Minor Arceus and CT Hax Additions

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

Are we talking Spear Pillar or Alamos Town?

You can easily erase things with space-time hax.

Doesn't mean they were erasing mind, body, and soul nor were they doing so passively.

Your entire argument (and the vast majority of your arguments about this topic) required assumptions heaped on top of assumptions. We don't have any physical evidence of any of them doing that passively nor do we have a definitive statement of this.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Dude , did ya just use the dpa manga? The one that's so widely over the place that its insane. Also Hareta takes a ride on palkia, a pissed off one, into a wormhole.in the same scene..

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui

Both here. If anything Alamos Town is the support because for Spear Pillar, that is where Cyrus explicity states he's using them to eradicate all of the lake trios spirit. Alamos Town just provides more examples.

Okay and if that is the case they were doing the erasure explicity as Cyrus stated and wanted with their space-time hax.

Asking this again, what exactly are the assumptions?? Because with all due respect, all of this in the end should still be perfectly clear cut and dry. The distortion in the games was made by their presence on spear pillar as shown and that is what was destroying the "spirit" the Lake Trio made for the universe, which is the mind and souls we are talking about here. Im failing to see in the end how any of this is assumption.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Dude , did ya just use the dpa manga? The one that's so widely over the place that its insane. Also Hareta takes a ride on palkia, a pissed off one, into a wormhole.in the same scene..

PIS. And we accept manga feats so whether its all over the place or not doesnt matter. Heck, before the upgrade this was where the CT originally got their Infinite Speed from.

 

[AguilaR101]

Sorry but no, at this point there are more showings of them not passively erasing mind and spirit than there are of them doing so.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Dude, not everything happens to be pis, thats your answer for litterally everything.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And you already know my answer to that, until someone can well explain why my answer is wrong.

Unless we're saying Cyrus is suddenly untrustworthy, or we're going to downgrade the CT's universal reset since their distortion didn't instantly kill off any regular person or pokemon, it still should be blatent and outright PIS outlier ridden for any human or pokemon to not get passively erased by them in instances like the anime so they can stop whatever the trio do that would wreck everything.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Dude, not everything happens to be pis, thats your answer for litterally everything.

No it isnt, and im simply going off of what was accepted.

Your the one who brought up the manga being "all over the place" and im responding that it doesnt matter since it was long already accepted and still is. If it wasnt seen as PIS, this wouldnt be the case.

And considering Pokemon in its entireity is like near 100% PIS its not surprising to see "PIS" be brought up a lot for it.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Maybe it doesn't. apply to living beings, considering it erased zero humans or pokemon , and there has been zero instances of that, ever.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Maybe it doesn't. apply to living beings, considering it erased zero humans or pokemon , and there has been zero instances of that, ever.

If we're talking about Spear Pillar, USUM has a different say on the matter. Because it outright confirms Cyrus got his perfect world from whatever universe he came from. That would mean he successfully reset it by destroying it and then remaking it.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

First off spoilers dude.

Second off, And? What's that gotta do with passive existence.erasure?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

First off spoilers dude.
Second off, And? What's that gotta do with passive existence.erasure?

Its not spoilers actually. This was, like, posted a while ago in the Pokemon discussion thread for everyone to see and Dragon above said it was already confirmed in a japanese trailer.

It proves the distortion made by their presence succesfully erased the current universe and replaced it when actively making the new one for Cyrus.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

It is spoilers, not everyone is in that thread. Not everyone watches Japanese trailers and some people avoid trailers. Im already of that but it's a spoiler , no way around it.

And? That clearly wasn't passive . If it was passive Cyrus wouldn't if needed to tell them to do it.

We see how it works in diamond and pearl, which is the universe that Cyrus is from, just without a protagonist to stop him.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I see. Well my apologies but, again, someone already posted that in the pokemon discussion thread for a while and without a spoiler tag so it was just regular info talked upon by, well, anyone who wanted to and I assumed a lot of us picked up on that. Still, if it was indeed a spoiler to you, my apologies again for that. Wasnt my intention to ruin anything for you at all.

Thats just it. Cyrus never told them to even make it, not even once, they just do it anyway. I provided this above for Rep in a link.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

But he's not doing that there, he just makes a mini galaxy, the actual bullshit didn't happen yet.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Also no im aware of usum spoiles just saying for future reference, the gane aint even out yet, unles ya pirate it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yes it did. That was what the distortion was doing, Cyrus even said "this will bring about the destruction of all things" when the distortion from them came about . "Destruction of all things" being noted.

The only active thing the CT did for Cyrus was starting the process of the new universe until the LT lolnoped it. Everything else was passive. The destruction of the current universe and its spirit was the passive effect of the distortion while the creation of the new universe, with no spirit, was the active feat of Dialga and Palkia.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

That wasn't existence erasure, he just saud time is distorting.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yes and that time distortion would bring about the destruction of everything, it being the "spirit" Cyrus wanted to get rid of.

So it would still count as erasing the LT's spirit along with destroying and remaking the universe.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

That defintly is not passive then and it clearly takes a considerable length of time.

 

[AguilaR101]

Even if we accept this based off the one feat you provide (and ignoring all contradictions in different continuities) it's still erasure over an unknown period of time and not the "will erase your existance by being near it" you want it to be.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

How is it not passive? The distortion that was destroying the current universe was made by Dialga's presence the literal second Dialga stepped foot onto Spear Pillar, the game even shows this.

And there's definitely no evidence of how long it would have taken to do it. The LT's interferance kinda shuts down any chance of seeing exactly how long and besides which im fairly certain all of the CT are able to easily make universes extremely quickly.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

But again, there's no proof that this process is passive nor is there any proof that it affects the soul.

I should also bring up the fact that Dialga didn't do this by choice. Cyrus used the Red Chain to rip Dialga out of space-time and order him to begin distorting it.

There's no indication that it would passively happen.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Well it definitly usnt instant.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Actually, it think it does say he was gonna get rid of the soul, but that may just mean emotions given context of the whole thing. But it is said at some point. .

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Aguila

Games are primary canon so no dice. And looking at your replies more carefully, why are you even assuming im arguing for "existence erasure"?

@Reppuzan

Their presence making the distortion IS the passive part of this. And not affecting the soul? The Lake Trio literally created "spirit". In the pokemon verse, their spirit is both souls and minds of all people and pokemon in the universe(s). Destroying it would mean destroying the souls and the minds that everyone else has and Cyrus outright tells the player he wants to rip away spirit from everyone. From the player, from his pokemon, from his loved ones, everyone and everything that has it. Its Cyrus's goal.

Cyrus only summoned him with the red chain. he didnt tell Dialga to start distorting time.

@J-Man

So it isnt Instant. Why would that matter? Its very much close to it, at least in a second or 2 which would still make this an impressive feat.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

You're still missing the part about how Cyrus ordered Dialga to begin distorting time with the Red Chain, which means that Dialga was forced to rather than doing it "passively". Read the text:

"With this Red Chain I will pry open this portal to another dimension. I command that you unleash your power for me..."

Cyrus made an order and Dialga followed it. It's not a passive move.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm. When seeing that, I didn't think too much about it for he didnt specifically ask for it, but fair enough.

Then they should at least be given the active ability to do so even if not passive.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

2 seonds more? Thats impossible to tell, it could of taken an hour, we dont know.

I thought they already had erasure?

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm still doubtful of the "mind, body, spirit" part. Yes, he summoned Dialga and Palkia to overcome the Lake Trio.

From when I played Diamond/Pearl/Platinum, I interpreted Cyrus' ideal world as one devoid of emotion, not necessarily the soul. His parents were emotionally neglectful and he was more comfortable around the steadiness of machines than people or Pokemon. He also spends a great amount of time complaining about emotions rather than the soul or knowledge or willpower.

"Your doing so means that this irrational world will remain in existence! Does that make it impossible for me to create a new world? Even if I made new Red Chains, the new world can't be made! Why?! What compels you to protect the two worlds? Is spirit, a vague and incomplete thing, so important to you?! Silence! Enough of your blathering! That's how you justify spirit as something worthwhile?! That is merely humans hoping, deluding themselves that they are happy and safe! The emotions broiling inside me... Rage, hatred, frustration... These ugly emotions arise because of my own incomplete spirit!"

He wanted a world of pure logic and order that wasn't dictated by emotion. He didn't necessarily want to wipe the soul, he just felt that his bothersome emotions made his spirit "incomplete".

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@J-Man

No offense but that sounds very speculative. Why would Dialga sit in place for that long before starting the distortion? Or why Cyrus (who'd logically be in a hurry) would wait that long anyway?

@Rep

"Your doing so means that this irrational world will remain in existence! Does that make it impossible for me to create a new world? Even if I made new Red Chains, the new world can't be made! Why?! What compels you to protect the two worlds? Is spirit, a vague and incomplete thing, so important to you?! Silence! Enough of your blathering! That's how you justify spirit as something worthwhile?!"

In the first part of the quote you posted he already talks about the LT's spirit as being uneccesary and he in all 3 games talks about wanting to get rid of spirit in general that the trio made. It would seem, instead of wanting to get rid of just emotion, he wanted to get rid of all 3 but especially emotion. Afterall, it takes all 3 of what the LT stand for to make spirit so logically Cyrus would need to get rid of the same things to remove it, not just one part of it.

 

[Reppuzan]

Well, I'm not totally opposed to Soul Manipulation (which I thought was on his profile already).

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I meant it may have taken that long, we dont know, we never actually see it happen.

>speculative.

My dude.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

My bad, fell asleep for being too tired. Anyways continuing.

@Rep

If you mean the LT then yes they have soul manip for being the ones to create "Spirit" for all people and pokemon, which is exactly why im arguing for physical, mental, and spiritual destruction for the CT for being able to destroy that "Spirit" for Cyrus and remake the universe without it. And there's still the matter of anime material that would act as support, especially Darkrai being erased as such.

EDIT: Also Rep what about the manga scans I posted above? We definitely accept manga stuff for Pokemon because, well, y'know the reasons and here Dialga and Palkia seem to be passively destroying the universe just by being there looking at each other.

@J-Man

But what even implies it took that long in the first place? We legitimiately see the distortion come the moment Dialga arrives at Spear Pillar, so that'd still be no more than a few seconds at best.

 

[PaChi2]

Im neutral to alk of this.

The CT doing that passively seems quite unlikely given their usual portrayal.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im neutral to alk of this.
The CT doing that passively seems quite unlikely given their usual portrayal.

It was agreed above that its more active than passive if anything, however the manga versions may be able to do it passively as I showed above. Im trying to get feedback on that right now.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

Games are the primary canon. We're not going to pick and choose how we're going to interpret an event.

And the distortion doesn't exactly do anything before it's stopped.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Reppuzan

And we still accept manga material, especially this when this was where the CT first got their Infinite Speed from. Besides which, that scene in the manga isnt even in the games. Dialga in that manga was already stopped by the Lake Trio before that happened. Palkia coming in to fight him is its own thing, not what the game does. So the games don't contradict Dialga and Palkia making complete nothingness from their distortion.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kukui

Again, tear in reality/distortion =/= erasure. That's still space-time hax.

It's not erasure until someone actually says erasure or something equivalent.

 

[PaChi2]

I'm with Repp here.