Mewtwo vs. Gremmy Thoumeaux

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just for the record Im still voting for Mewtwo but I wasnt bad-mouthing anyone. Please don't think I was.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Are you serious Aqua? why would you join this thread just to post a worthless, dumbass comment like that?

And i'm not getting anything but obscene bias for mewtwo in this thread, so that's it for me aswell.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

I voted for mewtwo, but this is literally going nowhere.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Agreed.i stated a plain reason for why i say gremmy wins but idk what's going on and if i should argue

 

[Omegagoldfish]

Agreed.i stated a plain reason for why i say gremmy wins but idk what's going on and if i should argue

All you said was, and I quote directly: "Siding with gremmy in the long run if he dosen't become too cocky"

No reason, just saying you side with him.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im only voting for Mewtwo because, from what concur, the reasons for why Gremmy should win are more flawed and are being based off of chance rather than likelyhood. Chances that will most likely not work against Mewtwo who has multiple options of countering his powers enough to finish him off.

But if this thread isnt going anywhere then it shoud be closed and that'll be that.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Before this is closed, I'm just gonna say this. Gremmy is incompetent when it comes down to the wire. He's got the entire power of his imagination that he can make reality and he loses to a person with no hax.

The fact that he didn't just LOL!Gone Kenpachi's or Yachiru's existence point to it. And that thing of him trying to overpower Kenpachi shows how stupid he is. All that had to happen was this:

Kenpachi: "I'm the strongest."

Gremmy: (rolls eyes) "Suuuuure you are..." (Reduces Kenpachi to a pile of lego bricks)

That's all he had to do and he didn't do it. Instead he prolonged the fight, trying to prove he was better.

Heck, we have him listed as someone who doesn't use his powers efficiently and is arrgonat to boot.

Honestly, Gremmy should win against Mewtwo. Butt he also should have one shot Zaraki. Making excuses for him just points to his flaws.

But whatever.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Yeah just close this thread. The result isn't important anymore if people are just gonna throw insults.

But once again I'm saying this now.... Yachiru was someone he observed the entire time in the fight seeing as he was observing the fight with his creation. Meaning he witnessed all of its power and thus reacted accordingly. If it wasn't for Kenny's arrival he would've killed her at that point.

And once again, it's the fariness debacle. If you have the power of reality warping and you wanna crush the opposition's aspirations, well you just have to beat them with your own power.

I'll quote the wiki here

• "What's this? What did he say just now? If I'm the strongest, I must want to take down the strongest? I'd never even considered such a thing. From the very beginning, there was never a single person who posed a threat to me. After all, I never had any doubts. I've always known I'm the strongest of them all. There's no need to prove it by killing other people. So I never felt the need to crush somebody else with my strength. And yet... And yet why is it that right now, I want to crush this man so much?!"[10]

Here Gremmy wants to crush Kenpachi's strength (Not power) with his own strength. If it was Mewtwo who clearly isn't a strength based guy, he's gonna go for haxx too. Besides... he oneshotted the other three people when he felt like it, in fact that was his first move against the other two captains.

Anyway done now.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But thats the issue that im seeing out of this. Yes we know he wouldve killed Yachiru but why didnt he just imagine her dead or her bones broken instead of doing it in a rather.....strange manner from the start? Im not denying Gremmy using his hax against Mewtwo or even him using it accurately against him as it IS possible. What I am denying is the chances of him using it the right way and thats where the flaw in his reasoning comes from. The chances of Gremmy using his hax in the way that he would win are very slim and the likely result would him screwing himself over with his own hax.

As for Mewtwo, we have 2 possible things out of this:

The first is, considering Mewtwo's manner in the first movie, he would consider himself the strongest and if anything would claim that in order to provoke Gremmy and give himself an advantage.

And the second is...,

If we're assuming both are going to start out using Hax then why wouldnt Mewtwo just use one of the multiple options to win the fight right there? The only option that is debateable of happening is Hax Negation via Safeguard since even though its apart of his moveset Mewtwo has never used it in a fight. But other than that, the other options which Gremmy certainly cannot counter or stop should still hold water here.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

When you know everything about your enemy such as their power, and you despise them (Quincies to shinigamis and vice versa) would you want to mock them too? Either way that argument doesn't refute my point of him using it on the other three either. What you're saying doesn't immediately mean that he 'won't' do it either. You've seen what he did. And there's also still the relative issue of how he can just hide his existence from Mewtwo just like what he did early on to the other captains. The only reason why he didn't use it on Kenpachi is because the guy doesn't use haxx and Gremmy wants a fair fight to prove to him how strong he is.

Once again

Strongest with only phsyical force ? Match them with physical force and fight them directly

Strongest with haxx? Use haxx on them

Also like I said numerous times before, Mewtwo has no counter for when Gremmy decides to hide his existence.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And what is the possibility of Gremmy wanting a "fair fight" against Mewtwo as well? To try and prove to Mewtwo how strong he is? Both are in the same tier as each other and Gremmy wouldnt think so little of Mewtwo otherwise he wouldnt even take the time to come and fight him in the first place. The very likelyness out of this is Gremmy would either do what he did against Kenpachi and fight Mewtwo "fairly" or take it easy and test his capabilities first before deciding to finish him off. And since Mewtwo can read minds and read through memories, he definitely wouldnt take Gremmy lightly unless purposely trying to taunt him into a fight to get him to be at a disadvantage. After all, one is highly intelligent and the other has basic knowledge at best.

And if Gremmy comes at Mewtwo directly with just brute force he's literally just asking to be haxstomped. The better option would be coming at him with hax and there is still doubtfulness in that. Not like Gremmy would know to go down this route however.

In fact, there's something I noticed which some here seem to be forgetting. Another issue about the whole "hax and power" thing with Gremmy is that Mewtwo is NOT someone who specilizes in one over the other. He's equally strong in both formats (especially with his mega evolutions even though they are banned in this fight). So what would Gremmy do? Come at him with hax or brute force? Thats another issue with this. Mewtwo is good in both regards so we have no idea what Gremmy would decide to do. Meanwhile Mewtwo will be given more fighting options to finish off Gremmy who will have trouble deciding how he should fight Mewtwo.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

The only issue is that Mewtwo has haxx... Kenny doesn't... so Gremmy isn't gonna hold back on his haxx either.... Simple.... Yachiru's ability was haxx-esque so he immediately shut it down. His creation had haxx and he killed him easily. To anyone that isn't Kenpachi he dealt with accordingly....

Once again not once have you reacted to the ability to the imperciptibility that Gremmy has and showed off in the beginning of his arrival... And why would he?... I already explained numerous times why Gremmy will use haxx...

Off topic. Don't even talk about mega forms. And Gremmy has the capacity to strengthen himself too. But not the point when you can hax finish your opponent and Gremmy can still summon a meteor that could wipe out a very large area if you wanna argue about physical force, and he was gonna survive that. This is a repeated back and forth with how you're ignoring my points.

Like I said...

They can kill each other. But Gremmy has the advantage of his abilities easily bypassing conventional durability. Mewtwo has mindwipe and all, but it's useless when your target becomes invisible. It's not as if Gremmy is just gonna stand there and take it when something threatens his imagination or he imagines himself to be resistant to it.

 

[Omegagoldfish]

The only issue is that Mewtwo has haxx... Kenny doesn't... so Gremmy isn't gonna hold back on his haxx either.... Simple.... Yachiru's ability was haxx-esque so he immediately shut it down. His creation had haxx and he killed him easily. To anyone that isn't Kenpachi he dealt with accordingly....
Once again not once have you reacted to the ability to the imperciptibility that Gremmy has and showed off in the beginning of his arrival... And why would he?... I already explained numerous times why Gremmy will use haxx...

Off topic. Don't even talk about mega forms. And Gremmy has the capacity to strengthen himself too. But not the point when you can hax finish your opponent and Gremmy can still summon a meteor that could wipe out a very large area if you wanna argue about physical force, and he was gonna survive that. This is a repeated back and forth with how you're ignoring my points.

Like I said...

They can kill each other. But Gremmy has the advantage of his abilities easily bypassing conventional durability. Mewtwo has mindwipe and all, but it's useless when your target becomes invisible. It's not as if Gremmy is just gonna stand there and take it when something threatens his imagination or he imagines himself to be resistant to it.

Ah, yes, like it's perfectly in character for Gremmy to hide like that, or it's not like Mewtwo wouldn't be able to hear, or sense mental activity with its powerful telapathic abilities. It's also perfectly fair for Gremmy to know Mewtwo's capacity without mind-reading or prep, and this is no prep.


This is honestly a situation that makes no sense. Gremmy's boastful, he's arrogant, and isn't a no-nonsense combatant.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

My argument is that it's in character for him to immediately oneshot people.... Or restrict what powers they have after observing.

The chance of him using the existence hiding? Low but it doesn't mean he won't use it against a smart enemy.

Version 1 (ÒâÉÒâ╝Òé©ÒâºÒâ│1, B─üjon 1) causes Guenael's "appearance" to vanish, thereby turning him invisible.[9]
Version 2 (ÒâÉÒâ╝Òé©ÒâºÒâ│2, B─üjon 2) causes his "existence" to vanish, causing him to become completely intangible. When using this version, he leaves behind an afterimage that can act as a decoy, giving opponents the impression that their attacks have landed.[9]
Version 3 (ÒâÉÒâ╝Òé©ÒâºÒâ│3, B─üjon 3) causes Guenael's existence to vanish from within the minds of others, causing them to forget that he ever existed.[10]
That's totally just invisibility. And before you get started he's the one that's giving him the power.


Kinda why Yachiru stood no chance against him huh. Regardless the thread is concluded, it's Gremmy's win with a 4 difference gap in the who wins who loses. Just close the thread and let's be done.

Edit - and word of advice, don't quote huge texts.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And your assuming Gremmy will just "know" Mewtwo specializes in hax? In fact, with all due respect, its absurd to think Gremmy will know Mewtwo is great in the hax category. There is no prep in this fight and Gremmy has no mind reading or way of observing Mewtwo's abilities while on the other hand Mewtwo can perfectly read Gremmy's mind and his memories of his powers without needing prep. So how will Gremmy know Mewtwo is a hax character without knowing his abilities, especially if he is proffienct in both formats? The only way would be to purposely let Mewtwo hit him to figure out his power and if that happens, anything Mewtwo does as the first move will seal him the win.

For the existence hiding, Gremmy will need Version 3 of it in order to be safe from what Mewtwo can do as the 1st 2 are assuming Mewtwo cannot use his other senses to figure out where Gremmy is. Intangibility and Invisibility isnt gonna stop Mewtwo from either mind raping him, memory wiping him, time reverse him, mind control him and etc. And Gremmy is definitely not going to start out with Version 3 just like that. So again, this is more assumptions and guestimates in Gremmy's favor.

 

[LordAizenSama]

>For a verdict, there must be at least seven votes in favour of one character/team, with a minimum difference of three votes.

Gremmy won, threads past the one day grace period. Close it, add the result and move on people

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Even then, the reasons for Gremmy winning have pretty much been countered so I doubt its addable.

 

[LordAizenSama]

You don't want to go down that route, or Mewtwo is going to lose all his votes.

Can you please just accept defeat and move on?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

AizenSama, with all due respect to you and everyone else as I do think highly of everyone elses opinions, I don't feel comfortable about accepting Gremmy winning when literally the only reason he would win is based off of chance and has been countered by Mewtwo having much more winning options. And if his reason for winning has been debunked then why should it be allowed to be added?

 

[LordAizenSama]

I'm going to be blunt here. It is only debunked according to you, Theres plenty of posts like mine and COB's who, as far as i'm concerned, Have way more critical thinking and logic behind them and they have either been straightup ignored or not debunked at all.

The attempted debunking of them was like watching a world record attempt at most fallacies used in a thread.

If you truly respected others opinions, you'd understand and accept the reasoning used here, and not claim it's false, has no merit, and shouldn't be counted.

(This is my last post on this thread, I promise)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm going to be blunt here. It is only debunked according to you, Theres plenty of posts like mine and COB's who, as far as i'm concerned, Have way more critical thinking and logic behind them and they have either been straightup ignored or not debunked at all.

I don't know about yours but for COB's his was assuming that Gremmy would know Mewtwo's abilities and do decisions such as using his hax in speciifc ways. Along with the fact that Gremmy would likely not even use his hax in the correct format due to its and his flaws around it.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I gave up on this debate already but you know what I'll respond one more time because that is NOT what I'm saying at all... I never assumed that. My entire argument is focused how an in character Gremmy was only driven to stupidity by Kenpachi and his other feats are consistent enough and smart. Let's ignore Kenpachi right now and focus on him.


Gremmy sent someone in to handle Yachiru. While being invisible to both of them he watches Yachiru unleash her full power and how his ally was being beaten around, never interfering until it becomes clear his ally was gonna die. What does he do? Off him before he can get captured or anything like that. He proceeds to then kill the other two captains, and then dodges an attack from Yachiru and proceeds to basically leave her vulnerable enough to be oneshotted. Now why didn't he just off her? Because he pretty much saw Yachiru's power, her bankai. He now knows what that girl can do. So he uses an ability that pretty much prevents that ability from working. And then he was gonna off her.

That's an in character thing BEFORE Kenpachi shows off. Him using three haxes in a row to defeat three people in a row. And Yachiru is technically defeated, just not killed. The only flaws around his imagination realization is because yes, he needs to imagine it. But on the other hand that's the only reason why he lost to Kenpachi who is on a completely different style of personality to Mewtwo and I sincerely doubt Gremmy would even think of Mewtwo as a rabid monster when he's clearly intelligent and calm.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

And that.... is why an in character Gremmy wouldn't hold back from using his power against someone who focuses on haxx and react accordingly.... If he turned invisible against Kenpachi he might as well have admitted that he's not the strongest and that's what he's not trying to do. He's trying to prove that he can beat down Kenpachi without the use of haxx with the exception of the vacuum.... And at that point he was beginning to treat him like a monster....


In the end... That's my argument on why Gremmy's actually competent and Kenpachi can make reality warpers ********.... Last one's a joke but seriously... Now I'm done.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay I see that but there is a flaw in your argument. The main issue in this is that Gremmy is doing all of that through prep. He did that to Yachiru because through that someone he sent he was observing her power right? Does he have someone to observe Mewtwo? No he does not. So Gremmy has no idea on what Mewtwo can do. In fact, it would the very opposite. Gremmy wouldnt be able to observe Mewtwo, but Mewtwo would be able to observe him and his powers with his mind hax. So we have no idea on whether or not Gremmy is gonna off Mewtwo or take it easy and observe his abilities. So thats why I stated this is based off of assumptions and guesstimates. If Gremmy had prep here, I would actually agree with you completely.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

The score is actually 8-6 now since Howard voted for Mewtwo.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Not like it matters really. The results were added already.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Oh. Okay.

I guess Cal's vote didn't count because he voted after the grace period.