms, the storms are excess formed from his wing flaps and electrical presence alone, let alone his actual attacks utilizing the same damn energy source. It's utterly stupid to try acting like they're different when we directly see the large storms when Ghidorah is still weakened and they grew larger as he recovered.

That's why we get it calced, to check what angles are needed. Guessing 10 kilometers when the crater/fissure is nowhere near that distance from Godzilla is frankly absurd which is consistent with it being pretty low to the ground when Godzilla spots it, I wouldn't imagine higher than 300 meters to so. Saying we can't do it is an assumption without even trying. The fact these 7-A feats happened from them simply EXISTING would support the fact that Ghidorah, who is much more powerful and larger, would do greater things by default from also simply existing. And look at that, his feats come from not ripping a tiny hole in a storm or only causing a volcano to explode, but covering chunks of continents in an impossibly large hurricane. It's very likely they'd still hit country assuming that calc replaces the one on Godzilla's page since again it didn't even make him flinch.
 
If you contacted staff, there's no point in arguing since they'll just assert their own opinion and win regardless. That said your arguments are still terrible.

Large island is a lowball but not too absurd I guess, mountain for Godzilla or Ghidorah though is actually braindead.
 
Ok then... I'll keep it quick and wait for staff because this is going nowhere...

Source for the storm ever damaging a weaker monster is needed before that's valid. Doesn't matter at all how they're created because they don't scale to physicals in any way, Icon had a storm feat that uses the same energy, that's not valid, this is no different. If we scaled environmental destruction to AP, we wouldn't need environmental destruction in the first place. Cases like this are exactly why we have it...

I'm not trying to act like they're different... I'm saying they don't have a basis to begin with...

It has been, but you refuse to accept that. Angles are unjustified effort because it'd all be an assumption anyway, with little no no reliable estimations based on the one image we get.
We cant figure out what angle it's going at reliably because we get one panel of it, top that with a weird viewing angle, top that with we cant find what angle it's going down, and at that point there's pretty much no point in trying because the entire thing is a crappy estimation anyway.

But sure, staff has been contacted. We'll see what they say.
But thanks for complementing my arguments! I wasn't ever arguing 7-A for Goji or Ghidorah but thanks for the braindead comment too!
 
Basically we agreed to treat Ghidorah's storms as environmental destruction and scale his physical stats to being superior to Mothra's 7-A feat. This would also downgrade all the top tiers to 7-A since they scaled to Ghidorah's storms. Also we're waiting to see if this calc will be accepted because it would affect the scaling for the top tiers.
 
Yes, most of us agree that the cast should be downgraded because the storms are clearly environmental destruction.
There's currently an ongoing calc that will upgrade the top tiers to High 6-C, but for now they will be downgraded to 7-A until that's accepted.

SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King still believes that they should not be downgraded.
 
Bump
@Firestorm what do you think should be done?

Edit: Just a heads up, the Meteor calc was accepted at the high end. So the top tiers will be High 6-C.
 
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@Firestorm808 What do you think should be done then?

The majority of us are in agreement with the OP. How do you feel the weather feats should be treated?
 
The updates cant be applied without a staff member agreeing. So we're waiting on Firestorm.
I will apply the revision if Firestorm agrees.
 
KieranH10 said:
The updates cant be applied without a staff member agreeing. So we're waiting on Firestorm.
I will apply the revision if Firestorm agrees.
Click to expand...
Well calcs that get accepted by calc group members dont really need a second approval from mods unless is something controversial.

And this is not the case...
 
Yes but right now the tiers are higher than the calc anyway. We should just wait until this thread goes through and then it can all be done at once.
 
KieranH10 said:
Yes but right now the tiers are higher than the calc anyway. We should just wait until this thread goes through and then it can all be done at once.
Click to expand...
Yeah the tiers are higher but the calc was accepted so the downgrade can be applied.

I can call a mod if needed
 
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