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Mewtwo vs. Gremmy Thoumeaux

LordAizenSama said:
@Professor Didn't he just teleport and erase their memory? I'm pretty sure that was what happened.
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Some believe that but I (personally at least) think it was time reversion because if he just simply erased their memories and teleported them, then the people back at the Pokemon center who all the trainers were at wouldve noticed and even got startled by their sudden entrance back into the center. Plus they would have been asking questions on where they went, how they got back, and what actually happened. The only way to ignore this if Mewtwo also erased the memories of the people in the Pokemon Center (which their wouldnt be any memories as they didnt do anything relevant), which there is no way of proving at all.

In addition to this, after Mewtwo did what he did, all of them were placed back into their exact same spots and posistions like they were before they left the center. There is no way Mewtwo would have known about that and got it perfectly presise with just Teleportation alone.
 
If Mewtwo can time travel beforehand, can't he just ravel back in time and take over the world in that case? I would watch the movie but I'm in no position to watch it right now. And there really isn't a reason to prove anything but rather to reason it out. Which is the more likely scenario in this case? Mewtwo has certainly not been shown any capability to time travel before or after the movie or in game, with that feat coming to other pokemons (Dialga comes to mind). So I find it muc more likely for him to have an ability to teleport others alongside the mind wipe thing.

Wasn't Mewtwo watching them from the start in the beginning anyway? Kidnapped Nurse Joy beforehand? Also if he had time travel or just undid everything then why were the cloned pokemons still there? I'm sure there would be no reason for them to exist if he could reverse time.
 
But it wasnt time travel. It was Time Reversion. There is actually a difference between the 2.

If taken at face value Mewtwo wouldnt be traveling through time, he'd just be reversing it.
 
I meant Time revision, if I said Time travel my bad, got caught up with the others who said time travel. Either way my point still stands. And I still find it unlikely. That would be such a great ability that even the pokedex wouldn't miss it or at least it would be credited or even used against Mew.
 
LordAizenSama said:
@PaChi He may just want to get rid of Mewtwo also. It was Zaraki he was fighting afterall

@COB Yes, you are right
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That is why I said that if it was Gremmy with thr same mentality he fought Zaraki with, he would have a really hard time. If he uses his powers in a sensible way, he wins, yeah.
 
Well since Mewtwo was literally just born in that movie I doubt the Pokedex would have time to add it in. Plus again Mewtwo didnt want to take over the world, he only wanted to make a world for him and his clones. If he reversed time to a point beyond the time of cloning then he wouldnt be capable of doing that.

Also again, if it was just mind wiping + teleportation then why didnt the people at the Pokemon Center get startled by their sudden appearence into the center? Along with asking questios like where did you go or what happened? Plus considering the time that Nurse Joy was gone, for her to just instantly pop up with a bunch of strangers would have surely gotten them some questions and possibly even trouble for potentially kidnapping a Pokemon nurse.
 
Fair enough but there are still cases that that would have helped him much much more if he did have the power.

Simple, he also changed their minds. That's the more likely scenario in this case.
 
Possibly but like mentioned above, its CIS and PIS that banned that until the end. Otherwise there'd be no plot if Mewtwo could just reverse time and make the world he wants without the slightest amount of resistance (which I still doubt btw).

There is no way in proving that. Besides, why would he want to erase the memories of those who had no relavant part in the movie? All they did was worry about the storm. There's no notable memories for them to have erased unlike Ash and the others who do.
 
Also, now that I think about it, is this battle taking out the possiblity of Mewtwo just erasing Gremmy's memories? Despite the huge risk that could come out of the Visonary I don't see whats stopping Mewtwo from just erasing his memories and therefore erases any memory on how to use his powers or even what his powers really are. Then Gremmy will be powerless and Mewtwo can just eradicate him as without the Visonary Gremmy is no remote threat to Mewtwo.
 
It's only CIS or PIS if we're absolutely sure he had those abilities in the first place. Like before it's more likely that he doesn't have the power on the first place.

Because Mewtwo is smart enough to figure "Hey, those guys just saw me putting those guys there. I better make sure they don't know and everything's fine so that there won't be any confusion."
 
I'm gonna quote a certain someone in here

LordAizenSama said:
That's not my question. It was: "When has Mewtwo started a fight, instantly read their mind and mindhaxed them?"
Sounds more like CIS than PIS, because i'm fairly certain he never uses his mental powers offensively in a battle. Pride? Stupidity? Who knows. But it is a character flaw like Gremmys.

Also as far as i'm aware he cannot manipulate time. If so i'd be glad to get a source on that

You see, what you're doing, is instantly putting Mewtwo in a best case scenario, where he makes all the correct choices, ignoring the fact that hes in character, and will just make all the right moves in battle whilst Gremmy makes all the wrong ones.

The only reason this fight is not a outright stomp is because Gremmy tends to not make the right choices.

Imagine what would happen if I took your approach (No Pun Intended)

"Gremmy imagines Mewtwo is dead,Or that he didn't exist in the first place, Gremmy uses Vanishing point and Erases His presence from the world then kills Mewtwo, Gremmy erases Mewtwos power, Gremmy turns Mewtwos body into cookies, Gremmy BFRs Mewtwo into Far out Space, Gremmy Imagines 10 Mewtwos to fight Mewtwo."

Well i'm sure you get the picture.
Click to expand...
 
Oh and Gremmy definitely has the power to seal other beings' power, from what we seen him did to what he created. Cutting him off from his Mega invsiibility so that's not stopping him from shutting down someone's power either.
 
CoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
It's only CIS or PIS if we're absolutely sure he had those abilities in the first place. Like before it's more likely that he doesn't have the power on the first place.
Because Mewtwo is smart enough to figure "Hey, those guys just saw me putting those guys there. I better make sure they don't know and everything's fine so that there won't be any confusion."
Click to expand...
I dont see why he wouldnt have it. Its very likely he believed he didnt even need to use it til the end given no one else except for Mew could even oppose Mewtwo. Before Mew ever came Mewtwo was literally in control of everything and would have been too.

How would they see him? All he'd need to do is just teleport them from a distance. He doesnt need to be in the same vecinity as they are to do so. Besides, even if he was no one else besides the group who went to his island even knows what kind of Pokemon he is or where he came from so it isnt like they can do much of anything.

As for the sealing part, Mewtwo is also capable of sealing off moves. In the movie he was able to disable (not the literal move disable btw) all of the pokemons special powers and abilities using his psychic powers to the point where they couldnt use any moves period against their clones. And he was able to even do this while simuntaeoulsly fighting mew. Gremmy definitely has no resistance to Psychic or Mind hax so whats stopping Mewtwo from just sealing his use of the Visonary and other abilities and then blow his head off?
 
Then why didn't he use it before to better prepare himself for Mew? Because that's a pretty stupid move in my part if that was the case. Even if it was pride that's not just something you can chalk up to PIS or CIS.... That's dreaming and grabbing onto a strand of hope that he has time travel when he only showed using it once and never again on any other movie or game or whatnot.

Alright, change of wordings "Oh hey, those guys just saw those guys pop up and are confused and they might give away my identity or something. I better make sure their mind is erased too." But like I said once I watch the movie again I'll give my judgement since I'm in no state to do it right now.

Because the first time Gremmy showed up against someone claiming not to be overpowered or OP like an idiot (Kenpachi) he chose to be invisible and even untouchable before A) killing one of them off by making them cease to exist B) just with a word instantly killing two people and C) turned someone's bones into cookies while casually dodging them without even seeing them. And I doubt precog can protect Mewtwon from just suddenly being affected from those traits so easily with the exception of the latter. And the fact that Gremmy could equally seal his power?
 
Possibly. I find it doubtful since Mewtwo wasn't a perfect clone. Either way it shouldn't really affect the grand scheme of things since Gremmy can detect reiatsu.
 
Isn't reiatsu basically soul ki? I don't see how Mewtwo would have a soul, given that he's an artificial being.
 
It's more like detecting the disturbance in the soul ki being released I suppose. Then again it would end up as an eternal hide and seek if that's the case.
 
Because he wasnt expecting Mew's arrival? Mew being mixed up was rather by chance and it surprised everyone, including Mewtwo. He wasnt preparing for Mew at all. Also, using the game argument isnt really fair especially when Mewtwo doesnt have any special plot in them like other legendaries do to show off his power outside of game mechanics. And other movies involve different Mewtwo who dont have the same abilities.

I dont see how random people poping in would blow away Mewtwo's cover, especially when the humans he has interacted with no longer remember him and everyone else in the center has never met or even heard of him. But alright i'll give you the fair chance.

Forgive me but what is the last part supposed to mean? I dont see how in any that it prevents Mewtwo from either A.) Erasing Gremmys memories so that he has no rememberence of his power or what it is, thus will not be able to use it in the rest of the battle or B.) Just block his powers using Mewtwo's psychic powers like he did the other pokemon and just blow Gremmy's head off.
 
UltimateInferno said:
Gremmy's power is literally just that everything he imagines come to life.
What memories do you need to use it???
Click to expand...
Uh, how about the secret to the technique? If his memories were erased he wouldnt even know what the Visonary is or what it does or what requirements (Small but still) to activate it. And by the time he does so (assuming he can without outside assistance), Mewtwo would have already finished him off.

And with Gremmy already having the IQ of a walnut, him figuring out how to use his power after that knowledged has been wiped clean is extremely doubtful.
 
Also with all due respect, the reasoning for Gremmy winning is very flawed.

Its going under the assumption that Gremmy will actually use his powers the right way when 95% out of 100 that will likely not happen. The more expected result is Gremmy f***ing himself up (excuse my language please) with his own powers without Mewtwo even needing to do anything.

And with all the other options Mewtwo has that are stated above, I really do not see how Gremmy stands that much of a chance when the only chance he has of beating Mewtwo is very slim at best.
 
I think it's actually:

Mewtwo: 3 (Omegagoldfish, PaChi2 [I think he did so because of Gremmy being in character], ProfessorKukui4Life)

Gremmy: 5 (Amlad22, COB, Yomi Schwarz, LordAizenSama, Cropfist)

@Howard

Are you voting for anyone?
 
Given how both characters act (Gremmy being an idiot just throwing out his stuff; mewtwo being mewtwo), I'd say that Mewtwo after realizing Gremmy's potential power gets serious really fast and begins to mindfuck the shit outta Gremmy.

The way Gremmy does things makes it really apparent it's reality warping (creating stuff from thin air, manipulating surroundings as weapons, etc), which Mewtwo can easily figure out. Once Mewtwo understands that all of Gremmy's stuff comes from his mind, it's really easy to mindfuck and win.

TDLR: Mewtwo figures out how reality warping works and obliterates Gremmy's mind, neutralizing a threat and winning at the same time.

If both started out completely bloodlusted and cutting all CIS & related stuff, Gremmy would probably stomp.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Because he wasnt expecting Mew's arrival? Mew being mixed up was rather by chance and it surprised everyone, including Mewtwo. He wasnt preparing for Mew at all. Also, using the game argument isnt really fair especially when Mewtwo doesnt have any special plot in them like other legendaries do to show off his power outside of game mechanics. And other movies involve different Mewtwo who dont have the same abilities.
I dont see how random people poping in would blow away Mewtwo's cover, especially when the humans he has interacted with no longer remember him and everyone else in the center has never met or even heard of him. But alright i'll give you the fair chance.

Forgive me but what is the last part supposed to mean? I dont see how in any that it prevents Mewtwo from either A.) Erasing Gremmys memories so that he has no rememberence of his power or what it is, thus will not be able to use it in the rest of the battle or B.) Just block his powers using Mewtwo's psychic powers like he did the other pokemon and just blow Gremmy's head off.
Click to expand...
I concede on this, alright then. It's very simple to add in a time based ability in the game even as just a move. There are different Mewtwoes? Pardon me, did not know that. Either way it's a very debatable ability in the end.

Because there's suspicion on that activity. That's about it. And I doubt Mewtwo is one to make loose ends here.

Because you're aiming for the best startup scenario for Mewtwo as if he's going to do all that in the beginning.... Meanwhile... Gremmy before Kenpachi showed up was actually competent enough to easily kill numerous powerful people at once without care. He only acted stupid when someone tried to claim he's stronger than him. And is Mewtwo gonna be stupid enough to do that? No. Chances are Gremmy is going to seize Mewtwo up, and do either of the three to instantly kill him.

Simple.
 
@COB

Gremmy has a habit of playing with his food before he eats it, regardless of whether whatever he's fighting against appears to be a threat or not.

Besides, Mewtwo isn't cannon fodder; Gremmy would probably toy with Mewtwo before going in for a kill... which by then Mewtwo will have already figured Gremmy out, going for a swift kill while Gremmy's trying to figure out how can he set up a amusing end for Mewtwo.
 
@Ghostly Owns

The only time he played with his food was with Kenpachi, who broke his well expectations and ideology and kept claiming he was the strongest out loud like a shonen main character. He certainly wasn't playing with his food when he

A) Made someone cease to exist

B) Killed two people at once to show off

C) Turned Yachiru's bones into cookies and was all but set to destroy her till Kenny luckily arrive.

He wanted to break Kenpachi's spirit because there was no one else like him. Like the same feeling as if you feel like shooting someone isn't just right and want to beat the crap out of them first before so you can really prove who's the strongest.

Unless Mewtwo is spouting out "I'M THE STRONGEST!!" Like Kenpachi is I doubt Gremmy would be interested in taking him on like Kenny.
 
And don't give me the 'I'm just favoring Mewtwo in the scenario' treatment.

I've read the entire Bleach manga, I know how Gremmy ***** around.

I've seen the moves, games and manga of Pokemon. I know what Mewtwo's capable of.

Gremmy deludes himself with the idea that he's a god that can do whatever the **** he wants.

Mewtwo is many times more practical and strategic, in both the manga and the movies.

While Gremmy dicks around in the fight, Mewtwo's analyzing Gremmy's every move, and comes to the conclusion that Gremmy needs to die fast.
 
CoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
@Ghostly Owns
The only time he played with his food was with Kenpachi, who broke his well expectations and ideology and kept claiming he was the strongest out loud like a shonen main character. He certainly wasn't playing with his food when he

A) Made someone cease to exist

B) Killed two people at once to show off

C) Turned Yachiru's bones into cookies and was all but set to destroy her till Kenny luckily arrive.

He wanted to break Kenpachi's spirit because there was no one else like him. Like the same feeling as if you feel like shooting someone isn't just right and want to beat the crap out of them first before so you can really prove who's the strongest.

Unless Mewtwo is spouting out "I'M THE STRONGEST!!" Like Kenpachi is I doubt Gremmy would be interested in taking him on like Kenny.
Click to expand...
Good point.
 
Take it easy man
Since when did I start to say that? Calm down man. Sides I have no way of knowing that either and I'm not the type to insult others.


I mean I'm Canadian after all.

*Gets shot*
 
That being said, Mewtwo isn't the time to die off in the first strike, it would probably intrigue Gremmy that Mewtwo's still alive, and he'd probably mess around before killing.

Sure, if he goes against most people, he can instant-kill.

Mewtwo is not a human, how'd you thing Gremmy would act?

"Kill the animal" or "Ooh, what do you think it can do?"
 
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