Metroid: Light of Aether Low 4-C Return

[SomebodyData]

The purpose of this thread is to reinstate a low 4-C feat, primarily for some of the top-tiers in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes. It's important to mention the context, but I think Armorchompy's original downgrade thread does an excellent job of that, even if I disagree with his conclusions.

I agreed with his points regarding the Dark Samus scaling and to a lesser degree the Samus scaling, but I also believe we got caught up on the finer details last thread so I'd like to make it a bit shorter here.

The primary purpose of this thread is to reinstate a feat that is currently (or rather, was) the basis for the Metroid series' Low 4-C ratings, which is characters scaling to the Light of Aether, an energy that is capable of sustaining Dark Aether, otherwise converting back to energy then back equal to the planet Aether's mass. The scaling is primarily done through the Emperor Ing and Samus Aran's Light Suit.

(A fraction) of the Light of Aether is Low 4-C​

I don't actually disagree with a lot of of Armorchompy in his thread, however, due to uh... factors, it was never really well explained why the Light of Aether is Low 4-C in that thread.

Looking back at the thread:
"We actually get a pretty straightforward definition of what the Light of Aether is when we first scan Aether's Main Energy Controller: it is said to hold "a collection of several types of energy. Notable types include solar, bio, and geothermal energy". This is already a mark against the original assumption: it tells us that the Light of Aether is a collection of Aether's planetary energies that the Luminoth simply stored safely, as for whatever reason, it sustains the planet of Aether. There's even a statement that if it all was taken Aether would be destroyed by violent climate shifts and tectonic movements - that doesn't really sound like a planet being converted into energy. We even see the removal of the Light beginning to affect Dark Aether: Whenever Samus gets some of the Light back, the skies in that area turn red. Furthermore, the Light existed, and after MP2 exists again, at the same time as Aether in its entirety. It could not possibly be the energy conversion of half of Aether's mass, because it exists at the same time as all of that mass."

There is only two issues. The statement "Aether would be destroyed by violent climate shifts and tectonic movements" is out of context. The violent climate shifts and tectonic movements are already occurring. To link the scan wasn't enough as this was clearly missed, so here's the direct quote:

"Planetary Stability Report, 07.203.01
Planetary energy is at critical, creating violent climate changes and tectonic shifts. Unless these conditions can be reversed, global destruction is inevitable."
(Computer 9, Command Center)

The reason this matters is because this destruction mentioned is the result of the 50 years of not having the complete Light of Aether leading to the deteriorating state of the planet, but is not the immediate destruction that occurs when none of the Light of Aether is on the planet. So yes, while I agree on many of the details, the conclusion is just outright wrong.

The second issue? Aether does not exist in its entirety, but in a state of transdimensional flux.

Planet: Aether
Obscure world in the Dasha system.
Planet is unstable due to transdimensional flux. Warfare has devastated a good portion of the world's
population. Finally, extreme climate shifts have left most of Aether uninhabitable. (Aether's Entry)

Transdimensional flux is defined in game as:

Amidst this turmoil, we discovered many disturbing anomalies. Spatial disturbances appeared across the land. Objects went into a state of dimensional flux, their atoms divided between Aether and... somewhere else. There was little time to ponder these strange happenings, for we had to deal with the devastation of our lands. (The World Warped)

Object scan complete.
Target is in a state of dimensional flux.
Unable to completely scan Bomb Slot target. 50% of its component atoms are in another dimension, or on the surface of Dark Aether. (Bomb Slot in Transdimensional Flux Scan)

We also outright see that moving between Aether and Dark Aether, requires the object or, in this example, Samus, into energy. We also see that objects in interdimensional flux cannot be transferred from Dark Aether to Aether, their energy is the only thing capable:

"Device: Bomb Slot
Powered system control unit.
Insert the Morph Ball into the slot then detonate a Bomb.
This will transfer energy from the slot to the device connected to it." (Dark Aether's Bomb Slot in Transdimensional Flux Counterpart Scan)

"Transdimensional activity detected.
A device has been activated back on Aether." (On Screen message after activating said Bomb Slot)

Having confirmed that Dark Aether is indeed 50% of Aether's mass and that energy is the only thing that can travel between the dimensions is great and all, but the mass-energy standards are rather strict. So here's a feat of it directly doing just that:

Once you obtain the Light Suit, you gain access to the Luminoth's energy transport system. This functions by using the Light of Aether as Light Shafts, allowing as the name suggests to transport energy. Once in the light, you become a part of the beam of energy before reforming on the other end. The fact is, mass-energy conversion is one of the main abilities of the Light of Aether itself.

Emperor Ing​

A minor correction, but the Emperor Ing actually only uses an eighth of the Light of Aether, not half. It's only a half of the Temple Grounds' Light of Aether, which itself is one of 4 energy controllers. As before, the Emperor Ing is stated to siphon energy from the Energy Controller. We also see this is a significant amount used, as by the time the Emperor Ing is in his final state, it's a fraction of its former size.

• Before Emperor Ing
• First Phase
• Mutated Emperor Ing
• After Emperor Ing

Chariot190 made a remark about how it could have just shrinked, but as far as I can tell, that's just speculation(?) I couldn't see any scan suggesting the Emperor Ing could do so. Like he himself said, the Emperor Ing doesn't have the Energy Transfer Module either.

Samus Aran (Specifically the Light Suit)​

Another piece of scaling that I feel is legitimate. It's rather unfortunate that the conversation between JJ and Chariot went as it did, since I think they both touched upon good points. Had JJ brought statements and scans, I feel like this could have been a bigger point. As is, I'll bring my own evidence to the table.

First, the Light Suit is energized by the Light of Aether.

…I offer you this blessed suit of armor, energized by the Light of Aether itself. Its power will help you reach these final keys. (U-Mos)

Secondly, the process momentarily darkens Aether. This normally really wouldn't matter, but the only time there is such a change is when the Light of Aether is completely taken from Dark Aether, and the opposite occurs when the energy is restored. This means the act of just energizing the Light Suit nearly took all 7/8ths of the Light of Aether momentarily out of commission. Of course, the fact that the Light Suit requires 7/8th of the Light of Aether to begin with - and isn't just provided after restoring one temple - alone is evidence that the Light Suit takes quite a bit of the Light of Aether.

Conclusion (Proposed Changes)​

The Low 4-C rating should be restored. The Luminoth should probably just be outright 4-C given the actual feat is done by an eighth of the actual Light of Aether.

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, BrackishBrineBroth

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with the re-additions as spoken on Discord. And I also see it leading to other upgrades not really thought of before.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Agreed with everything. I've also never noticed the skies darkening over Aether when Samus gets the light suit, so good job on noticing that.

 

[Chariot190]

A minor correction, but the Emperor Ing actually only uses an eighth of the Light of Aether, not half. It's only a half of the Temple Grounds' Light of Aether, which itself is one of 4 energy controllers. As before, the Emperor Ing is stated to siphon energy from the Energy Controller. We also see this is a significant amount used, as by the time the Emperor Ing is in his final state, it's a fraction of its former size.

And yet, by the end of the fight, it's completely full and normal, ie, no he didn't.
Secondly, the very fact he can siphon it, indefinetely, means he wasn't using any notable fraction.

• Before Emperor Ing
• First Phase
• Mutated Emperor Ing
• After Emperor Ing

Chariot190 made a remark about how it could have just shrinked, but as far as I can tell, that's just speculation(?) I couldn't see any scan suggesting the Emperor Ing could do so. Like he himself said, the Emperor Ing doesn't have the Energy Transfer Module either.

I made a remark because the very fact that was even an argument is baffling, given we know what happened on both cases, bro just wasn't listening
99% of this is speculation to begin with, which, you can't do for stuff like this? Something you 100% know.

Fact of the matter is, Ing upon defeat, drops the whole of it, not any smaller than it once was,


Why'd you ignore this?

And then coupled with the fact he can draw from it indefinitely, and hell, the fact isn't even the LoA in the final form but his heart as stated by the scan.

Further exposure to Phazon has mutated the Emperor Ing. The creature's energized heart is unstable. Beams of opposite polarity can damage the heart. Overloading the heart with energy may cause it to exceed critical mass.

This whole premise falls apart, we know he didn't use any relevant amount, he drops it as a whole, he can draw and use it indefinitely (if he was using a lot, he'd run out, and even then we'd need to divide by how many attacks he used till he ran out), etc. Everything that could disprove this, is actively confirmed and shown.
It is what it is. It only looks small, because that isn't even the LoA to begin with.

First, the Light Suit is energized by the Light of Aether.

…I offer you this blessed suit of armor, energized by the Light of Aether itself. Its power will help you reach these final keys. (U-Mos)

Yes, a very small fraction of it. Of course it is, it protects from the toxic atmosphere of Dark Aether?

You know what else does tho?
"We developed Crystals that brought the Light of Aether to the dark world. Using these Crystals allowed our warriors to explore the enemy lands, to bring war to the Ing. Sadly, the Crystals were not enough. We needed stronger weapons, better armor. We withdrew from Dark Aether while our greatest minds devised new engines of war."

The tiny crystals that serve the same function as the light suit. You're not gonna argue every crystal is energized by a notable portion of it right? Of course you won't, so why do the same for the functionally identical Light Suit? Because the sky darkens for a moment? A fact that actually confirms it WASN'T powered by a notable amount, but rather like a second's worth?

Secondly, the process momentarily darkens Aether.

A tiny fraction of the Temple Grounds isn't the whole planet.
And lad, we know for a fact, when substantial energy is taken, the sky darkens, and STAYS dark. 1 second ain't gonna cut it, we can calc that even.

This normally really wouldn't matter, but the only time there is such a change is when the Light of Aether is completely taken from Dark Aether,

Agon Wastes isn't a whole planet? And that change is permanent.
You're actively proving the Light Suit isn't energized by a notable fraction with these showings.

and the opposite occurs when the energy is restored.

And it's permanent. Even after you get the Light Suit, where, if the Light Suit took a relevant amount, it wouldn't be anymore.
Hell, the very fact the light teleport stuff is a thing hinges on that NOT being the case.

This means the act of just energizing the Light Suit nearly took all 7/8ths of the Light of Aether momentarily out of commission.

No, literally best you can argue is it momentarily took about 1 second (or however long it was) of the total energy for the Temple Grounds alone. That's what we see, nothing beyond that is shown or stated. Inversely, as below.

Even assuming it was the whole planet, 1 second, of an energy that hasn't been refilled for like 50 years, yet has managed Dark Aether and Aether that long, is like, idk, 1.5x billion less than the whole of it.

Ya know what value that'd give? 40.6 zettatons, low 5-B. And that's being generous mind you, as well as going with EMC for argument's sake.

Of course, the fact that the Light Suit requires 7/8th of the Light of Aether to begin with - and isn't just provided after restoring one temple - alone is evidence that the Light Suit takes quite a bit of the Light of Aether.

Conjecture, where do they state this? Why would you assume this? U-Mos doesn't want any used to begin with as it is. And even then, what does it matter, we know he didn't, we know she didn't get all of it. You can make excuses or try to justify why'd that'd be dumb, and hell maybe it is, maybe he can join the Chozo, Feds and Pirates in being dumb as shit, but it still happened that way.

The game states it's still running at effectively full capacity now (Literally just scan it after getting the Light Suit, ie, the game actively shoots down this notion), we literally see it running and full to the brim, ie, it wasn't used in any meaningful capacity (my man, you can SEE it full, all of them are even) the various regions aren't affected by this, yet they would be if they took any relevant amount of energy, and the very light transport system proves this notion false.

And the worst part? It wouldn't even matter if it DID use it all, because Samus doesn't use any notable amount of it for anything, if she did, it'd run out.
Yet she returns it back at the end of the game, and even if she was using it, for say, every attack, she'd run out and we'd still need to divide by every attack, tanking feat, and so on till it did.

Not to mention, the isn't "darkening the sky of Aether", it's darkening a tiny fraction of the sky of Aether for a split second. Which, is what, maybe 7-C if ya wanna get real.

Once you obtain the Light Suit, you gain access to the Luminoth's energy transport system. This functions by using the Light of Aether as Light Shafts, allowing as the name suggests to transport energy. Once in the light, you become a part of the beam of energy before reforming on the other end. The fact is, mass-energy conversion is one of the main abilities of the Light of Aether itself.

It needs to be stated, not a funny light thing only done after getting a cool light suit.
Hell, we see her in a weird semi-corporal state anyway while moving through it, it's just kinda fucky. Either way, it's stated to be a teleport thing, that isn't unique to the LoA last I checked in metroid.

This is what I don't like, they never state it's mass-energy, you're kinda just assuming it is out of multiple possibilities and this one in particular wouldn't even qualify as Samus had mass to begin with and demonstrably isn't completely converted

Disagree with everything tbh. Except the fact it darkened the sky, that's something at least, whether it's just like, tier 7-6, or low 5, would need to be figured out tho.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't actually disagree with a lot of of Armorchompy in his thread, however, due to uh... factors, it was never really well explained why the Light of Aether is Low 4-C in that thread.

Once you obtain the Light Suit, you gain access to the Luminoth's energy transport system. This functions by using the Light of Aether as Light Shafts, allowing as the name suggests to transport energy. Once in the light, you become a part of the beam of energy before reforming on the other end. The fact is, mass-energy conversion is one of the main abilities of the Light of Aether itself.

Again just turning into light is not enough for E=mc^2 unless it's stated ("Matter-energy conversion should only be used for a calculation if it is clearly stated that this is the progress used.")- you could say she is turning from mass into energy and then back into it but as unintuitive as that may be, even that isn't enough to prove E=mc^2. I'll address a few of the other points out of thoroughness but it doesn't really matter much.

There is only two issues. The statement "Aether would be destroyed by violent climate shifts and tectonic movements" is out of context. The violent climate shifts and tectonic movements are already occurring. To link the scan wasn't enough as this was clearly missed, so here's the direct quote:

The reason this matters is because this destruction mentioned is the result of the 50 years of not having the complete Light of Aether leading to the deteriorating state of the planet, but is not the immediate destruction that occurs when none of the Light of Aether is on the planet. So yes, while I agree on many of the details, the conclusion is just outright wrong.

Well, yes, I knew that, but given this is because of the lack of the LoA, I think it's fair to interpret any kind of destruction it will undergo, even when all of it is taken, as a more explosive version of that, in lack of any other evidence.

The second issue? Aether does not exist in its entirety, but in a state of transdimensional flux.

Transdimensional flux is defined in game as:

We also outright see that moving between Aether and Dark Aether, requires the object or, in this example, Samus, into energy. We also see that objects in interdimensional flux cannot be transferred from Dark Aether to Aether, their energy is the only thing capable:

Having confirmed that Dark Aether is indeed 50% of Aether's mass and that energy is the only thing that can travel between the dimensions is great and all, but the mass-energy standards are rather strict.

Ehh... Aether does exist in its entirety. It's just split in half across dimensions, but it and the energy still exist at once, rather than 100% of LoA and 100% of Aether it's 50% of both and then the remaining 50% in Dark Aether

Something else worth mentioning is that dimensional flux arguably disproves the entire concept of E=mc^2 being used- the mass of Aether is just being dimensionall shifted, not transformed into energy. We outright know that there's some spacehax going on with DA anyways, so that's a pretty likely conclusion.

A minor correction, but the Emperor Ing actually only uses an eighth of the Light of Aether, not half. It's only a half of the Temple Grounds' Light of Aether, which itself is one of 4 energy controllers. As before, the Emperor Ing is stated to siphon energy from the Energy Controller. We also see this is a significant amount used, as by the time the Emperor Ing is in his final state, it's a fraction of its former size.

He actually uses more than that, the Great Temple is said to hold more than the other three back on Light Aether, and its version on DA should be the same. This isn't really important but I dunno I thought I should bring it up.

• Before Emperor Ing
• First Phase
• Mutated Emperor Ing
• After Emperor Ing

Chariot190 made a remark about how it could have just shrinked, but as far as I can tell, that's just speculation(?) I couldn't see any scan suggesting the Emperor Ing could do so. Like he himself said, the Emperor Ing doesn't have the Energy Transfer Module either.

I just echo Chariot's points here. The Emperor Ing's heart isn't the LoA.

Secondly, the process momentarily darkens Aether. This normally really wouldn't matter, but the only time there is such a change is when the Light of Aether is completely taken from Dark Aether, and the opposite occurs when the energy is restored. This means the act of just energizing the Light Suit nearly took all 7/8ths of the Light of Aether momentarily out of commission. Of course, the fact that the Light Suit requires 7/8th of the Light of Aether to begin with - and isn't just provided after restoring one temple - alone is evidence that the Light Suit takes quite a bit of the Light of Aether.

This only proves that the LoA was used to make the Light Suit, the other issues remain- first off "took all 7/8ths of the LoA momentarily out of commission" doesn't make much sense- we know it's permanently (or at least for a long enough timespan) expended when used up, so clearly not all of that was expended. We don't exactly have much knowledge on the workings of this stuff- maybe the light goes out any time the LoA is used for a significant feat, maybe any time it's used to create anything, maybe it's just part of the mechanism, maybe Retro thought the cutscene would look cooler with the light going out. Not to say your interpretation is necessarily incorrect but we don't really know either way.

Even if that was true, requiring X power to make =/= wielding X power in battle. If an energy gun I have has a 1 megajoule battery and I shoot 1 megajoule blasts out of it, it's gonna stop working after the first shot- Samus' doesn't, so we know for a fact that she must be utilizing (and therefore scaling to) much smaller portions of the energy.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Chariot and Armorchompy’s arguments seem more compelling. Disagree with the OP.

 

[SomebodyData]

Hmmm can't say I really have a counterargument for Armorchompy's first point there. Knew the rules were strict, didn't realize how strict they were.

That said, for clarification sake:

The heart is the LoA. The previous scans also refer to it as the eye of Emperor Ing, after it began transforming to mend its body around it.

The Emperor Ing has exposed its main eye, from which it can fire powerful energy beams. It is protected by an energy shield, although not completely.

Like its brethren, the Emperor Ing is a metamorph. It has molded itself around the precious Energy Controller, and will defend it to the death, using its own body as a shield and weapon. Destroy the tentacles it generates to weaken the creature and its defenses.

I also disagree with a few more assertions by Chariot, but they seem unimportant now that Low 4-C is out the window.