Metroid - Debunking Zebes' 960x Gravity

[Armorchompy]

The Topic​

Currently, many of the Metroid franchise's feats hinge on the planet of Zebes being treated as having gravity roughly 960 times stronger than Earth's [It's actually something like 953x but I'm gonna say 960x because it's close enough]. The reasoning for this is more or less straightforward: In Metroid Prime's Observatory room, scanning the Zebes reproduction claims that it has a mass of "4.8 trillion teratons", which coupled with the radius given by the now defunct Metroid Prime website, gives such a result. Mathematically this is fine, however there are several issues that I will now get into.

Something worth noting is that other planets in the Observatory are also listed as having similar masses. Most relevantly, Tallon IV, which is the game that the first Metroid Prime takes place on.

Evidence against it​

1. Zebes and Tallon IV are never portrayed as having high gravity. This is the most obvious one. In both Super Metroid and Zero Mission we get to walk around on Zebes and Metroid Prime is all set on Tallon IV. While Samus' jump mechanics change pretty wildly between games in the series, it's all roughly close to real life physics. While one could excuse her being able to jump around as a strength feat (that she would indeed be capable of), she would still fall at increased speeds, and so would everything else. [Not posting scans cause like, I dunno, it's literally the entire games, look up a playthrough].
   1. Something worth noting is that Super Metroid starts you on the Ceres Space Colony, which being inhabited would have to have normal gravity, and the jump physics there are the exact same as they are on Zebes. Additionally, both the BSL Station in Metroid Fusion and the BOTTLE SHIP in Other M have both environments fit for humans and for replicating Zebes' environments, and in neither game is there any change in gravity between them.
2. Humans can live on Zebes. Well, sort of. Zebes' environment has canonically always been extremely hostile and unfit for human survival, which has in the past led to the claim that Z-2L, the human colony that was made on that planet, utilized gravity manipulating technology to survive. There is absolutely no statement of this, which makes the assumption already sort of shakey, but it can be straight-up disproved. After Z-2L's destruction Samus as a helpless, not yet genetically enhanced child survives just fine (in the short term, anyways, but 960x gravity would kill you instantly) outside of it, in Chozo areas, which are explicitly stated to not be fit for human life. Mother Brain even mentions that as she is, she'll be able to survive in Brinstar and Crateria (Which makes sense, Tourian, Chozodia and Ridley/Kraid's lairs weren't a thing yet and Norfair's heat would definitely kill her) (Ch2). She undergoes adaptation to be more fit for Zebes, but existing on it unprotected didn't immediately kill her. Speaking of adaptation, Space Pirates are explicitly seeking the same sort of adaptation to live in Zebes' environment (ch8), and yet they're able to walk on it just fine beforehand. This adaptation clearly deals with surviving Zebes' harsh environment, with stuff like acid rains and ability to fend off the wildlife being the actual threat for those who haven't adapted (Ch11), notgravity, which nobody is ever shown to be struggling with.
   1. Worth noting is that the two aliens that follow Samus on Zebes, Mauk and Kreatz, have absolutely no trouble with the gravity. Now, Mauk is established to be very strong, so he's probably fine, but Kreatz, not really. You could say he's got super strength too and nothing would directly disprove that, given he isn't a human, but it'd still be yet another assumption that needs to be true for the gravity stuff to make any sense.
3. We know that Zebes/Tallon IV are not hyper-dense. This one is a bit weird because it relies on information from the defunct Metroid Prime website, but so do the radii of Zebes/Tallon so claiming this information isn't canon also debunks the calc itself, so I'm mentioning it. According to the Observatory, "[Zebes]'s crust is primarily Urthic ore, making it ideal for subterranean construction.", and the website straight-up has a canonical atomic weight (65.332) listed for Bendezium, which is related to Urthic ore. This is above average but not too crazy. Titanium's, for example, is 47.867. Knowing that a planet is made of not hyper-dense materials is a very big knock against the claim that it's hyper-dense.
   1. While it is contrived, one could claim that the gravity is coming from the remainder of the planet, and that Bendezium is simply the outlier in terms of weight. However, the website claims that "Bendezium is an extremely dense solid", thus making it very clear that it's on the higher end of material weights on the planet, not the opposite. There's also the fact that we have data on many other materials that make up the similarly allegedly super-heavy Tallon IV: these include Brinstone, "a stable solid with above average density" and a "compact atomic structure", at 99.987 atomic weight, Cordite, which is also fairly normal in weight, and Sandstone, which is actually a real-life material that they describe pretty accurately. So we know for sure that all of Tallon IV's makeup (as far as interactable materials go, but it'd be silly to assume those all just so happen to be the exception) is actually fairly normal in terms of density.
4. Samus struggles with high pressure. This is a pretty consistent thing. Whenever there's water in Metroid, Samus struggles to move within it, and needs to find the Gravity Suit (or a similar item in one game) to jump around it freely. This counts for water on both Zebes/Tallon IV and normal planets (Notably Fusion is set in a human-inhabited station and water there still slows Samus down). The potential claim that this is all gameplay mechanics doesn't make much sense, given that finding a way past this hurdle is a required part of progression and a commonly stated function of the Gravity Suit/Gravity Boost, but it is also directly debunked by Samus & Joey, where Samus is indeed shown to have trouble moving around in deep water pressure (this was hundreds of meters deep into an ocean of sulfuric acid, which is roughly twice the specific weight of water). Obviously, none of this would be a problem if she really could freely move around in 960x gravity.
   1. Something else worth noting is that any time Samus has to deal with a Gravity Manipulation ability (which is fairly often), she struggles with it until she acquires the Gravity Suit. Now of course you could claim that all of these abilities are just way beyond 960x in intensity (The S&J gravity bomb definitely is), but I'd say it's definitely worth noting how she's never portrayed as having some massive leg up (beyond her sheer durability in S&J) against such conditions.
5. Zebes and Tallon IV's environments does not fit their alleged gravity. This is minor but a planet with incredible gravity would not have precipitations or tall cliffs, which are both very prominent features of both planets.

This isn't properly an argument against the validity of the assumption but as mentioned before, the Metroid Prime website that the planetary sizes of Tallon and Aether come from is down. Archive.org doesn't properly run it [warning, loud], it's not on Flashpoint (Flash game/website archival thingy) and all that survives of it is partial text archival on the Metroid wiki. Now I'm not saying that the planetary sizes are made up or anything, there's like a 99% chance they're real, but it is unverifiable, which makes the gravity stuff a bit questionable (For those unaware, the size of an object is correlated to its gravity, it's not just mass that plays a role). As a side note if anyone knows how to actually view the website properly that'd be great, there's a lot of fairly important scans that rely on it.

What to make of Zebes/Tallon IV's weight, then?​

Metroid Prime's script has gone through a lot of revisions and rewritings throughout the years. First the NTSC script, then the drastically altered PAL script, then the Trilogy release which changed a few things, and recently Metroid Prime Remastered also did a few touch-ups. Throughout all of this, Zebes and Tallon IV's weights have never been changed. I've seen some people use this to debunk the idea that they were an accidental mistake*, since Retro/Nintendo would have had plenty of time to rewrite them.

And sure, that's true. But why would they even look? What was rewritten across the various releases of MP1 was mostly lore inconsistencies regarding the Chozo and Phazon, and everything else was barely changed. Fairly good odds they don't even know what their stated weights imply for their planets, and odds are they don't really care. As beloved as its worldbuilding is, Metroid Prime's usage of scientific terms is rarely very accurate (Just look at the stuff relating to antimatter in Echoes), and it's not exactly obvious to the layman what the normal weight of a planet should be and how it would impact its gravity.

*If you change "trillion" to "billion" in the listed weight for Zebes, you get 4.8x10^24 kg, which is not only a remarkably reasonable weight that is very close to Earth's, it's also the same as the German script for MP1, which directly says 4.8x10^24 kg, and very similar to the very thorough stats listed by the JP Super Metroid guidebook, which says 4.974x10^24 kilograms. Worth noting that the latter actually introduces Zebes being the second planet from its star FS-176, which would later be referenced by a few things including Metroid Prime itself. It's not impossible that they meant to carry the data over and just screwed up the conversion. Now I want it to be clear that all of this is just a theory and very much not a primary argument, that would be the fact that extreme gravity Tallon/Zebes is very inconsistent. I am simply giving a possible explanation for this inconsistency that isn't just "yeah there is more evidence of this than that so we go with this and not that".

Conclusions​

All feats relating to Zebes' gravity, which are the MHS+ speed rating, Zero Suit Samus' durability, Ridley's plateau explosion and all LS feats in the series are no longer viable. We are currently working on replacements, so the profiles will not be edited yet.

Agreements: Armorchompy, CrimsonStarFallen, Chariot190, Tllmbrg, JJSliderman, CloverDragon03, thetechmaster36, Deagonx, SamanPatou

Disagreements: SomebodyData

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Very good breakdown. Agreed.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Might wanna tag SomebodyData for this since I think it was his stuff that got us here in the first place.

 

[Chariot190]

Might wanna tag SomebodyData for this since I think it was his stuff that got us here in the first place.

960g has been around since at least 2010, comicvine, OBD, etc, but yeah
@SomebodyData

 

[Tllmbrg]

Looks good to me

 

[JJSliderman]

Ah…
yeah I got nothing, makes sense to me.

 

[CloverDragon03]

First point isn't the most solid to me but everything else supports it well enough that I feel comfortable supporting this. I agree with the proposed revision

 

[thetechmaster36]

Yeah, this makes sense to me

I know this is somewhat derailing but in terms of replacement feats, I'm not sure about earlier games in the series, but one that comes to mind is the Grapple Beam blocks that Samus pulls on in Dread. I think that's worth calcing, imo

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, this makes sense to me

I know this is somewhat derailing but in terms of replacement feats, I'm not sure about earlier games in the series, but one that comes to mind is the Grapple Beam blocks that Samus pulls on in Dread. I think that's worth calcing, imo

Yeah that's on the list. Honestly good odds Samus actually gets higher LS than she currently does on at least some keys.

 

[Deagonx]

Makes perfect sense to me. There is far far too much speculation that would be needed to maintain this, and the fact that the 1994 official guidebook and other translations of Metroid Prime place it as having an entirely normal weight makes this undeniable IMO.

 

[SomebodyData]

Evidence against it​

1. Zebes and Tallon IV are never portrayed as having high gravity. Your examples here would fall under game mechanics. I'm not sure how anyone in this thread is expecting Samus to fall hundreds of times faster in Super Metroid or Metroid Prime.
2. Humans can live on Zebes. Well, only Samus, it's just more likely Sakamoto (Who was supervising to a degree) didn't think that through. Keep in mind, he also was involved in Samus and Joey, which as you mentioned, has Joey survive a gravity bomb capable of shredding a room.
   1. Worth noting is that the two aliens that follow Samus on Zebes, Mauk and Kreatz, have absolutely no trouble with the gravity. Why would alien superhumans count as a feat against this?
3. We know that Zebes/Tallon IV are not hyper-dense. This would only apply for the U.S. version of Metroid Prime, funnily enough, considering I think that was discussed in a previous one of your threads.
4. Samus struggles with high pressure... The potential claim that this is all gameplay mechanics doesn't make much sense, given that finding a way past this hurdle is a required part of progression and a commonly stated function of the Gravity Suit/Gravity Boost. Other M (unfortunately) kinda throws a wrench on whether Gravity Suit / Gravity Boost is actually required in these games. But assuming we ignore Other M's intro cutscene, its a bit more nuanced than that. Metroid Prime 1 has the Gravity Suit affecting Zebes' gravity to a limited degree, but Samus has no problem in the general area - until she gets in the water. The S&J gravity bomb feat section below also shows her not as impacted by insane gravity as just regular water.
5. Now of course you could claim that all of these abilities are just way beyond 960x in intensity (The S&J gravity bomb definitely is), but I'd say it's definitely worth noting how she's never portrayed as having some massive leg up (beyond her sheer durability in S&J) I understand the point you're trying to make here, but the sheer fact she survives it seems more consistent with being adapted to intense gravity.
6. Zebes and Tallon IV's environments does not fit their alleged gravity. I understand this is minor, but I think you might be looking to deep into this one. Almost no fictional planet fits this, unless we debunked Planet Vegeta's 10x gravity without me knowing.

What to make of Zebes/Tallon IV's weight, then?​

It is a legitimately good theory, but to throw a wrench in the thing, the guide is probably non-canon at this point. The book has been retconned like how Samus was referred to as an outlaw.

 

[SomebodyData]

Makes perfect sense to me. There is far far too much speculation that would be needed to maintain this, and the fact that the 1994 official guidebook and other translations of Metroid Prime place it as having an entirely normal weight makes this undeniable IMO.

I think it's more speculative the other way around? We're assuming that every lore revision ignored the gravity portion and that the same guide that called Samus an outlaw and the weird dream interpretation section still holds up today.

Also, Ape Inc. wasn't actually a part of Nintendo at that time. It'd be like using a Scholastic book for Pokemon as canon.

 

[Deagonx]

I think it's more speculative the other way around? We're assuming that every lore revision ignored the gravity portion and that the same guide that called Samus an outlaw and the weird dream interpretation section still holds up today.

Also, Ape Inc. wasn't actually a part of Nintendo at that time. It'd be like using a Scholastic book for Pokemon as canon.

The guide was published by Nintendo, and includes interviews with the developers. The guide also isn't the only source.

There's a lot of logical obstacles that needed to be smoothed over to think that the Metroid Prime figure is accurate, all of which are resolved by the Guidebook and German translation. The aliens stand on it just fine, before the Chozo know about them. Samus is on it without protection, again before meeting with them when she confronts Ridley as a kid. The list goes on. Nothing in the entire series treats these planets as being super heavy except this single piece of information which is contradicted by another source of information. This is an extremely tenuous basis, as far as I am concerned, and I'm strongly in favor of removing it.

 

[SomebodyData]

The guide was published by Nintendo, and includes interviews with the developers. The guide also isn't the only source.

There's a lot of logical obstacles that needed to be smoothed over to think that the Metroid Prime figure is accurate, all of which are resolved by the Guidebook and German translation. The aliens stand on it just fine, before the Chozo know about them. Samus is on it without protection, again before meeting with them when she confronts Ridley as a kid. The list goes on. Nothing in the entire series treats these planets as being super heavy except this single piece of information which is contradicted by another source of information. This is an extremely tenuous basis, as far as I am concerned, and I'm strongly in favor of removing it.

I wasn't arguing it wasn't officially by Nintendo, just the the guide has probably been retconned or at the very least is shown to be out of date. What is the other source for 4.974x10^24 kilograms?

Why would we consider the German translation? I'm very confused on why this is an argument, in particular? Should I bring up the fact that this is consistent in the US (1, 2, and 3rd revamp), PAL, Wii Play, Trilogy, Remastered versions; the English, Spanish, Korean, and Japanese as well?

"The list goes on."

Unless I'm missing something, those are the only two circumstances where people being on Zebes is being argued to be inconsistent with the gravity. The aliens being superhuman renders that anti-feat moot, while as I pointed out with the Gravity Bomb, this isn't the first time a child survived insane gravity under Sakamoto's supervision, with a feat, funnily enough, that would probably within that gravity range anyways? Although we would have to calc it first, gravity strong enough to make the pirate corpses 'disappear' would probably be pretty high?

Again, I don't see how this is any more tenuous than say, Planet Vegeta's gravity or really any gravity feat. The only thing really is one anti-feat, with the rest being oversights common among gravity feats in fiction.

 

[Deagonx]

The German translation is an additional datapoint. There's no real reason it wouldn't be.

Unless I'm missing something, those are the only two circumstances where people being on Zebes is being argued to be inconsistent with the gravity. The aliens being superhuman with no tiering renders that anti-feat moot (since that's not an anti-feat), while as I pointed out with the Gravity Bomb, this isn't the first time a child survived insane gravity under Sakamoto's supervision, with a feat, funnily enough, that would probably within that gravity range anyways? Although we would have to calc it first, gravity strong enough to make the pirate corpses 'disappear' would probably be pretty high?

Again, I don't see how this is any more tenuous than say, Planet Vegeta's gravity or really any gravity feat. The only thing really is one anti-feat, with the rest being oversights common among gravity feats in fiction.

Comparing this to what is basically a toon force feat in a manga of uncertainty canonictity doesn't really help the case. The idea that the entire Chozo race can all withstand gravity 1,000x Earth and that every planet in this entire solar system is essentially dense enough to create a star also doesn't help matters. The fact that nothing in the game treats any of these locations as having physics suggestive of their absurd mass also doesn't help matters.

Yes, we can technically find ways through any of this if we thread the needle for long enough, but "this specific lore blurb got the unit wrong" is just much simpler as far as I am concerned, especially since we have two other sources that confirm this place is basically Earth sized.

I recognize that you're committed enough to this view that there is no chance of reaching an agreement here, so I'll leave any further responses to Armor.

 

[SomebodyData]

The German translation is an additional datapoint. There's no real reason it wouldn't be.

Fair point, that said, I don't think that's ever been used as a point before. For example, in anime translations we never use the English translation over the Japanese one if there is a difference.

Comparing this to what is basically a toon force feat in a manga of uncertainty canonictity doesn't really help the case. The idea that the entire Chozo race can all withstand gravity 1,000x Earth and that every planet in this entire solar system is essentially dense enough to create a star also doesn't help matters. The fact that nothing in the game treats any of these locations as having physics suggestive of their absurd mass also doesn't help matters.

I mean, if we're arguing its too absurd or toon forcey, I think maybe Metroid isn't the best fiction to follow. There's like, ghosts and bird magic.

If Other M and (surprisingly enough Samus & Joey) didn't basically confirm the manga, then Dread did. Gray Voice is in the background of the Samus Chozo DNA infusion flashback.

Yes, we can technically find ways through any of this if we thread the needle for long enough, but "this specific lore blurb got the unit wrong" is just much simpler as far as I am concerned, especially since we have two other sources that confirm this place is basically Earth sized.

I recognize that you're committed enough to this view that there is no chance of reaching an agreement here, so I'll leave any further responses to Armor.

I understand how you feel, but a lot of it just comes off nitpicky. I know I keep bringing up the planet Vegeta comparison, but that's because it fits for most of the arguments here, the only real issue is the 1 anti-feat.

 

[Armorchompy]

Zebes and Tallon IV are never portrayed as having high gravity. Your examples here would fall under game mechanics. I'm not sure how anyone in this thread is expecting Samus to fall hundreds of times faster in Super Metroid or Metroid Prime.

No they wouldn't, it's pretty consistent portrayal.

Humans can live on Zebes. Well, only Samus, it's just more likely Sakamoto (Who was supervising to a degree) didn't think that through. Keep in mind, he also was involved in Samus and Joey, which as you mentioned, has Joey survive a gravity bomb capable of shredding a room.

"Didn't think that through" is headcanon, and not particularly supported to begin with. Zebes' environment being dangerous is a fairly important thing in the manga, even of that very same scene. Ultimately we can't know if it's a mistake or just the intended portrayal of Zebes so arguing the former doesn't really count for much imo.

Also "only Samus" implies that she would be an exception, but she's a normal, un-amped child then, absolutely not someone who'd live in such circumstances. Besides, there is never any mention of any anti-gravity tech on the human colony protecting them from the gravity (How would they even build it in the first place?). Odds are the humans were just chilling there without needing to deal with the gravity at all.

Joey doesn't survive the gravity bomb, he's very clearly outside of its range. He just got buried in the debris. Sakamoto was also explicitly not involved with S&J, besides possibly lore accuracy checks.

Worth noting is that the two aliens that follow Samus on Zebes, Mauk and Kreatz, have absolutely no trouble with the gravity. Why would alien superhumans count as a feat against this?

Kreatz has no superhuman feats, besides I suppose speed scaling. All he does is harm Space Pirates with a special energy weapon. I mean it's possible that he could have super strength, but the fact that you can assume that he could doesn't mean it's 100% true.

• We know that Zebes/Tallon IV are not hyper-dense. This would only apply for the U.S. version of Metroid Prime, funnily enough, considering I think that was discussed in a previous one of your threads.

Not really, that lore isn't part of the PAL scripts, the website was up well after the PAL releases of Metroid Prime and was never really retconned. Besides again if it doesn't apply we lose Zebes' radius, and therefore its gravity.

Samus struggles with high pressure... The potential claim that this is all gameplay mechanics doesn't make much sense, given that finding a way past this hurdle is a required part of progression and a commonly stated function of the Gravity Suit/Gravity Boost. Other M (unfortunately) kinda throws a wrench on whether Gravity Suit / Gravity Boost is actually required in these games. But assuming we ignore Other M's intro cutscene, its a bit more nuanced than that. Metroid Prime 1 has the Gravity Suit affecting Zebes' gravity to a limited degree, but Samus has no problem in the general area - until she gets in the water. The S&J gravity bomb feat section below also shows her not as impacted by insane gravity as just regular water.

Other M just hates the Gravity Suit. Like there's a whole interview about how they hated having the purple color in cutscenes so they made it a purple glow that only activates when it's necessary (AKA when Samus is in high-gravity areas, which she isn't vs Mother Brain). So it not showing up there is consistent.

I'm not sure I understand your point about Metroid Prime Zebes? If you mean that she can jump around fine on Tallon IV, yeah, my claim is that Tallon has normal gravity, and only the water is what she struggles with.

She is absolutely impacted by the gravity. She's getting completely crushed by it, is unable to move out of the way and there's a fairly strong implication that she'd die, and only survives by turning into a ball which according to the manga, i don't think it's actually true structurally resists pressure very well.

Now of course you could claim that all of these abilities are just way beyond 960x in intensity (The S&J gravity bomb definitely is), but I'd say it's definitely worth noting how she's never portrayed as having some massive leg up (beyond her sheer durability in S&J) I understand the point you're trying to make here, but the sheer fact she survives it seems more consistent with being adapted to intense gravity.

Eh, only the gravity bomb is something that has incredible feats of power, and that one's just a durability feat for her, she literally can't move under it.

Zebes and Tallon IV's environments does not fit their alleged gravity. I understand this is minor, but I think you might be looking to deep into this one. Almost no fictional planet fits this, unless we debunked Planet Vegeta's 10x gravity without me knowing.

You did use the Zebes solar system's asteroids in the Observatory to claim there was something going on with the gravity in the area last time this was discussed so I thought I might as well

What to make of Zebes/Tallon IV's weight, then?​

It is a legitimately good theory, but to throw a wrench in the thing, the guide is probably non-canon at this point. The book has been retconned like how Samus was referred to as an outlaw.

It's definitely canon in some places, it straight-up establishes a lot of future lore (even lore about Zebes itself). Plenty of stuff in even mainline games like Fusion has been retconned, doesn't mean we throw out the whole thing. I think the outlaw thing is just confusion regarding the "bounty hunter" bit, Nintendo just didn't know what that word meant at the time (They thought it just meant "cool space superhero", which is why Captain Falcon is also one).

If Other M and (surprisingly enough Samus & Joey) didn't basically confirm the manga, then Dread did. Gray Voice is in the background of the Samus Chozo DNA infusion flashback.

I think he might have meant Joey wasn't canon? Not sure. It is definitely canon, sort of vaguely so though so I understand his confusion. But the Zero Mission manga is 1000% canon.

 

[Chariot190]

Evidence against it​

1. Zebes and Tallon IV are never portrayed as having high gravity. Your examples here would fall under game mechanics. I'm not sure how anyone in this thread is expecting Samus to fall hundreds of times faster in Super Metroid or Metroid Prime.

Cutscenes exist dog.
And when it's EVERY game, yeah no, they have to actually show it. Reminder, that high gravity, in and of itself, is never said, it's a fancalc.

1. Humans can live on Zebes. Well, only Samus, it's just more likely Sakamoto (Who was supervising to a degree) didn't think that through. Keep in mind, he also was involved in Samus and Joey, which as you mentioned, has Joey survive a gravity bomb capable of shredding a room.

She faceplanted and survived via durability against that bomb. And "didnt think things through" isnt a good argument when the same can apply to the very thing you're argung for.

1. 1. Worth noting is that the two aliens that follow Samus on Zebes, Mauk and Kreatz, have absolutely no trouble with the gravity. Why would alien superhumans count as a feat against this?

Because everyone ever just so happens to have grav res? The old defenseless chozo who need a walking stick too?

• We know that Zebes/Tallon IV are not hyper-dense. This would only apply for the U.S. version of Metroid Prime, funnily enough, considering I think that was discussed in a previous one of your threads.

No? And if you ignore that, you ignore the very reason why Zebes has high grav, you cant have one but not the other.

• Samus struggles with high pressure... The potential claim that this is all gameplay mechanics doesn't make much sense, given that finding a way past this hurdle is a required part of progression and a commonly stated function of the Gravity Suit/Gravity Boost. Other M (unfortunately) kinda throws a wrench on whether Gravity Suit / Gravity Boost is actually required in these games. But assuming we ignore Other M's intro cutscene, its a bit more nuanced than that. Metroid Prime 1 has the Gravity Suit affecting Zebes' gravity to a limited degree, but Samus has no problem in the general area - until she gets in the water.

So? Why are you assuming it's effecting by several hundred times? Hell given what the suit does, it's probably the exact opposite.

• The S&J gravity bomb feat section below also shows her not as impacted by insane gravity as just regular water.

She literally faceplants and cant move? That's a dura feat, not a grav LS feat.

• Now of course you could claim that all of these abilities are just way beyond 960x in intensity (The S&J gravity bomb definitely is), but I'd say it's definitely worth noting how she's never portrayed as having some massive leg up (beyond her sheer durability in S&J) I understand the point you're trying to make here, but the sheer fact she survives it seems more consistent with being adapted to intense gravity.

You realize it's only like a High 8-C feat right?

• Zebes and Tallon IV's environments does not fit their alleged gravity. I understand this is minor, but I think you might be looking to deep into this one. Almost no fictional planet fits this, unless we debunked Planet Vegeta's 10x gravity without me knowing.

Don't wanna be that dude but, didn't you talk about an ASTEROID field not forming a planet in the past? And yet talking about how the planet has absolutely zero indication of high gravity to the point even its geography, is looking to deep?

What to make of Zebes/Tallon IV's weight, then?​

It is a legitimately good theory, but to throw a wrench in the thing, the guide is probably non-canon at this point. The book has been retconned like how Samus was referred to as an outlaw.

Just because some stuff has been, doesn't mean all of it has, especially when a bunch has been directly shown to be canon still, or should we throw out Fusion because Dread retconned a few things from that too?

Again, I don't see how this is any more tenuous than say, Planet Vegeta's gravity or really any gravity feat. The only thing really is one anti-feat, with the rest being oversights common among gravity feats in fiction.

Vegeta is stated 10g dozens of times, including recently, not a fancalc derived by two diff sources.

 

[Chariot190]

Also, Ape Inc. wasn't actually a part of Nintendo at that time. It'd be like using a Scholastic book for Pokemon as canon.

Nintendo Guide standards, especially in Japan and in the west (post 2010s, bar a few exceptions like the OOT one) aint loose dog, that shit needs to be fact-checked and gleamed over and most info is given to them by Nintendo directly, they arent allowed to just yap new lore, if they do, they got it from Nintendo directly. The fact said guide introduced a bunch of stuff, that is explicitly callbacked to in canon games and stuff, tells us they weren't just yapping and were given lore data.

There's a Dark Horse interview talking about how Nintendo goes about this I'd recommend watching, they arent exactly lenient.

Fair point, that said, I don't think that's ever been used as a point before. For example, in anime translations we never use the English translation over the Japanese one if there is a difference.

German is one of Nintendo's main subsides, and Nintendo as a whole is a lil diff.
Metroid too is fucky, like for the 2D games, Japanese takes precedence, but Prime, ENG does. Did you know in japanese, Omega Ridley is another clone, yet he isnt in ENG? Not that it's important to the topic, but Nintendo works on diff rules than a anime, and Metroid even moreso.

I mean, if we're arguing its too absurd or toon forcey, I think maybe Metroid isn't the best fiction to follow. There's like, ghosts and bird magic.

Metroid is extremely non-toon forcey. Bird magic ain't even magic, it's "magic-like technology".
And ghosts fuckn weird but theyre done in a manner of "realism" like the Chozo Ghosts, if that makes sense? Like there's scifi bullshit for most of it.

If Other M and (surprisingly enough Samus & Joey) didn't basically confirm the manga, then Dread did. Gray Voice is in the background of the Samus Chozo DNA infusion flashback.

Gray Voice has been a thing since Super Metroid-time.
But Dread does kinda imply it's canon due to the fact it makes explicit note of two DNA donors, one of which is Thoha, which they wouldn't need to do if the manga wasn't canon, as the manga is the only place it's said a Thoha (Gray) was a donor.
If it wasnt canon they couldve just said yeah it was Burd Napoleon and called it a day.

So yeah sure, but I don't think he meant ZM manga anyway.

Other M (unfortunately) kinda throws a wrench on whether Gravity Suit / Gravity Boost is actually required in these games. But assuming we ignore Other M's intro cutscene,

Dread shows Samus with the Legendary Gravity suit against MB at the end of Super, contrary to the dogass game.
Other M legit did not care, and even if it did, it's been retconned back to being the way it, well how it happened.

 

[JJSliderman]

Should also note this change would arguably downgrade the Mother Brain self destruct feats.

 

[Chariot190]

Probably but like, nobody scales to that anyway or they scale above it

Not really worth ******* with i think ya can maybe mental gymnastics a way for a few to scale but eh, not that solid as a foundation

 

[JJSliderman]

Well, yeah, maybe entities like Gorea.

 

[SomebodyData]

No they wouldn't, it's pretty consistent portrayal.

Yeah, pretty consistently when you look at the gameplay. That's like me arguing Sonic is weak to spikes because its consistent in his gameplay.

"Didn't think that through" is headcanon, and not particularly supported to begin with. Zebes' environment being dangerous is a fairly important thing in the manga, even of that very same scene. Ultimately we can't know if it's a mistake or just the intended portrayal of Zebes so arguing the former doesn't really count for much imo.

Also "only Samus" implies that she would be an exception, but she's a normal, un-amped child then, absolutely not someone who'd live in such circumstances. Besides, there is never any mention of any anti-gravity tech on the human colony protecting them from the gravity (How would they even build it in the first place?). Odds are the humans were just chilling there without needing to deal with the gravity at all.

Joey doesn't survive the gravity bomb, he's very clearly outside of its range. He just got buried in the debris. Sakamoto was also explicitly not involved with S&J, besides possibly lore accuracy checks.

I mean, sure. Let's say its headcanon, Joey and Samus still survived the gravity bomb, so either way they can survive the intense gravity.

K-2L never had the insane gravity of Zebes or Tallon IV, though? Why would they need anti-gravity tech.

Well the bomb also took the roof, so he was in the range. Also your link was explicitly about the thumbs down scene, and even then the author notes Nintendo oversaw that.

Kreatz has no superhuman feats, besides I suppose speed scaling. All he does is harm Space Pirates with a special energy weapon. I mean it's possible that he could have super strength, but the fact that you can assume that he could doesn't mean it's 100% true.

So the only scaling we have for Kreatz is to space pirates, who are superhuman? Either way you're making a pretty big assumption by considering them human level.

Not really, that lore isn't part of the PAL scripts, the website was up well after the PAL releases of Metroid Prime and was never really retconned. Besides again if it doesn't apply we lose Zebes' radius, and therefore its gravity.

Why would the U.S. site apply for the PAL script? They have their own EU site. VSB usually just uses Earth's size when it comes to planet feats anyways, its not much of a difference.

Other M just hates the Gravity Suit. Like there's a whole interview about how they hated having the purple color in cutscenes so they made it a purple glow that only activates when it's necessary (AKA when Samus is in high-gravity areas, which she isn't vs Mother Brain). So it not showing up there is consistent.

I'm not sure I understand your point about Metroid Prime Zebes? If you mean that she can jump around fine on Tallon IV, yeah, my claim is that Tallon has normal gravity, and only the water is what she struggles with.

She is absolutely impacted by the gravity. She's getting completely crushed by it, is unable to move out of the way and there's a fairly strong implication that she'd die, and only survives by turning into a ball which according to the manga, i don't think it's actually true structurally resists pressure very well.

Eh, only the gravity bomb is something that has incredible feats of power, and that one's just a durability feat for her, she literally can't move under it.

I agree that Other M's staff hates the suit, but you can't just ignore it.

I'm pointing out that in Prime, the Gravity Suit is stated to alter the gravity of its surrounding areas. Samus is completely unaffected by that but is by water, showing its pretty clearly game mechanics at play.

I mean the fact that she isn't insta killed is the feat, with or without the morph ball.

It also seems to kinda weird to see someone survive insane gravity and say its purely a durability feat and not something to do with adaption to high gravity.

You did use the Zebes solar system's asteroids in the Observatory to claim there was something going on with the gravity in the area last time this was discussed so I thought I might as well

I genuinely don't remember having this convo with you before haha.

It's definitely canon in some places, it straight-up establishes a lot of future lore (even lore about Zebes itself). Plenty of stuff in even mainline games like Fusion has been retconned, doesn't mean we throw out the whole thing. I think the outlaw thing is just confusion regarding the "bounty hunter" bit, Nintendo just didn't know what that word meant at the time (They thought it just meant "cool space superhero", which is why Captain Falcon is also one).

I think he might have meant Joey wasn't canon? Not sure. It is definitely canon, sort of vaguely so though so I understand his confusion. But the Zero Mission manga is 1000% canon.

Yeah, it's funny in hindsight Nintendo not knowing what an outlaw is, but it would still count as a retcon.

 

[SomebodyData]

Nintendo Guide standards, especially in Japan and in the west (post 2010s, bar a few exceptions like the OOT one) aint loose dog, that shit needs to be fact-checked and gleamed over and most info is given to them by Nintendo directly, they arent allowed to just yap new lore, if they do, they got it from Nintendo directly. The fact said guide introduced a bunch of stuff, that is explicitly callbacked to in canon games and stuff, tells us they weren't just yapping and were given lore data.

There's a Dark Horse interview talking about how Nintendo goes about this I'd recommend watching, they arent exactly lenient.

Pre-Shogakukan Nintendo was extremely lenient to the point that almost no franchise uses anything established from that time period (except maybe Mario? But they never had Apes Inc writing their guides and are already wonky with their canon so idk if that counts), even if we ignore the example that was already retconned or the real-life dream interpreter sequence in that same guide that clearly isn't canon. Or the chibi 4-komaesque portion.

German is one of Nintendo's main subsides, and Nintendo as a whole is a lil diff.
Metroid too is fucky, like for the 2D games, Japanese takes precedence, but Prime, ENG does. Did you know in japanese, Omega Ridley is another clone, yet he isnt in ENG? Not that it's important to the topic, but Nintendo works on diff rules than a anime, and Metroid even moreso.

Isn't Omega Ridley proving my point though? We don't include a Japanese exclusive piece of lore for a game originally in English, why wouldn't we do the same for its German translation?

Metroid is extremely non-toon forcey. Bird magic ain't even magic, it's "magic-like technology".
And ghosts fuckn weird but theyre done in a manner of "realism" like the Chozo Ghosts, if that makes sense? Like there's scifi bullshit for most of it.

The point was that there still requires a sense of disbelief for the series, unless Deagonx literally meant the gravity stuff was toon-forcey. Not sure how to respond to their point there in that case.

Gray Voice has been a thing since Super Metroid-time.
But Dread does kinda imply it's canon due to the fact it makes explicit note of two DNA donors, one of which is Thoha, which they wouldn't need to do if the manga wasn't canon, as the manga is the only place it's said a Thoha (Gray) was a donor.
If it wasnt canon they couldve just said yeah it was Burd Napoleon and called it a day.

Well sorta, depends if you think he appears in Blood of the Chozo or if it is just a massive coincidence. Yeah I agree with what you said though.

So yeah sure, but I don't think he meant ZM manga anyway.



Dread shows Samus with the Legendary Gravity suit against MB at the end of Super, contrary to the dogass game.
Other M legit did not care, and even if it did, it's been retconned back to being the way it, well how it happened.

Not sure if we're to take the bonus artwork for the other games as canon or anything other than just cool art, unless we want to state that basic power suit Samus killed Mother Brain in Zero Mission or basic fusion suit Samus fought SA-X.

Also completely off topic but - why does the artwork add more green to Samus' suit in the Super Metroid one, is this the Mandela effect lmao?

 

[Chariot190]

Well, yeah, maybe entities like Gorea.

Yeah uh, not him, at all. He's so far disconnected that him and Zebes as a whole shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.

Yeah, pretty consistently when you look at the gameplay. That's like me arguing Sonic is weak to spikes because its consistent in his gameplay.

And it's a video game? And yet, in EVERY game, it's similar, and in games where there are both alleged 960g recreations and 1g environments, no difference exist.

You'd have a point if they actually said there was high grav, but they dont, you're assuming it must so every fucky is "just gameplay".
Huge false equivalence, Sonic dying to spikes isnt an inconsistent fancalc.

I mean, sure. Let's say its headcanon, Joey and Samus still survived the gravity bomb, so either way they can survive the intense gravity.

Samus ate dirt, she wasnt doing 50ft somersaults, the actual tanking part of it is High 8-Cish.

And Joey literally didnt, the bomb just ate some of the metal linings, causing the shop to collapse.

K-2L never had the insane gravity of Zebes or Tallon IV, though? Why would they need anti-gravity tech.

I think he meant Zebes has a human colony at one point? idk, dont matter tho.

Well the bomb also took the roof, so he was in the range. Also your link was explicitly about the thumbs down scene, and even then the author notes Nintendo oversaw that.

He was on a pipe. The grav bomb ****** up an area, destroyed supports, he fell.

He wasn't at all in range.

So the only scaling we have for Kreatz is to space pirates, who are superhuman? Either way you're making a pretty big assumption by considering them human level.

Dude, not how it works, you dont get to assume bro is Class K/M because Zebes MUST have strong gravity, when the argument is it DOESNT for a bunch of reasons, such as 3yo Sam holding Pyochi. Like Class 25 3yo?

Why would the U.S. site apply for the PAL script? They have their own EU site. VSB usually just uses Earth's size when it comes to planet feats anyways, its not much of a difference.

Yeah nah dog, if a planet is stated 1000x heavier than Earth, we dont then assume it's Earth size, we assume it's a big ass planet.
But no website? No calc.

I agree that Other M's staff hates the suit, but you can't just ignore it.

Dread exists.

I'm pointing out that in Prime, the Gravity Suit is stated to alter the gravity of its surrounding areas. Samus is completely unaffected by that but is by water, showing its pretty clearly game mechanics at play.

How? They dont say what it's doing, and it's only in that chamber mind you.

I mean the fact that she isn't insta killed is the feat, with or without the morph ball.

She eats dirt dude, youre arguing she can jump 25m+ on a 1000g planet? Every jump, given her effective weight and innane accel would PULV the ground.

It also seems to be in bad faith to see someone survive insane gravity and say its purely a durability feat and not something to do with adaption to high gravity.

Self fulfilling argument. Prove Zebes has high gravity first.

Also it's LITERALLY a dura feat man, she couldnt stand. And then the water pressure ocean feat, which I calced btw, she couldnt even stand till she got a amp, yet if she could jump like 5m on a 960g planet, she WOULD be able to pretty fine.

Yeah, it's funny in hindsight Nintendo not knowing what an outlaw is, but it would still count as a retcon.

Do we discard Super Metroid because Other M retconned the Grav suit according to your arguments?

I mean, sure. Let's say its headcanon, Joey and Samus still survived the gravity bomb, so either way they can survive the intense gravity.

Joey cant. Samus can but she cant walk around or move in it fine.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I might write something after work.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, pretty consistently when you look at the gameplay. That's like me arguing Sonic is weak to spikes because its consistent in his gameplay.

No it's not, not at all in fact. The environmental conditions of the Metroid planets are pretty accurately replicated in the games themselves given they're Samus' main obstacles a lot of the time. It'd be more like saying that Bowser's Castle doesn't actually have lava in it we only see it that way in gameplay which i don't think is true but you get the metaphor

K-2L never had the insane gravity of Zebes or Tallon IV, though? Why would they need anti-gravity tech.

Yeah fair there, got my events mixed up. Nevermind that bit.

Well the bomb also took the roof, so he was in the range.

No he wasn't, it just made the entire building cave in by tearing up the floor, but the bomb itself only hit Samus and a few fodders who died to it. I mean like, think about it, how could Joey, a physically normal kid survive the bomb when Samus would have died to it without the Morph Ball?

So the only scaling we have for Kreatz is to space pirates, who are superhuman? Either way you're making a pretty big assumption by considering them human level.

You're making an equally big one when you say that he isn't, that's my whole point, that there's a lot of assumptions to be made just for the gravity stuff (which again, is based on a fan calc) to make any sense at all. And no, he doesn't scale to them in physical AP.

Why would the U.S. site apply for the PAL script? They have their own EU site. VSB usually just uses Earth's size when it comes to planet feats anyways, its not much of a difference.

Trilogy was released in the US and the site wasn't changed at all then and stayed up for like a whole decade afterwards, if they considered the information in it outdated they'd have changed it or took the site down, but they didn't (keep in mind this isn't just them forgetting about it, they have to pay for websites like that so they definitely knew).

And no you absolutely would not assume a planet that's 800 times the weight of Earth is the same size as it is, that assumption only counts for Earth-like planets.

I agree that Other M's staff hates the suit, but you can't just ignore it.

I'm not ignoring it, the Gravity suit in Other M isn't always visible, the purple glow just shows up when there's a high gravity area, so it had no reason to be visible in that scene even though she did have it. Also like, we literally know Samus did get the Gravity Suit (Well, it's called the Gravity Feature in Other M) in SM given she has access to it in Other M, which comes right after.

I'm pointing out that in Prime, the Gravity Suit is stated to alter the gravity of its surrounding areas. Samus is completely unaffected by that but is by water, showing its pretty clearly game mechanics at play.

All we know is that it emits "unusual gravity patterns" but we don't know what that means at all. To claim that it's warping gravity with such potency and range that Samus would be affected while approaching it is complete headcanon.

It also seems to be in bad faith to see someone survive insane gravity and say its purely a durability feat and not something to do with adaption to high gravity.

Well, I'm sorry but it literally just is a durability feat, if someone is 3-A with Class 5 LS and you put a 40-ton weight on them they're not gonna die.

I genuinely don't remember having this convo with you before haha.

I think it was with Somelatinguy, back in 2021. Regardless the fifth point was very minor, so feel free to not address it. The asteroid stuff got retconned by MPR btw, it's just space dust now

Yeah, it's funny in hindsight Nintendo not knowing what an outlaw is, but it would still count as a retcon.

Ok, but it's at best a very minor one, no reason to throw out the whole thing when a lot of stuff is 100% still being treated as canonical.

 

[Chariot190]

Pre-Shogakukan Nintendo was extremely lenient to the point that almost no franchise uses anything established from that time period (except maybe Mario? But they never had Apes Inc writing their guides and are already wonky with their canon so idk if that counts), even if we ignore the example that was already retconned or the real-life dream interpreter sequence in that same guide that clearly isn't canon. Or the chibi 4-komaesque portion.

Mario, Zelda, and Metroid all do, the issue is most just later changed what they were doing. But based on what? Sure cant be the SM guide given how much of it was used and made canon.

I dont think you understand dude, just because some stuff is retconned, doesnt mean it all is, because we know it hasnt.

By your logic, only Dread is canon because every Metroid has retcons to other ones, I can list a dozen or two examples if ya want.

Isn't Omega Ridley proving my point though? We don't include a Japanese exclusive piece of lore for a game originally in English, why wouldn't we do the same for its German translation?

Missed the point entirely. The fact someone over at German nintendo went "hey yeah no this ******* stupid and makes no sense" aint a good sign.
And Nintendo isnt anime.

The point was that there still requires a sense of disbelief for the series, unless Deagonx literally meant the gravity stuff was toon-forcey. Not sure how to respond to their point there in that case.

Just dont. Metroid isnt toonforcey, bar like 3 gag panels which effect nothing.

Well sorta, depends if you think he appears in Blood of the Chozo or if it is just a massive coincidence. Yeah I agree with what you said though.

He appears in a Fusion Child ending with Old Burd too, an image which would later be used in the ZM manga directly as a panel.

And nah 100% him. Tall Chozo chilling with Old has always been a thing, he was just given a name.

Not sure if we're to take the bonus artwork for the other games as canon or anything other than just cool art, unless we want to state that basic power suit Samus killed Mother Brain in Zero Mission or basic fusion suit Samus fought SA-X.

The Dread Gallery shows canon events like Elun infection, the ending arts, which that is, has always been canon to some degree. Childhood endings in F show her childhood before even before the ZM manga for example.

And uh, yeah actually, in ZM, the suit she enters Tourian in, is the basic power suit design (it's Varia, but it looks like power, till the Ruins, in which it adopts the iconic look).


Literally the same, the ZM art is just muted to shit but it's orange, ya can tell by looking at her inner thighs where the light shines.

And SA-X? Why you assuming she's fighting it there, prob about to run tf away like she does in game.

Either way, Dread more recent and corroborates the ACTUAL game, she had gravity suit. The alternative, btw, is to delete it from the SM key and everything tied to it, if ya arguing she secretly didnt have it (weird too given she gets it in the place she fought Phantoon, a boss in OM no less).

Also completely off topic but - why does the artwork add more green to Samus' suit in the Super Metroid one, is this the Mandela effect lmao?

Looks like a bit of the gray was drawn a bit green yeah.

Well, I'm sorry but it literally just is a durability feat, if someone is 3-A with Class 5 LS and you put a 40-ton weight on them they're not gonna die.

 

[Chariot190]

 

[SomebodyData]

Ngl, that's a great edit.

But on a serious note, that's like the best example of gameplay mechanics I can think of in this universe. Samus isn't going to jump 960x higher after getting the gravity suit because that would break the game like crazy. Especially in a game where jumps play a critical role in gameplay.

 

[Chariot190]

Ngl, that's a great edit.

But on a serious note, that's like the best example of gameplay mechanics I can think of in this universe. Samus isn't going to jump 960x higher after getting the gravity suit because that would break the game like crazy. Especially in a game where jumps play a critical role in gameplay.

Yeah but that's the thing, that only works if it actually has 1000x gravity.

The games have no issue messing with her jump height, and there exists gravity attacks and stuff that also affect her jump height, so the game 100% is fine fuckn with it.
And the grav suit negates all this, fixing her jump height back, making high grav stuff useless, etc.

Yet, apparently, never once, in even 1 game, affect her while on the alleged 1000g planet? Even while moving between 1000g and 1g places? Even if it was just a lil, it doesnt need to be 1000x jump, but at least do ******* something. In fact, good idea, why even have stuff like High Jump? Why not tie high jumping to Grav Suit as a way to reflect stuff high grav?
It just doesnt make any sense, they can do stuff like that, they DO do stuff like that, but not for this in particular?

 

[SomebodyData]

No it's not, not at all in fact. The environmental conditions of the Metroid planets are pretty accurately replicated in the games themselves given they're Samus' main obstacles a lot of the time. It'd be more like saying that Bowser's Castle doesn't actually have lava in it we only see it that way in gameplay which i don't think is true but you get the metaphor

In these games, gravity in gameplay is treated as normal no matter the environment. Even in outer space with 0gs, Samus isn't floating in space and walks just fine. Hell, the Prime's game engine technically has her at 2.5x the gravity of Earth, in space and on Tallon IV, contradicting the gravity suggested in your op. So, clearly, the gameplay isn't supposed to reflect the actual gravity of the location it would also be literally impossible as all projectiles would crash the game going at such insane speeds.

The Bowser castle comparison would be if the lore says Bowser has an army at his castle, but since in gameplay we only see a couple of grunts, that instead we say he has no actual army.

No he wasn't, it just made the entire building cave in by tearing up the floor, but the bomb itself only hit Samus and a few fodders who died to it. I mean like, think about it, how could Joey, a physically normal kid survive the bomb when Samus would have died to it without the Morph Ball?

He was still in the building, and it took the rest of the roof of the building, he was clearly in the blast range. I'm not saying its logical, any moreso than chozo ghosts at least, I'm just saying that's what happened.

You're making an equally big one when you say that he isn't, that's my whole point, that there's a lot of assumptions to be made just for the gravity stuff (which again, is based on a fan calc) to make any sense at all. And no, he doesn't scale to them in physical AP.

I'm not using them as proof of 960x gravity though, I'm not making any claim regarding their stats. I'm pointing out they have unknown stats and therefore can't be used as an anti-feat.

Trilogy was released in the US and the site wasn't changed at all then and stayed up for like a whole decade afterwards, if they considered the information in it outdated they'd have changed it or took the site down, but they didn't (keep in mind this isn't just them forgetting about it, they have to pay for websites like that so they definitely knew).

And no you absolutely would not assume a planet that's 800 times the weight of Earth is the same size as it is, that assumption only counts for Earth-like planets.

Was the website even updated after Prime 2 came out when the site was abandoned or still online during the Trilogy release? Either way, even if we assume it's still canon to the PAL version, there's still a lot of assumptions here.

Why would the Bendezium, which yes, is found near Urthic ore, but is still relatively really rare - like only a couple boulders found in the game rare, being considered the average for the crust? Why is the crust's bendezium being considered one of the heaviest materials on the planet when even brinstone is significantly denser and more plentiful, with only the description of above average in weight? The whole statement is in relative to the Earth which just throws a giant wrench in there too, as shown with the statements comparing the environments for terrestrials.

I'm not ignoring it, the Gravity suit in Other M isn't always visible, the purple glow just shows up when there's a high gravity area, so it had no reason to be visible in that scene even though she did have it. Also like, we literally know Samus did get the Gravity Suit (Well, it's called the Gravity Feature in Other M) in SM given she has access to it in Other M, which comes right after.

Unfortunately, there's no evidence for the gravity feature either. I hate pulling out the Other M card, but yeah, Other M doesn't show it as the case.

All we know is that it emits "unusual gravity patterns" but we don't know what that means at all. To claim that it's warping gravity with such potency and range that Samus would be affected while approaching it is complete headcanon.

Well, I'm sorry but it literally just is a durability feat, if someone is 3-A with Class 5 LS and you put a 40-ton weight on them they're not gonna die.

I don't actually have to prove its warping gravity to such a high extent, just that the changes in gravity aren't shown in gameplay. Which is correct, because as I've mentioned above, they've never considered the planet's gravity in gameplay.

I get where you're coming from, but the wiki has never seen a gravity feat being resisted and said it's only a durability feat. It's usually either shown as a resistance to high gravity or adaptation.

I think it was with Somelatinguy, back in 2021. Regardless the fifth point was very minor, so feel free to not address it. The asteroid stuff got retconned by MPR btw, it's just space dust now

Ok, but it's at best a very minor one, no reason to throw out the whole thing when a lot of stuff is 100% still being treated as canonical.

I feel like the point about Samus being an outlaw in the guide is overshadowing the whole dream interpretation sequence, where Samus talks to a real life dream interpreter about her dreams? Or the 4-komaesque segments with Samus.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah but that's the thing, that only works if it actually has 1000x gravity.

The games have no issue messing with her jump height, and there exists gravity attacks and stuff that also affect her jump height, so the game 100% is fine fuckn with it.
And the grav suit negates all this, fixing her jump height back, making high grav stuff useless, etc.

Yet, apparently, never once, in even 1 game, affect her while on the alleged 1000g planet? Even while moving between 1000g and 1g places? Even if it was just a lil, it doesnt need to be 1000x jump, but at least do ******* something. In fact, good idea, why even have stuff like High Jump? Why not tie high jumping to Grav Suit as a way to reflect stuff high grav?
It just doesnt make any sense, they can do stuff like that, they DO do stuff like that, but not for this in particular?

Explain how the game would implement 960x gravity into her jump height? I legitimately do not see how this could possibly be implemented without fundamentally shattering the game design.

That or I'm completely missing your point, but it looks like you're actually arguing that they would have just added the gravity to the game? I'm sorry if I really am misunderstanding.

 

[Chariot190]

Explain how the game would implement 960x gravity into her jump height? I legitimately do not see how this could possibly be implemented without fundamentally shattering the game design.

That or I'm completely missing your point, but it looks like you're actually arguing that they would have just added the gravity to the game? I'm sorry if I really am misunderstanding.

Do ******* SOMETHING, even just 2x jump, hell I just said why not have grav act as high jump instead of, well high jump?
There's a bunch of ways to reflect it, or even better just say "yeah zeebs has intense grav lol".

In these games, gravity in gameplay is treated as normal no matter the environment. Even in outer space with 0gs, Samus isn't floating in space and walks just fine.

Bad example. That's a colonized space station, she landed on the docking bay, not the vacuum.
Also she LITERALLY jumps 50ft bro.

Hell, the Prime's game engine technically has her at 2.5x the gravity of Earth, in space and on Tallon IV, contradicting the gravity suggested in your op. So, clearly, the gameplay isn't supposed to reflect the actual gravity of the location it would also be literally impossible as all projectiles would crash the game going at such insane speeds.

2.5x aint 960g. And no? Tallon is an alleged ultra mega giga g planet right?

The Bowser castle comparison would be if the lore says Bowser has an army at his castle, but since in gameplay we only see a couple of grunts, that instead we say he has no actual army.

You, do realize they never say any of these planets has extreme gravity right?

He was still in the building, and it took the rest of the roof of the building, he was clearly in the blast range.

He LITERALLY wasnt, it didnt take the roof, that's what COLLAPSED?


That's the AOE. Ya can even see the metal bits, they're flattened, but when they exit the hole AOE, they arent.

And even then


He didnt tank shit even then man....

I'm not using them as proof of 960x gravity though, I'm not making any claim regarding their stats. I'm pointing out they have unknown stats and therefore can't be used as an anti-feat.

800 year old burd that needs a walking stick even on 1g planets

Was the website even updated after Prime 2 came out when the site was abandoned or still online during the Trilogy release? Either way, even if we assume it's still canon to the PAL version, there's still a lot of assumptions here.

Dude, you either accept it (because they def 100% retconned the density of sandstone?) or no calc to begin with.

Why would the Bendezium, which yes, is found near Urthic ore, but is still relatively really rare - like only a couple boulders found in the game rare,

Doesnt matter.

being considered the average for the crust?

Man, like a whole chunk of the map is made of SANDSTONE, or basic rock.

Why is the crust's bendezium being considered one of the heaviest materials on the planet when even brinstone is significantly denser and more plentiful, with only the description of above average in weight?

Wouldnt even matter, if we know what the average is, we can figure out a median via all these values.

The whole statement is in relative to the Earth which just throws a giant wrench in there too, as shown with the statements comparing the environments for terrestrials.

Normal humans man....

I don't actually have to prove its warping gravity to such a high extent, just that the changes in gravity aren't shown in gameplay. Which is correct, because as I've mentioned above, they've never considered the planet's gravity in gameplay.

You do though? Gravity doesn't mean anything. Even an apple has gravity. And it doesnt even say it's effecting the whole area. Hell given we know what it does, the unusual patterns, probably talking about IT. As in, some fuckass object over there has its own gravity, or isnt effected by gravity as other stuff or whatever because that's what the gravity suit does. Why WOULD it effect Samus? It doesnt effect the enviroment, but itself.

I get where you're coming from, but the wiki has never seen a gravity feat being resisted and said it's only a durability feat. It's usually either shown as a resistance to high gravity or adaptation.

We do it all the time?
Hell here's one.

I feel like the point about Samus being an outlaw in the guide is overshadowing the whole dream interpretation sequence, where Samus talks to a real life dream interpreter about her dreams? Or the 4-komaesque segments with Samus.

Again, just because some stuff eventually got cycled out or retconned, like any verse, doesnt mean all of it has, some of it is EXPLICITLY still canon, used, and whatnot despite originating from it.

 

[Armorchompy]

In these games, gravity in gameplay is treated as normal no matter the environment. Even in outer space with 0gs, Samus isn't floating in space and walks just fine. Hell, the Prime's game engine technically has her at 2.5x the gravity of Earth, in space and on Tallon IV, contradicting the gravity suggested in your op. So, clearly, the gameplay isn't supposed to reflect the actual gravity of the location it would also be literally impossible as all projectiles would crash the game going at such insane speeds.

Orpheon 100% has gravity, it was inhabited by Space Pirates whose ships literally always have gravity in them, and even had a bunch of creatures plucked off various planets that you wouldn't want to raise in 0 g for no reason.

Also like, yeah the games aren't fully realistic in depiction, so what? If 960x gravity was a thing it'd be an incredibly important part of the worldbuilding and they'd definitely make the games reflect it, and yet they don't. No writer on the planet randomly adds in such a massive fact in a random bit of lore that will be downright contrasted by both previous, current and future portrayal. It's not shown in the japanese games, it's not shown in the american games, it's not shown in spinoffs, it's not shown in cutscenes, it's not shown in mangas, it's not shown in promotional material, it's never even stated to be a thing, you're getting ALL of this from a fancalc.

He was still in the building, and it took the rest of the roof of the building, he was clearly in the blast range. I'm not saying its logical, any moreso than chozo ghosts at least, I'm just saying that's what happened.

When you tear down 80% of a building's structure, usually the roof comes crashing down. It is perfectly logical, in fact, just not the way you're interpreting it. We literally see the actual range of the bomb clearly outlined man, this isn't up for debate.

Also let's realize that you're arguing that a child can tank a 5-B gigacrusher gravity bomb capable of nearly killing one of the strongest beings in the galaxy.

I'm not using them as proof of 960x gravity though, I'm not making any claim regarding their stats. I'm pointing out they have unknown stats and therefore can't be used as an anti-feat.

"Yeah this random alien with zero strength feats can casually lift 10000 tons and doesn't even remark on the weight when first landing" isn't a smaller assumption than "Retro writers didn't know the implications of the planetary weight they wrote down".

Also, just a quick reminder, Old Bird uses a walking stick on the human colony. Like he'd literally be Superman there, unless it's a fashion choice it doesn't make much sense. (And also, Samus, again, as a 3 years old, do be walking on Zebes)

Was the website even updated after Prime 2 came out when the site was abandoned or still online during the Trilogy release? Either way, even if we assume it's still canon to the PAL version, there's still a lot of assumptions here.

The Metroid sites were up until after FedForce. I'm not sure why you expect a website pertaining to Prime 1 to be updated when the sequel comes out, but unless it was pulled before Trilogy

Why is the crust's bendezium being considered one of the heaviest materials on the planet when even brinstone is significantly denser and more plentiful, with only the description of above average in weight?

Because both Bendezium and Brinstone are described to be above average- That means that most of the rest of the planet is less heavy than them.

Unfortunately, there's no evidence for the gravity feature either. I hate pulling out the Other M card, but yeah, Other M doesn't show it as the case.

She literally 100% had it because she has it in Other M, and she did zero work between it and Super Metroid so we know it came from there, as does every single other item in Other M (Except for the Seeker Missiles, which are the only one you have to obtain), there is no other conceivable way she'd have gotten it beyond complete headcanon. Also "there is no evidence" is really dumb because we always assume Samus got all needed items in every game by default, it not being visible is absence of further proof but it isn't evidence against her having it, it's like saying "oh we don't see the grapple beam so she couldn't have had it", it makes no sense because you couldn't see it even if she had it!

I don't actually have to prove its warping gravity to such a high extent, just that the changes in gravity aren't shown in gameplay. Which is correct, because as I've mentioned above, they've never considered the planet's gravity in gameplay.

You do have to prove it. "Warping gravity" could just mean "objects within 30 centimeters of it are 1.03% heavier than usual", there is absolutely no reason to assume it'd be something you could notice even if everything were realistically portrayed. And they've never considered the planet's gravity in gameplay because they've never given any planet unusual gravity, no writing team on earth would take a game that has normal gravity and just give it 900x gravity without it being reflected in anything in the slightest.

I get where you're coming from, but the wiki has never seen a gravity feat being resisted and said it's only a durability feat. It's usually either shown as a resistance to high gravity or adaptation.

I dunno about the wild west days guarantee to you that today the wiki would not grant gravity resistance to someone for surviving but being unable to move under heavy gravity. It'd be like giving a 4-A character Resistance to Explosion Manipulation for tanking a rocket launcher.

I feel like the point about Samus being an outlaw in the guide is overshadowing the whole dream interpretation sequence, where Samus talks to a real life dream interpreter about her dreams? Or the 4-komaesque segments with Samus.

Those are obviously meant to be fun neat things, the guide isn't presenting them as canon. But Samus being obsessed with orbs is 100% canon, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Chariot190]

But Samus being obsessed with orbs is 100% canon,

Correct.

 

[SomebodyData]

Do ******* SOMETHING, even just 2x jump, hell I just said why not have grav act as high jump instead of, well high jump?
There's a bunch of ways to reflect it, or even better just say "yeah zeebs has intense grav lol".

Bad example. That's a colonized space station, she landed on the docking bay, not the vacuum.
Also she LITERALLY jumps 50ft bro.

2.5x aint 960g. And no? Tallon is an alleged ultra mega giga g planet right?

You, do realize they never say any of these planets has extreme gravity right?

I brought up the in-game physics engine's gravity to show they don't take into consideration different planets' gravity across all Prime games in their gameplay, your last statement there literally reflects that.

That docking station was in the vacuum of space. Also, she literally walks through a depressurized room with no changes, just a few moments later?

He LITERALLY wasnt, it didnt take the roof, that's what COLLAPSED?


That's the AOE. Ya can even see the metal bits, they're flattened, but when they exit the hole AOE, they arent.

And even then


He didnt tank shit even then man....

..Yeah, you know in the page you sent he's hanging off the roof in the bottom right panel, right?

...And in the panel you sent for him not tanking the bomb, they literally said it was for the rubble? How would energy shields protect you from gravity in the first place?

800 year old burd that needs a walking stick even on 1g planets

Dude, you either accept it (because they def 100% retconned the density of sandstone?) or no calc to begin with.

Doesnt matter.

Man, like a whole chunk of the map is made of SANDSTONE, or basic rock.

Wouldnt even matter, if we know what the average is, we can figure out a median via all these values.

Normal humans man....

Huh? Why would they retcon the density of sandstone? Why are you assuming a whole chunk of the planet is made of sandstone, even Armorchompy never said like that? The average is never stated either? And you know the environment comparison stated that terrestrials would just die on Zebes, I have no idea where you got normal humans, man?

Also kinda crazy you're using a goddamn Chozo as an anti-feat.

You do though? Gravity doesn't mean anything. Even an apple has gravity. And it doesnt even say it's effecting the whole area. Hell given we know what it does, the unusual patterns, probably talking about IT. As in, some fuckass object over there has its own gravity, or isnt effected by gravity as other stuff or whatever because that's what the gravity suit does. Why WOULD it effect Samus? It doesnt effect the enviroment, but itself.

We do it all the time?
Hell here's one.


Again, just because some stuff eventually got cycled out or retconned, like any verse, doesnt mean all of it has, some of it is EXPLICITLY still canon, used, and whatnot despite originating from it.

...Because Sheer Heart Attack didn't resist it?

Have you even read the guide? You know everything I've mentioned that's retconned or non-canon makes up more than 50% of the guide, right?

 

[Chariot190]

I brought up the in-game physics engine's gravity to show they don't take into consideration different planets' gravity across all Prime games in their gameplay, your last statement there literally reflects that.

No offense, but ever think maybe because they DONT have any differences to begin with?

That docking station was in the vacuum of space. Also, she literally walks through a depressurized room with no changes, just a few moments later?

First actual evidence you posted, thank you.
Except, they also show Samus jumping 100ft 5 seconds before, ie, they did something to demonstrate the gravity discrepancy. Why not do that for ANYTHING else.

..Yeah, you know in the page you sent he's hanging off the roof in the bottom right panel, right?

No? He's falling? Because it's collapsing? He was actually on a pipe, which i literally sent awhile ago?

He didn't take it, the building collapsed, because a fuckton of the infrastructure got pulped. He just fell.

...And in the panel you sent for him not tanking the bomb, they literally said it was for the rubble? How would energy shields protect you from gravity in the first place?

Dude, you realize the rubble would have been flattened if it was in range? Like the rubble that WAS in range was?

Huh? Why would they retcon the density of sandstone?

Exactly, why would they? Yet that's from the website too, that youre arguing doesnt count because PAL, all while ignoring the website is WHY Zebes has 1000g.

Zebes has been given two widths.

Width 1, from the SM guide ya keep saying doesnt count.
Width 2, from the website ya keep saying doesnt count.

You realize if we go with this, shit's ****** right? it'd be downgraded anyway because we dont have a width to even use to calc the gravity.

Why are you assuming a whole chunk of the planet is made of sandstone, even Armorchompy never said like that?

Im not assuming, the hell do you think the main component in the Ruin area made of? Ya even scan it and it says "hey yep, sand stone".

The average is never stated either?

We know what's above average, we know a dense one, we know not above average ones. By proxy, we know what the average material on Tallon DOESNT weighs. We can figure out an approximate average based on the values and info given, basic grade 3 math.

And you know the environment comparison stated that terrestrials would just die on Zebes, I have no idea where you got normal humans, man?

3 year old child who needs to be modified because she will die (for unrelated facets) and her pet aint normal?

Also kinda crazy you're using a goddamn Chozo as an anti-feat.

Nice rebuttal. im using a 800 year old chozo who can barely walk and uses a walking stick on 1g planets and cant even fend for himself or dodge stuff, as a anti-feat.

He aint no raven beak, or even gray. Yet, according to you,

this mf Class 100?

Hell not even him, what about the Eevee? Why is a animal from a 1g planet able to survive on a planet with 960g? That mf aint evolved for that? Even if he was modified like the pirates, he still lasted awhile.

...Because Sheer Heart Attack didn't resist it?

Oh? But he did, it didnt hurt him at all, took zero damage, and he even moved


But, we dont slap Grav res or adaption on him, because youd be right, he DIDNT adapt or res the actual gravity, he just stat'd through it, almost like,


Samus, who didnt res the gravity, and hell she didnt even stand up, or move, she faceplanted, and survived because of dura.

See the issue? We dont just slap grav this or that, when she didnt even DO anything.

Have you even read the guide? You know everything I've mentioned that's retconned or non-canon makes up more than 50% of the guide, right?

Have you even played Metroid? So much random shit gets retconned constantly, hell one of your very arguments was "Other M retconned SM because she dont have grav suit", in which my reply was "well nuh uh dread retconned it BACK". Or shit like the Omega Suit fixing DNA. Even shit like Samus wall jumping in ZM yet the fact she can wall jump is hard stated in F to have been learnt in Super.

Do we toss whole games out because some stuff gets fucky over time? No. We don't, what's changed gets tossed. And here we're talking about a pretty blatant conversion fuckup, somehow retconning a thing that Prime itself even uses info from? Or stuff after Prime like the ZM manga.

How about this, post 3 pieces of evidence Zebes has exceptional gravity.

 

[SamanPatou]

Without tackling all the messy arguments, I'm going to cut through what bothers me in the first place: it's a fan made calc that determines most of the ratings of the verse.

I'd get the animosity if there was a statement, an interview, something pointing out at the gravity, but there isn't.

This 960x gravity is assumed by fans because given its measures Zebes SHOULD realistically have that gravity, but half of this thread is about how unrealistic the whole setting is.

If we assume planets and the wholes verse in general don't follow the conventional rules of physics, why should we give for granted that it does with that single assumption that accomodates our thirst for high tiers?

For all we know Zebes can be just that big and massive without super gravity because fiction, because future, because yes, because whatever, especially because there is nothing supporting that claim from what I see.

Once again, I would understand finding compromises and loopholes if anything canon or even somewhat official was supporting this, but it's literally out of a fan calc.

If we are going to be that strict with realism, that we shouldn't keep the cherry picking to gravity and start doing a hundred more assumptions for the whole verse.

 

[SomebodyData]

Sorry if I repeat myself a lot, it's just you're both quoting the exact same response. I'll take it as Chariot dropping the 960x gravity in gameplay argument from his other responses.

Orpheon 100% has gravity, it was inhabited by Space Pirates whose ships literally always have gravity in them, and even had a bunch of creatures plucked off various planets that you wouldn't want to raise in 0 g for no reason.

That docking station was in the vacuum of space. Also, she literally walks through a depressurized room with no changes, just a few moments later?

Also like, yeah the games aren't fully realistic in depiction, so what? If 960x gravity was a thing it'd be an incredibly important part of the worldbuilding and they'd definitely make the games reflect it, and yet they don't. No writer on the planet randomly adds in such a massive fact in a random bit of lore that will be downright contrasted by both previous, current and future portrayal. It's not shown in the japanese games, it's not shown in the american games, it's not shown in spinoffs, it's not shown in cutscenes, it's not shown in mangas, it's not shown in promotional material, it's never even stated to be a thing, you're getting ALL of this from a fancalc.

Hey I'm not the one arguing it had to be fully realistic, I'm just pointing it wasn't realistic by the statement in the op's standards either and its a bunk point because of that.

When you tear down 80% of a building's structure, usually the roof comes crashing down. It is perfectly logical, in fact, just not the way you're interpreting it. We literally see the actual range of the bomb clearly outlined man, this isn't up for debate.

Also let's realize that you're arguing that a child can tank a 5-B gigacrusher gravity bomb capable of nearly killing one of the strongest beings in the galaxy.

Actually, a lot of the structure did survive, the roof only came down when the bomb sucked everything in.

"Yeah this random alien with zero strength feats can casually lift 10000 tons and doesn't even remark on the weight when first landing" isn't a smaller assumption than "Retro writers didn't know the implications of the planetary weight they wrote down".

"Yeah this random alien with zero strength feats can casually lift 10000 tons and doesn't even remark on the weight when first landing" isn't a smaller assumption than "Dragon Ball writers didn't know the implications of the planetary weight they wrote down".

Also, just a quick reminder, Old Bird uses a walking stick on the human colony. Like he'd literally be Superman there, unless it's a fashion choice it doesn't make much sense. (And also, Samus, again, as a 3 years old, do be walking on Zebes)

Now, you're not gonna believe this...

The Metroid sites were up until after FedForce. I'm not sure why you expect a website pertaining to Prime 1 to be updated when the sequel comes out, but unless it was pulled before Trilogy

I'm not expecting an update, unless of course, you're trying to connect to a different version of the lore. But with the site defunct and all, we're probably not gonna go further with this point so I'll drop it.

Because both Bendezium and Brinstone are described to be above average- That means that most of the rest of the planet is less heavy than them.

The issue is that it's relative to Earth, that's what they were comparing it to in the description. There's also masssssive leaps in logic here; lead is decently heavy and is common on our crust, is the density of the Earth that of lead?

She literally 100% had it because she has it in Other M, and she did zero work between it and Super Metroid so we know it came from there, as does every single other item in Other M (Except for the Seeker Missiles, which are the only one you have to obtain), there is no other conceivable way she'd have gotten it beyond complete headcanon. Also "there is no evidence" is really dumb because we always assume Samus got all needed items in every game by default, it not being visible is absence of further proof but it isn't evidence against her having it, it's like saying "oh we don't see the grapple beam so she couldn't have had it", it makes no sense because you couldn't see it even if she had it!

You ask a single person if Samus had the gravity feature in Super Metroid, they'd laugh at the idea. It is absolutely headcanon to assume otherwise.

You do have to prove it. "Warping gravity" could just mean "objects within 30 centimeters of it are 1.03% heavier than usual", there is absolutely no reason to assume it'd be something you could notice even if everything were realistically portrayed. And they've never considered the planet's gravity in gameplay because they've never given any planet unusual gravity, no writing team on earth would take a game that has normal gravity and just give it 900x gravity without it being reflected in anything in the slightest.

That's perfectly fine, even that minor difference in that assumption isn't reflected in Samus' jumps or anything, is it? Also it straight up says its affecting the Phendrana area.

I dunno about the wild west days guarantee to you that today the wiki would not grant gravity resistance to someone for surviving but being unable to move under heavy gravity. It'd be like giving a 4-A character Resistance to Explosion Manipulation for tanking a rocket launcher.

Those are obviously meant to be fun neat things, the guide isn't presenting them as canon. But Samus being obsessed with orbs is 100% canon, as far as I'm concerned.

Not resistance, but "Adapted to X gravity" would be most common. Just a quick look and I've noticed most Dragon Ball Saiyan characters and Mega man have it.

I mean 90% of it is a guide for Super Metroid, this takes up more than the Zebes lore drop. Aside from that, some of the other Zebes stuff on the page is also outdated, like the size of Zebes is different from the MP website funnily enough, just like the mass.