MHS+ Seems Too Much: Marvel Comics

[Jason_Courne]

Proportionate speed of a spider means literally nothing and in fact if taken literally would make Spider-Man Subsonic at absolute best, I rest my case that the writers had no clue what they were talking about.

Well this is Marvel, where Hawkeye, Wolverine, Deadpool, and even VENOM are rated at "average human level" in speed (I'm not kidding about Venom, "Marvel Universe A to Z" #14")

They at least demonstrated barebones knowledge of a microsecond by comparing it to a "split-instant" and putting it as "way too fast for anyone else"

Rogues tho

Ehh, it's kinda a plot point that Spidey could easily kill all of his rogues if he was angry or desperate enough (as seen in Marvel Knights or One More Day or Superior Spider-Man, or Spider-Man Last Stand or...)

Yeah nobody's debating he's faster lol, he's just not thousands of times faster

He wouldn't be a thousands times faster, the calculation only got Mach 100-200 (mostly due to the small distance moved)
At best that's only like ~40x faster, but if the street tiers get upgrade to High Hypersonic, Spidey would only be ~3x faster

Even if the Spider-Humans were rated at Mach 1200, they would only be ~20 to 240x faster

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Relativistic to Relativistic+ Spider-Man

 

[M3X_2.0]

I can see Spider-Man being MHS, from 100 to 1000 I don’t really see an issue when we’re going to upgrade the others to High Hypersonic.

Spider-Man being 5 to 10 times faster than them is fine by me. Though we’re gonna run into some issues like his rogues. Daredevil shares some rogues with him.

We will need to discuss more about this.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I’m thinking about rating Spider-Man’s speed as holding back and serious, or just holding back and “far higher when serious”

Casual: High Hypersonic
Serious (or whatever you want to call it): MHS

Spider-Sense can be whatever you guys think it is as long as we can sustain it with feats.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well this is Marvel, where Hawkeye, Wolverine, Deadpool, and even VENOM are rated at "average human level" in speed (I'm not kidding about Venom, "Marvel Universe A to Z" #14")

To me that just sounds like an argument in favor of not using any statement of speed.

They at least demonstrated barebones knowledge of a microsecond by comparing it to a "split-instant" and putting it as "way too fast for anyone else"

I mean yeah, obviously everyone knows a microsecond is a fraction of a second.

Ehh, it's kinda a plot point that Spidey could easily kill all of his rogues if he was angry or desperate enough (as seen in Marvel Knights or One More Day or Superior Spider-Man, or Spider-Man Last Stand or...)

Eehh, I don't think that really holds up when you have so much internal monologue in so many Spider-Man comics where he often admits to struggling with them. It doesn't make sense that he'd hold back speed especially when being super agile is his whole strategy.

Should Spider Sense even be considered speed? It's mainly precog.

 

[M3X_2.0]

It slows down his perception of time

 

[Armorchompy]

Fair nuff

 

[Jason_Courne]

To me that just sounds like an argument in favor of not using any statement of speed.

Realistically this is Marvel, for example Hawkeye, a normal human without any superpowers, can dodge bullets and fire his arrows at bullet speeds

Eehh, I don't think that really holds up when you have so much internal monologue in so many Spider-Man comics where he often admits to struggling with them. It doesn't make sense that he'd hold back speed especially when being super agile is his whole strategy

Well yeah we've had those internal monologues, but we've also had direct showcases that Spider-Man is simply too strong for his rogues gallery when he stops holding back

There have been both small showcases and entire plot lines where Spidey explicitly stops holding back and we see a massive difference

 

[Jason_Courne]

I’m thinking about rating Spider-Man’s speed as holding back and serious, or just holding back and “far higher when serious”

Yeah the difference is large enough to justify more than just a "far higher" rating

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Spider-Man straight up invalidating his Rogues when he becomes deadly serious does seem consistent (some notable examples being: when he one punched Green Goblin and outright said he could easily kill him, when he mopped the floor with Scorpion after the latter threatened May, or the entire Superior Spider-Man storyline).

So I agree with a higher rating for when he’s serious.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't see how the Scorpion scan proves anything given he's repeatedly dropkicking him and decking him in the face, no shit that'll hurt coming from someone on your level. It just proves he's more skilled and agile, which he totally is, but I don't see any evidence of a crushing stats advantage.

But if we're playing that game, here's Spider-Man straight-up admitting Lizard is stronger than him. Here's Spider-Man with the symbiote suit still admitting Lizard was too powerful for him to directly contend with. Here's Spider-Man explicitly saying he won't hold back against Lizard, and still losing. Sandman has four different showings of knocking out Spider-Man. Here's Vulture straight-up blitzing Spider-Man. Here's Spider-Man getting seriously hurt just from the strain of trying to contain Big Wheel's momentum and making it clear it was a herculean effort to do so. Big Wheel.

This is just off some of the few good profiles we have for Spider-Man rogues. I would be surprised if most of them didn't have as many showings given Spider-Man's love for internally monologuing about how screwed he is.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I don't see how the Scorpion scan proves anything given he's either dropkicking him and decking him in the face repeatedly, no shit that'll hurt coming from someone on your level.

But if we're playing that game, here's Spider-Man straight-up admitting Lizard is stronger than him. Here's Spider-Man with the symbiote suit still admitting Lizard was too powerful for him to directly contend with. Here's Spider-Man explicitly saying he won't hold back against Lizard, and still losing. Sandman has four different showings of knocking out Spider-Man. Here's Vulture straight-up blitzing Spider-Man. Here's Spider-Man getting hurt just by trying to contain Big Wheel's momentum and makes it clear it was a herculean effort to do so. Big Wheel.

This is just off two of the few good profiles we have for Spider-Man rogues. I would be surprised if most of them didn't have as many showings given Spider-Man's love for internally monologuing about how screwed he is.

Tbf, the Lizard and Sandman have always been practically the two strongest of Spidey's enemies a majority of the time, especially Sandman who is also Planet Level sometimes, so those two aren't thar absurd. This isn't counting Symbiotes since they literally have Spidey's stats but on crack and half of his powers.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I don't see how the Scorpion scan proves anything given he's repeatedly dropkicking him and decking him in the face, no shit that'll hurt coming from someone on your level.

Normally when Spider-Man isn't super pissed Scorpion can give him him a good run for his money despite his superior agility. So Peter being being to able to give Scorpion a one-sided beatdown when he's pissed is notable.

Also in that Lizard Imgur gallery you linked Spider-Man acknowledged he was still habitually pulling his punches despite his earlier "can't afford to hold back!" claim.

Also apparently Sandman can increase his strength and become ridiculously stronger than Spider-Man so idk about using him as an example.

 

[Armorchompy]

Normally when Spider-Man isn't super pissed Scorpion can give him him a good run for his money despite his superior agility. So Peter being being to able to give Scorpion a one-sided beatdown when he's pissed is notable.

I mean like... yeah, Spider-Man holds back, nobody's discussing that. I just disagree with the notion that he's mega-stronger than most of his rogues and could easily stomp them, but just doesn't.

Tbf, the Lizard and Sandman have always been practically the two strongest of Spidey's enemies a majority of the time, especially Sandman who is also Planet Level sometimes, so those two aren't thar absurd. This isn't counting Symbiote's since they literally have Spidey's stats but on crack and half of his powers.

Also in that Lizard Imgur gallery you linked Spider-Man acknowledged he was still habitually pulling his punches despite his earlier "can't afford to hold back!" claim.

Also apparently Sandman can increase his strength and become ridiculously stronger than Spider-Man so idk about using him as an example.

Fair point regarding pulling his punches, but like, if he's trying to go all-out and still getting hit you can't really say they aren't relative in speed, it just doesn't make any sense. Especially considering the other scans are pretty unambiguous.

Also yeah Sandman is definitely one of the strongest which is why I didn't list his examples individually

But like, if we're arguing that then we can say something like "Goblin almost always relies on gadgets, so it makes sense that he's physically inferior", and indeed he has generally been treated as such. But stuff like destroying Rhino with sheer strength (which he has done) is just, blatantly an outlier.

Just looking around some respect threads, here's Spider-Man admitting he's scared shitless of Rhino and blatantly implies he's way stronger than him, all while getting his ass beat. Here's Spider-Man admitting Rhino is comparable in speed to him. Here's Spider-Man admitting Goblin is faster than him on his glider. Here's Spider-Man getting blitzed by the Glider. Here's Spider-Man admitting Doctor Octopus is comparable in both speed and strength to him. Here's Spider-Man shocked and tagged by an upgraded Doc Ock's speed. Here's Spider-Man sensing Kraven behind him but not dodging because "he's too fast". Here's Kraven dislocating Spider-Man's shoulder with one attack and getting his sternum shattered right afterwards but hey no one's saying Spider-Man can't fight back. Here's Morbius moving so fast Spider-Man can't follow him. Here's Black Cat (before she'd get her superpowers) attacking so fast Spider-Man can't dodge. Here's Spider-Man admitting he's very unlikely to defeat Hydro-Man. Here's... a Respect Thread with all its links dead, so take it as you will, but there's some stuff that would definitely fit in here, judging by descriptions. Here's Tombstone shrugging off a fall that nearly knocks out Spider-Man, who has just punched him hard enough to hurt himself to no avail. Here's Spider-Man hurting himself on Tombstone again. Here's Tombstone attacking so fast that even with the Spider-Sense, Spider-Man can't dodge. Here's pre-amp Hammerhead giving Spidey a nearly debilitating injury with a headbutt. Here's a silly cat to make sure you're paying attention. Here's pre-amp Hammerhead moving faster than Spider-Man expects and knocking him out. [Hammerhead's face obviously is impenetrable to Spider-Man's attacks but it's adamantium so I feel like no one will disagree with that]. Here's Mr. Negative, with his defenses down, getting hit by an "all or nothing" punch from Spider-Man and while hurt, he doesn't even fall. Here's Spider-Man admitting Molten Man is almost as fast as him. Here's Molten Man injuring Spider-Man so badly he nearly blacks out with one attack. Here's Spider-Man attacking "as hard as ever" and still failing to damage Molten Man.

There's so so many more occasions in which they simply kick his ass that I'm not listing because I didn't think they were notable enough, keep in mind. Also I didn't include people like Morlun or Symbiote dudes cause I don't think anyone will disagree that they're on his level or higher. That reminds me I should revise some Spider-Man villains some of these days. Could be fun.

Not directly related to the above, but Spider-Man's spider-sense makes him dodge instinctually and he has to actively try to suppress it, so really any evidence of anything tagging him shouldn't be hand-waved with "he's holding back".

 

[Jason_Courne]

Just looking around some respect threads, here's Spider-Man admitting he's scared shitless of Rhino and blatantly implies he's way stronger than him, all while getting his ass beat. Here's Spider-Man admitting Rhino is comparable in speed to him. Here's Spider-Man admitting Goblin is faster than him on his glider. Here's Spider-Man getting blitzed by the Glider. Here's Spider-Man admitting Doctor Octopus is comparable in both speed and strength to him. Here's Spider-Man shocked and tagged by an upgraded Doc Ock's speed. Here's Spider-Man sensing Kraven behind him but not dodging because "he's too fast". Here's Kraven dislocating Spider-Man's shoulder with one attack and getting his sternum shattered right afterwards but hey no one's saying Spider-Man can't fight back. Here's Morbius moving so fast Spider-Man can't follow him. Here's Black Cat (before she'd get her superpowers) attacking so fast Spider-Man can't dodge. Here's Spider-Man admitting he's very unlikely to defeat Hydro-Man. Here's... a Respect Thread with all its links dead, so take it as you will, but there's some stuff that would definitely fit in here, judging by descriptions. Here's Tombstone shrugging off a fall that nearly knocks out Spider-Man, who has just punched him hard enough to hurt himself to no avail. Here's Spider-Man hurting himself on Tombstone again. Here's Tombstone attacking so fast that even with the Spider-Sense, Spider-Man can't dodge. Here's pre-amp Hammerhead giving Spidey a nearly debilitating injury with a headbutt. Here's a silly cat to make sure you're paying attention. Here's pre-amp Hammerhead moving faster than Spider-Man expects and knocking him out. [Hammerhead's face obviously is impenetrable to Spider-Man's attacks but it's adamantium so I feel like no one will disagree with that]. Here's Mr. Negative, with his defenses down, getting hit by an "all or nothing" punch from Spider-Man and while hurt, he doesn't even fall. Here's Spider-Man admitting Molten Man is almost as fast as him. Here's Molten Man injuring Spider-Man so badly he nearly blacks out with one attack. Here's Spider-Man attacking "as hard as ever" and still failing to damage Molten Man.

But most of those are "casual" Spider-Man (save for Mr Negative which is most likely an outlier)

Also in the first Molten Man scan, Peter directly says his punches simply slip off of Molten Man's skin, so his full power punch doesn't matter

 

[Armorchompy]

But most of those are "casual" Spider-Man

They're really not lol, it's not a power level that's being actively restricted (in fact the instinct thing i posted proves the opposite), it's just pulling your punches so you don't accidentally hit with too much force and punch their jaw off. It doesn't make any sense for Spider-Man to hold back his speed but it makes even less to say he can't just move at full speed whenever he wants.

As for Molten Man, it's literally just metal, it wouldn't play that much of a role, it's not like he can't be hurt. But even if it did that's literally one thing.

 

[Jason_Courne]

They're really not lol, it's not a power level that's being actively restricted (in fact the instinct thing i posted proves the opposite), it's just pulling your punches so you don't accidentally hit with too much force and punch their jaw off. It doesn't make any sense for Spider-Man to hold back his speed but it makes even less to say he can't just move at full speed whenever he wants.

We do actually know he holds back his speed to a large degree, granted it's not as obvious as his physical strength

As for Molten Man, it's literally just metal, it wouldn't play that much of a role, it's not like he can't be hurt. But even if it did that's literally one thing.

While that's a realistic thought, Spidey outright says he simply can't get clean blows on Molten Man

 

[Armorchompy]

We do actually know he holds back his speed to a large degree, granted it's not as obvious as his physical strength

That literally just shows he's fast, nothing about holding back. Had Kraven's children even fought him relevantly before?

Also even if he was holding back his speed, he has Spider-Sense to warn him of an attack ahead of time he literally has no reason at all to stop "holding back" his speed and dodge as fast as he can, and he clearly isn't holding it back given most of these are worded as "I couldn't dodge it", not "oh I could it would just require me to go all out", it literally.

Several (most, honestly) of these scans make literally no sense at all if viewed under the lens of "he's holding back", there's no way around it. Like the first one where he admits he thinks he has very little chance against Rhino and is genuinely afraid of him, and says most of his previous victories against him were sheer luck or preparation. I dunno how the **** you reconcile that with "oh but if he went all out he could take him easy". So unless you're willing to go through each of them individually and explain how it can make sense for Spider-Man to not be going all out in them, especially in speed (or in the cases of internal monologue, somehow not even consider going all-out), I don't think your arguments have any weight.

While that's a realistic thought, Spidey outright says he simply can't get clean blows on Molten Man

Ok, even if that's gonna lessen the impact by such an enormous margin (which isn't necessarily what's happening, it's probably just part that and part durability), but he also admits Molten Man is hurting him a lot so like, that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Jason_Courne]

That literally just shows he's fast, nothing about holding back. Had Kraven's children even fought him relevantly before?

Yes multiple of them have fought/interacted with him before

Several (most, honestly) of these scans make literally no sense at all if viewed under the lens of "he's holding back", there's no way around it. Like the first one where he admits he thinks he has very little chance against Rhino and is genuinely afraid of him, and says most of his previous victories against him were sheer luck or preparation. I dunno how the **** you reconcile that with "oh but if he went all out he could take him easy". So unless you're willing to go through each of them individually and explain how it can make sense for Spider-Man to not be going all out in them, especially in speed (or in the cases of internal monologue, somehow not even consider going all-out), I don't think your arguments have any weight.

It makes sense because Spider-Man isn't going to kill his enemies

We've seen Spider-Man in bloodlusted scenarios where he completely stomps his rogues gallery on multiple occasions

Ok, even if that's gonna lessen the impact by such an enormous margin (which isn't necessarily what's happening, it's probably just part that and part durability), but he also admits Molten Man is hurting him a lot so like, that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

He outright says Molten Man's skin deflected his best blow, he's saying he simply can't punch Molten Man

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes multiple of them have fought/interacted with him before

Scans? Cause if they think it's impossible for him to dodge a 1200 m/s bullet then that's a massive anti-feat, given they should be able to do so themselves very easily. Or it just means the whole scene is PIS.

It makes sense because Spider-Man isn't going to kill his enemies

I'm not going to repeat myself. These scans are specifically picked to not fall under the umbrella of "oh he's just holding back, that's why he's not winning". Either try to explain the rationality behind him failing to win in those situations (which would absolutely not "kill his enemies") or drop this generic appeal that doesn't fit the situation.

Spider-Man pulling his punches should only apply to his AP, not his speed or durability. It's not some magical means of restricting his power, it's not even him lowering his strength to protect his surroundings like we assume Thor-level people to do. It's literally just choosing to not hit as hard, it makes zero sense for it to affect his other stats, LS aside I guess.

We've seen Spider-Man in bloodlusted scenarios where he completely stomps his rogues gallery on multiple occasions

Less occasions than the evidence I've brought here, unfortunately. Unless you're arguing Spider-Man doesn't know his own strength at all, his internal monologue is just as viable as any showing (which I've also brought plenty of).

 

[Kachon123]

Ima get back to calcing the rest of the Moon Knight feats.

 

[Armorchompy]

Why the hell are we even talking about Spider-Man anyways?

 

[Dalesean027]

Why the hell are we even talking about Spider-Man anyways?

Assuming because he is consistently faster than everyone who we'll have at High Hypersonic so I think that's why the whole MHS discussion for him is a thing

 

[M3X_2.0]

The issue is how Spider-Man should be rated. He is faster than everyone to the point of having a new rating like MHS. But sometimes everyone keeps up with him.

We need to solve that.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Scans? Cause if they think it's impossible for him to dodge a 1200 m/s bullet then that's a massive anti-feat, given they should be able to do so themselves very easily. Or it just means the whole scene is PIS.

I mean I'd kinda have to dig through a bunch of the old comics but
Alexei Kravinoff first appeared in Spectacular Spider-Man #243
Vladimir Kravinoff first appeared in Spider-Man #47
Anatasia Kravinoff first appeared in Amazing Spider-Man #565

Not to mention they had fought Kaine in the same run (which might imply Peter is swifter and stronger than his clones)

Tbf they think it's impossible for Spider-Man to dodge a bullet because they think he is only a bullet timer, and have never seen the true extent of his physical capabilities (that and they thought they had element of suprise)

I'm not going to repeat myself. These scans are specifically picked to not fall under the umbrella of "oh he's just holding back, that's why he's not winning". Either try to explain the rationality behind him failing to win in those situations (which would absolutely not "kill his enemies") or drop this generic appeal that doesn't fit the situation.

We've seen that just because Spider-Man says he is going all out, doesn't mean he is actually going all out

Well when Octavius took over Peter's body, and accidentally removed all subconcious restraints, he accidentally punched off the Scorpion's jaw, and although it was unarmored, Scorpion is still a superhuman enhanced individual with the proportional stats of a scorpion
And we see in the directly parallel Last Stand universe, Spidey would have no difficulty killing his opponents

But there are also standalone scenarios where we've seen Spidey nearly crush Goblin's skull after being shot to hell and back, or just the pure ass-beating Rhino got in the Marvel Knights storyline
And speaking of Rhino after the death of Captain America storyline he was capable of knocking him out in one blow (Rhino was as blood lusted as humanely possible)

If he has that level of strength he would obviously hold back in fear of one tap killing his enemies, which is why he gets his ass kicked so often, he has placed so many mental locks on his power that he can't access it even if he wanted to

Less occasions than the evidence I've brought here, unfortunately. Unless you're arguing Spider-Man doesn't know his own strength at all, his internal monologue is just as viable as any showing (which I've also brought plenty of).

Like I said those are casual Spider-Man, and even then when he says he is "going all out", he still can't actually release all of that power

 

[Armorchompy]

Tbf they think it's impossible for Spider-Man to dodge a bullet because they think he is only a bullet timer, and have never seen the true extent of his physical capabilities (that and they thought they had element of suprise)

The definition of being a bullet timer is being capable of easily dodging bullets... If they're Hypersonic or whatever they should be capable of easily doing that themselves to the fastest of bullets, even.

We've seen that just because Spider-Man says he is going all out, doesn't mean he is actually going all out

That's in regards to AP. Other stats remain unexplained. Which is something I've brought up repeatedly and am tired of passing unaddressed.

Well when Octavius took over Peter's body, and accidentally removed all subconcious restraints, he accidentally punched off the Scorpion's jaw, and although it was unarmored, Scorpion is still a superhuman enhanced individual with the proportional stats of a scorpion.

Scorpion is always weaker than Spidey, you really shouldn't give the proportional stats thing any credit (and even if you did, scorpions are bigger, ergo lower proportional stats)

And we see in the directly parallel Last Stand universe, Spidey would have no difficulty killing his opponents

We don't use parallel universes.

But there are also standalone scenarios where we've seen Spidey nearly crush Goblin's skull after being shot to hell and back, or just the pure ass-beating Rhino got in the Marvel Knights storyline

Not at all a showing of superiority, he's just ramming him into walls repeatedly with the Glider's own strength. At best you can argue LS but he's got a positional advantage.

If he has that level of strength he would obviously hold back in fear of one tap killing his enemies, which is why he gets his ass kicked so often, he has placed so many mental locks on his power that he can't access it even if he wanted to

He mentions he's specifically unable to hit hard because he knows Curtis personally, I dunno how you're getting that it's a universal block out of that when it's specifically the opposite (and he clearly can access his full power given that he has used it on occasion lmao). If anything the whole thing shows he's very willing to try to go all out when the going gets rough.

Like I said those are casual Spider-Man, and even then when he says he is "going all out", he still can't actually release all of that power

No they're not, Spider-Man realizing an attack is coming thanks to Spider-Man and still going "oh no he's too fast to dodge" isn't a casual showing, it's him admitting he couldn't dodge the ******* attacks (especially given Spider-Sense gives him ample time to get in the right mindset). Spider-Man explicitly admitting to himself someone is as fast or as strong as him (or stronger/faster) doesn't come with "... as long as I'm holding back!" remark, it's an absolute statement of inferiority/comparability.

You can keep saying "oh it's casual" but if you refuse to address the actual workings of it it will continue to not hold any weight, and repeating it ad nauseam won't change it, especially if you continue to refuse addressing parts of my argument.

 

[KLOL506]

The issue is how Spider-Man should be rated. He is faster than everyone to the point of having a new rating like MHS. But sometimes everyone keeps up with him.

We need to solve that.

Bringing Spider-Man here was a mistake. He should've been dealt with in his own new thread.

 

[Armorchompy]

For the record, I can agree with Spider-Man having some form of Rage Power, I think that's reasonably consistent, but that is different from holding back (which he does, just not to a degree where he could stomp his rogues easily), and it would only affect AP/LS, probably not dura and definitely not speed, at least not by any significant amount.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Wouldn't it be better then to make the new changes for the Street tiers (High Hypersonic), close the thread and then make a new thread for Spider-Man and those who can scale from him?

 

[Armorchompy]

i don't wanna do this for a whole ass thread

 

[Jason_Courne]

The definition of being a bullet timer is being capable of easily dodging bullets... If they're Hypersonic or whatever they should be capable of easily doing that themselves to the fastest of bullets, even.

Yes but bullet timers can still sometimes get tagged by bullets, often by suprise or through sheer numbers of bullets

That's in regards to AP. Other stats remain unexplained. Which is something I've brought up repeatedly and am tired of passing unaddressed.

But as shown in Grim Hunt with the Kravinoffs, he also holds back his speed
Also (it's an outlier but still), as shown when he fought Firelord, he can kick his speed up significantly to overwhelm opponents he couldn't stand a chance against normally

Scorpion is always weaker than Spidey, you really shouldn't give the proportional stats thing any credit (and even if you did, scorpions are bigger, ergo lower proportional stats)

Scorpion is still extremely superhuman, is frequently stated superhuman, and has accomplished multiple superhuman feats without his armor

But Superior Spidey just... punched his face off by accident, now imagine if Spidey accidentally did that to a generic mugger

We don't use parallel universes.

Yes, but no
While it is indeed a parallel universe, it is treated as a direct result should Peter kill Kravin shown to him by Madame Web

Not at all a showing of superiority, he's just ramming him into walls repeatedly with the Glider's own strength. At best you can argue LS but he's got a positional advantage.

He's effortlessly restraining Gobby, and nearly killed him in the process

He mentions he's specifically unable to hit hard because he knows Curtis personally, I dunno how you're getting that it's a universal block out of that when it's specifically the opposite (and he clearly can access his full power given that he has used it on occasion lmao). If anything the whole thing shows he's very willing to try to go all out when the going gets rough.

But it also shows he mentally cannot

No they're not, Spider-Man realizing an attack is coming thanks to Spider-Man and still going "oh no he's too fast to dodge" isn't a casual showing, it's him admitting he couldn't dodge the ******* attacks (especially given Spider-Sense gives him ample time to get in the right mindset). Spider-Man explicitly admitting to himself someone is as fast or as strong as him (or stronger/faster) doesn't come with "... as long as I'm holding back!" remark, it's an absolute statement of inferiority/comparability.

It's not him actually blood lusted or pissed off though, so it's not him going all out

Spidey could only be talking about his average strength / speed, because we KNOW Spidey holds back constantly, even against his foes like Scorpion or Doctor Octopus

 

[M3X_2.0]

Bringing Spider-Man here was a mistake. He should've been dealt with in his own new thread.

Really was a mistake to bring a Marvel character to a Marvel thread

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes but bullet timers can still sometimes get tagged by bullets, often by suprise or through sheer numbers of bullets

This is a lot of very vague statements based on a single ambiguous showing, I wouldn't give it any weight.

But as shown in Grim Hunt with the Kravinoffs, he also holds back his speed

I see no evidence of that.

Also (it's an outlier but still), as shown when he fought Firelord, he can kick his speed up significantly to overwhelm opponents he couldn't stand a chance against normally

It's a massive outlier that shouldn't even be considered, yes, either you're saying he can be MFTL+ or it holds no weight at all.

Or heralds are actually not MFTL+ but this isn't the thread for that

Scorpion is still extremely superhuman, is frequently stated superhuman, and has accomplished multiple superhuman feats without his armor

Ok? I'm aware of that, but there's plenty of superhuman 8-Cs and 9-Bs. Given he needs the armor to stand a chance against Spider-Man this means very little.

But Superior Spidey just... punched his face off by accident, now imagine if Spidey accidentally did that to a generic mugger

??? You don't need to tell me he holds back lol.

Yes, but no
While it is indeed a parallel universe, it is treated as a direct result should Peter kill Kravin shown to him by Madame Web

Means very little to me given I don't know how he'd be killing him.

He's effortlessly restraining Gobby, and nearly killed him in the process

The Glider's strength nearly killed him, not Spider-Man. Nothing says the restraining is "effortless" and I think it's fair to say that even while holding back Spider-Man is generally stronger than Goblin, and breaking away from someone who's holding you from behind is nearly impossible even if you're equal. This shows nothing.

But it also shows he mentally cannot

In this specific case he cannot, yes. It says absolutely nothing in regards to whether he generally can. In fact if anything it hints that normally he could.

It's not him actually blood lusted or pissed off though, so it's not him going all out

Why does he need to be those things to go all out lol? He's one of the smartest people on the planet and possibly the universe, do you think he cannot make a strategical decision to use all of his strength/speed when in danger?

Spidey could only be talking about his average strength / speed, because we KNOW Spidey holds back constantly, even against his foes like Scorpion or Doctor Octopus

Yes he could be, if we were to make a mostly baseless assumption that makes absolutely no sense in context and actively doesn't work when paired up with the dialogue. Alternatively, he could also not be.

Also Doctor Octopus is literally just an out of shape powerless middle aged dude, no shit he holds back while punching him.

 

[Armorchompy]

Anyways if you need another anti-feat, Blade has fought a vampirized Spider-Man (who in addition to obviously not holding back being reduced to a hungry animal, would also be faster than normal) and beat him. There's another instance of this where Spider-Man only regains his mental faculties after being slugged hard enough, although it's a bit more ambiguous.

 

[KLOL506]

Really was a mistake to bring a Marvel character to a Marvel thread

No shit.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Ok at this point the it's getting a little too out of hand, and this is probably better for a separate CRT

This is a lot of very vague statements based on a single ambiguous showing, I wouldn't give it any weight.

I see no evidence of that.

I don't really think it's vague, bullet timers can still get tagged by bullets

The kravinoffs have fought Spidey multiple times before but when enraged he is too fast for them, faster than they thought he was

It's a massive outlier that shouldn't even be considered, yes, either you're saying he can be MFTL+ or it holds no weight at all.

It's an outlier scaling wise, he doesn't scale to heralds or maybe he does cuz comics
But it is a showcase of him significantly increasing his speed when he stops holding back

Ok? I'm aware of that, but there's plenty of superhuman 8-Cs and 9-Bs. Given he needs the armor to stand a chance against Spider-Man this means very little.

??? You don't need to tell me he holds back lol.

It shows that Spider-Man could easily kill all of his rogues (even by accident should he drop all subconcious barriers)
also iirc the Scorpion armor only amps his durability

This shows the sheer gap between Spidey and his rogues

Means very little to me given I don't know how he'd be killing him.

He does it through various means, but with seemingly no forms of specilized weaponry (it seems like he specifically beats Goblin to death with his bare hands)

In this specific case he cannot, yes. It says absolutely nothing in regards to whether he generally can. In fact if anything it hints that normally he could.

Why does he need to be those things to go all out lol? He's one of the smartest people on the planet and possibly the universe, do you think he cannot make a strategical decision to use all of his strength/speed when in danger?

Because those times are the secnario's where he is actually going all out

We have seen his REAL strength is too much even for his stronger rogues to handle, if he's one of the smartest people in the universe, then he would know his full strength is simply too much to use

Yes he could be, if we were to make a mostly baseless assumption that makes absolutely no sense in context and actively doesn't work when paired up with the dialogue. Alternatively, he could also not be.

In context we know Spider-Man holds back his full strength

 

[M3X_2.0]

Can we focus on how to solve the Spider-Man issue?

 

[M3X_2.0]

I was thinking, we either scale Spider-Man as faster than everyone with a new rating or scale him above everyone, but the same rating, showing that some characters are still comparable.

One of the two should be ignored, as in, ignoring the scaling.

 

[KLOL506]

I think in lack of better options I am forced to take the former.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think it's pretty obvious he cannot be massively faster. I can agree with a higher rating as long as it's only by a couple of times though.