Minecraft Addition: Creative Mode

[Antvasima]

So has the evaluation score in the first post of this thread been properly updated?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes, please, let's not talk about Adventure/Spectator/Hardcore mode. It's derailing at best.

Honestly, why wouldn't we, outta curiosity? The arguments in favor of Creative absolutely would apply to all of the above. If you have one, there is no reason to not have the others. Mind you, I'm not arguing in favor of including these- to do so is, in my opinion, lunacy- but the fact remains that they are all equally as valid as Creative under the OP's suggestions, like it or not.

 

[Antvasima]

So, given that more staff members with evaluation rights seem to be against this change, should we close this thread, or continue to talk a bit more? Perhaps each side should explain their arguments, after which we can ask some more staff members to take a look?

 

[MrKerf]

The evaluation score is a day off it seems, so we probably need to wait more.
Plus, I've provided screens from guidebook (above), which confirm Creative mode. Maybe it'll change people's opinion.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

this should not be closed it's a perfectly valid proposal, just give people time to change their minds
assuming they haven't just voted and stopped paying attention to the thread of course, which might happen for some people

 

[Livinmeme]

we have an equal amount of mods and more persons in agree side so....

 

[FinePoint]

So has the evaluation score in the first post of this thread been properly updated?

I updated it as recently as Gohan's post. I don't think anything's changed since then.

So, given that more staff members with evaluation rights seem to be against this change, should we close this thread, or continue to talk a bit more? Perhaps each side should explain their arguments, after which we can ask some more staff members to take a look?

We definitely shouldn't close this yet. Debate is still happening, sides have changed recently, new people are showing up, and new evidence is even being introduced.

Honestly, why wouldn't we, outta curiosity? The arguments in favor of Creative absolutely would apply to all of the above. If you have one, there is no reason to not have the others. Mind you, I'm not arguing in favor of including these- to do so is, in my opinion, lunacy- but the fact remains that they are all equally as valid as Creative under the OP's suggestions, like it or not.

Because it seems more controversial than just Creative Mode. My opinion aside, I would rather not distract the main purpose of the CRT with other additions that are less popular.

 

[FinePoint]

Perhaps each side should explain their arguments, after which we can ask some more staff members to take a look?

Would you like me to collect the supporting arguments and evidence into one post, then?

 

[GyroNutz]

Honestly, why wouldn't we, outta curiosity? The arguments in favor of Creative absolutely would apply to all of the above. If you have one, there is no reason to not have the others. Mind you, I'm not arguing in favor of including these- to do so is, in my opinion, lunacy- but the fact remains that they are all equally as valid as Creative under the OP's suggestions, like it or not.

They're not all equally as valid. Creative Mode has a whole book about it, Adventure and Spectator modes are primarily intended for non-canon multiplayer modes. Even by the OP's suggestions, afaik there's no way to select Adventure or Spectator mode without cheats.

We definitely shouldn't close this yet. Debate is still happening, sides have changed recently, new people are showing up, and new evidence is even being introduced.

I'd recommend contacting some other staff and knowledgeable members. That's probably the only way this thread will get out of the stalemate.

 

[FinePoint]

I'd recommend contacting some other staff and knowledgeable members. That's probably the only way this thread will get out of the stalemate.

Every knowledgeable staff member has already commented, so we'd have to find other staff.
I'm going to try and draft a post which contains all the relevant arguments shortly here.

 

[FinePoint]

Agreement for Creative Mode (As far as I understand)

Empirical Evidence for Creative Mode

• Minecraft has a mode specifically called "Cheat Mode" of which Creative Mode is NOT included, instead being presented as an option in the same exact menu as Survival Mode.
• An official guidebook exists which explains Creative Mode and presents it as a valid alternative way to play Minecraft.

Logical Argument for Creative Mode

• With the End Poem recently rejected, the general consensus seems to be that Minecraft has no definite story or canon. In this scenario, there's little-to-no basis to say that Creative Mode is less of a valid way to play Minecraft.
• It seems far more productive as an indexing wiki to cover both of the primary game modes, rather than just the more popular one. Why cover one of our bases when we could cover both of them?

Opposition and Response

• "Creative Mode is ultimately just a cheat mode. Allowing it as a key would open the door for cheats in other games, such as console commands, godmode, no-clip, etc."

- Ultimately, we would argue that it is not a cheat mode, and I vehemently do not support cheat mode in this game or any other. That's why I've so explicitly rejected everything related to Cheat Mode in this CRT, including console commands and the likes. If anybody ever tried to use this CRT as precedent for cheating in other games, I would personally go and tell the they're completely wrong myself. This is not a cheat mode, it is a different way to play. The "cheating" perspective originates from the mindset that Survival Mode is the primary way to play, but from Creative Mode's own perspective, the fact that monsters are no longer an issue is obviously just to facilitate building. The goal is no longer survival. The purpose of Creative Mode is not to create equipment and kill the Ender Dragon, that much should be obvious. Its goal is to facilitate the second half of Minecraft, which is being creative and creating something from your imagination. The fact that this goal isn't related to fighting is fine, we have plenty of puzzle games and kids shows on this wiki.

• "Survival Mode is still technically the default mode, and what is most commonly portrayed in media."

- Without evidence of an actual canon, this argument seems far too nit-picky to exclude an entire second half of the game. As an indexing site, we do our best to include any important information. The exception is if this information isn't considered part of the primary media, or ignored for inconsistency. With previous points discussed, I don't think either is the case here. Popularity is a non-argument. Our goal is not to index media as it's most popularly portrayed, but rather most accurately. Removing otherwise valid details is counter-productive to that.

• "This is near-impossible to scale, and is littered with game mechanics."

- Welcome to Minecraft. Survival Mode is also littered with game mechanics, as anyone who regularly participates in Minecraft revisions would tell you. As for scaling and indexing, I've already gone through extensive effort to determine exact additions in the OP. It is open for further discussion, and I disagree strongly that it's not possible to index for the same reasons Survival Mode isn't impossible to index.

What about Adventure Mode and Hardcore Mode?

• Adventure Mode is literally just Survival Mode minus breaking and placing blocks. Even if we did include it, it would barely change the profile. The only difference is we'd segment some of the abilities. For the sake of indexing, this is negligible. Hardcore Mode is technically a difficulty, and not a game mode. I would argue heavily this is game mechanics. If you don't know, Spectator Mode isn't its own mode, but is part of Hardcore Mode.
• We don't need to cover everything at once. This CRT is about Creative Mode, and trying to argue for these extra modes at the same time will only distract us. They can be discussed if the future if we must. I would recommend simply not talking about them in this current thread.

I believe this is all the relevant arguments? Let me know if I missed anything. I'm of course fine with the opposition making a similar post.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

They're not all equally as valid. Creative Mode has a whole book about it, Adventure and Spectator modes are primarily intended for non-canon multiplayer modes. Even by the OP's suggestions, afaik there's no way to select Adventure or Spectator mode without cheats.


I'd recommend contacting some other staff and knowledgeable members. That's probably the only way this thread will get out of the stalemate.

In what sense does the book invalidate our loreless gamemode? Spectator mode actually does get chosen without, I believe you can do so after dying in Hardmode. It is a "legitimate means of playing", is it not?

These aren't particularly relevant to the point, I'm just baffled why we're leaving out pieces of the game we don't like when under that argument ("all are valid ways to play"), literally everything should be taken into account.

 

[FinePoint]

In what sense does the book invalidate our loreless gamemode? Spectator mode actually does get chosen without, I believe you can do so after dying in Hardmode. It is a "legitimate means of playing", is it not?

Yes, but we generally consider difficulty game mechanics. It's a separate issue than what this CRT is about.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So you would not consider Creative Mode to be game mechanics, then? It is mechanically exactly the same as Survival?

 

[FinePoint]

So you would not consider Creative Mode to be game mechanics, then? It is mechanically exactly the same as Survival?

Difficulty is a thing in both. Your question assumes Survival Mode is the primary basis, which I disagree with on principle.
Creative Mode contains its own game mechanics, same as Survival Mode.

But I digress, I already explained this all before. I do not want this CRT to be derailed into a discussion of things which aren't Creative Mode.

 

[FinePoint]

Agreement for Creative Mode (As far as I understand)

Empirical Evidence for Creative Mode

• Minecraft has a mode specifically called "Cheat Mode" of which Creative Mode is NOT included, instead being presented as an option in the same exact menu as Survival Mode.
• An official guidebook exists which explains Creative Mode and presents it as a valid alternative way to play Minecraft.

Logical Argument for Creative Mode

• With the End Poem recently rejected, the general consensus seems to be that Minecraft has no definite story or canon. In this scenario, there's little-to-no basis to say that Creative Mode is less of a valid way to play Minecraft.
• It seems far more productive as an indexing wiki to cover both of the primary game modes, rather than just the more popular one. Why cover one of our bases when we could cover both of them?

Opposition and Response

• "Creative Mode is ultimately just a cheat mode. Allowing it as a key would open the door for cheats in other games, such as console commands, godmode, no-clip, etc."

- Ultimately, we would argue that it is not a cheat mode, and I vehemently do not support cheat mode in this game or any other. That's why I've so explicitly rejected everything related to Cheat Mode in this CRT, including console commands and the likes. If anybody ever tried to use this CRT as precedent for cheating in other games, I would personally go and tell the they're completely wrong myself. This is not a cheat mode, it is a different way to play. The "cheating" perspective originates from the mindset that Survival Mode is the primary way to play, but from Creative Mode's own perspective, the fact that monsters are no longer an issue is obviously just to facilitate building. The goal is no longer survival. The purpose of Creative Mode is not to create equipment and kill the Ender Dragon, that much should be obvious. Its goal is to facilitate the second half of Minecraft, which is being creative and creating something from your imagination. The fact that this goal isn't related to fighting is fine, we have plenty of puzzle games and kids shows on this wiki.

• "Survival Mode is still technically the default mode, and what is most commonly portrayed in media."

- Without evidence of an actual canon, this argument seems far too nit-picky to exclude an entire second half of the game. As an indexing site, we do our best to include any important information. The exception is if this information isn't considered part of the primary media, or ignored for inconsistency. With previous points discussed, I don't think either is the case here. Popularity is a non-argument. Our goal is not to index media as it's most popularly portrayed, but rather most accurately. Removing otherwise valid details is counter-productive to that.

• "This is near-impossible to scale, and is littered with game mechanics."

- Welcome to Minecraft. Survival Mode is also littered with game mechanics, as anyone who regularly participates in Minecraft revisions would tell you. As for scaling and indexing, I've already gone through extensive effort to determine exact additions in the OP. It is open for further discussion, and I disagree strongly that it's not possible to index for the same reasons Survival Mode isn't impossible to index.

What about Adventure Mode and Hardcore Mode?

• Adventure Mode is literally just Survival Mode minus breaking and placing blocks. Even if we did include it, it would barely change the profile. The only difference is we'd segment some of the abilities. For the sake of indexing, this is negligible. Hardcore Mode is technically a difficulty, and not a game mode. I would argue heavily this is game mechanics. If you don't know, Spectator Mode isn't its own mode, but is part of Hardcore Mode.
• We don't need to cover everything at once. This CRT is about Creative Mode, and trying to argue for these extra modes at the same time will only distract us. They can be discussed if the future if we must. I would recommend simply not talking about them in this current thread.

I believe this is all the relevant arguments? Let me know if I missed anything. I'm of course fine with the opposition making a similar post.

Also, I've gone ahead and pasted this post into the OP for ease of access, since I can picture it being buried soon.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Should I add the arguments against to the OP as well, then? Given most (if not all) of these have at some point been countered?

Also, I do disagree with arbitrarily cutting off other discussions- they may lack guidebooks but frankly your points would allow them just as easily as they'd allow godmode. I suspect it's due to them being a bit more obviously game-y.

 

[FinePoint]

Should I add the arguments against to the OP as well, then? Given most (if not all) of these have at some point been countered?

Also, I do disagree with arbitrarily cutting off other discussions- they may lack guidebooks but frankly your points would allow them just as easily as they'd allow godmode. I suspect it's due to them being a bit more obviously game-y.

Like I said, you are free to organize the opposition as well.
I would just recommend making it look nice.

It is not arbitrary. They are technically outside the scope of this CRT, and not even the supporters seem interested in them. I've already detailed why I disagree that they're just as valid as Creative Mode, at least for the sake of indexing.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

creative mode is the only extra mode that matters, everything else is pointless to add to a profile I genuinely don't see how it is being argued that they should be added

 

[FinePoint]

creative mode is the only extra mode that matters, everything else is pointless to add to a profile I genuinely don't see how it is being argued that they should be added

I'm recommending we just drop it. This CRT is already pretty complicated, and the OP is already going to be kind of long.
If it must be discussed, then it could be after this one.

 

[FinePoint]

I'd also like to hear more from opposition other than Bambu.
Since new evidence has come up, I feel it's only fair if the old opposition at least acknowledges it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Like I said, you are free to organize the opposition as well.
I would just recommend making it look nice.

It is not arbitrary. They are technically outside the scope of this CRT, and not even the supporters seem interested in them. I've already detailed why I disagree that they're just as valid as Creative Mode, at least for the sake of indexing.

Sure, this CRT is exclusively about Creative, but the point remains that allowing Creative under these arguments would allow all other modes as well. Adventure mode I can sustain, since I suppose it is technically not possible to enter without using cheats or the Command Block, which we have a page for but the others are absolutely possible to enter without said "cheats". So Godmode would be equally as valid as, say, Spectator Mode.

 

[DaReaperMan]

We can handle the other modes in a separate CRT, any mentions of other modes are derailing from the main purpose of THIS Content Revision Thread.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We can handle the other modes in a separate CRT, any mentions of other modes are derailing from the main purpose of THIS Content Revision Thread.

How so? How is informing people of what this CRT would permit derailing? Is it not extremely relevant information?

To exclude it is to lie by omission. This is my feeling on that matter.

 

[FinePoint]

Sure, this CRT is exclusively about Creative, but the point remains that allowing Creative under these arguments would allow all other modes as well. Adventure mode I can sustain, since I suppose it is technically not possible to enter without using cheats or the Command Block, which we have a page for but the others are absolutely possible to enter without said "cheats". So Godmode would be equally as valid as, say, Spectator Mode.

You keep saying Godmode, but it's never referred to as such anywhere. You don't need to remind us your opinion is it's cheating in every single sentence. Spectating is only a byproduct of Hardcore Mode after death, it's not its own game mode. I'm pretty sure the only time you'd even see it referred to as a mode is in the console, which we're obviously not counting.

You've repeated this same argument almost verbatim several times at this point. Clearly people are not convinced it absolutely needs to be discussed right now. Hardcore mode has its own unique issues which I don't want us to be distracted with any further in this particular CRT.

So, if you bring it up again then I'm just going to have to ignore it, because this is not only derailing but becoming extremely repetitive.
Sorry.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I keep saying godmode because I have played games and I know what a godmode is. The actual name of the mode is irrelevant. I refer to it in this case because it makes a more clear image of what it is people are voting for- you are trying to put the game's in-built godmode into the profile. I'm saying it like it is.

Yes, and you keep bloody ignoring it, and then pouting about other people not acknowledging your own points. Trust me, I don't like it, either. Also, "clearly not convinced"? For the record, in terms of staff vote, this is still a rejected CRT. Kieran and Monkey are not staff with the authority to approve threads. I trust Kieran, at least, but in this scenario he is disagreeable to me.

Ignore it, then. It is still not debunked. That's not how a debate works. Regardless of the bandwagon.

 

[FinePoint]

I keep saying godmode because I have played games and I know what a godmode is. The actual name of the mode is irrelevant. I refer to it in this case because it makes a more clear image of what it is people are voting for- you are trying to put the game's in-built godmode into the profile. I'm saying it like it is.

Well, technically "godmode" just refers to being invincible. If that was the only difference in Creative Mode I wouldn't have made this CRT. It includes a lot of significant changes which I've both detailed in the OP and explained how they can be indexed. It seems like an intentional oversimplification to manipulate people's first impressions of a clearly complicated subject given this debate.

The bottom line is that not being able to be harmed by NPCs isn't necessarily a cheat in a context where fighting is not the focus. Plenty of games don't include a death and damage system at all.

Yes, and you keep bloody ignoring it, and then pouting about other people not acknowledging your own points. Trust me, I don't like it, either.

Ignore it, then. It is still not debunked. That's not how a debate works. Regardless of the bandwagon.

I do not know what you're talking about. I included an entire write-up in the OP about the exact reasons I'm not convinced regarding Adventure/Hardcore mode. I have not ignored it or you at all, I've been engaging with you as much as I can.

 

[FinePoint]

For the record, because I can sense things getting a little heated:
I really do appreciate your participation, and I'm glad that you're willing to defend your opinions.
You're a shining example of what I think a good staff member should be.
I'm sorry if you feel misrepresented, and I do want to discuss your point in even more detail in the future, I'm merely asking to postpone that discussion.

It's just that if this CRT doesn't eventually pass, then the discussion will be useless anyways, so I think it's less productive to try and multitask.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Godmode refers to a mode of a game in which you are given unreal levels of power so the game is no longer a challenge. For example, 7 Days to Die Godmode allows you to be invulnerable, fly, go through blocks, etc. So you admit this is a godmode that you're adding. Creative Mode is literally just a Godmode. A few extra bits tacked onto invulnerability, sure, but these are ultimately just game mechanics.

I don't feel misrepresented at all. I feel you're trying to twist the truth a smidge to make your point seem less unreasonable. Blocking out conversation of other gamemodes and constantly, constantly denying what Creative mode is- the aforementioned godmode discussion- that is giving me the impression that the point is the real victim of misrepresentation here. I don't like it. So I really, really do not intend to ignore the equally-as-valid gamemodes right now- they are a decent enough tool in showing precisely how silly this upgrade actually is.

Heated? I am annoyed, yes. I often grow annoyed with such shit. Especially for the hahablockgame, when the upgrade threads roll around like clockwork.

You are entitled to your own opinion. But indexing Creative mode (et al) is one of the worst things I can envision for Minecraft. The alternative modes are modifiers applied to Survival. Creative Mode is just Godmode, the same as any other game with such notions within it. Minecraft should not be an exception. Such an exception leads to a rule. Such a rule leads to a slippery slope and a lot of damn hard work to undo it later, when we realize how silly the idea is to give your average Survival Game protagonist 3-A ED due to a Godmode left in the game. That ain't a wiki I'd be proud to represent, I should hope the same goes for all of you, even if you don't see that future as the likely outcome. I do.

 

[Moritzva]

I agree with Bambu absolutely and I am amazed this somehow vanished from my notifications.

Nothing about this is a good standard to set. Many games have godmodes - and, no matter what you say, it is a godmode - and we don’t allow those. Creative Mode is not a proper part of Minecraft lore, it’s just a game mode for ******* around without worrying about zombies killing you.

Without a doubt, I disagree with the revisions.

 

[FinePoint]

Godmode refers to a mode of a game in which you are given unreal levels of power so the game is no longer a challenge. For example, 7 Days to Die Godmode allows you to be invulnerable, fly, go through blocks, etc. So you admit this is a godmode that you're adding. Creative Mode is literally just a Godmode. A few extra bits tacked onto invulnerability, sure, but these are ultimately just game mechanics.

I'm very familiar with 7 Days to Die. Its godmode requires cheats to be enabled.

I don't feel misrepresented at all. I feel you're trying to twist the truth a smidge to make your point seem less unreasonable. Blocking out conversation of other gamemodes and constantly, constantly denying what Creative mode is- the aforementioned godmode discussion- that is giving me the impression that the point is the real victim of misrepresentation here. I don't like it. So I really, really do not intend to ignore the equally-as-valid gamemodes right now- they are a decent enough tool in showing precisely how silly this upgrade actually is.

The problem is we've discussed them and determined them to be not equally as valid. Your argument makes an assumption that we've not accepted as true beforehand.

Heated? I am annoyed, yes. I often grow annoyed with such shit. Especially for the hahablockgame, when the upgrade threads roll around like clockwork.

This message makes me feel as if you have a personal grudge against Minecraft, which I shouldn't have to explain implies a strong bias.

You are entitled to your own opinion. But indexing Creative mode (et al) is one of the worst things I can envision for Minecraft. The alternative modes are modifiers applied to Survival. Creative Mode is just Godmode, the same as any other game with such notions within it. Minecraft should not be an exception. Such an exception leads to a rule. Such a rule leads to a slippery slope and a lot of damn hard work to undo it later, when we realize how silly the idea is to give your average Survival Game protagonist 3-A ED due to a Godmode left in the game. That ain't a wiki I'd be proud to represent, I should hope the same goes for all of you, even if you don't see that future as the likely outcome. I do.

Nothing about this is a good standard to set. Many games have godmodes - and, no matter what you say, it is a godmode - and we don’t allow those. Creative Mode is not a proper part of Minecraft lore, it’s just a game mode for ******* around without worrying about zombies killing you.

The goal of Creative is not ******* around, but being creative as the name implies. There's official guides to back it up as a valid way to play the game separate from cheats. The problem I have with the godmode terminology is it implies its invincibility is for the purpose of cheating, but it's more-so for the purpose of not being harrassed in a gamemode designed to facilitate creativity. We allow plenty of games where the player can't be killed.

This CRT explicitly forbids any of the cheat mechanics in the game, because no sane person is arguing for cheats in every game on this wiki. This is not precedent for any sort of cheating. Slippery slope arguments are historically bad arguments for good reason. They rely on fearmongering more than reasoning. Allowing Creative Mode, given this discussion, is nuanced enough that we absolutely do not need to change any policies.

I'm curious, if the menu was reversed, would you still be saying this?
If Creative Mode was the default, and you had the option to switch to Survival, would you then argue that Survival is just Creative Mode but harder?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Were I a pettier man, I would ask that you stop "derailing my points" for addressing something I feel is unrelated. In any case, I do feel your objection to 7 Days godmode is irrelevant- the fact that it is a godmode equal to Creative Mode suits the comparison fine. It is, of course, not the sole example, simply the one I thought of first. There's a colossal list of the things, as you are no doubt aware of.

And I think your reasons for stating they are not as valid are, frankly, bunk. Which gives the impression of cherry picking Creative Mode. I disagree with both being allowed, but choosing one over the other over points like "Creative mode has a book" is silly.

I play Minecraft regularly and hosted the VSBW Minecraft Server for a year. My only bias is for wank. Hate it with every cell in my body.

I'm sorry that my semantics have angered you so. That said, it is in fact precisely that. It is invulnerability for cheating so you do not have to deal with mobs while you are "creative" and/or "******* about". That is quite literally the exact reason for it.

It surely does not, as Creative Mode is one of them. It's just accessible without necessarily using a cheat code. This is absolutely a precedent and failure to see that implies lack of desire to do so.

If survival mode weren't in the game, sure. Not otherwise.

 

[FinePoint]

I'm going to go through old Minecraft CRT threads and contact more staff, since it seems clear existing votes aren't going to change, and AKMSama suggested I gather more input.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I’m sorry but both of your arguments doesn’t make any sense to me when you guys say

Creative Mode is just Godmode, the same as any other game with such notions within it.

Many games have godmodes - and, no matter what you say, it is a godmode - and we don’t allow those. Creative Mode is not a proper part of Minecraft lore, it’s just a game mode

To me personally it seems like you two don’t really understand what the game Minecraft is kinda… I have played it and been apart of it for years. Saying it’s like any other game and saying creative is not part of Minecraft lore is completely contradicting everything the official book, website and teams have said.

the game Minecraft isn’t any other game which is why it’s one of the most popular game there is in the world, you are meant to be able to do you what you wanna do which is stated by The official Minecraft team… so again survival mode isn’t a main game mode and if it somehow is you would need proof of that when there is already proof that creative mode is a game mode on how you play Minecraft

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I’m sorry but both of your arguments doesn’t make any sense to me when you guys say


To me personally it seems like you two don’t really understand what the game Minecraft is kinda… I have played it and been apart of it for years. Saying it’s like any other game and saying creative is not part of Minecraft lore is completely contradicting everything the official book, website and teams have said.

the game Minecraft isn’t any other game which is why it’s one of the most popular game there is in the world, you are meant to be able to you what you wanna do which is stated by The official Minecraft team… so again survival mode isn’t a main game mode and if it somehow is you would need proof of that when there is already proof that creative mode is a game mode on how you play Minecraft

I have played Minecraft literally since 2011 lol. I had it the instant it came out on Mobile and got it on Xbox 360 in 2013. After that, PC, played to 2015, stopped playing for a few years (account was still active, other people were given it), then picked it up again in 2018-2019. Recently I've played RLCraft and Pixelmon.

I know what I'm talking about. Invalidating me by attacking my knowledge of the game isn't gonna work, my friend.

 

[Moritzva]

This CRT explicitly forbids any of the cheat mechanics in the game, because no sane person is arguing for cheats in every game on this wiki. This is not precedent for any sort of cheating. Slippery slope arguments are historically bad arguments for good reason. They rely on fearmongering more than reasoning. Allowing Creative Mode, given this discussion, is nuanced enough that we absolutely do not need to change any policies.

I'm curious, if the menu was reversed, would you still be saying this?
If Creative Mode was the default, and you had the option to switch to Survival, would you then argue that Survival is just Creative Mode but harder?

I snipped some of your argument for brevity.

First off, a lot of your argument relies on conjecture as to what Creative Mode is. You claim it’s purpose is to be creative - so? How does that relate to lore? What’s the basis for it? You’ve provided no argument for such.

Second off, simply saying in the CRT that it’s not a cheat mode doesn’t make it not a cheat mode. The arguments presented are, indeed, arguing for cheats to be allowed, but simply calling it a different name.

Third, do not accuse Bambu of bias simply because he dislikes some of the revisions being made. That’s just bad faith and I don’t see how that debunks any of his points.

Fourth, dismissing the fact that an argument goes against our rules by saying it’s a slippery slope argument is both a falsehood and ignores that, no matter what you say, we don’t allow cheat modes. It doesn’t matter what you call it, if it’s a mode that allows cheats and abilities that bypass the typical mechanics of the game, it is a cheat mode.

Fifth, nobody has mentioned the menu, ever. The lore, the books, the animations, they all feature Survival Mode. There is actual evidence that Survival Mode is, indeed, the canon form of Minecraft.

No evidence has been provided that Creative Mode is a canon, story-supported form of Minecraft. If you can’t provide that evidence, then your argument has no basis.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I have played Minecraft literally since 2011 lol. I had it the instant it came out on Mobile and got it on Xbox 360 in 2013. After that, PC, played to 2015, stopped playing for a few years (account was still active, other people were given it), then picked it up again in 2018-2019. Recently I've played RLCraft and Pixelmon.

I know what I'm talking about. Invalidating me by attacking my knowledge of the game isn't gonna work, my friend.

I’m not attacking you… I’m saying it seems like you two don’t understand the game Minecraft and what it is

 

[Moritzva]

I’m sorry but both of your arguments doesn’t make any sense to me when you guys say


To me personally it seems like you two don’t really understand what the game Minecraft is kinda… I have played it and been apart of it for years. Saying it’s like any other game and saying creative is not part of Minecraft lore is completely contradicting everything the official book, website and teams have said.

the game Minecraft isn’t any other game which is why it’s one of the most popular game there is in the world, you are meant to be able to do you what you wanna do which is stated by The official Minecraft team… so again survival mode isn’t a main game mode and if it somehow is you would need proof of that when there is already proof that creative mode is a game mode on how you play Minecraft

Targeting me and my experiences with Minecraft rather than actually debunking my points is a pointless argument that I will not respect with an answer in the future.

Make an argument, don’t toss out conjecture and assumptions as to who the people arguing with you are, especially so if you are horrifically wrong - Bambu and I are Minecraft veterans and have played extensively for a very long time.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Invalidating. Not attacking. Two different words. I think you don't understand what I'm saying.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Targeting me and my experiences with Minecraft rather than actually debunking my points is a pointless argument that I will not respect with an answer in the future.

I haven’t seen one single proof of survival mode being the main game mode for Minecraft… what you are saying contradicts everything the official team and everything has said… we have brought many proof that creative mode is a game mode with how you are supposed to play it.