Misconceptions about UES and Multipliers

[Digital_Franz]

Permission granted by @Mr. Bambu.

As the title says, I would like to address a misconception about UES and Multipliers.

The primary problem is that literally some people don't even understand what a UES is.

The definition on the page is as follows:

Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

I don't know how to make them understand this simple definition. These people think that a UES affects Speed because of "all the other stats" (Read to the right at the bottom). The idea itself is ridiculous. An energy cannot scale to a Speed.

To improve their understanding I would like to propose this rewording:

Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would scale directly to these three statistics: Attack Potency, Stricking Strength and Durability. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

The change is not very significant. In itself it would allow me to move on to the next point: Multipliers and UES.

The misconception having first of all a relation between a UES and Speed, is that if Multipliers are applied to a UES, then these Multipliers apply directly to the Speed.

The example very often used is that of Dragon Ball without any knowledge of how Ki and Multipliers work in Dragon Ball.

This example raises a point: one must understand what is the difference between the energy output and the amount of energy possessed by a character.

The Ki Manipulation page says that manipulating and increasing the Ki in the body amplifies statistics. It is obvious here that the Ki contained in the body is the energy output which is different from the total amount of energy and that by increasing this energy output (increasing the Ki in the body), a character is able to increase his stats.
These scans explain again well that it is about manipulating the Ki contained in the body.

So I would like to first say that statements like "the energy has been increased by 10" in the sense of the amount of energy possessed do not mean anything because the amount has just been increased but not the output and therefore not the power.
This can be compared to a car, in the sense that increasing the tank capacity and the quantity of gasoline does not influence the capacities of the car.

Furthermore, what they ignore is that Dragon Ball has Multipliers applying to Speed also because it has been directly stated and on many occasions. Therefore Multipliers applying to a UES that are not stated to also affect Speeds will not apply to Speed.

Overall, a note would probably be needed saying that Multipliers applying in a verse with a UES are no different from those in other verses without UES because for them to be applied, there should be a specification on the statistic(s) affected.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @DarkGrath @Dereck03 @Planck69

What do you think about this?

 

[SamanPatou]

Seems ok, I thought the definition was already as simple as that, but if this minor addition can help clearing things out, then it is a welcomed one.
The ki manipulation thing should be handled elsewhere though, because while on a UES it can be assumed that characters with similar levels of energy share the same speed, the amplification and reduction should not be compared to energy, but rather multipliers, if anything and encompassing all stats.
DB has also its internal contradictions and caveats about speed, so that requires more scrutiny.

 

[Agnaa]

I think we do generally treat UES's as affecting speed. If a character with a UES has multiple spells they can cast, we generally take them to travel at the same speed, occasionally running contrary to what the piece of fiction implies. ofc this can't scale across stats, as joules, force, and speed are different quantities, but within those we treat them as generally scaling.

I'd welcome a change in that area, but I think that'd broaden the scope of this thread.

And, due to the way that we treat UES's as working, we'd treat 3x more energy in the UES as equating to 3x more power. As a fundamental part of the UES definition is that characters can supply arbitrary amounts of that energy system into any of their abilities.

Changing this would require dismantling UES's entirely, and that has been suggested before, albeit from a slightly different angle, but the core of "the same energy source may not empower different attacks in the same way" is shared in both arguments.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Seems ok, I thought the definition was already as simple as that, but if this minor addition can help clearing things out, then it is a welcomed one.

Thanks.

The ki manipulation thing should be handled elsewhere though,

Honestly I wouldn't even like to deal with this case. I would risk getting jumped by the supporters. By mentioning this I just wanted to point out how many take example from it and even from Chakra but Chakra got nuked by KingTempest.

because while on a UES it can be assumed that characters with similar levels of energy share the same speed, the amplification and reduction should not be compared to energy, but rather multipliers, if anything and encompassing all stats.

I totally agree with this.

DB has also its internal contradictions and caveats about speed, so that requires more scrutiny.

If anyone thinks of doing it one day.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I think we do generally treat UES's as affecting speed. If a character with a UES has multiple spells they can cast, we generally take them to travel at the same speed, occasionally running contrary to what the piece of fiction implies.

For the attack speed I agree although there are always verses in which it will not be the case. I just do not think that the increase in energy would influence the combat speed. Otherwise a character in a verse with UES who evolves from 8-A with a Hypersonic speed to 5-C should have a Massively FTL+ speed.

ofc this can't scale across stats, as joules, force, and speed are different quantities, but within those we treat them as generally scaling.

Weird.

I'd welcome a change in that area, but I think that'd broaden the scope of this thread.

I would like to change this. It fits into one of my goals. If you have a suggestion I could add it.

And, due to the way that we treat UES's as working, we'd treat 3x more energy in the UES as equating to 3x more power. As a fundamental part of the UES definition is that characters can supply arbitrary amounts of that energy system into any of their abilities.

Which in itself is really not correct. The quantity does not influence the output. There are many cases in fiction where characters are stronger than others who have more energy.

Changing this would require dismantling UES's entirely, and that has been suggested before, albeit from a slightly different angle, but the core of "the same energy source may not empower different attacks in the same way" is shared in both arguments.

I didn't know this topic had been raised before.

 

[Agnaa]

For the attack speed I agree although there are always verses in which it will not be the case. I just do not think that the increase in energy would influence the combat speed. Otherwise a character in a verse with UES who evolves from 8-A with a Hypersonic speed to 5-C should have a Massively FTL+ speed.

We wouldn't actually scale it based on feats like that, but if there was a multiplier with sufficient support for that sort of jump I think we might.

I would like to change this. It fits into one of my goals. If you have a suggestion I could add it.

I might be able to come up with better wording later if you still want the help.

Which in itself is really not correct. The quantity does not influence the output. There are many cases in fiction where characters are stronger than others who have more energy.

I didn't know this topic had been raised before.

Yeah, the previous topic more focused around arguments like "Putting more energy into attacks might do non-AP things, like increase the range, the number of projectiles, or boost haxxy aspects of it" and "Fiction has many cases of characters that are proficient in certain subsets of energy systems, like schools of magic, so raw energy output shouldn't be treated as all-important".

With your additional points maybe it could be brought up again and not get rejected, idk.

Might more easily succeed if a compromise is reached, maybe if showings such as characters being stronger despite having less energy, or characters having different strengths in different techniques, acted as anti-feats for UES's.

 

[Planck69]

Might more easily succeed if a compromise is reached, maybe if showings such as characters being stronger despite having less energy, or characters having different strengths in different techniques, acted as anti-feats for UES's.

I don't mind this being a caveat or anti-feat for UES, attacks not linearly scaling with more raw power that is.

 

[Digital_Franz]

We wouldn't actually scale it based on feats like that, but if there was a multiplier with sufficient support for that sort of jump I think we might.

I agree on this point.

I might be able to come up with better wording later if you still want the help.

Thanks in advance.

Yeah, the previous topic more focused around arguments like "Putting more energy into attacks might do non-AP things, like increase the range, the number of projectiles, or boost haxxy aspects of it" and "Fiction has many cases of characters that are proficient in certain subsets of energy systems, like schools of magic, so raw energy output shouldn't be treated as all-important".

I see. Although it is correct it depends on the fictions and I think that currently it is the general case which is handled.

With your additional points maybe it could be brought up again and not get rejected, idk.

Might more easily succeed if a compromise is reached, maybe if showings such as characters being stronger despite having less energy, or characters having different strengths in different techniques, acted as anti-feats for UES's.

Possibly, yes.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think we do generally treat UES's as affecting speed. If a character with a UES has multiple spells they can cast, we generally take them to travel at the same speed, occasionally running contrary to what the piece of fiction implies. ofc this can't scale across stats, as joules, force, and speed are different quantities, but within those we treat them as generally scaling.

I do agree here. In systems with UES (like idk a Green Lantern Ring) we treat their combat speed as fast as their travel speed. Though in this case I would recommend just splitting them into different categories. Like

Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

to

Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would scale directly to these three statistics: Attack Potency, Stricking Strength and Durability. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells. Additionally speed would scale to the speed of other attacks if nothing implies otherwise, though it should be noted that without evidence speed does not scale linearly with power increases.

Its rough don't get me wrong, but something like this would "separate" speed with other stats while maintain that speed between moves would still count.

 

[Agnaa]

Wonder if we should also add a note about LS scaling (such as between telekinesis and physical lifting with a UES), or if that'd make it too bulky.

 

[Qawsedf234]

LS scaling (such as between telekinesis and physical lifting with a UES), or if that'd make it too bulky.

We could expand that section to a new paragraph

Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would scale directly to these three statistics: Attack Potency, Stricking Strength and Durability. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

Additionally, lifting strength and speed can be incorporated in a UES power set. For speed it would scale to the speed of other attacks or abilities if nothing implies otherwise and for lifting strength, the amount lifted through abilities (such as telekinesis) can be scaled to physical strength output. It should be noted that without evidence speed does not scale linearly with power increases and lifting strength requires evidence that there is a proportional ratio between their powers and ability to lift objects.

Or something like that.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Regarding the addition on speed I agree. There are verses where there are feats of light creation (displaying the same properties as light) which are faster attacks than the others despite the UES.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was actually having this on my mind about commenting; I agree that is isn't really a standard assumption and that it is not required to include speed as part of the system to qualify as "Universal." But at the same time, it could be included and is more of a neutral/supporting reason to judge something as universal. Dragon Ball being a common example of speed inclusion, albeit a verse specific. And it's common for AP and speed to be multiplied linearly via multipliers, despite physics suggesting that an AP multiplier by 100 (Excluding relativity specifics as that would required even greater magnitudes of AP multiplying just to buff speed minimally) would buff speed by no more than 10.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I was actually having this on my mind about commenting; I agree that is isn't really a standard assumption and that it is not required to include speed as part of the system to qualify as "Universal." But at the same time, it could be included and is more of a neutral/supporting reason to judge something as universal.

In itself, it can be used as supportive evidence to show that the character is passing energy through his body to strengthen himself but nothing more.

Dragon Ball being a common example of speed inclusion, albeit a verse specific. And it's common for AP and speed to be multiplied linearly via multipliers, despite physics suggesting that an AP multiplier by 100 (Excluding relativity specifics as that would required even greater magnitudes of AP multiplying just to buff speed minimally) would buff speed by no more than 10.

Yeah something like that. Dragon Ball has the advantage that it has direct statements although in the case of Dragon Ball, speed is not really included in the UES but just the Multipliers apply to it at the same time.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the staff conclusions here so far?

 

[Agnaa]

Brief summary of highlights:

• Agnaa: We generally let UES's operate in speed, even though I'd like this to be changed. And we'd treat a UES gaining 3x more energy equating to 3x more power, changing this would require dismantling UES's entirely imo.
• Agnaa: We don't infer multipliers from feats. Maybe we could reach a compromise, where characters being stronger despite having less energy, or characters having different strengths in different techniques, could act as anti-feats for UES's.
• Planck69: I don't mind that compromise. Maybe we could also have attacks not linearly scale with more raw energy.
• Qawsedf234: We could reword the UES page to mention that different quantities aren't cross-scaled.
• Agnaa: That sounds good.
• DarkDragonMedeus: I agree that different quantities don't have to be included for a UES, but them doing so supports them having a UES. Plus it's common for AP and speed to have linear multipliers, despite that not being realistic.

Now that I reflect on it, I don't think changing "3x more energy = 3x more power" actually requires dismantling UES's. If we know that N ki results in Y joules, then another attacking technique utilising N ki could presumably output Y joules with a UES. We could say that while also acknowledging that adding even more energy wouldn't necessarily lead to a linear increase. In fact, we already have this argument in our Multipliers page.

So I'd say that the main things to focus on are:

1. Should we continue allowing statements of a UES having X times more energy to provide an X times multiplier on the relevant stats?
2. Should we incorporate characters being stronger besides having less energy, or characters having different proficiencies in different techniques, as anti-feats?
3. Should we reword the UES page to mention that different quantities aren't cross-scaled without evidence?

 

[Digital_Franz]

Brief summary of highlights:

• Agnaa: We generally let UES's operate in speed, even though I'd like this to be changed. And we'd treat a UES gaining 3x more energy equating to 3x more power, changing this would require dismantling UES's entirely imo.
• Agnaa: We don't infer multipliers from feats. Maybe we could reach a compromise, where characters being stronger despite having less energy, or characters having different strengths in different techniques, could act as anti-feats for UES's.
• Planck69: I don't mind that compromise. Maybe we could also have attacks not linearly scale with more raw energy.
• Qawsedf234: We could reword the UES page to mention that different quantities aren't cross-scaled.
• Agnaa: That sounds good.
• DarkDragonMedeus: I agree that different quantities don't have to be included for a UES, but them doing so supports them having a UES. Plus it's common for AP and speed to have linear multipliers, despite that not being realistic.

Now that I reflect on it, I don't think changing "3x more energy = 3x more power" actually requires dismantling UES's. If we know that N ki results in Y joules, then another attacking technique utilising N ki could presumably output Y joules with a UES. We could say that while also acknowledging that adding even more energy wouldn't necessarily lead to a linear increase. In fact, we already have this argument in our Multipliers page.

So I'd say that the main things to focus on are:

1. Should we continue allowing statements of a UES having X times more energy to provide an X times multiplier on the relevant stats?
2. Should we incorporate characters being stronger besides having less energy, or characters having different proficiencies in different techniques, as anti-feats?
3. Should we reword the UES page to mention that different quantities aren't cross-scaled without evidence?

In the case of 2, being stronger besides having less energy would be an anti-feat if we continue allowing 1 but I think having different proficiencies in different techniques is an anti-feat if the these proficiencies can't be changed by the character.

For 3, the "evidence" really should not be like "the power was multiplied" and then "the character became fast" or "the speed increased". The very evidence of what is multiplied is really required. It is common that in fictions not necessarily with UES but even just with some energy source, when a character increases his output by some means and thus becomes more powerful, his speed also increases. So in the case of a UES, it is the same. Even if the power is multiplied but the speed is not mentioned in the many other statistics that are also said to be multiplied but is rather said to have "increased", it would just amount to an increase of some kind without the addition of the multipliers on it.