Metroid - Debunking Zebes' 960x Gravity

[Chariot190]

I'll take it as Chariot dropping the 960x gravity in gameplay argument from his other responses.

Im not. It has to be reflected SOMEWHERE dude, and they have a bunch of ways to do so, the fact nothing ever even reflects it, when we know they can, and HAVE before, not a good sign.

You showed 1 example contrary, but in said example, they showed the difference anyway so not the best point.

 

[SomebodyData]

No offense, but ever think maybe because they DONT have any differences to begin with?

First actual evidence you posted, thank you.
Except, they also show Samus jumping 100ft 5 seconds before, ie, they did something to demonstrate the gravity discrepancy. Why not do that for ANYTHING else.

So Aether at half it's mass, has the same gravity as Tallon IV, which has the same gravity as a depressurized room in outer space, or G.F.S. Valhalla?

I've been linking most of my remarks when needed, I'm not sure if you noticed, so this isn't the 'first actual evidence'.

??? She can jump high in every cutscene tho? She literally makes that jump look like nothing in the ending cutscene on Tallon IV.

No? He's falling? Because it's collapsing? He was actually on a pipe, which i literally sent awhile ago?

He didn't take it, the building collapsed, because a fuckton of the infrastructure got pulped. He just fell.

Dude, you realize the rubble would have been flattened if it was in range? Like the rubble that WAS in range was?

The pipe that was on the ceiling, yeah.

Most of the structure survived, the collapse of the ceiling occured during the gravity bomb explosion when everything was getting sucked in.

Do you mean the range of the explosion or the pull of gravity? Those are two different things.

Exactly, why would they? Yet that's from the website too, that youre arguing doesnt count because PAL, all while ignoring the website is WHY Zebes has 1000g.

Zebes has been given two widths.

Width 1, from the SM guide ya keep saying doesnt count.
Width 2, from the website ya keep saying doesnt count.

You realize if we go with this, shit's ****** right? it'd be downgraded anyway because we dont have a width to even use to calc the gravity.

We can just calc the size of Zebes and Tallon IV based on the observatory, If you guys want to keep the website fine, but you know you're only proving that the Ape Inc guide is hella outdated with the contradictions, although it doesn't really matter anyways. The website isn't actually saying the planet is low density anyways.

[

Im not assuming, the hell do you think the main component in the Ruin area made of? Ya even scan it and it says "hey yep, sand stone".

We know what's above average, we know a dense one, we know not above average ones. By proxy, we know what the average material on Tallon DOESNT weighs. We can figure out an approximate average based on the values and info given, basic grade 3 math.

You're literally taking one region (really more of an abandoned town), and applying that to the entire planet. You realize that, right?

[

3 year old child who needs to be modified because she will die (for unrelated facets) and her pet aint normal?

Nice rebuttal. im using a 800 year old chozo who can barely walk and uses a walking stick on 1g planets and cant even fend for himself or dodge stuff, as a anti-feat.

He aint no raven beak, or even gray. Yet, according to you,

this mf Class 100?

Hell not even him, what about the Eevee? Why is a animal from a 1g planet able to survive on a planet with 960g? That mf aint evolved for that? Even if he was modified like the pirates, he still lasted awhile.

I'm not sure what to tell ya, but let me know when you've downgraded Cranky Kong or any cane user really, to 10-C.

Also, you won't believe me but that rabbit is superhuman lmao, it can beat down aliens and outrun Zebesians. I'll send scans if you'd like, but seems irrelevant enough.

Oh? But he did, it didnt hurt him at all, took zero damage, and he even moved


But, we dont slap Grav res or adaption on him, because youd be right, he DIDNT adapt or res the actual gravity, he just stat'd through it, almost like,


Samus, who didnt res the gravity, and hell she didnt even stand up, or move, she faceplanted, and survived because of dura.

See the issue? We dont just slap grav this or that, when she didnt even DO anything.

If you can't see the difference between not being immediately annihilated by that level of gravity and being slowed by lower end gravity manip, idk what to tell you.

Have you even played Metroid? So much random shit gets retconned constantly, hell one of your very arguments was "Other M retconned SM because she dont have grav suit", in which my reply was "well nuh uh dread retconned it BACK". Or shit like the Omega Suit fixing DNA. Even shit like Samus wall jumping in ZM yet the fact she can wall jump is hard stated in F to have been learnt in Super.

Do we toss whole games out because some stuff gets fucky over time? No. We don't, what's changed gets tossed. And here we're talking about a pretty blatant conversion fuckup, somehow retconning a thing that Prime itself even uses info from? Or stuff after Prime like the ZM manga.

How about this, post 3 pieces of evidence Zebes has exceptional gravity.

Yeah, lots of retcons. That's... the point I was making, that Ape Inc's Zebesian mass has been retconned?

We don't toss entire games because obviously (aside from NEStroid and Samus Returns), but a third party guide? You seriously making that comparsion?

Literally being stated to have that level of mass repeatedly across multiple iterations should be enough- I've never seen this level of overt nitpicking to any other circumstance of a planet having a different gravity?

 

[SomebodyData]

Im not. It has to be reflected SOMEWHERE dude, and they have a bunch of ways to do so, the fact nothing ever even reflects it, when we know they can, and HAVE before, not a good sign.

You showed 1 example contrary, but in said example, they showed the difference anyway so not the best point.

I understand you're hesitant and I hate to bring up the planet Vegeta example, but...

How about Aquaman instead, he (apparently) and all Atlanteans are superhumans due to incredible pressures of the depths of the oceans, but that's never shown. We take the lore, at its word, even though there is probably an anti-feat or two of Batman going to Atlantis, which in itself would have collapsed from the pressure.

..Then again that's not gravity huh

 

[Chariot190]

I mean 90% of it is a guide for Super Metroid, this takes up more than the Zebes lore drop. Aside from that, some of the other Zebes stuff on the page is also outdated, like the size of Zebes is different from the MP website funnily enough, just like the mass.

Man, i dont think you get the argument regarding it, it's that everything BUT that shit, gives Zebes completely normal values,

Like why would German prime and SM yap the same exact values, but ENG prime is 1000x more?

in fact, aint it weird how close it'd be bar 1 digit?

So Aether at half it's mass, has the same gravity as Tallon IV, which has the same gravity as a depressurized room in outer space, or G.F.S. Valhalla?

Yes, especially because normal humans can walk around on Aether, did you forget why Samus went there to begin with? She was gonna rescue Fed troops.

And we have no idea how big, or heavy, Aether even is, that planet ****** weird ngl.

I've been linking most of my remarks when needed, I'm not sure if you noticed, so this isn't the 'first actual evidence'.

it is though. every link youve sent before hand has absolutely nothing to do with any argument.

??? She can jump high in every cutscene tho? She literally makes that jump look like nothing in the ending cutscene on Tallon IV.

You LITERALLY just proved my point, pay better attention. She only jumps like 4m there, then the PoV shifts. She doesnt jump high at all.


Notice how she begins falling? She legit only jumped like 4m, WAY less than before.

You actively just proved me right.

The pipe that was on the ceiling, yeah.

The pipe that was above them but not the ceiling (the top of the building like, 25m man) or anywhere near the fuckass gravity bomb, yeah.

Most of the structure survived, the collapse of the ceiling occured during the gravity bomb explosion when everything was getting sucked in.

Most? Dude, like 80% of it collapsed BECAUSE a bunch of metal supports and stuff got destroyed.

Why are we even arguing this with you? There aint even an argument to be had.

Do you mean the range of the explosion or the pull of gravity? Those are two different things.

The thing with the 10 fucktillion G duh.
The small suck that extends barely out is not the same as the thing that made Samus eat shit and can flatten steel and concrete.


Except actually, do you see that? The part that was IN the extreme gravity, flat, the part that wasn't? Not flat.

Hell why do you think bro jumped back?

Youre right, they ARE two different things, so why bring up the pathetic suck that legit looks less than 2g and Joey was still barely even in, if at all, as a point?

We can just calc the size of Zebes and Tallon IV based on the observatory,

No we cant? Models like that arent to scale, have you ever looked at a SS model, and then the actual SS? Zebes would be almost as big as a sun ffs, in which case, we'd be looking at like 0.01g Zebes, which is just as stupid as 1000g Zebes.

it'd also contradict shots in the manga were we see Zebes' sun.

And finally, calc it HOW, we don't have a frame of reference for anything to calc it off.

If you guys want to keep the website fine, but you know you're only proving that the Ape Inc guide is hella outdated with the contradictions, although it doesn't really matter anyways.

10th time, some stuff being outdated, doesnt mean all of it is.

The website isn't actually saying the planet is low density anyways.

Yeah, it's saying it's pretty average or just above average

You're literally taking one region (really more of an abandoned town), and applying that to the entire planet. You realize that, right?

1/5th of the game world yes. And dude, i said chunk of, not the entire planet, do not strawman me, you can do that much.

Buuuuuuuuuuut, stuff like Phendrana and Magmoor also have fuckys, like why is Magmoor made of the basic rock too? Why do we never see the apparent 1000kg/c^3 rock?

If you can't see the difference between not being immediately annihilated by that level of gravity and being slowed by lower end gravity manip, idk what to tell you.

You realize that's bad for your argument? The fact they consistently show lower grav being reflected and a nuisance, but not the 960g planets?

Yeah, lots of retcons. That's... the point I was making, that Ape Inc's Zebesian mass has been retconned? I'm confused?

And by that logic, German >.

Youre missing the point, aint it weird how every source BUT this one is almost exactly 1 factor less?

We don't toss entire games because obviously (aside from NEStroid and Samus Returns), but a third party guide? You seriously making that comparsion?

I am. You call it 3rd party, yet like it or not, it had access to canon documentation.
And "we cant toss", why not? They have retcons, ya wanna toss an entire website made by Retro, for their own game, basically as canon as ya can get too.

ngl it just looks like ya wanna toss anything that goes against it.

Literally being stated to have that level of mass repeatedly across multiple iterations should be enough-

It isnt. i said proof of gravity, the GRAVITY isnt stated, you get gravity by calcing the MASS that's stated with sizes that youre LITERALLY arguing shouldnt be used. Hell if we agree with you, the gravity gets tossed anyway, do you not realize that?

Proof of gravity, three, do not reply till then as there's no point.

I've never seen this level of overt nitpicking to any other circumstance of a planet having a different gravity?

Yeah because most planets get shot down before they even get that far.

"Yeah this random alien with zero strength feats can casually lift 10000 tons and doesn't even remark on the weight when first landing" isn't a smaller assumption than "Dragon Ball writers didn't know the implications of the planetary weight they wrote down".

They literally do btw. They state stuff like "bro, you'd weigh like 20 tons in that gravity!" and Vegeta has a directly stated value, that's said 100+ times, including Super, a bunch, and they show Goku struggle with it and more till he just gets strong enough, and then he ups it to 100g, and so on. This whataboutism makes zero sense.

DBZ has a fuckton of statements and SHOWS it having that gravity often.

I understand you're hesitant and I hate to bring up the planet Vegeta example, but...

The example is AWFUL, stop bringing it up, for your own sake.

How about Aquaman instead, he (apparently) and all Atlanteans are superhumans due to incredible pressures of the depths of the oceans, but that's never shown. We take the lore, at its word.

HE CAN LIFT LIKE A CONTINENT WHAT

Like really,


This scan alone proves Zebes doesnt have 1000g, argument shouldve ended with that.

 

[SomebodyData]

Man, i dont think you get the argument regarding it, it's that everything BUT that shit, gives Zebes completely normal values,

Like why would German prime and SM yap the same exact values, but ENG prime is 1000x more?

in fact, aint it weird how close it'd be bar 1 digit?

I mean it's probably because English uses the short scale instead of the long scale. Either way as you pointed out, it's still different, your evidence contradicts each other. The 'translation' isn't even the actual translation of what is said, but instead in numerical form.

Yes, especially because normal humans can walk around on Aether, did you forget why Samus went there to begin with? She was gonna rescue Fed troops.

And we have no idea how big, or heavy, Aether even is, that planet ****** weird ngl.

That's missing the major point, that being the vacuum of space being 2.5 g if we want to use the in-game physics engine as evidence.

Also, the Feds go back to Aether after its mass is restored, it would crush them at 2.5g, much moreso at 5g with that armor. That's why we shouldn't be using the in-game physics engine as evidence/

it is though. every link youve sent before hand has absolutely nothing to do with any argument.

You LITERALLY just proved my point, pay better attention. She only jumps like 4m there, then the PoV shifts. She doesnt jump high at all.


Notice how she begins falling? She legit only jumped like 4m, WAY less than before.

You actively just proved me right.

I can see the issue with the POV change. Either way she jumps between the sub chamber layers to escape Metroid Prime's explosion, which is a significant height here.

There's probably more examples of Samus jumping heights that are near or higher than the jump in space anyways, so I'm not sure why this is a point.

The pipe that was above them but not the ceiling (the top of the building like, 25m man) or anywhere near the fuckass gravity bomb, yeah.

Most? Dude, like 80% of it collapsed BECAUSE a bunch of metal supports and stuff got destroyed.

Why are we even arguing this with you? There aint even an argument to be had.

The thing with the 10 fucktillion G duh.
The small suck that extends barely out is not the same as the thing that made Samus eat shit and can flatten steel and concrete.


Except actually, do you see that? The part that was IN the extreme gravity, flat, the part that wasn't? Not flat.

Hell why do you think bro jumped back?

Youre right, they ARE two different things, so why bring up the pathetic suck that legit looks less than 2g and Joey was still barely even in, if at all, as a point?

Samus avoided even using her weapons to not damage Diesel and the building, all of the destruction including the ceiling came from the gravity bomb- Please post a single picture of the scan being destroyed because of something else, or the ceiling falling after the damage to the building; you even posted a photo of the ceiling / Joey falling due to the gravity bomb earlier.

No we cant? Models like that arent to scale, have you ever looked at a SS model, and then the actual SS? Zebes would be almost as big as a sun ffs, in which case, we'd be looking at like 0.01g Zebes, which is just as stupid as 1000g Zebes.

it'd also contradict shots in the manga were we see Zebes' sun.

And finally, calc it HOW, we don't have a frame of reference for anything to calc it off.

10th time, some stuff being outdated, doesnt mean all of it is.

Yeah, it's saying it's pretty average or just above average

You're right, I concede on the Metroid Prime website. I agree now. However, in doing so, you realize the guide contradicts the size on the website too, right? Now both the size and mass are different, so now there's two bits about Zebes that the guide is inaccurate with.

Why are we taking the guide over the in-game description in the first place?

1/5th of the game world yes. And dude, i said chunk of, not the entire planet, do not strawman me, you can do that much.

Buuuuuuuuuuut, stuff like Phendrana and Magmoor also have fuckys, like why is Magmoor made of the basic rock too? Why do we never see the apparent 1000kg/c^3 rock?

You literally argued that sandstone was the average last post and talking about how we could calc the average density from that:

"We know what's above average, we know a dense one, we know not above average ones. By proxy, we know what the average material on Tallon DOESNT weighs. We can figure out an approximate average based on the values and info given, basic grade 3 math."

Maybe I misunderstood you; however, you were very clear here. I wasn't strawmanning you.

You realize that's bad for your argument? The fact they consistently show lower grav being reflected and a nuisance, but not the 960g planets?

The slow gravity part was regarding Sheer Heart Attack, I think you might have gotten that confused.

And by that logic, German >.
Youre missing the point, aint it weird how every source BUT this one is almost exactly 1 factor less?

I am. You call it 3rd party, yet like it or not, it had access to canon documentation.
And "we cant toss", why not? They have retcons, ya wanna toss an entire website made by Retro, for their own game, basically as canon as ya can get too.

ngl it just looks like ya wanna toss anything that goes against it.

No one is ever gonna take a German 'mistranslation' over the Japanese, English, and Spanish versions, much less when other versions of the German translation also disagree with it. Legit try this on any other thread, pull up a contradicting German translation to anything.

You know the site also gives Tallon IV the same mass right? I've been waiting for either of you to mention that, crazy convenient how it doesn't seem to happen. You can't say I'm tossing everything that's contradictory and outright ignore that piece of information.

It isnt. i said proof of gravity, the GRAVITY isnt stated, you get gravity by calcing the MASS that's stated with sizes that youre LITERALLY arguing shouldnt be used. Hell if we agree with you, the gravity gets tossed anyway, do you not realize that?

Proof of gravity, three, do not reply till then as there's no point.

Yeah because most planets get shot down before they even get that far.

They literally do btw. They state stuff like "bro, you'd weigh like 20 tons in that gravity!" and Vegeta has a directly stated value, that's said 100+ times, including Super, a bunch, and they show Goku struggle with it and more till he just gets strong enough, and then he ups it to 100g, and so on. This whataboutism makes zero sense.

DBZ has a fuckton of statements and SHOWS it having that gravity often.

The example is AWFUL, stop bringing it up, for your own sake.

Nothing like that is ever stated about Planet Vegeta. Why are you using statements for the gravity chamber for planet Vegeta?

HE CAN LIFT LIKE A CONTINENT WHAT

Like really,


This scan alone proves Zebes doesnt have 1000g, argument shouldve ended with that.

Cranky Kong can't lift a continent because he has a cane. Or at least, that's your argument for Old Bird, right?

 

[SamanPatou]

Guys, to add something to my previous post, is there anything supporting the heightened gravity?

Because so far I've seen a list of contradictions to the notion of high gravity (which once again comes from a fan calc) and in response possible explanations and compromises for why these contradictions could be accomodated, but to me it seems that the burden of proof lies on those claiming that 960x gravity should be considered although unsupported by solid material.

 

[Armorchompy]

That docking station was in the vacuum of space. Also, she literally walks through a depressurized room with no changes, just a few moments later?

Anyways, as proved before, it has gravity.

Hey I'm not the one arguing it had to be fully realistic, I'm just pointing it wasn't realistic by the statement in the op's standards either and its a bunk point because of that.

You didn't actually address my argument.

Actually, a lot of the structure did survive, the roof only came down when the bomb sucked everything in.

Nitpicking. Not going to be addressing further arguments about something that is factually false.

"Yeah this random alien with zero strength feats can casually lift 10000 tons and doesn't even remark on the weight when first landing" isn't a smaller assumption than "Dragon Ball writers didn't know the implications of the planetary weight they wrote down".

Now, you're not gonna believe this...

Not resistance, but "Adapted to X gravity" would be most common. Just a quick look and I've noticed most Dragon Ball Saiyan characters and Mega man have it.

Unrelated verses mentioned = ignored. Make a real argument next time.

I'm not expecting an update, unless of course, you're trying to connect to a different version of the lore. But with the site defunct and all, we're probably not gonna go further with this point so I'll drop it.

Ok thanks for the concession, now that we don't know Zebes' radius we just assume one befitting of its huge mass and the gravity drops all the way to like, 4x.

The issue is that it's relative to Earth, that's what they were comparing it to in the description. There's also masssssive leaps in logic here; lead is decently heavy and is common on our crust, is the density of the Earth that of lead?

Lead is above average in weight = the density of Earth's crust is lesser than that of lead, Bendezium is above average in weight = the density of Tallon IV's crust is lesser than that of lead

And no it makes literally zero sense to assume that something is way less dense than the rest of the planet when the only statements we have on it are that it's pretty heavy, nobody says "this material is very dense" when everything else in the planet is 300x denser.

You ask a single person if Samus had the gravity feature in Super Metroid, they'd laugh at the idea. It is absolutely headcanon to assume otherwise.

The Gravity Feature IS THE GRAVITY SUIT, they just retconned how it functioned because they didn't like the purple! They even say it's the Gravity Suit in interviews, it's literally just a design + name change that was quickly rolled back because it was a stupid idea, but it's the same thing. We literally even have the Smash Bros (yes, "noncanon", but it's still Nintendo material, they know what they're talking about) calling the MOM GF "Gravity Suit".

That's perfectly fine, even that minor difference in that assumption isn't reflected in Samus' jumps or anything, is it? Also it straight up says its affecting the Phendrana area.

Literally nothing proves that it's potent enough that could be visibly reflected in gameplay, and that would not be the default assumption. Sorry, this argument is really weak and I will ignore any further attempts at stonewalling.

Honestly man, we could keep going around but you're just ignoring actual evidence by trying to hang on to tiny nitpicks and random assumptions as to why they don't count. Like it doesn't matter if you can maybe possibly argue that Joey arguably tanked a gravity bomb (he didn't), Samus did 100% survive just fine on 960x gravity and that is still a massive hole in the present assumption, they don't cancel out.

Saman's got the right idea. This is just a bunch of bullshit being spewed trying to keep complete headcanon in place. If you want to show that it's a real thing, go and actually prove to me that it is based on any FACTUAL evidence (not random theories or potential assumptions) besides the Observatory statements, I'll be waiting.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

All this because someone at Retro Studios wrote something without checking the mass of real life planets first.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean it's probably because English uses the short scale instead of the long scale. Either way as you pointed out, it's still different, your evidence contradicts each other. The 'translation' isn't even the actual translation of what is said, but instead in numerical form.

Thanks for explaining the issue.

Yeah, it's crazy huh. Probably not as crazy as the vacuum of space being 2.5 g though, which is the biggest part of this argument?

Your argument, just proved in that very scene they showcase a discrepancy in gravity, yet they don't for these ALLEGED giga grav planets.

Also, the Feds go back to Aether after its mass is restored, it would crush them at 2.5g, much moreso at 5g. So clearly, the in-games physics are just gameplay mechanics, right?

What no it wouldnt? 2.5g is bad, but trained peak human pilots can withstand that...
And no they dont? They die, unless you mean post prime 2, in which, we have no idea how. Hell maybe they used armor idk, either way.

And why are you assuming 2.5g? Yet arguing Tallon is 900g? When they'd be the same if your taking 2.5g as legit. Your arguments dont even align.

I can see the issue with the POV change. Either way she jumps between the sub chamber layers to escape Metroid Prime's explosion, which is a significant height here.

And also less than the space jump
In a stronger suit too

There's probably more examples of Samus jumping heights that are near or higher than the jump in space anyways, so I'm not sure why this is a point.

Sure as **** not in Prime.
The game, in her weakest suit mind you having the BIGGEST JUMP in the whole game, by multiple times, while even her best jump in her best suit otherwise pales, is a pretty good indication that hey, we can actually see the gravity at play, ie, your point here not gonna fly.

And yes, suit, the suit's amp strength, as stated in Dread and stuff.

Samus avoided even using her weapons to not damage Diesel and the building, all of the destruction including the ceiling came from the gravity bomb- how is this so hard to understand. Post a single picture of the scan being destroyed because of something else, or the ceiling falling after the damage to the building, please.

We did, like 5 times, are you doing this on purpose? Yeah no shit she doesnt want to, why would she want to blow the shop to shit or risk collateral


She's pretty careful all throughout S&J, against U-Ton, against him, etc, she avoids blowing shit up when she can, even yaps at Joey for it a few times.

Yeah it all came from the gravity bomb, because it did THIS


Do I need to circle it for you? Why arent you even replying to the arguments? Why ya ignoring shit like this?


Do you not see this? We can see on the metal where it extends to, or ya know, the giant grav AOE ball that cratered the ground?

Joey didnt tank the bomb. Not up for debate.

You're right, I concede on the Metroid Prime website. I agree now. However, in doing so, you realize the guide contradicts the size on the website too, right? Now both the size and mass are different, so its clearly retconned to hell.

You literally just explained the discrepancy?
And no nice try, if we use the website, that shit aint ultra mega dense.

You literally argued that sandstone was the average last post and talking about how we could calc the average density from that:

"We know what's above average, we know a dense one, we know not above average ones. By proxy, we know what the average material on Tallon DOESNT weighs. We can figure out an approximate average based on the values and info given, basic grade 3 math."

So yes, you were. No need to strawman here.

Reading comprehension my dude...
"We know what's above average, we know a dense one, we know not above average ones",
is me mentioning 3 values, nowhere do I say what you're implying.

And stop trying to be smart and just repeating what I say, it just makes you look bad man, you know better.

The slow gravity part was regarding Sheer Heart Attack, I think you might have gotten that confused.

Doesnt matter, literally better than what Samus did yet he dont get it, I can list more if ya want?

Point is, we, the wiki, dont do that anymore.

No one is ever gonna take a German mistranslation likely caused being long scale over the Japanese, English, and Spanish versions, much less when other versions of the German translation also disagree with it. Legit try this on any other thread, pull up a contradicting German translation to anything.

Why are you ignoring Nintendo doesnt work like some comic or anime, german is like, legit the 3rd main subsidary.
Secondly, German is a "conversion" fucky, but ENG isnt?
Why the double standards, for the mass that actually makes sense and is corroborated no less. Do you not get this?
You have NOTHING actually corroborating your claim. Ive asked thrice for evidence and you havent, just saying the values dont mean shit, im saying prove the fancalc derived from it is.

You know the site also gives Tallon IV the same mass right? I've been waiting for either of you to mention that, crazy convenient how it doesn't seem to happen.

Huh? Yeah, so? That's dumb as shit too? You realize this thread is for both right? If Zebes is 100% wrong, Tallon would be too, if for no reason beyond Zebes being wrong proves they just yapping and it aint reliable method to obtain gravity as they both from the same source with nigh identical bull values.

A bunch of the antifeats apply to still as well, like S&J sam going "wow the water pressure to heavy, i cant move properly", on a 1g planet with a normal human town like on the beach

What on Earth are you talking about, nothing like that is ever stated about Planet Vegeta.

They say it's 10g literally all the time, what are you on about?

Are you confusing King Kai's planet or the gravity chamber for planet Vegeta?

Are you? King Kai's planet is 10g, and he directly mentions it's the same as Planet Vegeta.
The Gravity Chamber is extremely explicitly, Dr Brief even yaps to Vegeta about how much he'd weigh under certain G's.

DBZ actively states its planet's G's, and adheres to it consistently, and even gravity fuckery as a whole, that's what Metroid SHOULD be doing, not the same as a fancalc.

Cranky Kong can't lift a continent because he has a cane. Or at least, that's your argument for Old Bird, right?

Cranky cant no, why the hell would he?
And I dont give a damn about Cranky (not true he's awesome), are you actually saying Old Bird, can jump 10000m and lift 1000 tons? Hell why didnt he just get Samus' bag back from PyochI by jumping? Why say "yeah i cant fly, uh, try being nice ig?".


Im not asking again, show actual evidence that it has stupid high gravity despite the super blatant inexcusable contradictions like literally the most important event in Metroid as a whole. Saying "well they say the mass" is quite LITERALLY the point of contention, except not even, the fact the GRAVITY, that's outright contradicted, is just a fancalc, from a mass they likely know next to nothing about, means "yeah bad".
Give proper corroboration, if you cant, im not even going to bother to reply next time.

 

[SomebodyData]

Guys, to add something to my previous post, is there anything supporting the heightened gravity?

Because so far I've seen a list of contradictions to the notion of high gravity (which once again comes from a fan calc) and in response possible explanations and compromises for why these contradictions could be accomodated, but to me it seems that the burden of proof lies on those claiming that 960x gravity should be considered although unsupported by solid material.

Right now, it is two sources: the Metroid website and Metroid Prime's in-game description.

I would have to question why the counterarguments are being considered 'solid materials' though? Since when have we used the German translation, of all things, over the native translation or game mechanics for any verse?

 

[Chariot190]

Right now, it is two sources: the Metroid website and Metroid Prime's in-game description.

That isnt a source for gravity, it's a source for mass, the former of which also lists off materials that aren't 1000kg/cm^3 as being above average for the planet.

I would have to question why the counterarguments are being considered 'solid materials' though? Since when have we used the German translation, of all things, over the native translation or game mechanics for any verse?

My brother in christ, that isnt the main argument, it's one of a bunch of "hmm makes ya think?".

Why can a toddler walk around in 960g? (Note that if you cant give an actual reason for this, it's gonna be tossed anyway).
Why does nothing ever make mention of the G in a verse that likes to yap about such details? Why does no game ever reflect it it any way but does for other grav stuff? What about anti-feats like water pressure that's been stated no less by Samus herself?

Like come on dude, show us proof the fancalc is legit.

 

[SomebodyData]

Anyways, as proved before, it has gravity.

What are you talking about, where did you prove the vacuum of space and a literal depressurized room has gravity?

You didn't actually address my argument.

Because your argument makes no sense - how are you going to argue that the in-game physics mechanics disproves Tallon's gravity- while said in-game mechanics are not the level of gravity you're suggesting?

Nitpicking. Not going to be addressing further arguments about something that is factually false.

I've tried explaining this several times already:

Samus and Joey avoided damaging the building during the fight to protect Diesel. There was no damage to the building's structure prior to the gravity bomb.

We see Joey and Diesel begin to get sucked in and fall at the bottom of the page when the gravity bomb is first used:

We then see them fall the next page, alongside the entire ceiling as a result:

We literally see Joey and Diesel begin to get sucked in and fall

Unrelated verses mentioned = ignored. Make a real argument next time.

It's called a comparison / example, it's used in arguments to show a standard or precedent.

Ok thanks for the concession, now that we don't know Zebes' radius we just assume one befitting of its huge mass and the gravity drops all the way to like, 4x.

The concession was that the website should be allowed, so we do know the size of Tallon IV. What did you think I was conceding to?...

Lead is above average in weight = the density of Earth's crust is lesser than that of lead, Bendezium is above average in weight = the density of Tallon IV's crust is lesser than that of lead

And no it makes literally zero sense to assume that something is way less dense than the rest of the planet when the only statements we have on it are that it's pretty heavy, nobody says "this material is very dense" when everything else in the planet is 300x denser.

That is such a massive jump in logic that I don't know where to begin. You cannot apply the density of one material (Which again, is extremely dense by Earth standards not Tallon IV as the section was comparing the environment's to the Earth), to an entire planet. How is this not easy to understand?

The Gravity Feature IS THE GRAVITY SUIT, they just retconned how it functioned because they didn't like the purple! They even say it's the Gravity Suit in interviews, it's literally just a design + name change that was quickly rolled back because it was a stupid idea, but it's the same thing. We literally even have the Smash Bros (yes, "noncanon", but it's still Nintendo material, they know what they're talking about) calling the MOM GF "Gravity Suit".

I know about the Iwata Asks interview and I know why they replaced the suit. I'm saying that's besides the point; it was replaced, that's it. The reason why the developers replaced it doesn't matter; author's intent has never been an accepted argument here.

If you know Smash is non-canon, then why bring it up?

Literally nothing proves that it's potent enough that could be visibly reflected in gameplay, and that would not be the default assumption. Sorry, this argument is really weak and I will ignore any further attempts at stonewalling.

Honestly man, we could keep going around but you're just ignoring actual evidence by trying to hang on to tiny nitpicks and random assumptions as to why they don't count. Like it doesn't matter if you can maybe possibly argue that Joey arguably tanked a gravity bomb (he didn't), Samus did 100% survive just fine on 960x gravity and that is still a massive hole in the present assumption, they don't cancel out.

Saman's got the right idea. This is just a bunch of bullshit being spewed trying to keep complete headcanon in place. If you want to show that it's a real thing, go and actually prove to me that it is based on any FACTUAL evidence (not random theories or potential assumptions) besides the Observatory statements, I'll be waiting.

How do you expect 960x gravity to be reflected in the actual gameplay?

Hell, your own proposed gravity isn't even in the in-game physics engine either.

Just so we're clear, the Retro-Is-Wrong theory is a popular fan-theory however not canon.

How are you going to argue anyone needs factual evidence, when half the arguments here are:

"Can't be 960g gravity, because a superpowered alien needs a cane to walk around?" (Chariot's not your's, but I'm actually tired of this)

"Can't be 960g gravity, because the planet has cliffs?"

"Can't be 960g gravity, because the in-game engine is running at 2.5g?"

Never before have I unironically seen a staff member argue game physics mechanics as canon, that's something mostly new members would propose.

 

[SomebodyData]

That isnt a source for gravity, it's a source for mass, the former of which also lists off materials that aren't 1000kg/cm^3 as being above average for the planet.

My brother in christ, that isnt the main argument, it's one of a bunch of "hmm makes ya think?".

Why can a toddler walk around in 960g? (Note that if you cant give an actual reason for this, it's gonna be tossed anyway).
Why does nothing ever make mention of the G in a verse that likes to yap about such details? Why does no game ever reflect it it any way but does for other grav stuff? What about anti-feats like water pressure that's been stated no less by Samus herself?

Like come on dude, show us proof the fancalc is legit.

If the wiki's standards require a certain level of actual representation of the gravity on the planet, I'll be fine with that. 960g is the gravity of Zebes, but we can't use it by the wiki's standards, that's completely fine and understandable.

The issue is the arguments being made here are non-sensical. You cannot expect to accept a fan-theory as canon, even though I PERSONALLY subscribe to that. You shouldn't be using the literal in-game physics engine as proof. You shouldn't be using the damn German translation (like seriously, what in the world???) as the main canon. Etc, etc.

On a side-note, Armor said that the Orpheon has gravity, the Space Pirates can manip gravity, why wouldn't the chozo? Hell, we already know they manipulate gravity, thanks to the gravity suit. I didn't bring it up as a reason for why toddler Samus can survive for a limited time, because it would technically be an assumption. But how the hell is that an assumption, but the Orpheon having gravity not?

 

[Chariot190]

If the wiki's standards require a certain level of actual representation of the gravity on the planet, I'll be fine with that. 960g is the gravity of Zebes, but we can't use it by the wiki's standards, that's completely fine and understandable.

Then why are you arguing, you're on the wiki.

The issue is the arguments being made here are non-sensical.

No, they aren't, just because you, somehow, can't understand what the hell


That entails, is nobody's fault but your own

You cannot expect to accept a fan-theory as canon, even though I PERSONALLY subscribe to that.

You are literally using a ******* fancalc as if it's canon.
We gave a possible explanation for the discrepancy, whether or not it's true doesn't matter.

Hell Retro could be 100% aware of what it entailed, it wouldn't matter because it isn't consistent.

You shouldn't be using the literal in-game physics engine as proof.

Yes, the physics engine that never once, in any game, ever, insinuates high gravity, shouldnt be used to go "hey this fuckass fancalc might be headcanon".
The physics game engine that reflects gravity attacks, pressure and so on 90% of the time, in a game where there's even a whole ass grav neg feature they could easily tie in, somehow doesnt count as a check against why your headcanon is just that?

You shouldn't be using the damn German translation (like seriously, what in the world???) as the main canon. Etc, etc.

We aren't, it's more "hey even a main subside says this, consistent with older lore too, and isnt, ya know, blatantly contradicted".
It's a cherry on top, not the main point.

On a side-note, Armor said that the Orpheon has gravity, the Space Pirates can manip gravity, why wouldn't the chozo?

Because they never say that, show that, and is conjecture, just to justify a FANCALC.

And no, you showed they actually didnt and it's just within the ship, as expected.

What, you wanna argue the Chozo secretly set the effective gravity on Zebes to 1g so Samus didnt instantly die the moment she set foot on the planet? Cool, that'd still downgrade everything given they'd be dealing with 1g not 1000g due to this never mentioned or implied chozo tech.

Hell, we already know they manipulate gravity, thanks to the gravity suit.

A suit, yes. The only thing they ever shown, was a suit. Did they put Samus in one so she didnt instantly die? They had a toddler sized grav suit just laying around?

I didn't bring it up as a reason for why toddler Samus can survive for a limited time, because it would technically be an assumption. But how the hell is that an assumption, but the Orpheon having gravity not?

What the hell are you talking about?
Listen very carefully now.

Post actual, hard evidence, of the gravity.
And post an actual hard confirmed non headcanon assumption as to why a mere child can survive on Zebes.

if you can not do that, sucks to suck, but ya dont have any say here, youre just making excuses to justify something that isnt even said.

 

[Deagonx]

You cannot apply the density of one material (Which again, is extremely dense by Earth standards not Tallon IV as the section was comparing the environment's to the Earth), to an entire planet. How is this not easy to understand?

It's pretty straightforward. The website from which the radius is gathered in the first place says of Zebes: "composition: Urthic ore." Yet if your stance is correct, the planet must be primarily composed of a material several hundred times denser than Urthic Ore, which is itself described as "extremely dense." This is just another indication that the unit of measurement was mistaken.

The point, broadly, is that nothing actually supports the fan-calc beyond this weight, which is contradicted by an official guide and multiple events. You are trying to explain away every contradiction, but occam's razor says "they got the unit wrong, the earlier guidebook was correct. They didn't mean 4.8x10^24 tons, they meant 4.8x10^24kg." Saves you the trouble of tying yourself in knots over all of this, at the small price of not pretending every feat on this planet is 1,000x greater than it actually is.

 

[SomebodyData]

It's pretty straightforward. The website from which the radius is gathered in the first place says of Zebes: "composition: Urthic ore." Yet if your stance is correct, the planet must be primarily composed of a material several hundred times denser than Urthic Ore, which is itself described as "extremely dense." This is just another indication that the unit of measurement was mistaken.

The point, broadly, is that nothing actually supports the fan-calc beyond this weight, which is contradicted by an official guide and multiple events. You are trying to explain away every contradiction, but occam's razor says "they got the unit wrong, the earlier guidebook was correct. They didn't mean 4.8x10^24 tons, they meant 4.8x10^24kg." Saves you the trouble of tying yourself in knots over all of this, at the small price of not pretending every feat on this planet is 1,000x greater than it actually is.

We... don't have the density of Urthic ore? I think you mean Bendezium which can be found with Urthic ore (In the same website, it even states that Urthic ore makes up 85% of the crust, showing bendezium is extremely small in comparsion). Also the extremely dense statement was made in comparison to Earth's materials; they even mention Brinstone, which is even denser than bendezium and is only above average.

The earlier guidebook is also wrong by the website you're using, I hope you noticed that.

 

[Armorchompy]

What are you talking about, where did you prove the vacuum of space and a literal depressurized room has gravity?

It has gravity because we see it has gravity. I am not arguing this any further,

I've tried explaining this several times already:

Samus and Joey avoided damaging the building during the fight to protect Diesel. There was no damage to the building's structure prior to the gravity bomb.

We see Joey and Diesel begin to get sucked in and fall at the bottom of the page when the gravity bomb is first used:

We then see them fall the next page, alongside the entire ceiling as a result:

We literally see Joey and Diesel begin to get sucked in and fall

We see them fall because the environment is torn around them, they don't fall into the bomb itself.

It's called a comparison / example, it's used in arguments to show a standard or precedent.

Yes, and it's completely worthless thanks to different context between verses.

That is such a massive jump in logic that I don't know where to begin. You cannot apply the density of one material (Which again, is extremely dense by Earth standards not Tallon IV as the section was comparing the environment's to the Earth), to an entire planet. How is this not easy to understand?

"By Earth standards" prove it. Prove that this network whose purpose is tracking one solar system's planets, all of which have similarly inflated mass, is using Earth standards rather than the standards of it.

I know about the Iwata Asks interview and I know why they replaced the suit. I'm saying that's besides the point; it was replaced, that's it. The reason why the developers replaced it doesn't matter; author's intent has never been an accepted argument here.

We don't use "author intent", because it has to be guessed. We do use "word of god", because it is stated. This is stated. We use it.

Let's just go back to the beginning, it is STATED (whoa the magic word!!) by her SUIT that the Gravity Suit "allows for improved movement in liquid environments", which makes no ******* sense if you say she has no issue in them before. Even if you throw together the world's most ramshackle argument to say she didn't pick it up in this one game the actual function remains, and only makes sense based on my interpretation.

If you know Smash is non-canon, then why bring it up?

Because it's data written by Nintendo that states clearly Feature = Suit? It's the same as a website or an interview giving an out-of-verse statement about any item in the franchise.

Because your argument makes no sense - how are you going to argue that the in-game physics mechanics disproves Tallon's gravity- while said in-game mechanics are not the level of gravity you're suggesting?

How do you expect 960x gravity to be reflected in the actual gameplay?

Hell, your own proposed gravity isn't even in the in-game physics engine either.

I never actually claimed Tallon had Earth gravity, I claimed it didn't have 960x gravity (or well, close enough), which it doesn't.

How are you going to argue anyone needs factual evidence, when half the arguments here are:

You need factual evidence because:

1. You have done a dogshit job at disproving any of my actual claims, instead going "ooh ooh but look at this unrelated thing! i can construe it as a potential mild inconsistency" which in no way contrasts the obvious clarity of the opposed showings, which include:
   1. Characters with no super strength walking on the surface of Zebes with explicit statements that the environment isn't modified to fit their needs.
   2. Samus struggling with much lesser pressure in both manga and games (and you can NOT claim "game mechanics" for the latter because it is necessary to several plotlines and "game mechanics" isn't a magic wand you can wave at anything that happens in gameplay to make it go away)
      1. And have as backing (Backing = secondary argument that strengthens, and does not replace, the primary argument) that nothing ever contrasts them, nowhere is the gravity ever shown to be a thing, neither in gameplay, nor in cutscenes, nor in side media.
2. The gravity isn't even real! It's made up, it's a fan calc derived from some random data, it's not an actual piece of worldbuilding that's ever addressed or backed up by anything in the actual series.
   1. Said calculation is based on dubiously canon (according to you) planet size that is now entirely lost media and by our rules, entirely unusable.

It's a random assumption with no backing and plenty of evidence against it. You have failed to make convincing arguments or to gather significant support. Unless either changes, I will be closing this thread in precisely 24 hours.

 

[SomebodyData]

Then why are you arguing, you're on the wiki.

The issue, is instead of saying that (Also its not an official rule, I was just suggesting it would be a sensible rule), you guys literally provide a fan theory as canon and go off the deep end using german translations and smash bros (not you, but armor earlier)

No, they aren't, just because you, somehow, can't understand what the hell


That entails, is nobody's fault but your own

That's not the non-sensical arguments lmao. I'm talking about the weird shit about using german translations, the planets having cliffs, and the fact someone has a cane.

I even state that Samus is the only sensible anti-feat at the beginning of the thread.

You are literally using a ******* fancalc as if it's canon.
We gave a possible explanation for the discrepancy, whether or not it's true doesn't matter.

Hell Retro could be 100% aware of what it entailed, it wouldn't matter because it isn't consistent.

OP literally provided and admitted it was a theory, one that anyone could look at and see several assumptions with.

Yes, the physics engine that never once, in any game, ever, insinuates high gravity, shouldnt be used to go "hey this fuckass fancalc might be headcanon".
The physics game engine that reflects gravity attacks, pressure and so on 90% of the time, in a game where there's even a whole ass grav neg feature they could easily tie in, somehow doesnt count as a check against why your headcanon is just that?

We aren't, it's more "hey even a main subside says this, consistent with older lore too, and isnt, ya know, blatantly contradicted".
It's a cherry on top, not the main point.

Because they never say that, show that, and is conjecture, just to justify a FANCALC.

Name one physics engine that actually displays the gravity of the Earth in any video game franchise, much less an alien planet. It's insane to even suggest using the in-game physics engine gravity. (And that would be 2.5g anyways, which isn't what you guys are arguing for)

Also the guide blantantly contradicts the website you keep using, which literally has the same mass for Tallon IV as the game.

And no, you showed they actually didnt and it's just within the ship, as expected.

What, you wanna argue the Chozo secretly set the effective gravity on Zebes to 1g so Samus didnt instantly die the moment she set foot on the planet? Cool, that'd still downgrade everything given they'd be dealing with 1g not 1000g due to this never mentioned or implied chozo tech.

A suit, yes. The only thing they ever shown, was a suit. Did they put Samus in one so she didnt instantly die? They had a toddler sized grav suit just laying around?

Here's the link to the depressurized room, again. Also insane, how you guys keep giving the space pirates gravity manip via the ship, but the chozo who invented the gravity suit - no that's too far.

What the hell are you talking about?
Listen very carefully now.

Post actual, hard evidence, of the gravity.
And post an actual hard confirmed non headcanon assumption as to why a mere child can survive on Zebes.

if you can not do that, sucks to suck, but ya dont have any say here, youre just making excuses to justify something that isnt even said.

The Metroid Prime scan:

"Planet Tallon IV
Mass: 5.1 trillion teratons.

Profile: Ecosystem studies indicate that Tallon IV was a biological paradise prior to the impact of an extraterrestrial object. What remains of the biosphere is slowly fading due to exposure to Phazon radiation. At current rate of decay, Tallon IV will be a barren Class XIII wasteland in approximately 25 years."

The Metroid website:

"object type: Planet
mass: 5.1 trillion teratons
dimensions: 13,400 km diameter
sentient inhabitants: 0
composition: metallic
"A Wanderer-Class planet, Tallon IV is one of two worlds within the Tallon system capable of sustaining life. Tallon IV follows an unusual retrograde orbit of 4.3 standard millicycles. Orbiting 778,000,000 km from the only star within the system, Tallon IV was at one time a main outpost of the Chozo. For reasons as of yet not completely understood, the Chozo civilization on this planet became extinct. The planet possesses an abundance of an energy source known as 'phazon'.

A spiritual people, the Tallon IV Chozo lived peacefully on the planet leaving much of it unspoiled and technology-free. Over 150 millicycles ago, a large meteor collided with the planet, destroying everything within a 500 km radius and spraying an enormous plume of rock and debris into the atmosphere. The meteor was vaporized on impact, and jettisoned large quantities of impact debris, including a large quantity of some unknown material, into the atmosphere. This material, 'phazon', as it has been called in intercepted Space Pirate transmissions, created widespread destruction. Remnants of the debris still circle the planet in close orbit and during the last GFP survey, the impact site was still emitting high energy levels. The Chozo attempted to control the spread of radiation, creating a containment structure over the impact site. While the environmental effects of the impact were mitigated, it was too late for the Chozo who apparently succumbed to the ill effects of the deadly 'phazon' released by the collision.

Though oxygen-rich and capable of sustaining life, Tallon IV has remained uninhabited since the demise of the Chozo."

 

[SomebodyData]

Honestly this thread would have probably ended in your guys' favor a lot earlier had it just been the anti-feat with toddler Samus and not tried bringing out German translations, gameplay mechanics, and the fan-theory at the end. Nevermind, trying to use Smash Bros as a part of the argument or a superhuman bird having a cane as evidence.

 

[Deagonx]

I mean, yes, the discussion would've been shorter if they didn't bring up a bunch of the supporting evidence.

 

[Chariot190]

The issue, is instead of saying that (Also its not an official rule, I was just suggesting it would be a sensible rule), you guys literally provide a fan theory as canon and go off the deep end using german translations and smash bros (not you, but armor earlier)

Proof.

That's not the non-sensical arguments lmao. I'm talking about the weird shit about using german translations, the planets having cliffs, and the fact someone has a cane.

Missing the point^3.

I even state that Samus is the only sensible anti-feat at the beginning of the thread.

Then you know it's dumb so stop wasting time.

OP literally provided and admitted it was a theory, one that anyone could look at and see several assumptions with.

Dude, that's like 90% what happened, it being a theory doesnt mean it doesnt have merit, when talking about a FANCALC.

Name one physics engine that actually displays the gravity of the Earth in any video game franchise,

The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom has extremely accurate gravity, freefall, acceleration, throwing and arrow drop off physics, at a literal 9.8m/s^2 at that.

much less an alien planet.

dk, deadspace?

It's insane to even suggest using the in-game physics engine gravity. (And that would be 2.5g anyways, which isn't what you guys are arguing for)

Missing the point^4.

Also the guide blantantly contradicts the website you keep using, which literally has the same mass for Tallon IV as the game.

Missing the point^5.

Here's the link to the depressurized room, again. Also insane, how you guys keep giving the space pirates gravity manip via the ship, but the chozo who invented the gravity suit - no that's too far.

"A space station is the same as a whole planet and open areas!"
Even by this headcanon, every gravity feat gets negged because they were done under 1g if the birds just so happened to alter the gravity.

And no, not how this works, you dont get to make up shit to justify something you havent even proven is true to begin with. That's a self-fulfilling argument.

The Metroid Prime scan:

"Planet Tallon IV
Mass: 5.1 trillion teratons.

Profile: Ecosystem studies indicate that Tallon IV was a biological paradise prior to the impact of an extraterrestrial object. What remains of the biosphere is slowly fading due to exposure to Phazon radiation. At current rate of decay, Tallon IV will be a barren Class XIII wasteland in approximately 25 years."

What a paradise, kills most animals on contact.

The Metroid website:

snip

Prove it's 1000g, nothing there says as much. In fact it says shit that implies otherwise.

Honestly this thread would have probably ended in your guys' favor a lot earlier had it just been the anti-feat with toddler Samus and not tried bringing out German translations, gameplay mechanics, and the fan-theory at the end. Nevermind, trying to use Smash Bros as a part of the argument or a superhuman bird having a cane as evidence.

Old Burd like 10-C ngl.
And yeah, it would've ended a lot sooner if ya didn't try to argue the most pivotal moment in Metroid as a whole somehow wasnt good enough evidence to shoot down a unsupported fancalc

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with the OP.

 

[SomebodyData]

Look I'mma just concede here, I don't think I'll be changing any minds.

Although it was nice debating again, Chariot and Armor, clearly we disagree on things but at the end of the day we've all been fans for years so it's good to see ya still here

 

[JJSliderman]

I guess every Metroid thread is just destined to be a little controversial, I’ll keep that in mind when I make one.

 

[Armorchompy]

Look I'mma just concede here, I don't think I'll be changing any minds.

Although it was nice debating again, Chariot and Armor, clearly we disagree on things but at the end of the day we've all been fans for years so it's good to see ya still here

That's fair, sorry to see things got a little heated

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know I said I was righting up something Monday night. But yeah, work stress combined with health issues; both physically and mentally made it feel like a bad time to get between a heated debate. But now that the thread is slowly but surely settling down, I may make just one rebuttal (I do not expect to convince anyone; however, I still wish to have them heard none of the less when I am ready).

But somewhere between later this night after work, or sometime tomorrow evening when I'm off work (And when I am not occupied with RL personal tasks), I will make one post attempting to tackle most things brought up. But probably won't actively argue against it after that.

 

[JJSliderman]

Oh, right, this would also nerf the Leviathans.

 

[Armorchompy]

I know I said I was righting up something Monday night. But yeah, work stress combined with health issues; both physically and mentally made it feel like a bad time to get between a heated debate. But now that the thread is slowly but surely settling down, I may make just one rebuttal (I do not expect to convince anyone; however, I still wish to have them heard none of the less when I am ready).

But somewhere between later this night after work, or sometime tomorrow evening when I'm off work (And when I am not occupied with RL personal tasks), I will make one post attempting to tackle most things brought up. But probably won't actively argue against it after that.

I did say I was going to close the thread but I can wait a bit, I'll probably type up a response to it when that's out, and I guess leave it open for a bit after that. Will not engage in much debate after that though, since discussion has mostly petered out.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Ngl this was a hard thread to read. Some personal attacks and toxicity and just general conceited behavior displayed here. More so by one particular person. You can disagree respectfully it's not that hard.

 

[Chariot190]

I guess every Metroid thread is just destined to be a little controversial, I’ll keep that in mind when I make one.

Not really, just dont assume a bunch of shit and it'd be fine.

Ngl this was a hard thread to read. Some personal attacks and toxicity and just general conceited behavior displayed here. More so by one particular person. You can disagree respectfully it's not that hard.

Literally nobody made any personal attacks.
Literally nobody was being conceited (how would you even tell? that's just being presumptuous).

If you have nothing of value to add except stirring the proverbial pot, don't.

 

[Armorchompy]

I know I said I was righting up something Monday night. But yeah, work stress combined with health issues; both physically and mentally made it feel like a bad time to get between a heated debate. But now that the thread is slowly but surely settling down, I may make just one rebuttal (I do not expect to convince anyone; however, I still wish to have them heard none of the less when I am ready).

But somewhere between later this night after work, or sometime tomorrow evening when I'm off work (And when I am not occupied with RL personal tasks), I will make one post attempting to tackle most things brought up. But probably won't actively argue against it after that.

Not to be hasty, but is this still happening?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not to be hasty, but is this still happening?

Yeah, probably in about 6-8 hours or so.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll start with the crux of what I wish to argue, that being our policy on Canon. Which I'll simply quote some important paragraphs and bold some very specific statements.

The primary canon is the source material first released (with few possible exceptions), with the other author works being secondary canon.

When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon.

If the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons any of these can be used to judge the feat. Should different results be reached by judging the feat through multiple canons, the result of the primary canon will have priority.

Why is all this relevant? Because simply put, Retro Studios is a North American company that is owned by a much bigger Japanese company, aka Nintendo. It's up to debate which version would be the primary canon, but I can rest assured it is one of those two. It was developed in North America, making NA the OG manuscript with everything else being merely adaptations. But it can be argued it is Nintendo of Japan who is the ultimate authority. But at the end of the day, it is safest to say the NA version of Metroid Prime Remaster that is the primary canon. Remaster since it's the latest version that may have otherwise retconned older versions. But on to the sources of what the different versions say. Source here

• English: Planet Zebes. Mass: 4.8 trillion teratons.
• French: Planète Zèbes. Masse: 4,8 trillions de tératonnes
• German: Planet Zebes. Masse (kg): 4,8 x 10 hoch 24
• Spanish: Planeta Zebes. Masa: 4,8 trillones de teratons.
• Italian: Pianeta Zebes. Massa: 4,8 trilioni di teratoni.
• Japanese: 名称：惑星 ゼーベス。質量：4.8兆テラトン

And further down the line, there are three not listed here. Those being Korean, Dutch, Simplified Chinese, and Traditional Chinese. But as SomebodyData said, all versions save for German are very consistent at saying "Trillion Teratons." Also considering there exist more than one country that speak the same languages; Canada speaks French and English. Mexico also speaks Spanish as do many other countries. And as for English, we have the US, the UK, Australia, and others. But all of them use their respective countries definition of Trillion followed by Teraton.

But how much is that really. It's important to consider the difference between short scale and long scale numbers. Here in the US, we is short scale; billion = 10^9 and trillion equals 10^12. But in long scales, the latter is called Billion while the former is called Milliard. Billiard is what they call 10^15 and Trillion being 10^18; which in the US is Quadrillion and Quintillion respectively. In most of those countries, if they say trillion, they actually mean the 10^18 Teratons. The only odd one out here is the German localization. But most of those other European countries would technically advocate that the mass of Zebes is actually 4.8*10^33 kg but literary translation.

It would be a double standard and also to an extent expressing racial supremacy to only consider the German localization and not consider all the others. If Germany considered saying "Trillion Teratons" they'd also be on the list of what's actually Quintillion Teratons by American standards. We do not know the full story of why Germany decided to change it so much, but I'll talk more about then when I talk about the other 3 FS-176 planets besides Tallon IV and Zebes. But really, if they read Trillion Teratons, the general assumption is arguing against the 33 zeroes and not so much the 27 zeroes.

But given the other 8 languages across dozens of different countries still use Trillions of Teratons regardless of whether it's a country where trillion means 10^12 or 10^18, it means both of those are far more consistent than saying Gigatons as opposed to Teratons. Or saying 10^9 Teratons as opposed to Trillion; and if a European country said Billion as opposed to Trillion, it would just mean the exact same thing as the NA's Trillion Teraton result.

Now there are some languages that don't technically use either short scale or long scale, such as the far east. Japan just has simpler words, but there exists two different Japanese words than can translate to trillion. There is 兆 which means Trillion by US English and Billion by old UK English while 百京 is Trillion by old UK English and Quintillion by US English. Given the text 4.8兆テラトン which translates to 4.8 Trillion Teratons, it can safely be said that 兆 is used. Thus it is 4.8*10^12 teratons or 4.8*10^24 Metric tons or 4.8*10^27 for kg. So we have the Japanese version being consistent with our North American version.

Now on topic, allow me to copy the source from this page

Bilium
"Planet Bilium
Mass: 3.8 trillion teratons.

Profile: QUARANTINE
Atmosphere is rife with Miteralis, a sentient gaseous Global Exterminator virus."

Oormine II
"Planet Oormine II
Mass: 2.3 trillion teratons.

Profile: An uninhabitable wasteland savaged by nuclear dust storms and constant seismic upheavals."

Twin Tabula
"Planet Twin Tabula
Mass: 4.1 trillion teratons.

Profile: Planet is best known for 'Twin Fever', a disease caused by a viral strain native to Twin Tabula. In the early stages of the disease, victims suffer from double vision. When the 'twin sight' fades, the victim is near death."

Zebes
"Planet Zebes
Mass: 4.8 trillion teratons.

Profile: Planet's crust is primarily Urthic ore, making it ideal for subterranean construction. A class XIX planet, Zebes is inhospitable to most bioforms. The world was considered unremarkable until it became a base for Space Pirate forces."

Tallon IV
"Planet Tallon IV
Mass: 5.1 trillion teratons.

Profile: Ecosystem studies indicate that Tallon IV was a biological paradise prior to the impact of an extraterrestrial object. What remains of the biosphere is slowly fading due to exposure to Phazon radiation. At current rate of decay, Tallon IV will be a barren Class XIII wasteland in approximately 25 years."

The very first planet on the list Bilium, which would be FS-176's counter part to Mercury or 1st planet from the star, is described as a Gas Giant and other similar synonyms. And it would be consistent with having double the mass of Jupiter as is the notable hazards it is known for. The second appears to be the smallest on the list, and it's hard to interpret what "Nuclear Dust Storms" mean, but generally means its change in temperature is out of control thus goes back and forth between between extremely hot global warmings and super frosty global winters. Seismic Upheavals seems to refer to massive earthquakes happening left and right. And Twin Tabula is a poison heavy fever planet. But hey, we have at least one gas giant on the list; and some speculate Twin Tabula might also be a gas giant. So if there's a complaint about planets having crazy high density, I'd argue the opposite issue if Bilium was assumed to have less density than Hydrogen. Because sure German version lowered the mass of Zebes and Tallon IV a thousand fold, but they also did it to the other three planets to imply the mass of a gas giant is less than the likes of Venus or Earth and has less density than Hydrogen. There's going to be an error and levels of absurdity regardless of which version is preferred. Though, even I would agree 10^33 is the craziest interpretation on the list.

But at the end of the day, our goal is not to propose what sounds the most realistic, but it's to support whatever is the primary canon. But in the end, the North American version is the primary canon. It was developed by a North American company, supervised by an International Japanese company, but the NA is the OG version with everything else simply just being secondary canon at best that are just mere translation localizations. It being a different medium than manga stuff is not important; Viz Media English dubs are never more canon than original Japanese versions, but giving the German version pure favoritism is literally doing that. It's also the reason we consider other games canon. Luigi's Mansion 2 and 3 were developed in Canada with originally English speakers; which means that has NA as the primary canon and others as simply translated localizations. Which is why King Boo's "Collapsing the dimension feat" is canon because English is primary canon. Same with Sonic Adventure 2 and Shadow the Hedgehog. In SA2, Eclipse Cannon simply had a "Destroy the planet" description. When the Japanese text translated to "Piercing the star(s)". Lots of arguments where made being Pierce/Penetrate means the same thing while "Hoshi" can mean star or planet. Which lead a lot of older staff to think "Penetrating the planet" was the primary interpretation. But SoH which was not only canon, it was originally developed by Sega of America as opposed to Sega of Japan. The "Piercing the stars" statement was made, thus permanently deciding the canon. I'm not bringing this all up as a whataboutism, I am simply repeating our rules within the canon page; that this makes the most recent NA version the primary canon. And if someone truly wants to refute this, they're going to have to make a staff thread to revise our canon page.

Now that I argued primary canon, the mass is pretty blatant, so I many not be very blunt about the volume vs density stuff. But I will point out some flaws in the OP. To address issues with this quotation.

This one is a bit weird because it relies on information from the defunct Metroid Prime website, but so do the radii of Zebes/Tallon so claiming this information isn't canon also debunks the calc itself, so I'm mentioning it. According to the Observatory, "[Zebes]'s crust is primarily Urthic ore, making it ideal for subterranean construction.", and the website straight-up has a canonical atomic weight (65.332) listed for Bendezium, which is related to Urthic ore. This is above average but not too crazy. Titanium's, for example, is 47.867. Knowing that a planet is made of not hyper-dense materials is a very big knock against the claim that it's hyper-dense.

1. While it is contrived, one could claim that the gravity is coming from the remainder of the planet, and that Bendezium is simply the outlier in terms of weight. However, the website claims that "Bendezium is an extremely dense solid", thus making it very clear that it's on the higher end of material weights on the planet, not the opposite. There's also the fact that we have data on many other materials that make up the similarly allegedly super-heavy Tallon IV: these include Brinstone, "a stable solid with above average density" and a "compact atomic structure", at 99.987 atomic weight, Cordite, which is also fairly normal in weight, and Sandstone, which is actually a real-life material that they describe pretty accurately. So we know for sure that all of Tallon IV's makeup (as far as interactable materials go, but it'd be silly to assume those all just so happen to be the exception) is actually fairly normal in terms of density.

This may all sound good on paper, but in execution leaves out quite a bit of details. First of all, while the official atomic weight sounds like a step to support the idea of Zebes and Tallon IV being not as dense and thus indicating likelihood of great volume. But I can still take apart other flaws here. First of all, Bendezium is a rare substance compared to Urthic Ore, which clearly has an unknown density; we know over 85% of Zebes is made of Urthic, which means there is less than 15% remaining. Not that it matters as much since Bendezium is highlighted as a "Extremely Dense Solid", but other details.

Yes, Bendezium's atomic weight/molar mass is merely 65.332; there is no unite listed though the default is AMU or g/mol, but that makes me question what its atomic length/volume is? When trying to argue density, having a calculated atomic weight means little to nothing if there isn't an atomic volume or length to go with it. For example, you listed Titanium having an atomic mass of 47.867, which also as an atomic radius of 147 picometers. No such statement exists for Bendezium; for all we know, it could have an atomic radius that is merely a tenth of what Titanium is; thus a thousand times less volume. An object could have less atomic mass but still overall have far greater density given that the individual atoms could be smaller and thus having more counting numbers per cubic centimeter.

The same thing could be said for things like Brinstone; which honestly, this is actually one thing I could argue against SomebodyData for. He said it was more dense than Bendezium, but we don't actually know that for much of the same reason I argued. Atomic Weight is listed, not atomic length or volume. But it is "Above Average" where as Bendezium is outright referred to as extremely dense. Why they may not prove much, the fact that one has a more extravagant description implies it's more impressive than something simply described as "Above average."

Cordite also could be more or less the same thing as the other alloys where atomic weight is mentioned, not length but to a lesser extent; it's also obviously not the same thing as its real world counterpart. Sandstone, I got no defense and more or less does seem intended to just be regular Sandstone. But we do not know how much of Tallon IV is made of it; there's a big map full of it, but even that's miniscule compared to the rest of the planet.

But all in all, some reasonable concerns here and there, but using those sources means also using the website. Which gives us the radius of Zebes and by extension justifies the high gravity. It's a double edge sword all things considered. Though as said, I still brought up other concerns that could be counterarguments, there is still too much unknown while not other details are shared, there's still not enough to argue against the density given the other details. Having confirmed mass and confirmed diameter just means needing to plug it in here. Diameter is easy, but you can't plug mass in, only G's. But the lowest number with two decimals to get the 4.8 Trillion Teratons or 4.8*10^27 kg is 954.31. There you go. I know the website is too messy to give us length, but mass is still canon and given to us. But if we ever get our sources fully, this is confirmed all canon and just takes basic math to prove.

Now on to debates are am starting to dread even discussing.

1. Zebes and Tallon IV are never portrayed as having high gravity. This is the most obvious one. In both Super Metroid and Zero Mission we get to walk around on Zebes and Metroid Prime is all set on Tallon IV. While Samus' jump mechanics change pretty wildly between games in the series, it's all roughly close to real life physics. While one could excuse her being able to jump around as a strength feat (that she would indeed be capable of), she would still fall at increased speeds, and so would everything else. [Not posting scans cause like, I dunno, it's literally the entire games, look up a playthrough].
   1. Something worth noting is that Super Metroid starts you on the Ceres Space Colony, which being inhabited would have to have normal gravity, and the jump physics there are the exact same as they are on Zebes. Additionally, both the BSL Station in Metroid Fusion and the BOTTLE SHIP in Other M have both environments fit for humans and for replicating Zebes' environments, and in neither game is there any change in gravity between them.

Yeah... I am going to have to bluntly agree with SomebodyData here, albeit I also have other side reasons but people are still not going to like the way I say it. But yeah, in game physics are like almost never reliable. Because especially retro video games and retro inspired video games, almost nothing is ever drawn to scale properly. It's not just games guilty of this, but comics, cartoons, manga, and Anime as well. There's a lot of issues of houses tending to look way bigger on the inside than on the outside, in some cases, everyone looks exactly the same size despite a lot of things that factor height and size difference IRL. Lots of classic 8-Bit aesthetics would portray Danny DeVito and Shaquille O'Neal being the same height. And other cartoony art styles have the opposite issue, where the size of kids and adult difference is grossly exaggerated. Same thing applies for sprites being compared to various landmarks on the overworld which realistically should be having much bigger gaps.

But anyway, a programmer's biggest goal is to make a game playable just like it's an animator's job to make an animated scene watchable. Their job is not to be 100% pixel perfect with every little minor detail. But yeah, if Metroid game's portrayed 960 G's 100% realistically, the games would be Big Rigs Over the Road Racing levels of broken. It's very difficult to run at 30 or 60 let alone 240 FPS if the fall after a jump was just something that happens faster than the human eye could blink. Just think about it, would anyone who's not an Angry Video Game Nerd even want to play a game where you can't jump without falling super crazy fast to properly land a single jump? There are plenty of games that take place on Earth that ironically have gravity portrayed as 2 or 3 times heavier than Earth's. Likewise, there also exist games that take place on Earth, but gravity is like Moon level based on the physics. Or others are kind of a mix where it has a faster acceleration due to gravity but terminal velocity seems to be much lower than it has any right to be; where you just fall at a static velocity. And as SD said, Prime plays with 2.5x gravity in terms of in game physics; it is not evidence one way or the other. Though some argue it supporting evidence it was meant to be stronger than Earth, but avoids going all out with the 773 and 954 G's respectively to still make it playable. But I just see in game physics as irrelevant either way.

Also, Ceres Space Station having the same in game physics as Zebes in Super Metroid is living proof of how irrelevant in game physics is. Ceres only has like 3% the gravity of Earth, and pretty much anyone could leap over tall buildings in a single leap at that point. Or in my case specifically, I could probably push a fully loaded Big Ring. But yeah, SD already brought up other examples; now finally. There's the argument that, "Oh but story oriented video games have cutscenes and game mechanics can't apply to that." Actually, that's not entirely true. In a lot of modern video games, we are literally given fully animated cutscenes that use a completely different art style. Where the in game models are just sprites, but the animated cutscenes are often times exactly like an Anime or movie. But in the Metroid series or classic Mega Man style games, cutscenes are still things that use flash animations of their in game sprites. And the characters move and jump just like their in game counterparts due to being the same compressed pixels and moving along the video game's physics engine. Which only doubles down the various limitations of game mechanics in the first place.

And even outside of game mechanics, it does not argue against my other issue that being a common animation flaw. It is a common trope in animation that we see two crazy fast characters fighting in slow motion, when the rain drops in the background are falling at normal speed. Or when we see a couple dozen or more episodes passed, when only 5 short minutes pass in canon. Animation also can have a lot of similar flaws to games, where not everyone and everything is drawn to scale perfectly. Not to mention being so game breaking in other areas if she could jump so stupid high. There are a lot of game characters with Infinite/Immeasurable speed, who don't always use their crazy speed to get places on time, or to travel back in time to save plot important characters. Really, most Metroid related concerns are tame compared to others out there.

1. Zebes and Tallon IV's environments does not fit their alleged gravity. This is minor but a planet with incredible gravity would not have precipitations or tall cliffs, which are both very prominent features of both planets.

Yeah, that's just a minor knit pick. Really do not even need to discuss anything here. Especially since there are verses taking place on Earth, despite their version of Earth being like 4-B sized or some shit.

Samus struggles with high pressure. This is a pretty consistent thing. Whenever there's water in Metroid, Samus struggles to move within it, and needs to find the Gravity Suit (or a similar item in one game) to jump around it freely. This counts for water on both Zebes/Tallon IV and normal planets (Notably Fusion is set in a human-inhabited station and water there still slows Samus down). The potential claim that this is all gameplay mechanics doesn't make much sense, given that finding a way past this hurdle is a required part of progression and a commonly stated function of the Gravity Suit/Gravity Boost, but it is also directly debunked by Samus & Joey, where Samus is indeed shown to have trouble moving around in deep water pressure (this was hundreds of meters deep into an ocean of sulfuric acid, which is roughly twice the specific weight of water). Obviously, none of this would be a problem if she really could freely move around in 960x gravity.

1. Something else worth noting is that any time Samus has to deal with a Gravity Manipulation ability (which is fairly often), she struggles with it until she acquires the Gravity Suit. Now of course you could claim that all of these abilities are just way beyond 960x in intensity (The S&J gravity bomb definitely is), but I'd say it's definitely worth noting how she's never portrayed as having some massive leg up (beyond her sheer durability in S&J) against such conditions.

I really got nothing here, other than the fact that anyone who's Tier 8 and above should realistically be bullet proof. But guess what, there are lots of characters consistently planetary, to interstellar, to cosmic tier who get injured by regular bullets quite regularly.

But as a side note, you do realize that S&J has showcased, that Samus Aran can literally leap off planetary atmospheres by sheer jumping; particularly with Shinespark.

Humans can live on Zebes. Well, sort of. Zebes' environment has canonically always been extremely hostile and unfit for human survival, which has in the past led to the claim that Z-2L, the human colony that was made on that planet, utilized gravity manipulating technology to survive. There is absolutely no statement of this, which makes the assumption already sort of shakey, but it can be straight-up disproved. After Z-2L's destruction Samus as a helpless, not yet genetically enhanced child survives just fine (in the short term, anyways, but 960x gravity would kill you instantly) outside of it, in Chozo areas, which are explicitly stated to not be fit for human life. Mother Brain even mentions that as she is, she'll be able to survive in Brinstar and Crateria (Which makes sense, Tourian, Chozodia and Ridley/Kraid's lairs weren't a thing yet and Norfair's heat would definitely kill her) (Ch2). She undergoes adaptation to be more fit for Zebes, but existing on it unprotected didn't immediately kill her. Speaking of adaptation, Space Pirates are explicitly seeking the same sort of adaptation to live in Zebes' environment (ch8), and yet they're able to walk on it just fine beforehand. This adaptation clearly deals with surviving Zebes' harsh environment, with stuff like acid rains and ability to fend off the wildlife being the actual threat for those who haven't adapted (Ch11), notgravity, which nobody is ever shown to be struggling with.

1. Worth noting is that the two aliens that follow Samus on Zebes, Mauk and Kreatz, have absolutely no trouble with the gravity. Now, Mauk is established to be very strong, so he's probably fine, but Kreatz, not really. You could say he's got super strength too and nothing would directly disprove that, given he isn't a human, but it'd still be yet another assumption that needs to be true for the gravity stuff to make any sense.

As SomebodyData did put it, this does at least raise some of the best concerns. But in the end, it just feels like there is just a lot of unknown and speculation at best. But I would not use Mauk and Kreatz as good examples; the former is clearly superhuman and the latter is physically on par with various Space Pirates. Also, Space Pirates are clearly trained to be drastically superhuman. Especially since they were even founded by those from Zebes and were raised to fight back and wipe out the residents of Zebes. Especially Space Pirates that were named Zebesians for this very reason.

Likewise, Space Pirates as mentioned by SomebodyData, regularly does have access to potent gravity manipulation technologies; such as their ability to form black holes that can rip apart entire planets. And it's based on technology that was literally stolen from the Chozo; who also clearly have invented ways to manipulate Gravity. It's exactually what the Gravity Suit does in lore. She manipulates gravity around her using it. And Tallon IV Chozo even described the Gravity Suit as an outdated technology invention iirc. Implying that they have access to even better stuff. At least that's what it said in most of our profiles. So there is still merit in to some possibility for people to believe that's what Chozo did enabling the likes of little Samus to survive there. But we don't know, there's a lot of things Nintendo likes to do to us and keeping things super vague. But still, I am a strong believer in primary canon being primary canon. Which is exactly what NA Metroid Prime Remaster is; if there are holes or contradictions or things that cause more questions than answers, just so beat it. But canon is still canon. So I still am sticking to it. Website might still be unable to check to justify the smaller radius, but it's still valuable for lore facts. And I already explained the issues with the atomic masses that don't have atomic lengths or volumes explained.

Metroid Prime's script has gone through a lot of revisions and rewritings throughout the years. First the NTSC script, then the drastically altered PAL script, then the Trilogy release which changed a few things, and recently Metroid Prime Remastered also did a few touch-ups. Throughout all of this, Zebes and Tallon IV's weights have never been changed. I've seen some people use this to debunk the idea that they were an accidental mistake*, since Retro/Nintendo would have had plenty of time to rewrite them.

And sure, that's true. But why would they even look? What was rewritten across the various releases of MP1 was mostly lore inconsistencies regarding the Chozo and Phazon, and everything else was barely changed. Fairly good odds they don't even know what their stated weights imply for their planets, and odds are they don't really care. As beloved as its worldbuilding is, Metroid Prime's usage of scientific terms is rarely very accurate (Just look at the stuff relating to antimatter in Echoes), and it's not exactly obvious to the layman what the normal weight of a planet should be and how it would impact its gravity.

*If you change "trillion" to "billion" in the listed weight for Zebes, you get 4.8x10^24 kg, which is not only a remarkably reasonable weight that is very close to Earth's, it's also the same as the German script for MP1, which directly says 4.8x10^24 kg, and very similar to the very thorough stats listed by the JP Super Metroid guidebook, which says 4.974x10^24 kilograms. Worth noting that the latter actually introduces Zebes being the second planet from its star FS-176, which would later be referenced by a few things including Metroid Prime itself. It's not impossible that they meant to carry the data over and just screwed up the conversion. Now I want it to be clear that all of this is just a theory and very much not a primary argument, that would be the fact that extreme gravity Tallon/Zebes is very inconsistent. I am simply giving a possible explanation for this inconsistency that isn't just "yeah there is more evidence of this than that so we go with this and not that".

This is all something that a combination of you yourself right here, SomebodyData, and me explained. That literally all of this is 100% per headcanon. Whether or not they cared is not too relevant, the fact remains that the big numbers for mass is 100% canon, as is the official diameter listed on the website if only we could have access to it. Not to mention, while it can lead to a lot of arbitrariness to take the Trillion Teratons at face value. It's equally arbitrary to downplay the mass of a well intended gas giant that is one of Zebes and Tallon IV's neighbors. But even more arbitrary than either one of those is overlooking the importance of canon. At the end of the day, Retro is what developed the OG that is the primary canon and everything else is simply a localized translation that is prone to misinterpretation, mistranslation, or even downright fabrication. Calling the German localization the primary canon would be the same thing as using that Satan awful English dub translation for Metroid Other M as the primary canon.

Lastly is that guidebook that was allegedly the official guidebook for Super Metroid. Yeah, it may have been published by Nintendo as an official strategy guide, but there are also a lot of loopholes with it. It was developed by Ape Inc. Which wasn't even affiliated with Nintendo at the time; so it best it would be about as canon as a Nintendo Power comic or a Prima Strategy Guide for various other games. Yes, our canon policies have always been case by case for stuff like this, and tbh they've always been going back and forth. Some have even argued good points for using them if there are reliable interviewers involved in the making of it. And it's even recommended of the original source gives us little to nothing regarding story or lore. However, on the contrary. It is clearly stated in the canon page that if it contradicts a primary canon material; especially a more recent one that retcons the older information, then the primary canon source will take center stage. So by the very rules of our canon page, it is mandatory to prioritize the Metroid Prime information of this guidebook. Furthermore, the guidebook itself has a lot of issues. Not only is it grossly outdated, but it is an outdated version of an outdated book. Why do I say this? Because according to what SomebodyData has said multiple times iirc, people at the Metroid Database website actually have gotten their hands on a physical copy of this rare illusive book; the most recent version of said book before they stopped being sold in stores entirely. And in the end, there have been lots of changes, new tweaks and new tips in the strategy guide. But the most important change they main as far as the topic of this thread is concerned. Is that this image does not exist anymore. Or to be specific, the text at the bottom of the page doesn't exist anymore regarding the planetary parameters. Even the "2nd planet from FS-176" statement is no longer up to date entirely. Metroid Prime has it's 5 planets total, and while the exact order can change back and forth, particularly, Bilium is first while Tallon IV is 5th. It's like Mercury and Jupiter swapped places. But what is commonly consistent is that Zebes is 4th with Twin Tabula being 3rd and Oormine II being 2nd. Why isn't Tallon IV the 4th for consistent measure? And of my friends even tried to argue that the entire image never existed to begin with and was photoshopped by someone who got permabanned from Twitter back in 2014 or so. But I'm unsure about that; either way, it seems actually finding physical copy and not some pirated digital copy might be the best way to prove anything. But even if it did exist, it wouldn't change our canon rules.

All in all, I can understand concerns for the radius of Zebes validity based on the website that is inaccessible. Though the reasons for the atomic weight without mentioning atomic length/volume are still not objective rebuttals against the width of the planet. But the primary canon strongly dictates that "4.8 Trillion Teratons" is objectively the most canon description of Zebes mass regardless of logic or realism.

Also, this post I have been typing for like 7 hours straight + some multitasks here and there regarding conversations or house work stuff. But there are still other things I actually forgot about. Not that any of it would support the whole 954.31 G's; outside if using the official mass from the primary canon of the main games combining it with the backed up lore on the inaccessible website. But there were quite a few details from Metroid Zero Mission that indicates other facts about Zebes having stronger gravity to an extent; I may research that over the course of the next few days when I am off work, but it will at least be something. And I'll post that next when I can get to it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright so, I spent all of today's morning at the hospital due to an injury (ended up being not too bad so don't worry), am pretty tired so I'll only respond in broad lines, hopefully that's fine.

I'll start with the crux of what I wish to argue, that being our policy on Canon. Which I'll simply quote some important paragraphs and bold some very specific statements.


Why is all this relevant? Because simply put, Retro Studios is a North American company that is owned by a much bigger Japanese company, aka Nintendo. It's up to debate which version would be the primary canon, but I can rest assured it is one of those two. It was developed in North America, making NA the OG manuscript with everything else being merely adaptations. But it can be argued it is Nintendo of Japan who is the ultimate authority. But at the end of the day, it is safest to say the NA version of Metroid Prime Remaster that is the primary canon. Remaster since it's the latest version that may have otherwise retconned older versions. But on to the sources of what the different versions say. Source here

• English: Planet Zebes. Mass: 4.8 trillion teratons.
• French: Planète Zèbes. Masse: 4,8 trillions de tératonnes
• German: Planet Zebes. Masse (kg): 4,8 x 10 hoch 24
• Spanish: Planeta Zebes. Masa: 4,8 trillones de teratons.
• Italian: Pianeta Zebes. Massa: 4,8 trilioni di teratoni.
• Japanese: 名称：惑星 ゼーベス。質量：4.8兆テラトン

And further down the line, there are three not listed here. Those being Korean, Dutch, Simplified Chinese, and Traditional Chinese. But as SomebodyData said, all versions save for German are very consistent at saying "Trillion Teratons." Also considering there exist more than one country that speak the same languages; Canada speaks French and English. Mexico also speaks Spanish as do many other countries. And as for English, we have the US, the UK, Australia, and others. But all of them use their respective countries definition of Trillion followed by Teraton.

But how much is that really. It's important to consider the difference between short scale and long scale numbers. Here in the US, we is short scale; billion = 10^9 and trillion equals 10^12. But in long scales, the latter is called Billion while the former is called Milliard. Billiard is what they call 10^15 and Trillion being 10^18; which in the US is Quadrillion and Quintillion respectively. In most of those countries, if they say trillion, they actually mean the 10^18 Teratons. The only odd one out here is the German localization. But most of those other European countries would technically advocate that the mass of Zebes is actually 4.8*10^33 kg but literary translation.

It would be a double standard and also to an extent expressing racial supremacy to only consider the German localization and not consider all the others. If Germany considered saying "Trillion Teratons" they'd also be on the list of what's actually Quintillion Teratons by American standards. We do not know the full story of why Germany decided to change it so much, but I'll talk more about then when I talk about the other 3 FS-176 planets besides Tallon IV and Zebes. But really, if they read Trillion Teratons, the general assumption is arguing against the 33 zeroes and not so much the 27 zeroes.

But given the other 8 languages across dozens of different countries still use Trillions of Teratons regardless of whether it's a country where trillion means 10^12 or 10^18, it means both of those are far more consistent than saying Gigatons as opposed to Teratons. Or saying 10^9 Teratons as opposed to Trillion; and if a European country said Billion as opposed to Trillion, it would just mean the exact same thing as the NA's Trillion Teraton result.

Now there are some languages that don't technically use either short scale or long scale, such as the far east. Japan just has simpler words, but there exists two different Japanese words than can translate to trillion. There is 兆 which means Trillion by US English and Billion by old UK English while 百京 is Trillion by old UK English and Quintillion by US English. Given the text 4.8兆テラトン which translates to 4.8 Trillion Teratons, it can safely be said that 兆 is used. Thus it is 4.8*10^12 teratons or 4.8*10^24 Metric tons or 4.8*10^27 for kg. So we have the Japanese version being consistent with our North American version.

Now on topic, allow me to copy the source from this page

I never claimed that the figure was non-canonical. However, the weight itself does not imply that the gravity is canonical. Remember that it solely originates from a fan calculation. That alone would require ulterior proof for it to be accepted today, and very much falls even in the face of mild evidence against it.

The very first planet on the list Bilium, which would be FS-176's counter part to Mercury or 1st planet from the star, is described as a Gas Giant and other similar synonyms.

I understand this is only part of this argument but no it is not. It's described as having gas in its atmosphere but that is not exclusive to gas giants- Earth, pretty notable, has gas in its atmosphere. The closest thing is its animation data using "GasPlanet" as the name but besides obviously not being canon information that doesn't really imply much beyond what we already knew- that there's gas.

This may all sound good on paper, but in execution leaves out quite a bit of details. First of all, while the official atomic weight sounds like a step to support the idea of Zebes and Tallon IV being not as dense and thus indicating likelihood of great volume. But I can still take apart other flaws here. First of all, Bendezium is a rare substance compared to Urthic Ore, which clearly has an unknown density; we know over 85% of Zebes is made of Urthic, which means there is less than 15% remaining. Not that it matters as much since Bendezium is highlighted as a "Extremely Dense Solid", but other details.

I've already addressed this. It and Bendezium are very clearly referred to as denser than normal- even if they're rare, that would imply that the rest of the planet's materials more or less conform to their mass or are beneath it.

Yes, Bendezium's atomic weight/molar mass is merely 65.332; there is no unite listed though the default is AMU or g/mol, but that makes me question what its atomic length/volume is? When trying to argue density, having a calculated atomic weight means little to nothing if there isn't an atomic volume or length to go with it. For example, you listed Titanium having an atomic mass of 47.867, which also as an atomic radius of 147 picometers. No such statement exists for Bendezium; for all we know, it could have an atomic radius that is merely a tenth of what Titanium is; thus a thousand times less volume. An object could have less atomic mass but still overall have far greater density given that the individual atoms could be smaller and thus having more counting numbers per cubic centimeter.

The same thing could be said for things like Brinstone; which honestly, this is actually one thing I could argue against SomebodyData for. He said it was more dense than Bendezium, but we don't actually know that for much of the same reason I argued. Atomic Weight is listed, not atomic length or volume. But it is "Above Average" where as Bendezium is outright referred to as extremely dense. Why they may not prove much, the fact that one has a more extravagant description implies it's more impressive than something simply described as "Above average."

Atomic weight and radius tend to be roughly proportional. You could assume all of these materials are somehow an exception... but there would be absolutely no reason to. Especially because being that this is an in-verse database meant to track materials and the like, if they were abnormally compact that'd be noted there.

Cordite also could be more or less the same thing as the other alloys where atomic weight is mentioned, not length but to a lesser extent; it's also obviously not the same thing as its real world counterpart. Sandstone, I got no defense and more or less does seem intended to just be regular Sandstone. But we do not know how much of Tallon IV is made of it; there's a big map full of it, but even that's miniscule compared to the rest of the planet.

"It's minuscule" isn't really much in itself. If gravity were so much higher than Earth's geological processes would be completely different, Earth-like materials would not exist.

But all in all, some reasonable concerns here and there, but using those sources means also using the website. Which gives us the radius of Zebes and by extension justifies the high gravity. It's a double edge sword all things considered. Though as said, I still brought up other concerns that could be counterarguments, there is still too much unknown while not other details are shared, there's still not enough to argue against the density given the other details. Having confirmed mass and confirmed diameter just means needing to plug it in here. Diameter is easy, but you can't plug mass in, only G's. But the lowest number with two decimals to get the 4.8 Trillion Teratons or 4.8*10^27 kg is 954.31. There you go. I know the website is too messy to give us length, but mass is still canon and given to us. But if we ever get our sources fully, this is confirmed all canon and just takes basic math to prove.

Yes, that doesn't change it from being a fanon calculation. We can't expect writers to have done this math and know its implications.

Yeah... I am going to have to bluntly agree with SomebodyData here, albeit I also have other side reasons but people are still not going to like the way I say it. But yeah, in game physics are like almost never reliable. Because especially retro video games and retro inspired video games, almost nothing is ever drawn to scale properly. It's not just games guilty of this, but comics, cartoons, manga, and Anime as well. There's a lot of issues of houses tending to look way bigger on the inside than on the outside, in some cases, everyone looks exactly the same size despite a lot of things that factor height and size difference IRL. Lots of classic 8-Bit aesthetics would portray Danny DeVito and Shaquille O'Neal being the same height. And other cartoony art styles have the opposite issue, where the size of kids and adult difference is grossly exaggerated. Same thing applies for sprites being compared to various landmarks on the overworld which realistically should be having much bigger gaps.

But anyway, a programmer's biggest goal is to make a game playable just like it's an animator's job to make an animated scene watchable. Their job is not to be 100% pixel perfect with every little minor detail. But yeah, if Metroid game's portrayed 960 G's 100% realistically, the games would be Big Rigs Over the Road Racing levels of broken. It's very difficult to run at 30 or 60 let alone 240 FPS if the fall after a jump was just something that happens faster than the human eye could blink. Just think about it, would anyone who's not an Angry Video Game Nerd even want to play a game where you can't jump without falling super crazy fast to properly land a single jump? There are plenty of games that take place on Earth that ironically have gravity portrayed as 2 or 3 times heavier than Earth's. Likewise, there also exist games that take place on Earth, but gravity is like Moon level based on the physics. Or others are kind of a mix where it has a faster acceleration due to gravity but terminal velocity seems to be much lower than it has any right to be; where you just fall at a static velocity. And as SD said, Prime plays with 2.5x gravity in terms of in game physics; it is not evidence one way or the other. Though some argue it supporting evidence it was meant to be stronger than Earth, but avoids going all out with the 773 and 954 G's respectively to still make it playable. But I just see in game physics as irrelevant either way.

Also, Ceres Space Station having the same in game physics as Zebes in Super Metroid is living proof of how irrelevant in game physics is. Ceres only has like 3% the gravity of Earth, and pretty much anyone could leap over tall buildings in a single leap at that point. Or in my case specifically, I could probably push a fully loaded Big Ring. But yeah, SD already brought up other examples; now finally. There's the argument that, "Oh but story oriented video games have cutscenes and game mechanics can't apply to that." Actually, that's not entirely true. In a lot of modern video games, we are literally given fully animated cutscenes that use a completely different art style. Where the in game models are just sprites, but the animated cutscenes are often times exactly like an Anime or movie. But in the Metroid series or classic Mega Man style games, cutscenes are still things that use flash animations of their in game sprites. And the characters move and jump just like their in game counterparts due to being the same compressed pixels and moving along the video game's physics engine. Which only doubles down the various limitations of game mechanics in the first place.

And even outside of game mechanics, it does not argue against my other issue that being a common animation flaw. It is a common trope in animation that we see two crazy fast characters fighting in slow motion, when the rain drops in the background are falling at normal speed. Or when we see a couple dozen or more episodes passed, when only 5 short minutes pass in canon. Animation also can have a lot of similar flaws to games, where not everyone and everything is drawn to scale perfectly. Not to mention being so game breaking in other areas if she could jump so stupid high. There are a lot of game characters with Infinite/Immeasurable speed, who don't always use their crazy speed to get places on time, or to travel back in time to save plot important characters. Really, most Metroid related concerns are tame compared to others out there.

If "a programmer's biggest goal is to make a game playable just like it's an animator's job to make an animated scene watchable" a writer's goal is to create a story befitting of the world portrayed by the developers. And guess what- that is never a world with extremely high gravity. Gameplay and writing do not exist in separate fields that only occasionally intersect, both are created with the other mind. "It wouldn't be fun to have high gravity in gameplay" holds up no more weight than "no writer would ever knowingly add incredibly high gravity in the lore a game that does not feature any such thing."

To be clear if the gravity were stated, I would not be using this argument, or at least not relying on it as much, but it isn't. It's derived from some barely important data through a calculation, and in my opinion that is not any more canonical than gameplay portrayal. In fact, it's lower on that scale.

Yeah, that's just a minor knit pick. Really do not even need to discuss anything here. Especially since there are verses taking place on Earth, despite their version of Earth being like 4-B sized or some shit.

And we wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) assume high gravity for those either.

I really got nothing here, other than the fact that anyone who's Tier 8 and above should realistically be bullet proof. But guess what, there are lots of characters consistently planetary, to interstellar, to cosmic tier who get injured by regular bullets quite regularly.

This is an extremely consistent notion across the entire franchise with lore and manga backing, I don't care about "ooh but what if it's PIS" whataboutism. It's not. It's not even a LS anti-feat, she can walk around fine in those pressures it's just hard for her to perform acrobatic movements.

But as a side note, you do realize that S&J has showcased, that Samus Aran can literally leap off planetary atmospheres by sheer jumping; particularly with Shinespark.

No, no it did not. Chariot and I have both recently read through the manga several times for indexing purposes, she never does this. She can use it to fly (and she indeed does fly, not jump, in S&J), and nowhere near that high.

As SomebodyData did put it, this does at least raise some of the best concerns. But in the end, it just feels like there is just a lot of unknown and speculation at best. But I would not use Mauk and Kreatz as good examples; the former is clearly superhuman and the latter is physically on par with various Space Pirates. Also, Space Pirates are clearly trained to be drastically superhuman. Especially since they were even founded by those from Zebes and were raised to fight back and wipe out the residents of Zebes. Especially Space Pirates that were named Zebesians for this very reason.

You avoided addressing the main part of the argument- that Samus as an un-augmented 3-years old (And Pyonchi too for that matter) can walk on Zebes' surface just fine. Every other example is merely support- and it's very valid support because don't act like four/five different species of aliens all coincidentally being capable of existing in 960x gravity with zero need for adjustment isn't a contrived assumption.

Likewise, Space Pirates as mentioned by SomebodyData, regularly does have access to potent gravity manipulation technologies; such as their ability to form black holes that can rip apart entire planets. And it's based on technology that was literally stolen from the Chozo; who also clearly have invented ways to manipulate Gravity. It's exactually what the Gravity Suit does in lore. She manipulates gravity around her using it. And Tallon IV Chozo even described the Gravity Suit as an outdated technology invention iirc. Implying that they have access to even better stuff. At least that's what it said in most of our profiles. So there is still merit in to some possibility for people to believe that's what Chozo did enabling the likes of little Samus to survive there. But we don't know, there's a lot of things Nintendo likes to do to us and keeping things super vague. But still, I am a strong believer in primary canon being primary canon. Which is exactly what NA Metroid Prime Remaster is; if there are holes or contradictions or things that cause more questions than answers, just so beat it. But canon is still canon. So I still am sticking to it. Website might still be unable to check to justify the smaller radius, but it's still valuable for lore facts. And I already explained the issues with the atomic masses that don't have atomic lengths or volumes explained.

So besides the fact that the Pirates didn't steal the black hole from the Chozo but from some other unknown party, we are straight-up told that the environment is in no way fit for human existence, and there's no other feasible reason for the Chozo to build such devices for a planet in which they can already thrive beyond pure headcanon.

Also, note that in the scan above they say Samus would be fine across all of Brinstar and Crateria, which means that the alleged Chozo gravity tech exists across at least a large chunk of the planet- which makes the assumption even more ludicrous.

This is all something that a combination of you yourself right here, SomebodyData, and me explained. That literally all of this is 100% per headcanon. Whether or not they cared is not too relevant, the fact remains that the big numbers for mass is 100% canon, as is the official diameter listed on the website if only we could have access to it. Not to mention, while it can lead to a lot of arbitrariness to take the Trillion Teratons at face value. It's equally arbitrary to downplay the mass of a well intended gas giant that is one of Zebes and Tallon IV's neighbors. But even more arbitrary than either one of those is overlooking the importance of canon. At the end of the day, Retro is what developed the OG that is the primary canon and everything else is simply a localized translation that is prone to misinterpretation, mistranslation, or even downright fabrication. Calling the German localization the primary canon would be the same thing as using that Satan awful English dub translation for Metroid Other M as the primary canon.

And that does not mean anything on its own, as explained above.

Lastly is that guidebook that was allegedly the official guidebook for Super Metroid. Yeah, it may have been published by Nintendo as an official strategy guide, but there are also a lot of loopholes with it. It was developed by Ape Inc. Which wasn't even affiliated with Nintendo at the time; so it best it would be about as canon as a Nintendo Power comic or a Prima Strategy Guide for various other games. Yes, our canon policies have always been case by case for stuff like this, and tbh they've always been going back and forth. Some have even argued good points for using them if there are reliable interviewers involved in the making of it. And it's even recommended of the original source gives us little to nothing regarding story or lore. However, on the contrary. It is clearly stated in the canon page that if it contradicts a primary canon material; especially a more recent one that retcons the older information, then the primary canon source will take center stage. So by the very rules of our canon page, it is mandatory to prioritize the Metroid Prime information of this guidebook. Furthermore, the guidebook itself has a lot of issues. Not only is it grossly outdated, but it is an outdated version of an outdated book. Why do I say this? Because according to what SomebodyData has said multiple times iirc, people at the Metroid Database website actually have gotten their hands on a physical copy of this rare illusive book; the most recent version of said book before they stopped being sold in stores entirely. And in the end, there have been lots of changes, new tweaks and new tips in the strategy guide. But the most important change they main as far as the topic of this thread is concerned. Is that this image does not exist anymore. Or to be specific, the text at the bottom of the page doesn't exist anymore regarding the planetary parameters. Even the "2nd planet from FS-176" statement is no longer up to date entirely. Metroid Prime has it's 5 planets total, and while the exact order can change back and forth, particularly, Bilium is first while Tallon IV is 5th. It's like Mercury and Jupiter swapped places. But what is commonly consistent is that Zebes is 4th with Twin Tabula being 3rd and Oormine II being 2nd. Why isn't Tallon IV the 4th for consistent measure? And of my friends even tried to argue that the entire image never existed to begin with and was photoshopped by someone who got permabanned from Twitter back in 2014 or so. But I'm unsure about that; either way, it seems actually finding physical copy and not some pirated digital copy might be the best way to prove anything. But even if it did exist, it wouldn't change our canon rules.

I recently had an off-site chat with someone who informed me of a very funny (and very much no longer true) statement in that same guide. Needless to say I do agree that its current canonicity is questionable, though the fact that Zebes did at some point 100% canonically have normal gravity is still notable (that'd be a very weird thing to retcon).

(I do highly doubt that it'd be photoshopped though, that'd be some pro tier work)

Also, this post I have been typing for like 7 hours straight + some multitasks here and there regarding conversations or house work stuff. But there are still other things I actually forgot about. Not that any of it would support the whole 954.31 G's; outside if using the official mass from the primary canon of the main games combining it with the backed up lore on the inaccessible website. But there were quite a few details from Metroid Zero Mission that indicates other facts about Zebes having stronger gravity to an extent; I may research that over the course of the next few days when I am off work, but it will at least be something. And I'll post that next when I can get to it.

I'm sorry, I was already planning to close the post much sooner before you asked to get this post in, I don't think it'd be good to wait for a week or so just for what is ultimately going to be very minor evidence (I don't disagree that with how fast Samus' falling speed is Zebes' gravity could be taken to be a bit higher, but that would be questionable to take literally and still much closer to Earth gravity than to the alleged 960x gravity.

With all of that said, I will probably close this tomorrow. If anyone else has something to say, now would be a good time to do it.

 

[Chariot190]

snip

We know what it says, the argument is the never mentioned gravity, doesnt add up with it.
Where's the source for the gravity? That, is what's important.

The very first planet on the list Bilium, which would be FS-176's counter part to Mercury or 1st planet from the star, is described as a Gas Giant and other similar synonyms. And it would be consistent with having double the mass of Jupiter as is the notable hazards it is known for. The second appears to be the smallest on the list, and it's hard to interpret what "Nuclear Dust Storms" mean, but generally means its change in temperature is out of control thus goes back and forth between between extremely hot global warmings and super frosty global winters. Seismic Upheavals seems to refer to massive earthquakes happening left and right. And Twin Tabula is a poison heavy fever planet. But hey, we have at least one gas giant on the list; and some speculate Twin Tabula might also be a gas giant. So if there's a complaint about planets having crazy high density, I'd argue the opposite issue if Bilium was assumed to have less density than Hydrogen. Because sure German version lowered the mass of Zebes and Tallon IV a thousand fold, but they also did it to the other three planets to imply the mass of a gas giant is less than the likes of Venus or Earth and has less density than Hydrogen. There's going to be an error and levels of absurdity regardless of which version is preferred. Though, even I would agree 10^33 is the craziest interpretation on the list.

Now that I argued primary canon, the mass is pretty blatant, so I many not be very blunt about the volume vs density stuff. But I will point out some flaws in the OP. To address issues with this quotation.

Dont mean to be rude, but, none of this matters, at all.
The point, was, that "hey the mass is absolutely uncorroborated". They're all ****** up dude, it's all the SAME source, it's just them yapping not comprehending the implications, as evidenced by a metric fuckton of contradictions and lack of any support to gravity, which in and of itself, isn't even real. And case and point, you're arguing about a gas giant having unrealistic weight, but god forbid the unrealistic weight we know doesn't check out isn't consistent, hell aint it odd everything is like that too?
And that's assuming it even is a gas giant, they don't actually say that.

But at the end of the day, our goal is not to propose what sounds the most realistic, but it's to support whatever is the primary canon.

No it isnt, it's to use whatever is consistent.

It was developed by a North American company, supervised by an International Japanese company, but the NA is the OG version with everything else simply just being secondary canon at best that are just mere translation localizations

Man, we literally use PAL as main canon, not that it matters, just goes to show it ain't that simple.

It being a different medium than manga stuff is not important; Viz Media English dubs are never more canon than original Japanese versions,

Oh yes it is, the entire process is different between a manga and say, Nintendo's, a Italian translation of DBZ isn't getting fact-checked by Akira Toriyama or Shuiesha.

but giving the German version pure favoritism is literally doing that.

Ya know, no offense, but the constant strawmanning is beginning to get really aggravating.
How is it you read the thread, where multiple people specified what it's being used for, and you still strawman like that?

It's also the reason we consider other games canon. -snip

Despite your claims, that is a whataboutism, and not even relevant to the topic. Hell you basically backpedal and shoot yourself in the foot further down in your own post regarding miscommunication and intepration.

But, that doesn't matter, the point that nothing but the Prime statement suggests it, contradicted no less, and never supported, and all from a fancalc no less.

This may all sound good on paper, but in execution leaves out quite a bit of details. First of all, while the official atomic weight sounds like a step to support the idea of Zebes and Tallon IV being not as dense and thus indicating likelihood of great volume. But I can still take apart other flaws here. First of all, Bendezium is a rare substance compared to Urthic Ore, which clearly has an unknown density; we know over 85% of Zebes is made of Urthic, which means there is less than 15% remaining. Not that it matters as much since Bendezium is highlighted as a "Extremely Dense Solid", but other details.

One is extremely dense, we also know what the average isnt, as an above average one, still has normal density.

Bendzium is linked to Urthic Ore, and it doesn't even matter, we see over 15% of Zebes, 90% of it is made from just fuckass rock that doesn't behave any differently than you'd expect, not this super substance that weighs like a ton per cm^3.

And then they list sandstone with pretty accurate values....
Ngl, this feels like actual grasping, we know what they meant (if only because of sandstone), we see that stuff in game, we even have an actual real example used both there and in game, to draw parallel to.

ALSO, the fact we know the average for the planet is below, makes this whole argument worthless, the planet by large, is less then.

Yes, Bendezium's atomic weight/molar mass is merely 65.332; there is no unite listed though the default is AMU or g/mol, but that makes me question what its atomic length/volume is?

Man, they list off sandstone, we know what the unit is approximate to...

When trying to argue density, having a calculated atomic weight means little to nothing if there isn't an atomic volume or length to go with it. For example, you listed Titanium having an atomic mass of 47.867, which also as an atomic radius of 147 picometers. No such statement exists for Bendezium; for all we know, it could have an atomic radius that is merely a tenth of what Titanium is; thus a thousand times less volume. An object could have less atomic mass but still overall have far greater density given that the individual atoms could be smaller and thus having more counting numbers per cubic centimeter.

The same thing could be said for things like Brinstone; which honestly, this is actually one thing I could argue against SomebodyData for. He said it was more dense than Bendezium, but we don't actually know that for much of the same reason I argued. Atomic Weight is listed, not atomic length or volume. But it is "Above Average" where as Bendezium is outright referred to as extremely dense. Why they may not prove much, the fact that one has a more extravagant description implies it's more impressive than something simply described as "Above average."

Cordite also could be more or less the same thing as the other alloys where atomic weight is mentioned, not length but to a lesser extent; it's also obviously not the same thing as its real world counterpart. Sandstone, I got no defense and more or less does seem intended to just be regular Sandstone. But we do not know how much of Tallon IV is made of it; there's a big map full of it, but even that's miniscule compared to the rest of the planet.

Dude, we have sandstone as an actual, listed, example. An entire chunk of the game, is made of it, and then stuff like magmoor (into the crust) made from just rock and stuff and lava. We know the frame of reference they're working on, that shit isn't 1000kg/cm^3, we see that stuff in game too, Cordite, Bendezium, etc, we see them, break them, etc, they aren't these secret black hole dense objects man.

And the chunk of the map, is like 1/5th the actual planet, it's an GC game, that stuff isn't to scale (as a whole, it's kinda weird), but it's still an abstraction of the planet, as you mentioned below actually.

But all in all, some reasonable concerns here and there, but using those sources means also using the website. Which gives us the radius of Zebes and by extension justifies the high gravity.

No, it doesn't, the website sources MASS, not gravity.

There's a difference.

NOTHING justifies high gravity, you're skipping a step, the mass and radi =/= the gravity. That doesn't support a non-corroborated, non-stated, value stemming from a fancalc.

It's a double edge sword all things considered. Though as said, I still brought up other concerns that could be counterarguments, there is still too much unknown while not other details are shared, there's still not enough to argue against the density given the other details. Having confirmed mass and confirmed diameter just means needing to plug it in here. Diameter is easy, but you can't plug mass in, only G's. But the lowest number with two decimals to get the 4.8 Trillion Teratons or 4.8*10^27 kg is 954.31. There you go. I know the website is too messy to give us length, but mass is still canon and given to us. But if we ever get our sources fully, this is confirmed all canon and just takes basic math to prove.

"To prove", except you arent proving anything? The gravity isn't stated, the mass and diameter might be canon (maybe), but the gravity is fanon, extra steps taken not found or mentioned anywhere ever, you realize that yes?

Hell, you could even treat this as calc stacking.

Yeah... I am going to have to bluntly agree with SomebodyData here, albeit I also have other side reasons but people are still not going to like the way I say it. But yeah, in game physics are like almost never reliable.

Except when they are. in fact, they almost are always reliable? the engines convey how theyre meant to act? Exceptions exist yeah, but 99% of games ain't a minority.
Hundreds of games have realistic game engines, hell Nintendo themselves have a bunch.
Totk even has 9.8ms^2 gravity, realistic freefall, drop off arcs, and more. They at the very least try.

And most games still get it very close, if not the same, as what they want to convey.

Because especially retro video games and retro inspired video games, almost nothing is ever drawn to scale properly.

And you just rebutted your "a whole chunk of the map tiny" argument. Non-sequitur to physics btw.

It's not just games guilty of this, but comics, cartoons, manga, and Anime as well.

Except they all actively try to convey the gravity they're allegedly apparently meant to have?

Like, ya pick up a Batman comic, ya read it, and oh, maybe there was a scene that was slightly off physics, but that doesn't change the fact the comic works and attempts to convey 1g, and any mess up you wouldn't pick up on really.
That, is not the same as 1000g planets behaving like 1g, having blatant contradictions and contradictory lore, both stated and SHOWN, all for a gravity that isn't even mentioned anywhere.

There's a lot of issues of houses tending to look way bigger on the inside than on the outside, in some cases, everyone looks exactly the same size despite a lot of things that factor height and size difference IRL. Lots of classic 8-Bit aesthetics would portray Danny DeVito and Shaquille O'Neal being the same height. And other cartoony art styles have the opposite issue, where the size of kids and adult difference is grossly exaggerated. Same thing applies for sprites being compared to various landmarks on the overworld which realistically should be having much bigger gaps.

What are you talking about? None of this matters, and is wrong anyway, we aren't talking about NES Metroid, we're talking every game ever and never once at any point do they even hint the thing you're arguing at, despite having numerous ways to do so, and even literally doing exactly that for other gravity.

But anyway, a programmer's biggest goal is to make a game playable just like it's an animator's job to make an animated scene watchable. Their job is not to be 100% pixel perfect with every little minor detail. But yeah, if Metroid game's portrayed 960 G's 100% realistically, the games would be Big Rigs Over the Road Racing levels of broken.

it doesn't need to portray it 100% realistically, it just needs to portray it at all.

We have cutscenes, we have grav suit, we even have actual gravity attacks affecting Sams like nightmare, but no, even just an abstraction or loose convey is to much?

Also dude, this isn't a minor detail, it's a blatant all-encompassing fucky that'd affect the lore, plot, games, and well not that they care, but how we index it. No team goes "hey let's make the planet 1000g", and then do nothing to convey it and act like it doesn't exist, they'd do SOMETHING, they don't, they don't even SAY it has high gravity dude. And if it actually had such high gravity, they'd work around it or implement somehow as that's what ya do when ya establish stuff like that, no different than Samus needing grav to bypass water, or zones being super hot and cold, they'd MAKE it a thing if it actually was one, but when they treat 1g planets and the alleged 1000g planets as the same, we have a issue (it means they literally aren't factoring it in at all, aka, we made it up).

It's very difficult to run at 30 or 60 let alone 240 FPS if the fall after a jump was just something that happens faster than the human eye could blink. Just think about it, would anyone who's not an Angry Video Game Nerd even want to play a game where you can't jump without falling super crazy fast to properly land a single jump?

Just do a slow mo cutscene or some shit, and no, this argument only works if it DOES have high gravity, but you haven't actually proven that, as it stands, it's just one of many, many, absences of any sort of evidence and indication.

Btw, the games do show stuff plummeting or falling due to shifts in gravity and pressure, such as Nightmare, who manips gravity, or Dread's apparent 960g fans. Point is they have ways, you can't chalk up everything you don't like to game mechanics, hell, they'd have done stuff differently from the get-go if it WAS 960g.

There are plenty of games that take place on Earth that ironically have gravity portrayed as 2 or 3 times heavier than Earth's. Likewise, there also exist games that take place on Earth, but gravity is like Moon level based on the physics. Or others are kind of a mix where it has a faster acceleration due to gravity but terminal velocity seems to be much lower than it has any right to be; where you just fall at a static velocity. And as SD said, Prime plays with 2.5x gravity in terms of in game physics; it is not evidence one way or the other. Though some argue it supporting evidence it was meant to be stronger than Earth, but avoids going all out with the 773 and 954 G's respectively to still make it playable. But I just see in game physics as irrelevant either way.

What's with this whataboutism? We're talking about a game, that has a bunch of games, including on newer hardware, none of which even supports the gravity claim, despite actively going out of its way to depict high pressure, gravity, and so on.

And ya know, maybe i'd agree with the Prime thing, if Aether wasnt hospitable by normal humans.

Also, Ceres Space Station having the same in game physics as Zebes in Super Metroid is living proof of how irrelevant in game physics is. Ceres only has like 3% the gravity of Earth, and pretty much anyone could leap over tall buildings in a single leap at that point. Or in my case specifically, I could probably push a fully loaded Big Ring.

What are you talking about? it's a pressurized space station that normal humans live on? Hell, one's even a old man, Samus hands him the Baby in the opening cutscene?
Literally everything you just said here was wrong, are you confusing Ceres with an irl equivalent? Because, don't feel like I need to explain why a space station 100000ly away from the irl moon, ain't the same thing.

But yeah, SD already brought up other examples; now finally. There's the argument that, "Oh but story oriented video games have cutscenes and game mechanics can't apply to that." Actually, that's not entirely true. In a lot of modern video games, we are literally given fully animated cutscenes that use a completely different art style. Where the in game models are just sprites, but the animated cutscenes are often times exactly like an Anime or movie.

So? Except actually, so what? Jesus man we have Other M and that game doesn't convey this at all, or Dread, or Prime, or anything. If other games are bad or behave differently, so what? Metroid can and has conveyed gravity and pressure, and does it all the time, yet doesn't for what would be the most relevant gravity in the verse, that's never actually mentioned...?

But in the Metroid series or classic Mega Man style games, cutscenes are still things that use flash animations of their in game sprites. And the characters move and jump just like their in game counterparts due to being the same compressed pixels and moving along the video game's physics engine. Which only doubles down the various limitations of game mechanics in the first place.

That, isn't true? Cutscenes in old games don't literally use the in-game engine half the time, they can make them move or jump however they want. Ya dont see Mario in Mario World cutscenes tied to his basic jump do you?
And this doesn't excuse the games like Prime Trilogy that don't adhere to that, and literally DO convey gravity-specific jumps. The VERY 1st thing we see Sam do in Prime, is jump 50ft in 0g.
And then we got Other M, like as a whole, cutscene the game.
And this argument doesn't work because the whole of Fusion exists, and that game despite being 16b, DOES convey pressure and gravity changes when it applies. Man, there's a boss that quite LITERALLY makes grav higher and changes Samus' physics. They can and have taken gravity into account in these very games, whenever we actually know grav is being messed with.
And SM does too, and ZM, with acid/water/etc.

And even outside of game mechanics, it does not argue against my other issue that being a common animation flaw. It is a common trope in animation that we see two crazy fast characters fighting in slow motion, when the rain drops in the background are falling at normal speed.

Except when we don't.


That's a **** up on their end, but, I'd assume, at least in those cases they actually have FEATS of being quick that outweigh the **** up right? Not comparable here.

Or when we see a couple dozen or more episodes passed, when only 5 short minutes pass in canon.

The most infamous time discrepecy in media history, mostly a byproduct of filler, that isn't a issue in the manga it came from, is not a good argument.

And unlike this, they actually show Goku and Freeza move so quickly they vanish and can't be seen a dozen times through that fight, as in, again, not a good example, they actually show and confirm it that it only seems long because they hyper fast, as you'd expect. Not the same as never conveying 960g all while never even saying it.

Animation also can have a lot of similar flaws to games, where not everyone and everything is drawn to scale perfectly. Not to mention being so game breaking in other areas if she could jump so stupid high.

Literally just make the high jump that's in most games tied to gravity, wow that was hard

There are a lot of game characters with Infinite/Immeasurable speed, who don't always use their crazy speed to get places on time, or to travel back in time to save plot important characters.

yeah because theyre all wanked
What is this argument? This has nothing to do with the fact NOT ONE GAME actually conveys any semblance of insane gravity, except maybe Prime? Before immediately proving "nah it's not THAT high, normal humans can function under it".

Really, most Metroid related concerns are tame compared to others out there.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Yeah, that's just a minor knit pick. Really do not even need to discuss anything here. Especially since there are verses taking place on Earth, despite their version of Earth being like 4-B sized or some shit.

So? We aren't talking about random inflated manga planet #69, we're talking Metroid.

Also yeah, sure, and despite that alleged size, they have normal gravity, almost like authors don't think that far ahead and have them work normally (except when they don't, in which they just say the G's ), kinda just goes to show a planet won't always have the alleged gravity, no?

I really got nothing here, other than the fact that anyone who's Tier 8 and above should realistically be bullet proof. But guess what, there are lots of characters consistently planetary, to interstellar, to cosmic tier who get injured by regular bullets quite regularly.

????

But as a side note, you do realize that S&J has showcased, that Samus Aran can literally leap off planetary atmospheres by sheer jumping; particularly with Shinespark.

No, she can't, she can change her movement mid-air, that's always been a thing. She isnt leaping off planetary atmospheres. She's just doing something she can do even in Dread. Also, said planet was 1G, given Joey was fine on it, and the fact a human village of helpless dudes was next to them.

This has absolutely nothing to do with
"Water pressure, is a canon obstacle that hiders Samus, this is the case on both 1g places and the alleged grav places. She needs a canon item to bypass it, the item even mentions it. This isn't just game mechanics, in S&J, Samus flatout states the water pressure makes her to heavy to do stuff like screw attack and move properly, on 1g planet as established by the human village 5 feet away, confirming it as canon".

As SomebodyData did put it, this does at least raise some of the best concerns. But in the end, it just feels like there is just a lot of unknown and speculation at best. But I would not use Mauk and Kreatz as good examples; the former is clearly superhuman and the latter is physically on par with various Space Pirates.

Space Pirates and Kreatz/Mauk have no indication of behaving any differently in Zebes alleged 960g, and basic 1g planets, as we see them fight on both in that same manga.

And then we got shit like Old Bird, who, despite being a chozo, is still so old walking takes time and he uses a cane to move around on 1g planets and can't even jump 10ft on 1g.

And then slap Samus and Pyochi.... You see the problem yeah?

Also, Space Pirates are clearly trained to be drastically superhuman. Especially since they were even founded by those from Zebes and were raised to fight back and wipe out the residents of Zebes. Especially Space Pirates that were named Zebesians for this very reason.

Dude, this aint DBZ, they can't train beyond what they're capable of, and they were explicitly undergoing genetic modification to inhabit Zebes because of how hostile it is, but not for gravity?

Why do they need modification to survive local wildlife and acid and whatever, but apparently just trained to survive 960g that's never mentioned anywhere?

Likewise, Space Pirates as mentioned by SomebodyData, regularly does have access to potent gravity manipulation technologies; such as their ability to form black holes that can rip apart entire planets.

No they don't.
They stole that, they didn't make it, Old Burd is even aghast at the fact and wonders how in the **** they managed to get ahold of something like that.

It's the furthest thing from "regularly" or "normal".

AND, that was with prep, Ridley himself says they were prepping that shit since "the last attack", which according to Gray, was "once, before you came", to Samus, so well over a decade.

And it's based on technology that was literally stolen from the Chozo;

No? They NEVER say that ANYWHERE. The Chozo himself says he doesn't know where they got it from.

who also clearly have invented ways to manipulate Gravity.

The ONLY thing they've shown, is a suit that manipulates one's own gravity when worn, and is treated like some legendary mythical item.

It's exactually what the Gravity Suit does in lore. She manipulates gravity around her using it. And Tallon IV Chozo even described the Gravity Suit as an outdated technology invention iirc.

Just went through a Prime PAL Textdump, they do not. And yes, the ONLY piece of gravity tech they have, is a suit that must be worn.

How does this explain unamped humans being fine on Zebes? Are you actually extrapolating Zebes had a whole planetary gravity neg field that was never mentioned anywhere? That's extreme extrapolation, we don't do that, and even if we did, that'd downgrade every feat anyway because they were done in 1g due to burd tech apparently.

Implying that they have access to even better stuff. At least that's what it said in most of our profiles.

Our profiles wrong af man, they kinda bad. And our profiles, is NOT a canon reliable source.

So there is still merit in to some possibility for people to believe that's what Chozo did enabling the likes of little Samus to survive there.

How? They weren't expecting to adopt her, they wouldn't exactly be ready to asspull a planetary gravity device unless they just so happened to have one lying around that's never talked about, including in open areas mind you.
And it's wrong anyway, we're flatout told the only thing they did was give her Chozo DNA so she COULD survive there.

But we don't know, there's a lot of things Nintendo likes to do to us and keeping things super vague.

Yeah, in like, Zelda, and only for stuff like timeline fuckery and only sometimes, not Metroid where they like to spoonfeed us a whole bunch of lore and data about literally everything (Scan Visor my dude...).

There's ZERO reason why Nintendo wouldn't go "btw 960g lmao", in the dozen places they could have, all while never conveying it, saying it, and showing the exact opposite like a dozen times. That aint some lore, it's just a piece of planet info, something they're 100% willing to give based on the fact the very fact the fancalc exists, is due to that alone.

But still, I am a strong believer in primary canon being primary canon. Which is exactly what NA Metroid Prime Remaster is; if there are holes or contradictions or things that cause more questions than answers, just so beat it. But canon is still canon. So I still am sticking to it. Website might still be unable to check to justify the smaller radius, but it's still valuable for lore facts. And I already explained the issues with the atomic masses that don't have atomic lengths or volumes explained.

Nobody said it wasn't canon, just contradicted, unsupported, and blatantly wrong.
Batman beat the shit out 4-B's unamped barehanded before, it's canon, doesn't mean it ain't wrong, for an example of whataboutism.

This is all something that a combination of you yourself right here, SomebodyData, and me explained. That literally all of this is 100% per headcanon. Whether or not they cared is not too relevant,

It is, if the gravity was not intended, a fact you basically just admitted, and the only way you can get gravity, is due to a fancalc, and everything consistently shows it not being that high, then, it is relevant because it's pure headcanon that's contradicted by canon.

the fact remains that the big numbers for mass is 100% canon, as is the official diameter listed on the website if only we could have access to it. Not to mention, while it can lead to a lot of arbitrariness to take the Trillion Teratons at face value. It's equally arbitrary to downplay the mass of a well intended gas giant that is one of Zebes and Tallon IV's neighbors.

Dude, ALL the values ****** up, they were just yapping. Nobody is downplaying a planet we never actually see or go to. And that's not even stated a gas giant.

And again, don't think you understand the issue. The mass, isn't the issue, it's the blatantly wrong gravity obtained from said mass.

But even more arbitrary than either one of those is overlooking the importance of canon. At the end of the day, Retro is what developed the OG that is the primary canon and everything else is simply a localized translation that is prone to misinterpretation, mistranslation, or even downright fabrication.

That isn't true though? At all. That isnt how games get made, yeah it can be mistranslated, but, the opposite is also true. Reminder Retro was making a game for a japanese product while trying to have it tie into an existing verse. Why couldn't they have misinterpreted stuff? Mistranslated? Or maybe they weren't aware of pre-existing data and just made up some values? **** if we know but it goes both ways.

Calling the German localization the primary canon would be the same thing as using that Satan awful English dub translation for Metroid Other M as the primary canon.

The eng dub of Other M is only a bit worse than JPN. Only main difference is Adam is less of a ******' tool, but the problems all still exist.

And why the strawman? Nobody, is calling the German one the main canon, and we've said as much a dozen times.

Lastly is that guidebook that was allegedly the official guidebook for Super Metroid. Yeah, it may have been published by Nintendo as an official strategy guide, but there are also a lot of loopholes with it. It was developed by Ape Inc. Which wasn't even affiliated with Nintendo at the time; so it best it would be about as canon as a Nintendo Power comic or a Prima Strategy Guide for various other games. Yes, our canon policies have always been case by case for stuff like this, and tbh they've always been going back and forth. Some have even argued good points for using them if there are reliable interviewers involved in the making of it. And it's even recommended of the original source gives us little to nothing regarding story or lore. However, on the contrary. It is clearly stated in the canon page that if it contradicts a primary canon material; especially a more recent one that retcons the older information, then the primary canon source will take center stage. So by the very rules of our canon page, it is mandatory to prioritize the Metroid Prime information of this guidebook. Furthermore, the guidebook itself has a lot of issues. Not only is it grossly outdated, but it is an outdated version of an outdated book.

Jesus christ man....
Ape making it doesn't matter, it has canon info, introduced and debuted a bunch of canon info, and had access to canon info which they used. It isn't the same as a old Prima book just yapping, the info they put in, came from Nintendo, hence why random shit like FS-176 is used in the ZM Manga.

And the actual point, is that they very evidently Nintendo sourced values from Zebes, aren't some wacky af hyper inflated values. Arguing retconned, outdated, whatever, missing the point. The point, was, that Zebes very clearly was never intended to be some uranium dense planet and has never been conveyed that way before and SINCE, with active contradictions to it.

Why do I say this? Because according to what SomebodyData has said multiple times iirc, people at the Metroid Database website actually have gotten their hands on a physical copy of this rare illusive book; the most recent version of said book before they stopped being sold in stores entirely. And in the end, there have been lots of changes, new tweaks and new tips in the strategy guide. But the most important change they main as far as the topic of this thread is concerned. Is that this image does not exist anymore. Or to be specific, the text at the bottom of the page doesn't exist anymore regarding the planetary parameters. Even the "2nd planet from FS-176" statement is no longer up to date entirely. Metroid Prime has it's 5 planets total, and while the exact order can change back and forth, particularly, Bilium is first while Tallon IV is 5th. It's like Mercury and Jupiter swapped places. But what is commonly consistent is that Zebes is 4th with Twin Tabula being 3rd and Oormine II being 2nd. Why isn't Tallon IV the 4th for consistent measure? And of my friends even tried to argue that the entire image never existed to begin with and was photoshopped by someone who got permabanned from Twitter back in 2014 or so. But I'm unsure about that; either way, it seems actually finding physical copy and not some pirated digital copy might be the best way to prove anything. But even if it did exist, it wouldn't change our canon rules.

Then post the book?

And no, that'd just be another **** up on Prime's end wow them ******* up planetary info regarding Zebes, no way...., Zebes being the 2nd planet is canon, and was even stated in ZM Manga.
"No longer up to date entirely".

Reminder, ZM came out after Prime.
The fact SM stuff said one thing, Prime said diff, then jap stuff again said SM thing, shows a pretty blatant miscommunication. Unless youre about to argue "well the rerelases didnt change it so" as to why it'd somehow go back again (Because they'd even know to change it in the first place?), the ZM manga basically re-rectified it, and if you argue the latter, well cool, just goes to show you how reliable the planet data is if they've changed it 5 times

Which is to say, yeah no, Prime messed up there, every japanese material that shows and talks about it, has it 2nd.

And that last bit, why even talk about that? Prove it? You didnt even show the "updated" scan.

All in all, I can understand concerns for the radius of Zebes validity based on the website that is inaccessible. Though the reasons for the atomic weight without mentioning atomic length/volume are still not objective rebuttals against the width of the planet.

Uh, they never were? They were arguments against it being omega ultra dense. Which, it isnt, we have an idea what the average entails as they give us values giving it a ballpark.

But the primary canon strongly dictates that "4.8 Trillion Teratons" is objectively the most canon description of Zebes mass regardless of logic or realism.

And? Mass =/= Gravity. What's being argued is the gravity.

Also, this post I have been typing for like 7 hours straight + some multitasks here and there regarding conversations or house work stuff. But there are still other things I actually forgot about. Not that any of it would support the whole 954.31 G's; outside if using the official mass from the primary canon of the main games combining it with the backed up lore on the inaccessible website.

Dude, that's support for the mass, NOT gravity, and the website, is effectively the same source, the website for Prime uses the same value as Prime?

But there were quite a few details from Metroid Zero Mission that indicates other facts about Zebes having stronger gravity to an extent; I may research that over the course of the next few days when I am off work, but it will at least be something. And I'll post that next when I can get to it.

Yeah sorry dude, but we're not stalling this for another week.
Nothing in ZM supports it having high gravity.

We see stuff crumble in cutscenes at a normal rate.
Samus' ship falls and explodes at a normal rate.
The game shows us child Samus on Zebes.
Etc.

Talk about game mechanics and whataboutisms, a fact that doesn't even work for Metroid because they do convey that stuff in-game, and then talk about canonicity, completely missing the point, and then talk about density ig, while ignoring we know what the average is and have a frame of reference due to sandstone, and then make stuff up to try to explain away the blatant contradictions, which, no man not how this works.
My brother in christ, you didn't show a single thing supporting high gravity, you even admitted Retro probably had no idea what it entailed, then argued as if they knew.
I like ya dude but wtf do ya want here

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright so, I spent all of today's morning at the hospital due to an injury (ended up being not too bad so don't worry), am pretty tired so I'll only respond in broad lines, hopefully that's fine.

Hopes for speedy recovery then.

I never claimed that the figure was non-canonical. However, the weight itself does not imply that the gravity is canonical. Remember that it solely originates from a fan calculation. That alone would require ulterior proof for it to be accepted today, and very much falls even in the face of mild evidence against it.

Yes, I understand. Mass specifically is indeed canon regardless of whether we consider volume/radius source not we are on board with however? Though there can be a slight flaw that the Star Destroyer assumes Zebes is 100% spherical which is probably isn't. Just like using Earth's parameters for gravity and diameter actually slightly lowballs the mass and GBE. Meaning gravity could be slightly highballed, but would still be within a relatively close range with the given mass and average diameter given to us.

I understand this is only part of this argument but no it is not. It's described as having gas in its atmosphere but that is not exclusive to gas giants- Earth, pretty notable, has gas in its atmosphere. The closest thing is its animation data using "GasPlanet" as the name but besides obviously not being canon information that doesn't really imply much beyond what we already knew- that there's gas.

I'm not sure where it came from entirely myself, where was the origin of "GasPlanet", otherwise still a fair point. But there are still other implications such as it being implied that it's uninhabitable; with gas giant status being a common indicator due to lack of landing zones. Defunct website may still have details unknown to us.

I've already addressed this. It and Bendezium are very clearly referred to as denser than normal- even if they're rare, that would imply that the rest of the planet's materials more or less conform to their mass or are beneath it.

I know this, but even "Denser than normal" is vaguely arguing if it's refers to Zebesian and Tallon chemicals or just minerals and elements throughout the rest of the universe. But still fair to compare it to other parts of the planet; but on to the next point.

Atomic weight and radius tend to be roughly proportional. You could assume all of these materials are somehow an exception... but there would be absolutely no reason to. Especially because being that this is an in-verse database meant to track materials and the like, if they were abnormally compact that'd be noted there.

I'm also aware of this, but fiction is still fiction. Appeal to tradition doesn't apply to materials that are basically a whole bunch of Mythril/Adamantium knock offs. I'm not even trying to argue one way or the other, but more so playing Devil's Advocate here. It's still a double negative situation here which means to basically stick with a neutral and depend on outside sources; such as the canonical mass report with later using the defunct website to justify the pending volume/radius once we get hands; and then just put those together to get the rest of the loose details in check.

"It's minuscule" isn't really much in itself. If gravity were so much higher than Earth's geological processes would be completely different, Earth-like materials would not exist.

I wouldn't say that, Earthly Materials such as Hydrogen or Oxygen could still exist on places with much higher or lower density even if miniscule proportions of it. Though would typically crumble with ease or some loose mixing with other alloys can be explanations; look up Ice-9 as a common example. Temperature can also effect density of objects greatly.

Yes, that doesn't change it from being a fanon calculation. We can't expect writers to have done this math and know its implications.

I don't think "Fanon calculation" would even be a right term anymore if both respective numbers are literally given to us. It's just basic math. It's not fanon to say that 2+2=4. Given the source for our radius is defunct atm admittedly.

If "a programmer's biggest goal is to make a game playable just like it's an animator's job to make an animated scene watchable" a writer's goal is to create a story befitting of the world portrayed by the developers. And guess what- that is never a world with extremely high gravity. Gameplay and writing do not exist in separate fields that only occasionally intersect, both are created with the other mind. "It wouldn't be fun to have high gravity in gameplay" holds up no more weight than "no writer would ever knowingly add incredibly high gravity in the lore a game that does not feature any such thing."

To be clear if the gravity were stated, I would not be using this argument, or at least not relying on it as much, but it isn't. It's derived from some barely important data through a calculation, and in my opinion that is not any more canonical than gameplay portrayal. In fact, it's lower on that scale.

I'm still a Devil's Advocate here. And I doubt either one of us will see eye to eye here. But my points that it would be brutally difficult to be 100% consistent and/or go that far into the gameplay still stand. In game technology would simply not be powerful enough to handle programming that fast combined with the fact that, most players would find such a platformer basically impossible.

And we wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) assume high gravity for those either.

If if it had 6 moons and basically confirmation that the Earthly water, and Uranium are identical to the RL counterparts?

You avoided addressing the main part of the argument- that Samus as an un-augmented 3-years old (And Pyonchi too for that matter) can walk on Zebes' surface just fine. Every other example is merely support- and it's very valid support because don't act like four/five different species of aliens all coincidentally being capable of existing in 960x gravity with zero need for adjustment isn't a contrived assumption.

I was never intending to argue against, but once again play Devil's Advocate. The 3 year old Samus part is reasonable, but unknowns are still just unknowns. That is all I am saying. Whether or not there are "other" reasons that are unexplained or the writers weren't thinking when writing, so be it. Primary Canon parameters are still primary canon parameters.

No, no it did not. Chariot and I have both recently read through the manga several times for indexing purposes, she never does this. She can use it to fly (and she indeed does fly, not jump, in S&J), and nowhere near that high.

Fair, been a while. But in the OG Manga, I know it's still on Zebes albeit within the resting fields of Chozo base. But shortly after her augmentation she could do this. Even if we excluded the 960 G's, water shouldn't slow her down if she was capable of this as a naked 14 year old.

So besides the fact that the Pirates didn't steal the black hole from the Chozo but from some other unknown party, we are straight-up told that the environment is in no way fit for human existence, and there's no other feasible reason for the Chozo to build such devices for a planet in which they can already thrive beyond pure headcanon.

Also, note that in the scan above they say Samus would be fine across all of Brinstar and Crateria, which means that the alleged Chozo gravity tech exists across at least a large chunk of the planet- which makes the assumption even more ludicrous.

I got nothing, but I'll simply agree to disagree. We simply do not know everything the Chozo has barring some trading technologies with Luminoths and other races with super advanced science fantasy tech. Or what alternative motives they could have for other things.

I recently had an off-site chat with someone who informed me of a very funny (and very much no longer true) statement in that same guide. Needless to say I do agree that its current canonicity is questionable, though the fact that Zebes did at some point 100% canonically have normal gravity is still notable (that'd be a very weird thing to retcon).

(I do highly doubt that it'd be photoshopped though, that'd be some pro tier work)

That's some SMT level hax right there; even Absolute Zero can't do that level. Let alone colder than AZ.

I'm sorry, I was already planning to close the post much sooner before you asked to get this post in, I don't think it'd be good to wait for a week or so just for what is ultimately going to be very minor evidence (I don't disagree that with how fast Samus' falling speed is Zebes' gravity could be taken to be a bit higher, but that would be questionable to take literally and still much closer to Earth gravity than to the alleged 960x gravity.

With all of that said, I will probably close this tomorrow. If anyone else has something to say, now would be a good time to do it.

I could either reopen it when ready or simply make a new thread. Also, my goalpost wouldn't be to use it as a justification for the all out 960 G's. But there are cutscenes scenes from Metroid Zero Mission that would be like 5 or 6 G's at minimum. Or even the Zero Suit Samus crash landing scene has some merit. She allegedly fell from what was said to be a lot higher than 1000 km (Though I am open for interpreting the distance might not be accurate one way or the other. Even if it might actually be a high ball). But falling from 1000+ km should not even be possible, let alone at the speed from which she fell if Zebes just had regular Earth level gravity. Since even something like 160km is how high the First Earth Low Orbit Space Station floats above our atmosphere. But I will look into it and either make a new thread or reopen this to post it when I am done.

I will not be posting long posts for a while, including the post Chariot just posted as a response to be that I haven't read yet upon posting this. But may do so after work. But it was good to have some chats and I am glad the hospital situation wasn't too bad. And still hope for good health regardless.