Misconceptions about UES and Multipliers

[Digital_Franz]

Permission granted by @Mr. Bambu.

As the title says, I would like to address a misconception about UES and Multipliers.

The primary problem is that literally some people don't even understand what a UES is.

The definition on the page is as follows:

Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

I don't know how to make them understand this simple definition. These people think that a UES affects Speed because of "all the other stats" (Read to the right at the bottom). The idea itself is ridiculous. An energy cannot scale to a Speed.

To improve their understanding I would like to propose this rewording:

Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would scale directly to these three statistics: Attack Potency, Stricking Strength and Durability. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

The change is not very significant. In itself it would allow me to move on to the next point: Multipliers and UES.

The misconception having first of all a relation between a UES and Speed, is that if Multipliers are applied to a UES, then these Multipliers apply directly to the Speed.

The example very often used is that of Dragon Ball without any knowledge of how Ki and Multipliers work in Dragon Ball.

This example raises a point: one must understand what is the difference between the energy output and the amount of energy possessed by a character.

The Ki Manipulation page says that manipulating and increasing the Ki in the body amplifies statistics. It is obvious here that the Ki contained in the body is the energy output which is different from the total amount of energy and that by increasing this energy output (increasing the Ki in the body), a character is able to increase his stats.
These scans explain again well that it is about manipulating the Ki contained in the body.

So I would like to first say that statements like "the energy has been increased by 10" in the sense of the amount of energy possessed do not mean anything because the amount has just been increased but not the output and therefore not the power.
This can be compared to a car, in the sense that increasing the tank capacity and the quantity of gasoline does not influence the capacities of the car.

Furthermore, what they ignore is that Dragon Ball has Multipliers applying to Speed also because it has been directly stated and on many occasions. Therefore Multipliers applying to a UES that are not stated to also affect Speeds will not apply to Speed.

Overall, a note would probably be needed saying that Multipliers applying in a verse with a UES are no different from those in other verses without UES because for them to be applied, there should be a specification on the statistic(s) affected.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @DarkGrath @Dereck03 @Planck69

What do you think about this?

 

[SamanPatou]

Seems ok, I thought the definition was already as simple as that, but if this minor addition can help clearing things out, then it is a welcomed one.
The ki manipulation thing should be handled elsewhere though, because while on a UES it can be assumed that characters with similar levels of energy share the same speed, the amplification and reduction should not be compared to energy, but rather multipliers, if anything and encompassing all stats.
DB has also its internal contradictions and caveats about speed, so that requires more scrutiny.

 

[Agnaa]

I think we do generally treat UES's as affecting speed. If a character with a UES has multiple spells they can cast, we generally take them to travel at the same speed, occasionally running contrary to what the piece of fiction implies. ofc this can't scale across stats, as joules, force, and speed are different quantities, but within those we treat them as generally scaling.

I'd welcome a change in that area, but I think that'd broaden the scope of this thread.

And, due to the way that we treat UES's as working, we'd treat 3x more energy in the UES as equating to 3x more power. As a fundamental part of the UES definition is that characters can supply arbitrary amounts of that energy system into any of their abilities.

Changing this would require dismantling UES's entirely, and that has been suggested before, albeit from a slightly different angle, but the core of "the same energy source may not empower different attacks in the same way" is shared in both arguments.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Seems ok, I thought the definition was already as simple as that, but if this minor addition can help clearing things out, then it is a welcomed one.

Thanks.

The ki manipulation thing should be handled elsewhere though,

Honestly I wouldn't even like to deal with this case. I would risk getting jumped by the supporters. By mentioning this I just wanted to point out how many take example from it and even from Chakra but Chakra got nuked by KingTempest.

because while on a UES it can be assumed that characters with similar levels of energy share the same speed, the amplification and reduction should not be compared to energy, but rather multipliers, if anything and encompassing all stats.

I totally agree with this.

DB has also its internal contradictions and caveats about speed, so that requires more scrutiny.

If anyone thinks of doing it one day.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I think we do generally treat UES's as affecting speed. If a character with a UES has multiple spells they can cast, we generally take them to travel at the same speed, occasionally running contrary to what the piece of fiction implies.

For the attack speed I agree although there are always verses in which it will not be the case. I just do not think that the increase in energy would influence the combat speed. Otherwise a character in a verse with UES who evolves from 8-A with a Hypersonic speed to 5-C should have a Massively FTL+ speed.

ofc this can't scale across stats, as joules, force, and speed are different quantities, but within those we treat them as generally scaling.

Weird.

I'd welcome a change in that area, but I think that'd broaden the scope of this thread.

I would like to change this. It fits into one of my goals. If you have a suggestion I could add it.

And, due to the way that we treat UES's as working, we'd treat 3x more energy in the UES as equating to 3x more power. As a fundamental part of the UES definition is that characters can supply arbitrary amounts of that energy system into any of their abilities.

Which in itself is really not correct. The quantity does not influence the output. There are many cases in fiction where characters are stronger than others who have more energy.

Changing this would require dismantling UES's entirely, and that has been suggested before, albeit from a slightly different angle, but the core of "the same energy source may not empower different attacks in the same way" is shared in both arguments.

I didn't know this topic had been raised before.

 

[Agnaa]

For the attack speed I agree although there are always verses in which it will not be the case. I just do not think that the increase in energy would influence the combat speed. Otherwise a character in a verse with UES who evolves from 8-A with a Hypersonic speed to 5-C should have a Massively FTL+ speed.

We wouldn't actually scale it based on feats like that, but if there was a multiplier with sufficient support for that sort of jump I think we might.

I would like to change this. It fits into one of my goals. If you have a suggestion I could add it.

I might be able to come up with better wording later if you still want the help.

Which in itself is really not correct. The quantity does not influence the output. There are many cases in fiction where characters are stronger than others who have more energy.

I didn't know this topic had been raised before.

Yeah, the previous topic more focused around arguments like "Putting more energy into attacks might do non-AP things, like increase the range, the number of projectiles, or boost haxxy aspects of it" and "Fiction has many cases of characters that are proficient in certain subsets of energy systems, like schools of magic, so raw energy output shouldn't be treated as all-important".

With your additional points maybe it could be brought up again and not get rejected, idk.

Might more easily succeed if a compromise is reached, maybe if showings such as characters being stronger despite having less energy, or characters having different strengths in different techniques, acted as anti-feats for UES's.

 

[Planck69]

Might more easily succeed if a compromise is reached, maybe if showings such as characters being stronger despite having less energy, or characters having different strengths in different techniques, acted as anti-feats for UES's.

I don't mind this being a caveat or anti-feat for UES, attacks not linearly scaling with more raw power that is.

 

[Digital_Franz]

We wouldn't actually scale it based on feats like that, but if there was a multiplier with sufficient support for that sort of jump I think we might.

I agree on this point.

I might be able to come up with better wording later if you still want the help.

Thanks in advance.

Yeah, the previous topic more focused around arguments like "Putting more energy into attacks might do non-AP things, like increase the range, the number of projectiles, or boost haxxy aspects of it" and "Fiction has many cases of characters that are proficient in certain subsets of energy systems, like schools of magic, so raw energy output shouldn't be treated as all-important".

I see. Although it is correct it depends on the fictions and I think that currently it is the general case which is handled.

With your additional points maybe it could be brought up again and not get rejected, idk.

Might more easily succeed if a compromise is reached, maybe if showings such as characters being stronger despite having less energy, or characters having different strengths in different techniques, acted as anti-feats for UES's.

Possibly, yes.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think we do generally treat UES's as affecting speed. If a character with a UES has multiple spells they can cast, we generally take them to travel at the same speed, occasionally running contrary to what the piece of fiction implies. ofc this can't scale across stats, as joules, force, and speed are different quantities, but within those we treat them as generally scaling.

I do agree here. In systems with UES (like idk a Green Lantern Ring) we treat their combat speed as fast as their travel speed. Though in this case I would recommend just splitting them into different categories. Like

Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

to

Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would scale directly to these three statistics: Attack Potency, Stricking Strength and Durability. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells. Additionally speed would scale to the speed of other attacks if nothing implies otherwise, though it should be noted that without evidence speed does not scale linearly with power increases.

Its rough don't get me wrong, but something like this would "separate" speed with other stats while maintain that speed between moves would still count.

 

[Agnaa]

Wonder if we should also add a note about LS scaling (such as between telekinesis and physical lifting with a UES), or if that'd make it too bulky.

 

[Qawsedf234]

LS scaling (such as between telekinesis and physical lifting with a UES), or if that'd make it too bulky.

We could expand that section to a new paragraph

Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would scale directly to these three statistics: Attack Potency, Stricking Strength and Durability. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

Additionally, lifting strength and speed can be incorporated in a UES power set. For speed it would scale to the speed of other attacks or abilities if nothing implies otherwise and for lifting strength, the amount lifted through abilities (such as telekinesis) can be scaled to physical strength output. It should be noted that without evidence speed does not scale linearly with power increases and lifting strength requires evidence that there is a proportional ratio between their powers and ability to lift objects.

Or something like that.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Regarding the addition on speed I agree. There are verses where there are feats of light creation (displaying the same properties as light) which are faster attacks than the others despite the UES.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was actually having this on my mind about commenting; I agree that is isn't really a standard assumption and that it is not required to include speed as part of the system to qualify as "Universal." But at the same time, it could be included and is more of a neutral/supporting reason to judge something as universal. Dragon Ball being a common example of speed inclusion, albeit a verse specific. And it's common for AP and speed to be multiplied linearly via multipliers, despite physics suggesting that an AP multiplier by 100 (Excluding relativity specifics as that would required even greater magnitudes of AP multiplying just to buff speed minimally) would buff speed by no more than 10.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I was actually having this on my mind about commenting; I agree that is isn't really a standard assumption and that it is not required to include speed as part of the system to qualify as "Universal." But at the same time, it could be included and is more of a neutral/supporting reason to judge something as universal.

In itself, it can be used as supportive evidence to show that the character is passing energy through his body to strengthen himself but nothing more.

Dragon Ball being a common example of speed inclusion, albeit a verse specific. And it's common for AP and speed to be multiplied linearly via multipliers, despite physics suggesting that an AP multiplier by 100 (Excluding relativity specifics as that would required even greater magnitudes of AP multiplying just to buff speed minimally) would buff speed by no more than 10.

Yeah something like that. Dragon Ball has the advantage that it has direct statements although in the case of Dragon Ball, speed is not really included in the UES but just the Multipliers apply to it at the same time.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the staff conclusions here so far?

 

[Agnaa]

Brief summary of highlights:

• Agnaa: We generally let UES's operate in speed, even though I'd like this to be changed. And we'd treat a UES gaining 3x more energy equating to 3x more power, changing this would require dismantling UES's entirely imo.
• Agnaa: We don't infer multipliers from feats. Maybe we could reach a compromise, where characters being stronger despite having less energy, or characters having different strengths in different techniques, could act as anti-feats for UES's.
• Planck69: I don't mind that compromise. Maybe we could also have attacks not linearly scale with more raw energy.
• Qawsedf234: We could reword the UES page to mention that different quantities aren't cross-scaled.
• Agnaa: That sounds good.
• DarkDragonMedeus: I agree that different quantities don't have to be included for a UES, but them doing so supports them having a UES. Plus it's common for AP and speed to have linear multipliers, despite that not being realistic.

Now that I reflect on it, I don't think changing "3x more energy = 3x more power" actually requires dismantling UES's. If we know that N ki results in Y joules, then another attacking technique utilising N ki could presumably output Y joules with a UES. We could say that while also acknowledging that adding even more energy wouldn't necessarily lead to a linear increase. In fact, we already have this argument in our Multipliers page.

So I'd say that the main things to focus on are:

1. Should we continue allowing statements of a UES having X times more energy to provide an X times multiplier on the relevant stats?
2. Should we incorporate characters being stronger despite having less energy, or characters having different proficiencies in different techniques, as anti-feats?
3. Should we reword the UES page to mention that different quantities aren't cross-scaled without evidence?

 

[Digital_Franz]

Brief summary of highlights:

• Agnaa: We generally let UES's operate in speed, even though I'd like this to be changed. And we'd treat a UES gaining 3x more energy equating to 3x more power, changing this would require dismantling UES's entirely imo.
• Agnaa: We don't infer multipliers from feats. Maybe we could reach a compromise, where characters being stronger despite having less energy, or characters having different strengths in different techniques, could act as anti-feats for UES's.
• Planck69: I don't mind that compromise. Maybe we could also have attacks not linearly scale with more raw energy.
• Qawsedf234: We could reword the UES page to mention that different quantities aren't cross-scaled.
• Agnaa: That sounds good.
• DarkDragonMedeus: I agree that different quantities don't have to be included for a UES, but them doing so supports them having a UES. Plus it's common for AP and speed to have linear multipliers, despite that not being realistic.

Now that I reflect on it, I don't think changing "3x more energy = 3x more power" actually requires dismantling UES's. If we know that N ki results in Y joules, then another attacking technique utilising N ki could presumably output Y joules with a UES. We could say that while also acknowledging that adding even more energy wouldn't necessarily lead to a linear increase. In fact, we already have this argument in our Multipliers page.

So I'd say that the main things to focus on are:

1. Should we continue allowing statements of a UES having X times more energy to provide an X times multiplier on the relevant stats?
2. Should we incorporate characters being stronger besides having less energy, or characters having different proficiencies in different techniques, as anti-feats?
3. Should we reword the UES page to mention that different quantities aren't cross-scaled without evidence?

In the case of 2, being stronger besides having less energy would be an anti-feat if we continue allowing 1 but I think having different proficiencies in different techniques is an anti-feat if the these proficiencies can't be changed by the character.

For 3, the "evidence" really should not be like "the power was multiplied" and then "the character became fast" or "the speed increased". The very evidence of what is multiplied is really required. It is common that in fictions not necessarily with UES but even just with some energy source, when a character increases his output by some means and thus becomes more powerful, his speed also increases. So in the case of a UES, it is the same. Even if the power is multiplied but the speed is not mentioned in the many other statistics that are also said to be multiplied but is rather said to have "increased", it would just amount to an increase of some kind without the addition of the multipliers on it.

 

[Antvasima]

Brief summary of highlights:

• Agnaa: We generally let UES's operate in speed, even though I'd like this to be changed. And we'd treat a UES gaining 3x more energy equating to 3x more power, changing this would require dismantling UES's entirely imo.
• Agnaa: We don't infer multipliers from feats. Maybe we could reach a compromise, where characters being stronger despite having less energy, or characters having different strengths in different techniques, could act as anti-feats for UES's.
• Planck69: I don't mind that compromise. Maybe we could also have attacks not linearly scale with more raw energy.
• Qawsedf234: We could reword the UES page to mention that different quantities aren't cross-scaled.
• Agnaa: That sounds good.
• DarkDragonMedeus: I agree that different quantities don't have to be included for a UES, but them doing so supports them having a UES. Plus it's common for AP and speed to have linear multipliers, despite that not being realistic.

Now that I reflect on it, I don't think changing "3x more energy = 3x more power" actually requires dismantling UES's. If we know that N ki results in Y joules, then another attacking technique utilising N ki could presumably output Y joules with a UES. We could say that while also acknowledging that adding even more energy wouldn't necessarily lead to a linear increase. In fact, we already have this argument in our Multipliers page.

So I'd say that the main things to focus on are:

1. Should we continue allowing statements of a UES having X times more energy to provide an X times multiplier on the relevant stats?
2. Should we incorporate characters being stronger besides having less energy, or characters having different proficiencies in different techniques, as anti-feats?
3. Should we reword the UES page to mention that different quantities aren't cross-scaled without evidence?

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Just_a_Random_Butler @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @GrathOfLux @Dereck03 @Planck69

This seems sufficiently important to require your attention.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Should we continue allowing statements of a UES having X times more energy to provide an X times multiplier on the relevant stats?

I dislike multipliers being taken as literal without being shown. Feats are always preferable. A character having 10x the mana or whatever of another character does not strictly mean it's a 10x increase in power, the system may not work like that, and we should not restrict it as if it does. My vote would be no to multipliers being treated like this.

Should we incorporate characters being stronger besides having less energy, or characters having different proficiencies in different techniques, as anti-feats?

Context being our favorite word, at best I'd say "potentially". There are foreseeable situations in which a character, even divorced from a UES, is simply very powerful, powerful enough to rival someone who, in that UES, is stronger than them.

Take Chi for example. Chi being life force, let us hypothetically say a verse has all creatures having Chi, indicating a greater strength. Thus, we have a UES. But there is an undead creature with relatively low Chi, who nevertheless consistently manages to defeat beings of high Chi- could be due to a lot of things, ranging from additive materials used in the creation of this hypothetical undead creature, a separate system of magic working alongside the UES, or perhaps the creature's ability hails from whatever force created it. Whatever the case, it demonstrates that such instances will not be a necessary anti-feat 100% of the time. We should evaluate them on a case by case basis.

Should we reword the UES page to mention that different quantities aren't cross-scaled without evidence?

This seems entirely fair, yeah. A UES should only operate in ways it is shown to operate. The speed discussion from earlier- a UES shouldn't cross-scale the speed of its users without evidence that it works as such.

 

[Antvasima]

Bambu makes sense to me here. Thank you for helping out.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As I said earlier, it should be case by case. Though I don't really see point 2 of Agnaa's three bullet points as being an anti-feat against the concept of a UES. But more so it's a feat for character B "Stronger but uses up less energy" for having better energy control/efficiency and an anti-feat for character A's energy control/efficiency. Some other notes is that even if there are qualified systems that reach UES as opposed to Limited or Non-Physical, the individual user(s) are a different story. It can be common for various users to have great efficiency for very specific Ki attacks, but have less efficiency when it comes melee attacks or durability enhancements. And there are cases where using transformations/techniques that buff 10x over actually drain energy more than 10x faster due to the user not used to being in said form.

The one I commented on had to do with speed; it's not really a requirement for speed to be among the listed amplified stats to qualify as universal. In some verses, raising Ki/Chakra or something similar is mainly an amplification for things like power and range, and not so much speed. As evident that characters from ATLA, various nonbenders are just as agile as various benders. But Verses like Dragon Ball treat Kaioken as a multiplier for power and speed, and it's self evident characters with higher PL's are both massively stronger and faster than various characters with lower PL's. And other statements even say PL is based on a rough measurement of Power, Speed, and Endurance. But I would simply include that as among verse specific examples. It's not really a requirement for speed to be effected by a verse established UES to qualify as a UES.

 

[Agnaa]

As I said earlier, it should be case by case. Though I don't really see point 2 of Agnaa's three bullet points as being an anti-feat against the concept of a UES. But more so it's a feat for character B "Stronger but uses up less energy" for having better energy control/efficiency and an anti-feat for character A's energy control/efficiency. Some other notes is that even if there are qualified systems that reach UES as opposed to Limited or Non-Physical, the individual user(s) are a different story. It can be common for various users to have great efficiency for very specific Ki attacks, but have less efficiency when it comes melee attacks or durability enhancements. And there are cases where using transformations/techniques that buff 10x over actually drain energy more than 10x faster due to the user not used to being in said form.

It's important, because the idea of a UES is to make it so that different attacks scale to a feat done by one of the character's attacks, using the logic that they use more energy of the system, and thus have to be stronger.

But if different attacks can be stronger solely due to efficiency, then using this energy-based scaling becomes nonsensical.

If a character is really good with the Destructo Disk specifically, then despite their Kamehameha requiring more energy, it may be weaker.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's important, because the idea of a UES is to make it so that different attacks scale to a feat done by one of the character's attacks, using the logic that they use more energy of the system, and thus have to be stronger.

But if different attacks can be stronger solely due to efficiency, then using this energy-based scaling becomes nonsensical.

If a character is really good with the Destructo Disk specifically, then despite their Kamehameha requiring more energy, it may be weaker.

I know that, and I agree there are notes to be important. And I agree that Limited Vs Non-Physical Vs Universal are indeed important highlights. But what I am mainly addressing is that physical stats sharing an energy system with various supernatural powers is the main thing that makes something universal. For example, hypothetically speaking. I'll use D&D's the Weave. If it was hypothetically Non-Physical as opposed to Universal, it would mean it cannot be used to amplify one's physical strength regardless of how potent the magic is or even if they have perfect mastery of the Weave. Thus various Wizards would have up to High 6-A with magic but would be glass cannons or unable to fight physically. Of course, various wizards trade blows with their strongest spells, proving durability; but those are just common scaling notes as opposed to the energy system itself being Universal. And we have evidence various Wizards are more than capable of using the Weave to buff their physical strength until they can out wrestle Titans. So it does meat criteria for Universal there.

But I agree with some important notes, because it's also common for the absolute strongest attacks to not always fully scale to physical strength and durability despite those being amplified by the exact same energy systems. And it shouldn't be an assumption that absolutely everything scales 1 to 1 or that it needs to; otherwise hardly anyone below High 3-A would truly have a UES qualification. But a requirement for UES to qualify as a UES has more to do with the idea that "All powers are parts of the same energy system" as opposed to one's energy efficiency being perfect at everything they do. With various users just being a different can of worms.

 

[Agnaa]

I know that, and I agree there are notes to be important. And I agree that Limited Vs Non-Physical Vs Universal are indeed important highlights. But what I am mainly addressing is that physical stats sharing an energy system with various supernatural powers is the main thing that makes something universal. For example, hypothetically speaking. I'll use D&D's the Weave. If it was hypothetically Non-Physical as opposed to Universal, it would mean it cannot be used to amplify one's physical strength regardless of how potent the magic is or even if they have perfect mastery of the Weave. Thus various Wizards would have up to High 6-A with magic but would be glass cannons or unable to fight physically. Of course, various wizards trade blows with their strongest spells, proving durability; but those are just common scaling notes as opposed to the energy system itself being Universal. And we have evidence various Wizards are more than capable of using the Weave to buff their physical strength until they can out wrestle Titans. So it does meat criteria for Universal there.

But I agree with some important notes, because it's also common for the absolute strongest attacks to not always fully scale to physical strength and durability despite those being amplified by the exact same energy systems. And it shouldn't be an assumption that absolutely everything scales 1 to 1 or that it needs to; otherwise hardly anyone below High 3-A would truly have a UES qualification. But a requirement for UES to qualify as a UES has more to do with the idea that "All powers are parts of the same energy system" as opposed to one's energy efficiency being perfect at everything they do. With various users just being a different can of worms.

I disagree on a few points there:

• An energy system isn't about whether a single superpower can both amplify one's physical strength and be used for non-physical attacks. A character simply having a superpower system that both empowers their physical blows and lets them create explosions is not enough evidence for us to say that they can empower their physical blows to the level of those explosions. We require a statement that they share a power source and use a similar amount of that source, or that they can invest arbitrary amounts of power into either technique if they wish. Or even just a statement that one of them uses more of the shared energy source than the other.
• We say that strongest attacks don't scale since they use significantly more of the energy system than their other attacks, or for their casually enhanced level of strength. It's already not an assumption that everything scales 1-to-1 or needs to, just that attacks which use more energy are stronger than attacks which use less.
• This is why energy efficiency is important. If strength of attacks is based on factors other than which attack uses more of the energy system, then it's no longer even a limited energy system. Although some scaling between different attacks could still be done, if care is taken.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I disagree on a few points there:

• An energy system isn't about whether a single superpower can both amplify one's physical strength and be used for non-physical attacks. A character simply having a superpower system that both empowers their physical blows and lets them create explosions is not enough evidence for us to say that they can empower their physical blows to the level of those explosions. We require a statement that they share a power source and use a similar amount of that source, or that they can invest arbitrary amounts of power into either technique if they wish. Or even just a statement that one of them uses more of the shared energy source than the other.
• We say that strongest attacks don't scale since they use significantly more of the energy system than their other attacks, or for their casually enhanced level of strength. It's already not an assumption that everything scales 1-to-1 or needs to, just that attacks which use more energy are stronger than attacks which use less.
• This is why energy efficiency is important. If strength of attacks is based on factors other than which attack uses more of the energy system, then it's no longer even a limited energy system. Although some scaling between different attacks could still be done, if care is taken.

It sounds like there are some confusions then. You said you disagree with my points, but those three points you listed are more or less what were actually supporting what I was trying to say in the first place.

But other things I will mention is that there are cases where even somewhat downscaling proves the existence of a UES qualification. Which is what the 3rd point was listing and taking note of. I also did say/agree, energy efficiency is important. In fact, to clarify how energy efficiency works is that there is a feat that's effectively 30 megatons. But it uses like 300 megatons worth of energy to perform the feat due to the character having around 10% energy efficiency. That's among the few things I was trying to note. So I don't really know what came to disagreements unless there could be some bad wording on my end. So my apologies for the confusion.

 

[Agnaa]

It sounds like there are some confusions then. You said you disagree with my points, but those three points you listed are more or less what were actually supporting what I was trying to say in the first place.

But other things I will mention is that there are cases where even somewhat downscaling proves the existence of a UES qualification. Which is what the 3rd point was listing and taking note of. I also did say/agree, energy efficiency is important. In fact, to clarify how energy efficiency works is that there is a feat that's effectively 30 megatons. But it uses like 300 megatons worth of energy to perform the feat due to the character having around 10% energy efficiency. That's among the few things I was trying to note. So I don't really know what came to disagreements unless there could be some bad wording on my end. So my apologies for the confusion.

I don't think we'd get something as explicit as the 30/300 megatons thing from an actual series.

The 10% energy efficiency thing is more plausible, but then runs into the first of the three main points I highlighted earlier.

 

[Digital_Franz]

It sounds like there are some confusions then. You said you disagree with my points, but those three points you listed are more or less what were actually supporting what I was trying to say in the first place.

But other things I will mention is that there are cases where even somewhat downscaling proves the existence of a UES qualification. Which is what the 3rd point was listing and taking note of. I also did say/agree, energy efficiency is important. In fact, to clarify how energy efficiency works is that there is a feat that's effectively 30 megatons. But it uses like 300 megatons worth of energy to perform the feat due to the character having around 10% energy efficiency. That's among the few things I was trying to note. So I don't really know what came to disagreements unless there could be some bad wording on my end. So my apologies for the confusion.

The thing is, there was a misunderstanding with Agnaa. As I said in my last post above, point 2 is an anti-feat if point 1 is maintained. The wiki's current idea of the UES is that having x times more energy equals being x times more powerful. This is valid in extremely specific cases (feats involved). It does not involve the efficiency that you have been mentioning since. So to talk about efficiency as we have been doing since, we have to get rid of point 1. With 1 out of the way, what you say is correct. I think that's pretty much what Agnaa is trying to bring up.

 

[Digital_Franz]

We could expand that section to a new paragraph

Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would scale directly to these three statistics: Attack Potency, Stricking Strength and Durability. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

Additionally, lifting strength and speed can be incorporated in a UES power set. For speed it would scale to the speed of other attacks or abilities if nothing implies otherwise and for lifting strength, the amount lifted through abilities (such as telekinesis) can be scaled to physical strength output. It should be noted that without evidence speed does not scale linearly with power increases and lifting strength requires evidence that there is a proportional ratio between their powers and ability to lift objects.

Or something like that.

For this, I was thinking about the speed issue. I wanted to make a remark. By default, combat speed can scale to the speed of an attack if it is not purely elemental (purely light or purely lightning). The fact is that, with energy beams for example, we can assume that the character can amplify himself to reach the speed his attack since the attack is generated and "propelled at that speed" with his energy. However, a pure light attack moves at Speed of Light due to its nature, the character's energy having just created the photons composing the attack, nothing indicating that he can strengthen himself until reaching this speed.