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Megami Tensei - The Collective, Expansive CRT

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Multiple demons can maintain the same element, but there can be stronger versions.
Still, as I see it this shows the meaning of the element can be different between versions since it's all based on slightly different interpretations/personifications of elements, so I dunno if Jack Frost can be equated to Elemental Race demons in this regard. Personally I'd only consider it acceptable if it could be proven that the concept of elements that Elementals personify include natural disasters- obviously that's just me though.
Yeah, cognitive dissonance is not an argument. Disregarded.
wym this is smt cognitive dissonance is the ultimate argument
 
Still, as I see it this shows the meaning of the element can be different between versions since it's all based on slightly different interpretations/personifications of elements, so I dunno if Jack Frost can be equated to Elemental Race demons in this regard. Personally I'd only consider it acceptable if it could be proven that the concept of elements that Elementals personify include natural disasters- obviously that's just me though.
I’ll leave this to Ultima and tag him in, because I think he can explain it better than I can.


wym this is smt cognitive dissonance is the ultimate argument
You’re right, and it sucks.
 
Agree with the thread in general, however, no diamond realm scaling, it just causes far too many issues, given it makes one giant recursive scaling chain with Stephen>Demi-fiend>Lucifer<Satan<YHVH<Nyar Phil<Stephen>Demi-Feind repeat till the end of time, and there is no proof anywhere that they used observation so just a general no to using diamond realm to anyone, bar nanashi, and gang since this is literally after everything else for them when for the rest they still haven't finished their storyline
 
I’ll leave this to Ultima and tag him in, because I think he can explain it better than I can.
I'm fine with waiting- I only brought this up cause this CRT seems to be mostly uncontroversial and if any debate on more important subjects rises I'm willing to postpone this debate until then.
 
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Agree with the thread in general, however, no diamond realm scaling, it just causes far too many issues, given it makes one giant recursive scaling chain with Stephen>Demi-fiend>Lucifer<Satan<YHVH<Nyar Phil<Stephen>Demi-Feind repeat till the end of time, and there is no proof anywhere that they used observation so just a general no to using diamond realm to anyone, bar nanashi, and gang since this is literally after everything else for them when for the rest they still haven't finished their storyline
Not true. The Messiahs being resurrected are given an Observation boost, as proven as when you are asked by Stephen to combine both his and your Observation to recreate Kazuya’s existence.


I'm fine with waiting- I only brought this up cause this seems to be mostly uncontroversial and if any debate on more important subjects rises I'm willing to postpone this debate until then.
Thanks.


wasn't making an argument, calm down.
👍
 
The Convnent is YVHV hoodwinking humans to Observe him as the top god and invincible and stuff through the whole Axiom stuff, how does this compare to Nylar and Phil?
 
The Convnent is YVHV hoodwinking humans to Observe him as the top god and invincible and stuff through the whole Axiom stuff, how does this compare to Nylar and Phil?
As said by Satan, that’s all the Covenant is - a hoodwink. The fact that you can even debase him is proof of that, bringing him down to the level of a Demon, no better than he people he debased years ago.
 
I mean he was debased with the help of a Messiah, not something everyone can pull off.
 
The Convnent is YVHV hoodwinking humans to Observe him as the top god and invincible and stuff through the whole Axiom stuff, how does this compare to Nylar and Phil?
As Milly said, his Covenant while increasing his power and making him the One True God still made him vulnerable to being debased by Humans, he simply hid his True Self in his Universe to keep his power.
 
so p2, p3, and i thnk p5 are the strongest stories in the franchise behind IV:A and Jack Bros

Is that correct?
 
P5 stands equal to that, Adam Kadmon=Stephen.

P3 merges into P4 in Arena, so, they’re pretty much equal. Rest is correct, but then again, this isn’t a scaling CRT.
Kadmon > Stephen, because he can walk

ah i see. I thought that P4 was the weakest Persona, besides 1 of course.
 
One question, what about places like YHVH's Universe (the last Dungeon of SMT: IVA)? you know, the "Brane Universe" where it is said to be infinitely bigger than any other place? the Akarana Corridor of Raidou Kuzunoha series, the Akashic Record of DeSu2 among other places?

I ask it in the case that the 1-A of the work is not admitted (which apparently many approve it and add me in that, I also agree with the 1-A) and that previously they were had as 5-D to 9/11 -D and they escale to many.

Only that, I agree with everything, it is well structured and finally an explanation of where the assumption 1-A comes from (rather than an explanation as such, the context) although not that in Strange Journey Perfect Guide's / SMT-Strange Journey-Schwarzwelt Reminiscences had of something like that or can I be wrong?

Hope we see more explanations about the abilities (like Almighty Skills, pierce, why each game the resistences varies alot for example), explanation of the physiology of demons and more.
 
One question, what about places like YHVH's Universe (the last Dungeon of SMT: IVA)? you know, the "Brane Universe" where it is said to be infinitely bigger than any other place?
1-A. Above the Atziluth.


the Akarana Corridor of Raidou Kuzunoha series
2-A, probably Low 1-C.


the Akashic Record of DeSu2 among other places?
1-A, but we stay away from it, very problematic structure.


Only that, I like everything, it is well structured and finally an explanation of where the assumption 1-A comes from (rather than an explanation as such, the context) although not that in Strange Journey Perfect Guide's / SMT-Strange Journey-Schwarzwelt Reminiscences had of something like that or can I be wrong?
Dunno what you mean here.
 
I'm not sure about 6-B, I understand the logic behind the "element of earth" equating to earthquakes but I'm not sure if I agree with it at least based on what's presented- what being the "element of earth" actually represents to humanity's collective unconscious is kinda vague and Erthys never has access by default to any moves that resemble earthquakes in any way in any game- in fact it almost always comes with buffs and magic attacks instead- wouldn't that hint at "the element of earth" being something different?

This is all based on what I see of course, my apologies if I missed something.
Yeah it's more the alchemical element of earth as opposed to the representation of Earthquakes and other phenomenon.

7-A from Pele could be something for the SMT IV cast but that infotiself has been considered iffy
 
For reference

The elements are very specifically their alchemical components, with Aeros being "a fusion of heat and moist essences, forming the basis for exponential energy increase", which... is definitely not how wind based phenomena in nature work.
 
Yeah it's more the alchemical element of earth as opposed to the representation of Earthquakes and other phenomenon.

7-A from Pele could be something for the SMT IV cast but that infotiself has been considered iffy
Actually the elementals are indeed the embodiment of all of the elemental they represent. Each demon embodies an archetype of some sort that it derives power from in the archetypal world of Kadath. The archetypes are the conceptual foundation for all matter in the lower physical world, and thus the elementals would be representations of the archetype in the physical world. The archetypes are essentially platonic in nature and exist as the informational blue print for lower worlds to manifest the concept.

Jack Frost can freeze over Britain at the very least and there is room for interpretation of him embodying winter across the world. The details indicate he is in the process of thermal absorption.

Aeroes in SMT: 3 is called the embodiment of wind, and other entries list him as mistaken as a god of wind.

So cognition has written them in as the embodiment of Earthly concepts of these phenomena and thus should scale accordingly. I'm fine with going over the best feat from the elementals and using that as a foundation, which from what I recall is Jack frost.
 
I think Jack Frost is way more reliable, considering his name is a direct reference to winter as opposed to alchemical components.

Either way it's Tier 7
 
I think Jack Frost is way more reliable, considering his name is a direct reference to winter as opposed to alchemical components.

Either way it's Tier 7
Contradictory statements, in the case of origins, are not so contradictory. The world of MT exists within an infinite amount of possibilities, and such, it can be alchemical and completely natural all at once.
 
I feel like vast statements on the nature of a universe isn't a solid piece of evidence for saying a rock with arms and legs is capable of destroying a country. The stuff referring to them being purely the natural phenomena and thus capable of doing everything associated to that is just too vague to use by my take.
 
I feel like vast statements on the nature of a universe isn't a solid piece of evidence for saying a rock with arms and legs is capable of destroying a country. The stuff referring to them being purely the natural phenomena is too vague to use by my take.
Like White said, recurrent other statements deem Aeros the god of wind.
 
I'm personally still unsure- I'd rather have a lower rating that's 100% reliable than one obtained through a fairly abstract reasoning even if it isn't necessarily incorrect.
 
I think Jack Frost is way more reliable, considering his name is a direct reference to winter as opposed to alchemical components.

Either way it's Tier 7
Yeah I think Ultima calced it in the small city range. I'm fine with using that for the low-level guys like that and early game peeps. But I also will hear what Ultima has to say about the other elementals.
 
would this mean smt chars get Cognition,demons and shadows get all of their respective powers, thus making the verse MUCH more haxxy?
 
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