Miss Kobayashi’s Dragon Maid: Shouldn't the massively hypersonic+ speed of Tohru and the rest of her race be merely their flight speed?

[Ong.ruixiang]

As the Massively Hypersonic+ flight speed of Kanna is merely stated as "flying from Japan to New York City in a very brief timeframe".

 

[Antvasima]

@SuperKamiNappa @Arrogant_Schmuck @Phoenks @Ecstasy_Amphetamine @Serpent_of_the_Internet_97

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I haven't seen this series in a while, but yeah I think OP is correct.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the reply.

 

[Antvasima]

Would somebody be willing to calculate the flight speed feat?

 

[Arrogant_Schmuck]

Ant, the feat is calculated already. I believe what the OP is saying is that the MHS+ rating should only be their flight speed, not attack speed, reaction speed, etc.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information. Has that calculation blog been linked to in the profile pages?

Also, I was aware of that this is the OP's intention, but would appreciate input regarding whether his assessment seems to be accurate.

 

[Phoenks]

Ant, the feat is calculated already. I believe what the OP is saying is that the MHS+ rating should only be their flight speed, not attack speed, reaction speed, etc.

I disagree. Kanna is the weakest of the dragons, who performed the feat casually. And dragons often fight with each other while flying, such as when Tohru fought with Ilullu, so I see no reason their reaction or combat speed shouldn't scale either.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems to make sense. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Qawsedf234]

And dragons often fight with each other while flying,

This isn't a justification for scaling flight to combat speed actually (see thr Legends Star Wars and Smallville speed downgrades). MCU Captain Marvel fights while flying but we don't scale her to MFTL+ as a more obvious example. If they didn't preform complex actions during the feat and if it was over an open area where they wouldn't require sudden movements then it's just flight speed.

 

[Phoenks]

This isn't a justification for scaling flight to combat speed actually (see thr Legends Star Wars and Smallville speed downgrades). MCU Captain Marvel fights while flying but we don't scale her to MFTL+ as a more obvious example. If they didn't preform complex actions during the feat and if it was over an open area where they wouldn't require sudden movements then it's just flight speed.

Would it not scale to reaction speed when the dragons are flying at each other during these battles and actively being able to react to and combat one another?

They are reacting to their flight speed specifically so how wouldn't it scale?

 

[Bernkastelll]

This isn't a justification for scaling flight to combat speed actually (see thr Legends Star Wars and Smallville speed downgrades). MCU Captain Marvel fights while flying but we don't scale her to MFTL+ as a more obvious example. If they didn't preform complex actions during the feat and if it was over an open area where they wouldn't require sudden movements then it's just flight speed.

The reason to downgrade it's wrong then, because Maid Dragon characters clearly can react to their flight speed

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Could you provide evidence of them battling while flying?

 

[Bernkastelll]

Could you provide evidence of them battling while flying?

After day 28

 

[Bernkastelll]

After day 28

Nvm, just found an example, source: chapter 31

scan 1:
scan 2:
scan 3:
scan 4: (this scene looks confusing, but its basically, tohru and illulu fighting)


there has others examples in the manga, but I only have this for now.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Nvm, just found an example, source: chapter 31

scan 1:
scan 2:
scan 3:
scan 4: (this scene looks confusing, but its basically, tohru and illulu fighting)


there has others examples in the manga, but I only have this for now.

So, Basically, Illulu flies in Tohru direction, Tohru reacts and says Kobayashi gets back, then she looks to Illulu and says TCH, then procedes to kicks Illulu, Illulu starts flying then Tohru flies as well, then Tohru attacks her, but Illulu dodges and appear in Tohru direction, and they starting trading blows in scan 4, then tohru attacks defeats Illulu

 

[Qawsedf234]

Would it not scale to reaction speed when the dragons are flying at each other during these battles and actively being able to react to and combat one another?

You're essentially confusing two instances there. If the MHS+ thing is being argued as travel speed to scale that to combat speed you would need something of the following:

• During the feat itself she fought someone - As an example Post-Crisis Superman exchanging blows with SBP for his speed feat
• During the feat itself she preformed a complex action that would imply her reflex speed matches her acceleration - As an example FOX Quicksilver running through the mansion or CW Flash running in and out of a falling train to save people
• Have something that backs she can rapidly hit her top speed during a fight that someone then reacts to - As an example Dragon Ball has hard statements that flight speed increases with ki pool and scales to combat speed.

Just because dragons fight in the air does not mean they would automatically scale to the MHS+ feat, since they could just be moving slower in that instance. You would need to prove she was moving that fast during the fight itself.

 

[Bernkastelll]

You're essentially confusing two instances there. If the MHS+ thing is being argued as travel speed to scale that to combat speed you would need something of the following:

• During the feat itself she fought someone
• During the feat itself she preformed a complex action that would imply her reflex speed matches her acceleration
• Have something that backs she can rapidly hit her top speed during a fight that someone then reacts to

my scans does shows it ig

 

[KLOL506]

The scans for the MHS+ feat are dead.

 

[Bernkastelll]

The scans for the MHS+ feat are dead.

they don't work??

edit: wait, which ones?

 

[Qawsedf234]

my scans does shows it ig

I've edited my comment to explain myself better, but for the scans you've posted that doesn't really fir in of the criteria for backscaling. You've proven they can fight in the air, but you would need to prove they can fight in the air at MHS+ speeds. Just fighting in of itself isn't evidence of scaling combat speed to travel speed.

 

[Bernkastelll]

you would need to prove they can fight in the air at MHS+ speeds.

We saw Illulu flying in tohru direction, then she answers with a ''TCH'' and kicks Illulu, thats literally reacting to Illulu flight and countering it. thats the scan 1 and 2, how is it not reacting to a MHS flight?

 

[Qawsedf234]

they don't work??

They're talking about the scans in the calc blog. All of them are dead.

 

[Qawsedf234]

We saw Illulu flying in tohru direction, then she answers with a ''TCH'' and kicks Illulu, thats the scan 1 and 2, how is it not reacting to a MHS flight?

Because of my previous point:

they would automatically scale to the MHS+ feat, since they could just be moving slower in that instance. You would need to prove she was moving that fast during the fight itself

 

[Bernkastelll]

Because of my previous point:

why would she not move fast in a fight if they can casually reach the MHS speeds? the MHS feat from Kanna was casual, and Kanna is literally a fodder dragon in the verse, she is the worst there, and Tohru and Illulu fight was a hard fight that could have caused death, why would they suddently moves slower than a fodder weak dragon that peformed a casual MHS feat?

 

[Bernkastelll]

actually, the feat should be 10x faster, since, the calc assumes 15/10 seconds, but iirc, the average timeframe that we currently use to feats that happend in a manga page to other page it's 1 second

 

[Qawsedf234]

why would she not move fast in a fight if they can casually reach the MHS speeds?

Because this is the rule regarding travel speed

Regarding Travel/Flight Feats and Reactions​

If a character travels or flies very fast through a very empty terrain, in which it doesn't necessarily have to react to sudden obstacles, the speed in question is travel or flight speed, but not necessarily reaction speed. In order for it to also be reaction speed, and the speed in total hence applying to the character's combat speed, the character either must have demonstrated the ability to react to sudden obstacles while traveling at this speed, have a calculation made that supports the character having corresponding reaction speed/time or otherwise demonstrate having comparable reactions.

Simply being able to stop accurately at the target destination does typically not qualify, as it can be spotted from a large distance to make preparations to stop or the character could even slow down before reaching the destination, assuming we only know the average speed with which they moved.

The typical example of such cases of travel/flight speed that doesn't necessarily scale to reactions is space travel. As space is incredibly empty there are virtually no objects one has to navigate around between destinations. Just flying in a straight line from A to B would be safe. At the same time the typical destinations, such as stars and planets, are so large that they can easily be seen from millions of kilometers away. As a result a character would only need reactions equal to a miniscule fraction of their travel speed to perform a safe and precise landing on them.

I've highlighted the portions that likely apply here. Just simply being able to reach MHS+ speeds in a couple seconds does not indicate they scale to the speed feat. We have plenty of example of characters breaking into the MFTL range without it scaling to their reactions for these reasons.

At this point speed no longer requires basic evidence to scale from A to B. You need active proof that they scale from A to B, so the bar of evidence is higher compared to most cases with speed.

the average timeframe that we currently use to feats that happend in a manga page to other page it's 1 second

We.... do not do that. We only use one second if the narrative supports one second.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I've highlighted the portions that likely apply here. Just simply being able to reach MHS+ speeds in a couple seconds does not indicate they scale to the speed feat. We have plenty of example of characters breaking into the MFTL range without it scaling to their reactions for these reasons.

So, the bold part mentions:
the character either must have demonstrated the ability to react to sudden obstacles while traveling at this speed, have a calculation made that supports the character having corresponding reaction speed/time or otherwise demonstrate having comparable reactions.

which is what happend, since, Tohru, with her hands and a kick, stopped Illulu while Illulu was flying and Tohru was immobile in the floor, Tohru was not flying, so,it can't be Tohru flight speed, because she was not flying, meaning that her combat and reaction speed also scales, ''couple of seconds'' its not the argument, but the fact that it was made by a fodder character and really casual, we have no reason to assume that bloodlusted top tiers dragons won't fight at these speeds, even with feats, since, Tohru stopped Illulu flight with her hands and a kick, and Tohru was not flying in that scene

We.... do not do that. We only use one second if the narrative supports one second.

I do remember someone saying it

 

[Qawsedf234]

which is what happend

You're confusing what that post is referring to. Them fighting is obviously not flight speed but isn't proveably MHS+ either, since that is all scaling. This standard of evidence applies only to Kanna flying to NYC, which is where the MHS+ rating comes from.

You would need to prove the bolded parts apply to Kanna in order for people to scale to that speed. Otherwise it's likely just travel speed since she could just fly really fast at a high enough altitude to avoid any obstacle in her path.

 

[Bernkastelll]

You're confusing what thst post is referring to. Them fighting is obviously not flight speed bit isn't proveably MHS+ either, since thst is all scaling. This standard of evidence applies on to Kanna flying to NYC, which is where the MHS+ rating comes from.

You would need to prove the bolded parts apply to Kanna in order for people to scale to that speed.

Let me see, so, this is a Kanna-Only thread and not envolved with Illulu and Tohru feat? then sure I guess, however, Kanna can tag tohru with her attacks and also dodge Tohru attacks, but they stated that they were just playing around, so, whatever, well, I don't mind what happens to Kanna, because it doesnt affect the others characters at all

 

[KLOL506]

Let me see, so, this is a Kanna-Only thread and not envolved with Illulu and Tohru feat? then sure I guess, however, Kanna can tag tohru with her attacks and also dodge Tohru attacks, but they stated that they were just playing around, so, whatever, well, I don't mind what happens to Kanna, because it doesnt affect the others characters at all

IIRC their attacks can reach outer space within a very short timeframe, can they not?

Tohru vs Elma comes to mind. Their combat speed could be considerably swifter than their flight speed.

 

[Bernkastelll]

IIRC their attacks can reach outer space within a very short timeframe, can they not?

I do remember something like that happening in Elma vs Tohru fight

 

[Qawsedf234]

Let me see, so, this is a Kanna-Only thread and not envolved with Illulu and Tohru feat

To layout what the OP's point is

• Everyone is currently MHS+ because of Kanna's feat
• Kanna's feat is travel speed
• Ergo, everyone has MHS+ travel speed but their combat speed now needs a different justification or will be lowered to the next provable speed. Be thst supersonic or whatever.

 

[KLOL506]

I do remember something like that happening in Elma vs Tohru fight

Yeah, Tohru and Elma's beam clash easily reached outer space in the manga. IDK about anime but the feat should be visually similar.

 

[Bernkastelll]

To layout what the OP's point is

• Everyone is currently MHS+ because of Kanna's feat
• Kanna's feat is travel speed
• Ergo, everyone has MHS+ travel speed but their combat speed now needs a different justification or be lowered

Meh, they can fly and fight in the floor in the same speeds, as Tohru doesnt need to fly to catch bloodlusted illulu flying, and Tohru attacks along with Elma also reached the outer space in a single page, and they can dodge their attacks, they can fight etc, ig their combat/reaction scales to their flight speed anyways

 

[Qawsedf234]

Meh, they can fly and fight in the floor in the same speeds, as Tohru doesnt need to fly to catch bloodlusted illulu flying,

You would need a statement or another feat for this point to have backing. Them fighting vaguely fast is not justification for scaling flight speed to combat speed.

Tohru attacks along with Elma also reached the outer space in a single page, and they can dodge their attacks

If they scale to their beams' speed, then yes, that can be used for combat speed.

 

[Bernkastelll]

not justification for scaling flight speed to combat speed.

I mean, dragons can fly with each other there, and they also can react and fight against others flying dragons even if they aren't flying but the enemy dragon is, why would it not scale?

 

[Qawsedf234]

why would it not scale

Because there's no indication given so far that they're moving at MHS+ speeds.

Again, you need a hard statement or explicit supporting evidence that they fight at MHS+ speeds. Just fighting isn't enough, since they could be moving much slower.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Because there's no indication given so far that they're moving at MHS+ speeds.

Again, you need a hard statement or explicit supporting evidence that they fight at MHS+ speeds. Just fighting isn't enough, since they could be moving much slower.

And for which reason they would move slower than a fodder dragon that peformed a casual feat?

 

[Bernkastelll]

''Ayo, I am bloodlusted and the enemy can kill me, I will move really slow because I want to, even when a baby that is billion years younger than me, literally, as Kanna is only around 1 thousand years is casually MHS, and me and others dragons warriors lives older than earth creation''