Minecraft Addition: Creative Mode

[FinePoint]

Were I a pettier man, I would ask that you stop "derailing my points" for addressing something I feel is unrelated. In any case, I do feel your objection to 7 Days godmode is irrelevant- the fact that it is a godmode equal to Creative Mode suits the comparison fine. It is, of course, not the sole example, simply the one I thought of first. There's a colossal list of the things, as you are no doubt aware of.

The difference is that it's portrayed exclusively as a cheat mode with no nuance in that game, and is more directly in contrast with the objective of the entire game, which is to survive the 7 day horde. I don't think they're comparable in this context.

They have improved building in Alpha19 though, which is cool.

And I think your reasons for stating they are not as valid are, frankly, bunk. Which gives the impression of cherry picking Creative Mode. I disagree with both being allowed, but choosing one over the other over points like "Creative mode has a book" is silly.

I do not see how an official book is silly evidence.

I play Minecraft regularly and hosted the VSBW Minecraft Server for a year. My only bias is for wank. Hate it with every cell in my body.

Okay. It is fine, I just wanted to make sure.

I'm sorry that my semantics have angered you so. That said, it is in fact precisely that. It is invulnerability for cheating so you do not have to deal with mobs while you are "creative" and/or "******* about". That is quite literally the exact reason for it.

I am not angry, I'm listening to the Deltarune soundtrack and playing Pokemon. I'm just aware of the impact language can have on people. A lot of assumption can be baked into a word.

It surely does not, as Creative Mode is one of them. It's just accessible without necessarily using a cheat code. This is absolutely a precedent and failure to see that implies lack of desire to do so.

To me the distinction made by the developers is important. If they considered it cheating, why would they not put it under cheat mode?

If survival mode weren't in the game, sure. Not otherwise.

This seems strange to me. So, the fact it's the default mode isn't what's driving your preference?
What is then? That it's easier?

 

[Moritzva]

I haven’t seen one single proof of survival mode being the main game mode for Minecraft… what you are saying contradicts everything the official team and everything has said… we have brought many proof that creative mode is a game mode with how you are supposed to play it.

The books? The animations? I haven’t seen any books talking about The Creative Mode Guy’s Guide To Redstone. Where is your evidence?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

My only bias is for wank. Hate it with every cell in my body.

Could you explain how it’s wank when it’s already in the game? I didn’t really understand that part

 

[Moritzva]

Could you explain how it’s wank when it’s already in the game? I didn’t really understand that part

A common form of wank is to create profiles, keys, or similar off of theoretical or non-canon ideas that would be high tiered or very powerful if true. Creative Mode as a key can be seen that way.

 

[FinePoint]

First off, a lot of your argument relies on conjecture as to what Creative Mode is. You claim it’s purpose is to be creative - so? How does that relate to lore? What’s the basis for it? You’ve provided no argument for such.

First, thank you for responding. I know the notification system can be scuffed. I believe Ant advises using the watched threads page for this reason.

The point is that it doesn't relate to lore at all, and nether does Survival Mode. The last semblance of lore the game had was rejected in a previous CRT, and even added to the revision rules. There is no lore anymore.

Second off, simply saying in the CRT that it’s not a cheat mode doesn’t make it not a cheat mode. The arguments presented are, indeed, arguing for cheats to be allowed, but simply calling it a different name.

Why would the developers not include Creative in Cheat Mode then? Why would they write an entire book for a mode that was only for ******* around and cheating?

Third, do not accuse Bambu of bias simply because he dislikes some of the revisions being made. That’s just bad faith and I don’t see how that debunks any of his points.

I was more-so worried with him calling the game a demeaning name. I wasn't sure how to interpret it, but he cleared it up for me. I do not think he is biased, I was just worried for a moment.

Fourth, dismissing the fact that an argument goes against our rules by saying it’s a slippery slope argument is both a falsehood and ignores that, no matter what you say, we don’t allow cheat modes. It doesn’t matter what you call it, if it’s a mode that allows cheats and abilities that bypass the typical mechanics of the game, it is a cheat mode.

This assumes that it's bypassing "typical" mechanics of the game, which assumes Survival Mode is more valid than Creative Mode, since it implies Creative Mode is derivative. Guidebooks and general sentiment don't really support this.

Fifth, nobody has mentioned the menu, ever. The lore, the books, the animations, they all feature Survival Mode. There is actual evidence that Survival Mode is, indeed, the canon form of Minecraft.

There is a book for Creative Mode. It doesn't surprise me that there is more material for Survival Mode, since it's more popular. But Survival Mode being valid doesn't mean Creative Mode isn't.

No evidence has been provided that Creative Mode is a canon, story-supported form of Minecraft. If you can’t provide that evidence, then your argument has no basis.

What exactly is your basis that Survival is a canon, story-supported form of Minecraft that Creative doesn't also have?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

The books? The animations? I haven’t seen any books talking about The Creative Mode Guy’s Guide To Redstone. Where is your evidence?

Minecraft is supposed to be played in those game modes, survival is just only one of the game modes you can play.

the guidebooks teaches you on how to play Minecraft which Creative mode is apart in and that Creative is a game mode that is Minecraft and not just something thats in Minecraft (like mods, texture packs and more)

The creator or the official website states that you are supposed to play Minecraft the way you wanna play it. The game modes are all equally the way you are supposed to play Minecraft.

The books are a guide in how to play Minecraft… and creative mode is apart of it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not intending to weigh in too much on this, but personally, I'm with Mr. Bambu, too.
The creative mode's purpose is the exact opposite of showing how the character interacts with the world and its physics. It doesn't show his capabilities more than intentionally abusable game mechanics. What I mean is stuff like not getting hurt by falling in water from very high. In real life that would be a superhuman durability feat, but in a game it should often not be taken to represent such as it's just a programming choice.
In this case, it's just the easiest way to implement an interface for the player to shape the world unobstructed by its usual logic. Intended, yes, but not meant to be representative of a character's capabilities.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The difference is that it's portrayed exclusively as a cheat mode with no nuance in that game, and is more directly in contrast with the objective of the entire game, which is to survive the 7 day horde. I don't think they're comparable in this context.

They have improved building in Alpha19 though, which is cool.

I do not see how an official book is silly evidence.

Okay. It is fine, I just wanted to make sure.

I am not angry, I'm listening to the Deltarune soundtrack and playing Pokemon. I'm just aware of the impact language can have on people. A lot of assumption can be baked into a word.

To me the distinction made by the developers is important. If they considered it cheating, why would they not put it under cheat mode?

This seems strange to me. So, the fact it's the default mode isn't what's driving your preference?
What is then? That it's easier?

Unrelated to the wiki, the game is in Alpha20 as of recently. Looks fun, my PC's gone to shit so it can't run it anymore, but uh... looks great. Hundreds of new POIs. This, however, actually is derailing, so moving forward...

An official guidebook is not an indicator of legitimacy of a mode, at least not compared to a mode actually being in the game.

Aye. And now you should be at least somewhat sure that I lack this Minecraft hate people are seeing.

Okay?

If that were the case then the distinction of initial gamemode should be extremely important to you, no? Which would mean Survival is the intended gamemode. I don't particularly agree with that basis, but still, it confuses me that you're going against the developer's apparent intent to add Creative mode to the profile. I'm certain the developers considered it godmode, for the record, but that's Death of the Author and not really relevant.

I have explained my beliefs regarding godmode like ten times now.

 

[Promestein]

A sandbox mode is a sandbox mode and I don't really think it's worth taking into account. We don't slap any and all sandbox modes and optional features like this onto pages just because they're not explicitly non-canon.

 

[Moritzva]

For the record, I’ve looked into the Creative Mode book in the past - while I don’t have it on me to check, it is far more objective and has no record or concepts of the Minecraft world in terms of lore (e.g. recommendations as to how to beat or fight certain enemies).

Even if this doesn’t convince you, official animatics such as the one for The Nether Update clearly show and portray Survival Mode. It is impossible to argue that Creative Mode has more content and more of a basis in lore than Survival Mode - because Creative Mode is a cheat mode, nothing more.

I’ve said this multiple times. Please stop ignoring my points and asking for my proof when I’ve said exactly that. Furthermore, saying “Survival Mode being valid doesn’t mean Creative Mode isn’t!” is a moot point, because there’s actual evidence for Survival Mode. It’s on you to prove Creative Mode’s legitimacy, and I see nothing except “Well, you don’t have evidence that it’s not canon! Also, it’s not a cheat mode, and if you say it’s a cheat mode you’re wrong.”

And it is a cheat mode.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I’ll guess I’ll just go back to being neutral and maybe find some very blunt evidence of the game mode creative being one of the main ways to play Minecraft

 

[Moritzva]

I’ll guess I’ll just go back to being neutral and maybe find some very blunt evidence of the game mode creative being one of the main ways to play Minecraft

If a statement of canonicity or similar can be found, I’ll gladly change my stance.

 

[FinePoint]

Not intending to weigh in too much on this, but personally, I'm with Mr. Bambu, too.

A sandbox mode is a sandbox mode and I don't really think it's worth taking into account.

I've counted your votes.
I've also contacted several more staff that have participated in Minecraft CRTs in the past.
Depending on their votes, this might finally be over, a thought that makes me both sad and relieved at the same time.

For the record, I’ve looked into the Creative Mode book in the past - while I don’t have it on me to check, it is far more objective and has no record or concepts of the Minecraft world in terms of lore (e.g. recommendations as to how to beat or fight certain enemies).

I can't attest to the exact contents of the book, Monkey mainly brought it up.

I’ve said this multiple times. Please stop ignoring my points and asking for my proof when I’ve said exactly that.

Sorry, you and Monkey were talking at the same time as I was typing. I didn't mean to make you repeat yourself.

Furthermore, saying “Survival Mode being valid doesn’t mean Creative Mode isn’t!” is a moot point, because there’s actual evidence for Survival Mode. It’s on you to prove Creative Mode’s legitimacy, and I see nothing except “Well, you don’t have evidence that it’s not canon! Also, it’s not a cheat mode, and if you say it’s a cheat mode you’re wrong.”

Well, there is evidence, it's just minor in comparison. I don't think we have to pick one, they can both be valid. That's why I just want a second key. Survival mode is undeniable, but they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

And it is a cheat mode.

Okay. I'm not going to argue about this anymore. I feel as if I've said everything I can.

 

[FinePoint]

I'm going to go play games with my brother now. I'll be back soon/later.
Please don't close this, there's probably more people coming, and I'm curious if Monkey can come up with something.
The discussion is thankfully more civil than I was expecting, so it shouldn't harm anything.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I’m still in my bed typing with a phone… so just woke up👁.👁

 

[Lou_change]

Creative mode is explicitly separated from cheats even then we allow command blocks Yeah they exist in minecraft story mode and the mini series but the profile has abilities it is only shown to possess in minecraft's base game and can only be made with commands also the current standard that allows command blocks should technically allow for the fact it can just turn a gamemode to creative.
But I don't know the standards are weird and can change so I am neutral.

 

[MrKerf]

I feel like I was ignored

Here it is. Again. Right from the book. The official book - lore per say. Although I would've argued it is more of a Word of God. Eh.
Point is, Creative mode does get its mentions on both its mechanics and being one of the ways to play. What's more to say?

Also, Gyro said "Thank you. While it is less direct than other game's guidebooks, it does support Creative Mode as a legitimate way to play.", so I am pretty sure he's on board with the addition.

 

[Moritzva]

I feel like I was ignored

Here it is. Again. Right from the book. The official book - lore per say. Although I would've argued it is more of a Word of God. Eh.
Point is, Creative mode does get its mentions on both its mechanics and being one of the ways to play. What's more to say?

Also, Gyro said "Thank you. While it is less direct than other game's guidebooks, it does support Creative Mode as a legitimate way to play.", so I am pretty sure he's on board with the addition.

None of that mentions the Minecraft world and lore, and specifically speaks of “ways to play”. That speaks purely on a meta level rather than anything that supports it having a key.

A cheat mode is a way to play, that doesn’t mean it‘s a canonical, lore-supported form of existence. None of this information changes anything, in fact, it is exactly what I said proves that Creative Mode does not deserve a key.

 

[MrKerf]

What lore exactly are you talking about?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, seriously, what lore? Mobteria or something along those lines is the only base game lore

 

[azontr]

Not even gonna lie to you dude I had no idea that Minecraft had actual lore.

 

[Moritzva]

Literally any basis on which we can say "Yes, Creative Mode is canon and not a cheat mode." Anything. That is all I ask.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Some thoughts on game modes

Creative mode You’ve got infinite materials and build without any delay. Can be played both as singleplayer and as multi player. You can share the maps with other players somehow. Perhaps just share...

web.archive.org

So that's what I'm going to do.

Back before anyone knew who I was, I used to wanted to make huge games. Games where you can do anything, and everything you see in the game is there for a reason in the game. No fake doors that don't...

web.archive.org

Here is what game modes Notch intended to have for Minecraft and more information

https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us/articles/360058743992-Minecraft-Differences-Between-Creative-Survival-and-Hardcore-Game-Modes

Here is how to play Minecraft and differences between the game modes

Comunidad

www.minecraft.net

The official Minecraft website values the Minecraft wiki to be a place for valuable Information which has Creative mode stated to be a main game mode

Cheats came after Creative mode

I'll look for more info tho

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Here it say that Minecraft is split into two separate game modes. Creative and Survival.

Minecraft

Minecraft is a game about placing blocks to build anything you can imagine. At night monsters come out, make sure to build a shelter before that happens.

web.archive.org

 

[Moritzva]

None of that has literally anything to do with canon, and purely supports Creative Mode as a cheat mode. "It is a valid option to play the game" doesn't mean it has in-verse canonicity or support.

 

[MrKerf]

Here is a screen from Guide to exploration - a first edition of Guide to Survival. Enough said.

 

[Moritzva]

Me: "Okay, but can you provide evidence besides Creative Mode being a game mode, as a cheat mode being a game mode doesn't mean it's not a cheat mode."

Over and over, across the entirety of today: "So, it's a game mode..."

Like, this time, we're literally getting a game manual that also discusses what consoles you can play Minecraft on. That's not what I'm asking for nor is it evidence of anything other than it, indeed, being a cheat mode in the game.

 

[DaReaperMan]

None of that has literally anything to do with canon, and purely supports Creative Mode as a cheat mode. "It is a valid option to play the game" doesn't mean it has in-verse canonicity or support.

Uh, what canon of Minecraft, again? Educate me

 

[Abstractions]

The difference is that it's portrayed exclusively as a cheat mode with no nuance in that game, and is more directly in contrast with the objective of the entire game, which is to survive the 7 day horde. I don't think they're comparable in this context.

Hordes can be turned off with zombie spawns in the menu, similar to how Peaceful functions but not tied to a difficulty setting.

While I'm neutral on the subject, one could argue with you that reaching The End and defeating the Ender Dragon is the objective to Minecraft, neither game truly ends as a result of this objective being completed but only Minecraft has an "ending" of sorts, which one can interpret as a start and end to a story.

Creative Mode would rather ignore this objective completely similarly to how 7 Days would ignore the horde; to engage in the large building aspect tied to the game. So personally as a player and avid enjoyer of both games I do believe these examples to be comparable.

Another way a person can look at the subject of canon would be Achievements, which will be disabled in some versions of the game should you use Creative, this applies to 7D2D of course as well. While not completely damning if you argue strictly for PC Minecraft, it shows that there is an acknowledgement that this likely isn't the way the game is intended to be played.

Don't consider this me being completely against the idea, however. Just that I'd need a little more convincing than that.

Although, I personally don't agree with the Ender Dragon resistance, the dragon not being passive in any way is by design because you are supposed to kill it. I'd be quicker to call it a development oversight than a real ability it has.

 

[Moritzva]

Uh, what canon of Minecraft, again? Educate me

Not Creative Mode.

No, seriously, this should be a matter of common sense. I really don't know how else to put it - even in a game with little sense of direct story, there is a clear difference between what is technically in the game (cheat modes for exploring mechanics freely) and what the actual game represents, what the animatics represent, and what the mechanics are there for. If you're looking for an exact definition of what counts as 'canon', it's three in the morning and I'm not exactly the objective arbiter of that, but this certainly ain't it chief.

 

[MrKerf]

First of all - it is not a cheat mode. By definition cheat mode is something that gives an unfair advantage. Here we have a gamemode. A gamemode that you choose when creating the world. One that is stated as an official game mode on par with survival. One which intention is to give people easier way to create. By design it has such intentions, not to give an unfair advantage. These are not the same.
Hell, we have actual cheat mode in commands.

Second - what canon? I can tell what's not canon. Animatics are not canon.
Game represents what it has inside. Minecraft has no lore and no canon. People play in any gamemode they like, look my screen above. Promo animations aren't canon.
I don't understand how can you say that one of the gamemodes is supposedly non canon, while books clearly say otherwise.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It literally states that singleplayer is the Original/default way to play Minecraft, which shows the game modes from singleplayer. Also they were even skeptical in adding survival mode to begin with.

 

[Moritzva]

It literally states that singleplayer is the Original/default way to play Minecraft, which shows the game modes from singleplayer. Also they were even skeptical in adding survival mode to begin with.

I just said "it's a game mode" is not an argument, and I explained why multiple times.

Second off, it absolutely is a cheat mode, additionally as explained before. I am not going to continue repeating myself if new arguments aren't even being brought to the table.

So far, an overwhelming majority of staff seems to oppose the revisions at hand.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Second off, it absolutely is a cheat mode, additionally as explained before. I am not going to continue repeating myself if new arguments aren't even being brought to the table.

How is it a cheat mode when cheats came after creative mode?

To me personally it seems that even if I give you blunt statement of creative mode not being cheats, you'll give another reason why not to accept it... But I'll look and see

 

[MrKerf]

You've literally explained nothing so far. You claim that Creative is non canon, despite not saying what this imaginary canon supposed to be. You continue to say that this is a cheat mode despite evidence saying otherwise.

The difference between Creative mode and something like Cheat mode in 7 days (by what you all say, since I never played 7 Days) is the fact that it is a valid option to play, confirmed by developers, and not something to make it entirely easier.

I am leaving for the time being, try not closing this thread yet, please.

 

[Moritzva]

I've explained plentifully, and reiterating the same arguments and ignoring my counterpoints until I get busy with other things doesn't mean you've won. It means I know the definition of an argument that is getting nowhere.

I'm willing to just let the people decide, as no new evidence has been provided.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

until I get busy with other things doesn't mean you've won.

This isn't about winning, it's being accurate with whats gets accepted onto the wiki

I'm willing to just let the people decide, as no new evidence has been provided.

, I'll try finding new evidence

 

[Antvasima]

Would you like me to collect the supporting arguments and evidence into one post, then?

That is probably a good idea.

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. FinePoint did provide such a summary post shortly afterwards.

Anyway, much like Promestein and DontTalk, I think that Mr. Bambu and Moritzva make good arguments above.

Given that the staff members here with the authority to evaluate content revision threads are mostly against this revision, it seems to have been rejected.

 

[FinePoint]

Given that the staff members here with the authority to evaluate content revision threads are mostly against this revision, it seems to have been rejected.

It seems so, so far.
I've contacted every staff member I could find who had participated in Minecraft CRTs before.
At least SamanPatou said they would look at the thread soon.
They should be given some time to respond too, since the new votes which really skewed it only just showed up.

Though, unless all of them agree then this will probably end up rejected.
Thank you to everyone who's participated. Even if the outcome isn't exactly as I had hoped, the joy of debate itself is a large reason I use this site.
The conversation hasn't been completely useless, maybe I can create a sandbox to use in Fun and Games threads at least.