Minor Desperado addition

[Firephoenixearl]

So we've all been here, Desperados have type 4 acausality for transcending causality. This gives them resistance to causality, fate and probability. However it shouldn't stop there. Here Kurono says:

They can influence the causal relationship of this world, making them practically invulnerable to abilities based on causation.

However even Time Manipulation is part of the "causation system" in rakudai.

So this would mean that Desperados would be normally resistant to time based abilities as well. In other words, my proposed addition is:

Resistance to Time Manipulation

That's all i had.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Wrong Board you bepis

 

[00potato]

Seems fine enough? I mean was it ever shown?
Also wrong board.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Agh, shit.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Seems fine enough? I mean was it ever shown?

The only time manipulator in rakudai is Kurono but she reached "the gate of desperado" and eventually even became a desperado. So she would be capable of affecting them.

 

[00potato]

Hmm, that kinda contradicts it then.
It was never shown and the only time-bender can effect them.
Leaning towards no here.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean, does it need to? The time bender is strictly stated to be within the group of abilities that they are invulnerable to. And we know that affecting desperados with causality or fate isn't exactly impossible as they do it to each-other all the time. So one of the strongest ability users in the series being able to do the same isn't any more of an anti-feat than desperados getting fate haxed is.

 

[00potato]

That doesn’t seem to help your point at all? In fact if they effect each other all the time then it contradicts them having an immunity/major resistance.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It really doesn't.

It's similar to saying if a dude affects a non-corporeal then the Non-Corporality gets contradicted. Which isn't what's really happening. We call it "NPI". Similarly here, we don't say "type 4 is not legit", we say "X character can affect type 4's with his hax".

 

[00potato]

But in this case the resistance isn’t shown at all, and not even directly stated. It’s an extrapolation without any showings.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

But in this case the resistance isn’t shown at all, and not even directly stated.

It is directly stated though.

 

[00potato]

No it isn’t, at least not for Time resist.
And the others are again contradicted by the fact that they effect each other.

Also it says that since they influence causality, they are immune. Not that they are just immune. So it may not even be a direct resistance, rather then counteracting the ability with their own.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No it isn’t, at least not for Time resist.

<They are invulnerable to abilities based on causality
<Which includes time
How is this not directly stated?

And the others are again contradicted by the fact that they effect each other.

Not really though, as i said it's just "X hax can interact with type 4", which is pretty common.

Also it says that since they influence causality, they are immune. Not that they are just immune. So it may not even be a direct resistance, rather then counteracting the ability with their own.

That is a bit iffy since they were pretty much directly immune to having their future read, and they're stated to having "broken the chains of fate". So it's definitely more than just counteracting with an ability of their own.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

This is the russian quote, in case it's necessary:

обладает вещью под названием гравитационное притяжение. Эта сила напрямую позволяет им воздействовать на причинно-следственную связь этого мира, делая их практически неуязвимыми перед способностями, основанных на причинном воздействии.

 

[00potato]

Those are two different statements that don’t directly line up. A direct statement would be “X isn’t working on them.” Not this.

Also the resistance to precog is irrelevant honestly. And “broken the chains of fate.” Is both vauge and flowery so it doesn’t support any interpretation especially well.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Those are two different statements that don’t directly line up. A direct statement would be “X isn’t working on them.” Not this.

How do they not line up though? Any argument besides the "they weren't stated in the same line so they don't count"? What's your argument for dismissing these?

Also the resistance to precog is irrelevant honestly.

How?

And “broken the chains of fate.” Is both vauge and flowery so it doesn’t support any interpretation especially well.

Not really. It's not either of those when these guys actually defy fate, have acausality type 4 and bunch of other feats and statements behind them like:

Like those who have severed the chains of fate by their own strong will. There are exceptions that broke the limits of their souls as persons and got out of their destiny. We call those existences《Desperados》.

Outright stated that they exist outside of destiny.

 

[00potato]

The point is that is wasn’t shown, and that you straight up stated Kurono (the only time bender) would effect them. the lack of a direct statement is more of a supporting point, but it still is valid.


That doesn’t say that they exist outside of destiny, or lack one. Just that the one they had is gone. Not really a good scan.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The point is that is wasn’t shown, and that you straight up stated Kurono (the only time bender) would effect them.

Which as i said doesn't contradict anything cus we have "can affect type 4" as a thing. And so does rakudai.

That doesn’t say that they exist outside of destiny, or lack one. Just that the one they had is gone. Not really a good scan.

"Got out of their destiny" is not they transcended fate? Here's another one though:

– At that time, you leveled up the rank of your soul and became an existence different from the regular Blazers. You, who have reached this awakening, have been removed from the circle of fate surrounding this planet, and now you have become able to raise the upper limit of your magic power depending on the training. My first task is to tell you a fact, that you have become an existence that set foot into the current《Domain of the Desperados》.

And there are also statements of outright transcending causality:

（あの一歩を機に《無冠の剣王》は、この星を巡る因果の外側の存在となった）

(With that one step the ‘Crownless Sword King’ became an existence outside of this world’s karma.)
Karma obviously being synonymous with "cause-effect laws". And can even be translated like that depending on the translator, but there are obviously many more statements than this.

Honestly questioning desperado acausality is a losing battle. I have quite literally 8 volumes worth of proof for that.

 

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, questioning Desperados being acausals is like questioning SSJ being stronger than their base forms, it's literally the whole point of the thing.

I agree with this btw.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

And this is still in the wrong board

 

[Antvasima]

I have moved this thread.

Also, this seems to make sense to apply.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Thanks for changing the board ant.

And thanks to both of you (ant and ion) for the input, imma wait for a bit more input though. Could you pm @Schnee_One and @Ricsi-viragosi? They seem active in rakudai crts.

 

[Rocker1189]

Gonna be honest I don't know how that quote shows time as part of the causal system it simply says that said person has causal control over time which seems specific to their ability. Also even if that was the case that would be specific to rakudai or any verse that has time as part of the causal system. If a verse does not it doesn't make sense for them to suddenly do so against rakudai.

 

[Antvasima]

@Schnee_One @Ricsi-viragosi

Are you willing to help out here please?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Also even if that was the case that would be specific to rakudai or any verse that has time as part of the causal system. If a verse does not it doesn't make sense for them to suddenly do so against rakudai.

Not really. It just means that these guys transcend a system that includes time in it. Otherwise if they fight a verse where probability is not part of causality that means they stop transcending probability as well?

Verse equalization would easily take care of that.

 

[Rocker1189]

Not really. It just means that these guys transcend a system that includes time in it. Otherwise if they fight a verse where probability is not part of causality that means they stop transcending probability as well?

Verse equalization would easily take care of that.

If a verse truly has probability transcending causality then yeah they would stop transcending said verses probability. Since it is explicitly outside of the system they resist. I don't see why time which is typically not in the causality system would count towards that.

 

[Schnee_One]

Watching for now

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion. Alternately, a staff member can use the @Username notification system.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

If a verse truly has probability transcending causality then yeah they would stop transcending said verses probability. Since it is explicitly outside of the system they resist. I don't see why time which is typically not in the causality system would count towards that.

The thing is, the system they transcends includes time. Think of it as:

They transcend causality, fate, probability and time. And uses these under the same umbrella with the name "causality".

If a verse uses causality for "causality, fate and probability". That doesn't mean that the Rakudai ppl stop transcending time, the other verse just doesn't use the same term.

So even if we think of them separately it doesn't matter. Cus Rakudai transcends a system that is practically bigger than the other verse's. The causality in rakudai includes more things so they are transcending all of those.

A good example here would be the usual "transcends logic". If in a verse a dude transcends logic and is practically god due to that, but in another verse logic is just "guns can't kill you". You don't just say "well tough luck, cus logic in this other verse is much weaker". Similar situation here.

 

[Rocker1189]

The thing is, the system they transcends includes time. Think of it as:

They transcend causality which in their verse includes time.

If a verse uses causality for "causality, fate and probability". That doesn't mean that the Rakudai ppl stop transcending time, the other verse just doesn't use the same term.

If a verse uses causality for those 3 and time in said verse is not included that means that time > causality, fate and probability in the verse meaning that rakudai would not be able to resist it without feats at least.

Cus Rakudai transcends a system that is practically bigger than the other verse's.

No, their system is different not bigger. Time in their system is included under causality while time in others is not.

A good example here would be the usual "transcends logic". If in a verse a dude transcends logic and is practically god due to that, but in another verse logic is just "guns can't kill you". You don't just say "well tough luck, cus logic in this other verse is much weaker". Similar situation here.

Gonna be honest this example kind of confuses me so further elaboration would be great. In both verses feats would be a deciding factor either way since "transcends logic" on its own doesnt even mean anything as far as I know its not even a power in vsbw and usually has other things that gives us powers and abilities to add.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

If a verse uses causality for those 3 and time in said verse is not included that means that time > causality, fate and probability in the verse meaning that rakudai would not be able to resist it without feats at least.

Not really. Not being part of the causality system doesn't make it superior it just makes it unrelated. So bad point there.

No, their system is different not bigger. Time in their system is included under causality while time in others is not.

Yes, which means their causality system includes more stuff than other verse's causality system. We don't just default to the lower cus that is plainly downplaying the character.

Gonna be honest this example kind of confuses me so further elaboration would be great. In both verses feats would be a deciding factor either way since "transcends logic" on its own doesnt even mean anything as far as I know its not even a power in vsbw and usually has other things that gives us powers and abilities to add.

Exactly why i gave context. If in a verse transcending logic makes you (random example) 2-A by default as logic includes, time, space, and gives you acausality type 5 etc. Whereas in 1 verse logic just means you cannot be defeated by rocks or sticks.

By your logic we would say "guns in the 2nd verse are beyond logic therefore they can harm the dude from the 1st verse". However that is not the logical argument here, the reasonable (and what we use) statement in this case would be "Logic in the 1st verse includes far more stuff than the 2nd verse, so do you have any proof that something as simple as guns would affect him". Just because both are "beyond logic" doesn't mean you stop considering what is meant by it and how much the verse gives him due to it.

Similar situation for causality. Just because causality includes less stuff in other verses doesn't mean you just remove it from rakudai as well.

 

[Rocker1189]

Not being part of the causality system doesn't make it superior it just makes it unrelated.

If it is unrelated then how does resisting causality then make you resist time.

We don't just default to the lower cus that is plainly downplaying the character.

It's not exactly downplaying especially if they have not shown the feats for it. You are basing all this from. "The causal control over time." It's not like we have actually seen the feat mind you. If they did I would be perfectly fine with this.

.

Well your first explanation wasn't very good tbh so I did not understand it. As for guns a pretty large difference is made. I mean the first verse already surpasses guns by virtue of being a 2-A so... That being said I get your point now.

It think for me the problem is the use of causality/causation in Rakudai.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

If it is unrelated then how does resisting causality then make you resist time.

Because in their verse, no. In rakudai yes. Again back to the "beyond logic argument". Their causality includes more stuff, we don't just remove them cus "other verses don't do it".

It's not exactly downplaying especially if they have not shown the feats for it. You are basing all this from. "The causal control over time." It's not like we have actually seen the feat mind you. If they did I would be perfectly fine with this.

What's the feat gotta do with that? And it's not just "the causal control over time" there is also "her power is part of the causality group" and her ability is time. Which means time is part of the causality (same as fate and probability).

And i do not see how having a feat would change how you view the equalization of causalities here. Having a feat would make it basically as undeniable as it can get, but it wouldn't change that it is simply "time is part of causality so their acausality covers it".

Well your first explanation wasn't very good tbh so I did not understand it. As for guns a pretty large difference is made. I mean the first verse already surpasses guns by virtue of being a 2-A so... That being said I get your point now.

Nit picking on that guns vs 2-A thing smh. But ok im glad you understood my point.

It think for me the problem is the use of causality/causation in Rakudai.

What is your problem with it?

 

[Rocker1189]

What is your problem with it?

Rather than a problem I mean how causation is very broad in verse.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean why is that an issue?

Causation is a whole system (an ability system). 1 of the 4 ability systems and said to be the strongest. And it's not "that" broad. It only has the usual things related to causality + time (which is also related to causality depending on how you see it).

I don't really see how causality in rakudai including more stuff than the general causality would be an issue.

 

[Rocker1189]

I dont think you understand me I am not saying it is a bad thing.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok but like you're presenting it as a problem/reason you're not agreeing with the op.

Im getting bamboozled here.

 

[Rocker1189]

Ok but like you're presenting it as a problem/reason you're not agreeing with the op.

Im getting bamboozled here.

I already conceded when I said that I understood you point.

What I meant was my misunderstanding with the use of causality in Rakudai.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ah. I see. That's 2 agreements for the addition then (without including me and Ant).

Let's see what Schnee and Risci have to say on the topic before adding this.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

BUMP