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Minor Arceus and CT Hax Additions

But im not arguing for existence erasure though (not necessarily that anyway). All im arguing for is them being able to cause mental, physical and spiritual level destruction for being able to destroy the "spirit" the LT made along with the universe.

Thats not automatically existence erasure unless im interpreting something incorrectly.
 
@Kukui

Soul Manipulation as an attack, sure. Passively? Heck no. We don't know what Dialga's ability would have done over time and it could have just as easily destroyed the universe and remade it with its Reality Warping.
 
(Reposting it again so you'll see)

Rep, im not talking about Dialga alone anymore. As you've proven above, and what we agreed to, what Dialga was doing for Cyrus was actively done, not passively. That much we covered.

What I am talking about now is a manga only feat Dialga and Palkia do that is debatebly passive. Something done after the LT stop Dialga, it has nothing to do with Cyrus. Scans shown below to show what im talking about currently.

CT destruction (4)
Here, when Palkia appears, both of them just by being there start screwing up reality

CT destruction (5)
The effects of them being there start to spread, tearing reality and its space-time apart

CT destruction (6)
Confirmed to be complete total nothingness when time and space are teared apart, which is the area around Dialga and Palkia as well (hence their I.S. in the first place). That would include the spirit from the LT as well.

THIS is where im saying it might be passive from the manga. Not what Dialga does for T.G.

EDIT: Nvm
 
@Kukui

The exact same thing you've posted stated that they were tearing time and space apart to achieve nothingness rather than erasing things into nothingness passively.

It's also not something they do passively. It came across due to the conflict of their space-time powers when they started fighting. It's not just a passive measure. You're intentionally leaving out context.
 
Well these were scans that I gathered from their RT's for this wikia and it didnt have that included.

In that case, my apologies here too then.
 
With passive out of the question entirely, they can still have active mental, physical and spiritual destruction then, which would then give resistances to the ones who should have it.
 
@Kukui

I already stated earlier that we don't power scale abilities in Pokemon, especially when they're inconsistent at best.

Also, turning one's entire body into water is basically the effect of Acid Armor in the anime.
 
@Kukui

I was also watching the US/UM scenes on YouTube. Cyrus says this to the player:

"I can sense in you the strong desire to protect... something. You have a powerful spirit... That must mean this isn't the world I desired. I used the power of the Pokemon that control time and space to create a perfect world, where the human spirit does not exist. That was when a great shadow appeared and engulfed me... And brought me to this world... But it's too late.. All too late. I cannot stop now. I must remove the weak, incomplete human spirit from the world and bring it perfection!"

Cyrus associates the spirit the the desire, thus the emotional response, to protect others.
 
Thats not according to what I've seen. For instance, iirc, we powerscale Mewtwos psychic hax above any psychic non-legendary like Alakazam for Mewtwo being a legendary. If we're accepting that for Mewtwo, it'd be ridiculous to not do the same thing for Arceus when it comes to elemental abilities in Pokemon. What part of this is inconsistent?

"I can sense in you the strong desire to protect... something. You have a powerful spirit... That must mean this isn't the world I desired. I used the power of the Pokemon that control time and space to create a perfect world, where the human spirit does not exist. That was when a great shadow appeared and engulfed me... And brought me to this world... But it's too late.. All too late. I cannot stop now. I must remove the weak, incomplete human spirit from the world and bring it perfection!"

Only the beginning of this notes something along the lines of emotional responses. Like before, Cyrus still talks about how the overal human spirit is incomplete and uneccesary. That human spirit is comprised of not just emotion, but all of what the LT stand for. Otherwise Cyrus would just talk about how he wants to erase emotion and not the other parts. There's no reason why Cyrus would want to get rid of only a small part of the "Spirit" instead of just the entire "Spirit" in general.
 
Cyrus's entire quote is based around emotion, bruh. He's blatantly associating them with each other if he makes note of your spirit right after your desire to protect.
 
@Kukui

But Cyrus is correlating "desire" with the presence of the human spirit. You can erase desire alone by removing emotion.

As I stated earlier, he also explicitly complained about the emotions rolling inside of him and correlated them to the spirit. Thus by erasing emotions you would erase spirit.
 
Even if its associated with emotion, that does not mean Cyrus only wants to get rid of specifically emotion and that really makes no sense. The spriit in humans and pokemon is not just emotion, and if Cyrus wanted to get rid of only emotion, why keep saying stuff like "incomplete human spirit" or "where the human spirit does not exist".

EDIT: Rep ninjad me.
 
Kukui, if Cyrus wanted to erase mind and soul or whatever, that would kill everything (Himself included) and render his entire plan null.

I have seen nothing that associates Cyrus's definition of spirit with anything but emotion.
 
Multiple reasons (other than "PIS" being mentioned alot) for why that isnt true.

1.) "it killing everything" is kinda what Cyrus was going for as well. I mean, y'know, resetting the universe would surely kill everyone and everything else in said universe?

2.) Im fairly certain Cyrus isn't stupid enough to do something that would affect him as well without a plan. Given he had the red chain to make their powers under his total control, there's nothing implying Cyrus wouldn't just tell them to leave him alone but off everything else. In addition, once again, its already confirmed in USUM that Cyrus got his perfect world using them, so that prove's he found a way to survive. So the "him being killed" argument is kind of moot, unless we should downgrade the reset feat since it didn't effect Cyrus at all no?

3.) Even if we went with the "just emotion" route, that by what your saying should have still offed Cyrus like everything else but it didnt. So whether he wanted emotion gone, or the whole "spirit" gone, either case should have resulted in Cyrus's demise and plan being null but neither is the case.

Also refer to here . Because minority agreed the "spirit" the LT made was as literal as the word itself. Its exactly the reason why they were accepted to have soul manip and immunity to it.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Um, if Cyrus only wanted to erase emotion, he would have simply killed Mesprit... You know, the being of emotion.
Click to expand...
This. So much this, im surprised this wasn't thought up earlier.

All Cyrus would have to do is literally take Mespirit out of the picture to do this and he captures all 3 of the lake guardians anyway. There's absolutely no reason why he wouldn't be able to do this.

Not only would just wanting emotion gone go against the entire purpose of the game (T.G. wouldnt even need to capture Dialga or Palkia, just kill Mespirit themselves) but if emotion was all that was to be destroyed, then all 3 of the lake guardians wouldnt even be needed to stop this.
 
Because its the being of emotion? It's the same thing we concluded for Dialga and Palkia. If either of them die, then time and space is destroyed.

If they were able to live for as long as the concept they govern lives we would have given them A.E. and sooner at that.
 
Well, going by common sense, if you are a concept and you get killed by whatever, its either the concept you govern dies too or you live as long as the concept does. Usually the former is assumed more unless proven otherwise by the latter.

Heck, in the LT's case, whoever even touches/harms them loses their [insert here] quality.
 
Really? Then why do I only see being of emotion on its page here, and only the bringer of emotion on bulbapedia and its pokedex entries?
 
"Being of Emotion/Knowledge/Willpower" is just a title though. It doesnt suddenly invalidate them being conceptual beings. It's no different than Dialga and Palkia being called Masters of Time or Masters of Space and they're the concepts of space-time.
 
What do you mean exactly? Because im fairly certain all of us here have always agreed they conceptualize their concepts the same way the CT do.

But anyways, for starters theres this:

"The lake guardians, Sinnoh's native Legendary trio, represent the spirit of all consciousness, with Uxie embodying knowledge, Mesprit embodying emotion, and Azelf embodying willpower. According to legend, having been created by the Original One, the trio have the power to tame the powerful dragons it also created." - - https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Legendary_Pok%C3%A9mo

And some of the LT's pokedex entries themselves also provide stuff for them to conceptualize Emotion, Knowledge, and Willpower. I'll use Uxie as an example.

"It is said that its emergence gave humans the intelligence to improve their quality of life."

"When Uxie flew, people gained the ability to solve problems. It was the birth of knowledge."

It's clear they're saying Uxie brought about all knowledge for people and pokemon just by emerging/being born. It's no different than Dialga and Palkia's birth being the start of time and space.

And really, both trios are direct parts/aspects of Arceus so it wouldn't really make much sense to say only 3 of the lot are conceptual.
 
"We've always agreed on it" is not an argument. Opinions change all the time and if there's no actual sufficient evidence it's irrelevant.
 
Embodiment =/= concept of something. Pretty sure that was discussed a long time ago.

Giving people stuff =/= evidence for being the concept of something. It would be like making Arceus the concept of life, for giving life to these pokemon. Or when Prometheus gave man fire in greek legend, its not like he is the concept of fire.
 
@Kukui

Where does that first quote come from? I can't find it on Uxie's Bulbapedia page.

Being able to grant intelligence =/= embodying it.
 
@Ever

Except what are the opinions based on? Because again, there are reasons why we've accepted the LT being conceptual beings or else this wouldnt be a thing in the first place. However i'll let Cal talk on this since he'll argue it better.

@Somebody

Since when? Are we going to say the CT aren't conceptual now either since their sealed forms embody time, space and antimatter as well? And the difference between this and your example is giving life to pokemon (specific pokemon anyway) is just life manip if anything. Giving people in general the natural ability to think, feel emotion, or have will is an entirely different ball park, and its directly stated in the dex their emergence is the birth of [insert concept here]. It's no different than the CT's case, so either we have to accept it for all 6 or none of them.
 
Reppuzan said:
@Kukui
Where does that first quote come from? I can't find it on Uxie's Bulbapedia page.

Being able to grant intelligence =/= embodying it.
Click to expand...
I linked it with the quote. And granting everyone intelligence via birth is kind of different than just giving someone knowledge.

EDIT: Wrong link, my bad. Fixing it.
 
@Kukui

Giving everyone knowledge after taking flight is not the same as embodying something upon birth.

Digimon's God developed all of the initial concepts of the Digital World, but we don't automatically call him the concept of everything.
 
Um, that sounds completely different.

For one, God in Digimon, if anything, would be in the same boat as Arceus, not Uxie.

Second, God didnt establish the concepts of the D.W. just upon his emergence. Uxie literally gives everyone knowledge upon his birth, which is again no different at all from Dialga's brith making time and Palkia's birth making space (which we accept as them being the concepts, or one of the reasons, not 100% sure). So either Dialga and Palkia need to lose their concepts or the LT need to keep theres as nothing makes them different.
 
Now that you bring it up Prof, you have a point.

Where did the Creation Trio = concept come from?
 
I'd try and dig into that, but, with all due respect, it would be far better if Cal were to explain that since when it comes to this he explains much better and knows more.
 
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