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A lot of my points come from Melliane. They don't power scale though.where the arguments originally come from isnt a rebuttal
dont really care about the topic, but ive seen this line of thinking be used elsewhere
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A lot of my points come from Melliane. They don't power scale though.where the arguments originally come from isnt a rebuttal
dont really care about the topic, but ive seen this line of thinking be used elsewhere
Only problem is he can be, and is stated to be.Never said it was, what I'm saying is he can't be an Archetype of the self/Humanities infinite potential.
Clearly they are close to that level if they beat him in the first place . He can still lose, as with all archetypes of self in-verse.You quite literally misinterpret everything lol. I'm saying he can't be humanities infinite potential if he, you know, lost to people who aren't even close to that level.
That can still lose.No it's is the full potential of humanity.
Cool, I never once said it did make you enlightened. So you can go as crazy as you want. I merely said Maruki doesn’t need to be enlightened for A”K (and A”Ks feats) to apply.Ya and this makes it even more obvious that you haven't read a lick of Jung, or even attempted to. Both Buddha and Sakya are an archetype of the self. And I'm not saying that you need to be an Archetype of the self to summon "enlightened" Personas, I'm saying that It doesn't make you enlightened.
Uh huh, but Adam Kadmon is. Again, never said A”K made Maruki enlightened.Yes, but it doesn't give you enlightenment, that's what the proof above is meant to be. He is not an enlighten figure simply because he absorbed A.K. Neither is Junpei, any of the P2 cast, nor makoto before the universe arcana. All of these people are humans with flaws, thus can't be Philemons perfect human.
It’s YOUR claim that it’s purely symbolic, not mine. I don’t have to prove anything. The only evidence you have is the fact that he didn’t use it .Please show how it isn't symbolic in any way shape or form. He quite literally never uses it a single time. If Makoto got the universe arcana, never used it once, then ******* died, You wouldn't exactly say he actually scales to the universe arcana, now would you? Of course this is an exaggerated example but you get the point.
They are the collective unconscious tho, they scale to it and beyond the archetypal world. Yet they are beaten by characters using these same archetypes. I’m saying embodying something doesn’t automatically mean you cannot be beaten by that thing. YHVH is existence itself, he lost to beings in existence.Firstly they are only half. They are the "Light" and the "Dark" within every human. I quite literally don't know how people can't understand such a simple concept. And if both of them were Humanities infinite potential, then ya, I would say it's illogical for them to lose to HUMANS. But they aren't.
Completely new scaling chain is coming with the new CRT?If only they knew we were arguing this topic under the discord rn.
Only problem is he can be, and is stated to be.
andAll of this is to ascertain if man’s souls, riddled with contradictions as they are, can evolve into something whole. You all showed that potential. If there were more like you, man could someday reach a perfect state than understood its purpose” - Philemon, Innocent Sin
“Thy reflection on the water’s surface: that is thy Brahman, the truth of the universe, which is in turn thine Atman. Thou thyself art the universe, and thine self is itself the light that illuminates the soul” - Virochana, Eternal.
"I must have always been... afraid... afraid you and I wouldn't wish for the same reality..."
Hmm... I see nothing in you... It seems you no longer need your fortune told... All potentials are within you... You can go
anywhere, become anything... The universe is within you... And
you are within the universe... You and the universe are one and
the same... That is my belief... - Fortune-Teller
Clearly they are close to that level if they beat him in the first place . He can still lose, as with all archetypes of self in-verse.
That can still lose.
Cool, I never once said it did make you enlightened. So you can go as crazy as you want. I merely said Maruki doesn’t need to be enlightened for A”K (and A”Ks feats) to apply.
It’s YOUR claim that it’s purely symbolic, not mine. I don’t have to prove anything. The only evidence you have is the fact that he didn’t use it .
They are the collective unconscious tho, they scale to it and beyond the archetypal world. Yet they are beaten by characters using these same archetypes. I’m saying embodying something doesn’t automatically mean you cannot be beaten by that thing. YHVH is existence itself, he lost to beings in existence.
Philemon is identified as the "creator of all unconscious actions."
"The archetype of the self has, functionally, the significance of a ruler of the inner world, i.e., of the collective unconscious. The self, as a symbol of WHOLENESS, is a coincidentia oppositorum, and therefore contains light and darkness simultaneously" - Symbols of Transformation
YHVH is existence itself, he lost to beings in existence.
Adam Kadmon is no different, he’s enlightened, embodies human potential, but still lost because PT had greater will than even human potential. It’s paradoxical, but it’s not an anti feat for A”K. It just means PT are that OP. Let’s not forget Nanashi fought Stephen who is transcendent in the same way A”K is. I don’t hear ya calling Stephen a fraud.
Who knows.Completely new scaling chain is coming with the new CRT?
are the profiles finally gonna be goodWho knows.
My brother in Christ. You are using dialogue from MARUKI to prove Adam Kadmon isn’t enlightened. Adam Kadmons does not need Maruki to be enlightened, Adam Kadmon existed before Maruki came into existence. He is already enlightened. I am not saying Maruki is enlightened, I’m saying Adam Kadmon is. Can you find me a scan saying Adam Kadmon is not enlightened?Let us go over the proof, shall we?
Firstly the point they use to prove he is the archetype of self is quite contradictory.
Do we really have to go over this again?
and
and yet...
- “So… This is it… Rumi… I’m sorry… I couldn’t…”
- “If it’s for everyone’s happiness, I don’t care what happens to me! Don’t resist… Accept it. With my power- No… With mine and Adam Kadmon’s together, our reality is nigh!”
- “I’m sorry. I said I didn’t care what’d happen to me… But I guess… I wasn’t committed to my words…”
- “I gave up everything else… I dedicated all that I have to this… But I still… Why?”
- “It’s true that I turned my back on the original reality… But where’s the harm in that!? When it grows too much, too painful… Every person deserves to escape that!”
- “I’ve been holding this all in for so long, just hiding it from myself… So, please… Help me kill every last one of my regrets"
Which Adam Kadmon is. Not MarukiIn becoming the archetype of self, you become one with the cosmos.
Maruki ran, Adam Kadmon did not.However, he ran from his reality, unable to attain unity with the cosmos. He is a flawed human, thus, not an archetype of the self.
Because there is nothing to go against Adam Kadmon being an archetype of self. Especially when he’s called the archetype of human potential, do you see the problem with using Maruki?That is circular reasoning at its finest. You are ASSUMING he's the archetype of self.
So how does anyone losing constitute an anti-feat!? You used the point of Adam Kadmon losing to claim he isn’t an archetype of self. Yet you ADMITTED that Makoto couldn’t overpower Nyx. I’m low key about to get spooky.Point being? I know, he couldn't beat Nyx. I never said he was boundless.
If Joker isn’t a fallen Gnostic angel, it then serve reasoning to assume Sataneal wouldn’t give him the power of one. If I’m not a fire giant, it serves reasoning to assume Surt doesn’t give me the power of one.Expect the persona is one's true self, if Maruki isn't enlightened, then A.K obviously does not give him the power of an enlightened figure.
If I gave you a gun and you never used it. Did I symbolically give you the gun? If I gave you a credit card, and you never used it, does that mean I only gave it to you symbolically? That argument doesn’t hold. Like, at all. You need more proof to prove Joker getting the world arcana was symbolic than just “well, he didn’t use it.” It’s your claim that it’s symbolic, it’s on you to prove it. More proof than him not using it.Expect I did. I said he never used it once in any installments nor has he shown the ability to even us it, and if it wasn't for symbolic reason, what else could it be for? he already won. Now it's time for you to show YOUR proof that it isn't purely symbolic.
Cool? Never said he wan an archetype of self, but again, you can go as crazy as you want.No they aren't, let us go over the proof shall we?
That's a mistranslation. The original quote uses "元型" or "archetype", in the sense it's the archetypal creativity within all life. And Nyar is identified as the self destructive nature of humanity, thus being the dark said of humanity. They are very obviously a metaphor for the bull and the serpent.
They are each half's of the collective, not the entirety.
Which is evident when Philemon is identified as the old wise man archetype, not an archetype of the self. And since Phil=Nyar (In terms of power), it stands true for both.
This also ignores the fact that Nyar was able to be favored more by humanity, meaning they aren't the whole.
……Outerverse level (Stands in immense superiority over all mythological Gods and Demons in the setting of Shin Megami Tensei,having overthrown all of them in ancient times and established himself as the highest of all deities through the collective Observation of humanity, and with His own power being used to summon and control the numerous supernatural entities found throughout the series, as they are all ultimately subservient to Him and originate from His figure.There's a difference between making existence and being omnipresent, If he made all beings with all of them being sub sets(I.e the Axiom), then it would paradoxical.
No….it just means even before joker gained enlightenment he was just really strong….bro?Yet again, circular reasoning. And given the fact Joker obtained the world arcana, which you know, represents the obtainment of the infinite potential within one-self AFTER A.K, shows that he didn't surpass it.
Yeah.are the profiles finally gonna be good
Not much different. I think Adam Kadmon is fraudulent and the Universe is isn’t. And some other members think differently.I cannot FATHOM what the discord has to go through. My condolences
I just summoned a Demon in real life. We are so back. See y'all after the apocalypse starts.
Can i at least ask if Stephen will still be at the top of the verse?Who knows.
I'll pray for it to be seen one day that Adam Kadmon is a fraudNot much different. I think Adam Kadmon is fraudulent and the Universe is isn’t. And some other members think differently.
Don’t you dare disrespect my glorious king Adam Kadmon. Bro will never be a fraudI'll pray for it to be seen one day that Adam Kadmon is a fraud
Sorry matey, the agenda comes firstDon’t you dare disrespect my glorious king Adam Kadmon. Bro will never be a fraud
I'll pray for it to be seen one day that Adam Kadmon is a fraud
My brother in Christ. You are using dialogue from MARUKI to prove Adam Kadmon isn’t enlightened. Adam Kadmons does not need Maruki to be enlightened, Adam Kadmon existed before Maruki came into existence. He is already enlightened. I am not saying Maruki is enlightened, I’m saying Adam Kadmon is. Can you find me a scan saying Adam Kadmon is not enlightened?
Which Adam Kadmon is. Not Maruki
Maruki ran, Adam Kadmon did not.
Because there is nothing to go against Adam Kadmon being an archetype of self. Especially when he’s called the archetype of human potential, do you see the problem with using Maruki?
Expect the persona is one's true self, if Maruki isn't enlightened, then A.K obviously does not give him the power of an enlightened figure.
He is not an enlighten figure simply because he absorbed A.K. Neither is Junpei, any of the P2 cast, nor makoto before the universe arcana. All of these people are humans with flaws, thus can't be Philemons perfect human.
If Joker isn’t a fallen Gnostic angel, it then serve reasoning to assume Sataneal wouldn’t give him the power of one. If I’m not a fire giant, it serves reasoning to assume Surt doesn’t give me the power of one.
Cool? Never said he wan an archetype of self, but again, you can go as crazy as you want.
Outerverse level (Stands in immense superiority over all mythological Gods and Demons in the setting of Shin Megami Tensei,having overthrown all of them in ancient times and established himself as the highest of all deities through the collective Observation of humanity, and with His own power being used to summon and control the numerous supernatural entities found throughout the series, as they are all ultimately subservient to Him and originate from His figure.
No….it just means even before joker gained enlightenment he was just really strong….bro?
If I gave you a gun and you never used it. Did I symbolically give you the gun? If I gave you a credit card, and you never used it, does that mean I only gave it to you symbolically? That argument doesn’t hold. Like, at all. You need more proof to prove Joker getting the world arcana was symbolic than just “well, he didn’t use it.” It’s your claim that it’s symbolic, it’s on you to prove it. More proof than him not using it.
So how does anyone losing constitute an anti-feat!? You used the point of Adam Kadmon losing to claim he isn’t an archetype of self. Yet you ADMITTED that Makoto couldn’t overpower Nyx. I’m low key about to get spooky.
He lost to Joker lol. He will always be a fraudDon’t you dare disrespect my glorious king Adam Kadmon. Bro will never be a fraud
personas can definitely be amped by their users. However at their core personas and their powers come from demons and their archetypes. As such they have existed far before the creation of their users and have had their power before them as well. Such as Zeus in persona Q who had already existed prior to being fused. This also explains why you need to be a higher enough level to summon a persona, or else you get possessed in a process referred to as “demonization” which turns the user into a demon by becoming a physical manifestation of an archetype from the collective unconscious. The power of a persona comes from their demonic archetypes, so yes. A users power comes from their persona (as tatsuya stated) andYet again you look away from the evidence, there is a reason I said this.
and there's is a reason why I said this.
Jesus Christ, Trismegistus, and Sakya are all enlightened figures that should be archetypes of the self. But they aren't, nor did It make any of their users enlightened. Unless you want to say Junepi=Adam Kadmon, go head, do so. And you get something Majorly wrong, a Personas powers come from its user, not the other way around. After all, Shadows=Personas.
Summoning A”K doesn’t make you enlightened, however A”K is enlightened, so you get his power. The power of THE enlightened being. This is why Maruki had to take a backseat and let A”K carry him. Maruki is ass. The only prerequisite summoning a persona is to be on the same level as it. EVEN THEN Maruki probably was NOT at the same level as A”K considering how much autonomy the latter had.Expect that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying how becoming the Archetype of self requires a prerequisite, not all Personas require a perquisite and to get its powers. You are simply twisting my words. Even world arcana's within the series weren't archetypes of the self, because they haven't met the prerequisite.
Whoa, I never called Philemon an archetype of self. I just said embodying an abstractions doesn’t always mean you are immune to getting folded by characters using said abstraction.You keep on saying "Archetype of self" yet you don't even know what It means lol. What you’re describing for Philemon is the ARCHTYPE OF THE SELF (Well mostly).
YHVH made humanity, the 4 worlds, and gods/demons, he also embodies existence. Yet he can lose to beings that match all of the above in description, does that make him a fraud? Yeah, but my point still stands that he can lose to the things he embodies.Yes, but he is still a subset of humanity. I don't know shit about SMT nor do I plan to play the games any time soon.
He put paws on Kadmon. Absolutely ran his shit.There's no way, do I really have to explain something that simple to you? HE DIDN'T SURPASS IT.
We have seen the world arcana the vast number of two times. Ren and Yu, one used a persona the other did not. We do not have enough information to draw this conclusion that a persona is required.There's is a pretty minor difference between what I'm saying and what you said. One is state, while the others are a physical object. I do not become "gun".
And let us go through the proof, shall we?
For every instance we have seen the world arcana, it has required a persona to be used.
Again, not enough information to conclude a persona being necessary to use the world arcana.It's a state that one loses after using the Persona (Which is evident by how Yu isn't using Ino all the time). Okay so Joker gained the world arcana and never used it, then became the fool arcana once again in strikers. If Joker actually had access to the world arcana, It would have been useful to us against the other deities he fought, don't ya think? Even Yu has used It against the other Deities.
MegaTen humans can simply put, fight gods they have no business fighting. We shouldn’t use the point of “they lost to humanity.” Especially is the God in question isn’t tier 0. Let’s not forget PT at the time were vastly stronger then when they stole Yaldabaoth’s role of administrator. Effectively giving them the power of the masses. That’s how Sataneal was summoned in the first place, Sataneal is of the same ilk as Yaldabaoth, an administrator.Ya I'm saying A.K LOST TO HUMANS, MAKOTO LOST TO MOTHER OF BOTH THE COLLECTIVE AND THE UNCOUNCIOUSS (Even If Nyx was still sleeping). Is it really that hard to understand something so simple?
Joker was just better. Adam Kadmon is a legitimate deity. The game said he embodies human potential, so he does. Him losing to joker is just a W for PT. The will of the universe loses in SMT4A and Last bible, who is a multiversal constant/law. It doesn’t matter what you are or what you embody in MegaTen, you can still lose.And you know, A.K LOST TO HUMANS, HUMANS WHO HAVEN'T EVEN COME CLOSE TO FINDING THE ANSWER TO LIFE, HUMANS WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND THE MEANING BEHIND EVERY PERSON AND SOUL, HUMANS WHO HAVEN'T REACHED ANYWHERE NEAR THERE FULL POTENTAL. HE CAN'T BE THE INFINITE POTENTIAL OF ALL HUMANS, IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED BY THE GAME ITSELF.
And I stand by the wiki in glazing the absolute shit out of A”KNot to mention even if Maruki was what your describing, he isn't even the strongest in Persona (I'm saying you think he is, but the wiki certainty seem to think so).
fraud vs fraudKratos can beat Maruki
Adam Kadmon is no different, what he was before becoming a persona has nothing to do with Maruki. A”K came into existence first as his own being and concept. Maruki summoning him has nothing to do with him gaining enlightenment. Also not all enlightened beings are equal in power. Especially not when considering A”K, who is the embodiment of this enlightenment and not just a participant of it. So Trismegistus and Sakya are nowhere near the power of A”K. Personas = Shadows yes, however Personas also = the Demons and Gods that existed before humanity.personas can definitely be amped by their users. However at their core personas and their powers come from demons and their archetypes. As such they have existed far before the creation of their users and have had their power before them as well. Such as Zeus in persona Q who had already existed prior to being fused. This also explains why you need to be a higher enough level to summon a persona, or else you get possessed in a process referred to as “demonization” which turns the user into a demon by becoming a physical manifestation of an archetype from the collective unconscious. The power of a persona comes from their demonic archetypes, so yes. A users power comes from their persona (as tatsuya stated) and
who is the embodiment of this enlightenment and not just a participant of it.
“The moon with her antithetical nature is, in a sense, a prototype of individuation, a prefiguration of the self: she is the “mother and spouse of the sun, who carries in the wind and the air the spagyric embryo conceived by the sun in her womb and belly.” This image corresponds to the psychologem of the pregnant anima, whose child is the self, or is marked by the attributes of the hero.” - Mysterium Coniunctionis.
Personas = Shadows yes, however Personas also = the Demons and Gods that existed before humanity.
"いま目の前に広がっているのは、その中でも最も深淵なる場所だ" "What’s spreading before my eyes now is the most abyssal place among them all."
Second mistake of the translation: it said that such a realm existed before sentience or the "form" of living beings, when in reality only precedes meaning (意味) and (や) impressions/mental images (イメージ). I've also seen other translation being circulated, but it makes a similar mistake of misinterpreting "イメージ" as "shape, even as concept" or something along those lines. Naturally, there's no such thing in the description:"命が意味やイメージといった概念を手に入れるよりも以前からある領域" "A particular domain from before life could obtain notions such as meaning or impressions."
Summoning A”K doesn’t make you enlightened, however A”K is enlightened, so you get his power. The power of THE enlightened being.
Whoa, I never called Philemon an archetype of self. I just said embodying an abstractions doesn’t always mean you are immune to getting folded by characters using said abstraction.
MegaTen humans can simply put, fight gods they have no business fighting. We shouldn’t use the point of “they lost to humanity.” Especially is the God in question isn’t tier 0. Let’s not forget PT at the time were vastly stronger then when they stole Yaldabaoth’s role of administrator. Effectively giving them the power of the masses. That’s how Sataneal was summoned in the first place, Sataneal is of the same ilk as Yaldabaoth, an administrator.
Joker was just better. Adam Kadmon is a legitimate deity. The game said he embodies human potential, so he does. Him losing to joker is just a W for PT. The will of the universe loses in SMT4A and Last bible, who is a multiversal constant/law. It doesn’t matter what you are or what you embody in MegaTen, you can still lose.
And I stand by the wiki in glazing the absolute shit out of A”K
We have seen the world arcana the vast number of two times. Ren and Yu, one used a persona the other did not. We do not have enough information to draw this conclusion that a persona is required.
Again, not enough information to conclude a persona being necessary to use the world arcana.
New flash: the mythological descriptions of demons are facts.the presence of Erebus makes me doubt that. And It's funny how you proved that A.K isn't the actual A.K, just a manifestation. And as for him being humanities goal to strive for, I've already debunked that 1 million times. It's is just expressing his mythology, unless you want to believe Izanami created all humans, is the mother of all eldritch things, and death do so. But we know A.k being the goal for one to strive for and Izanami creating all humans and death are just false, It's is expressing's it mythology, it isn't something factual.
SourceThe intelligent life that exists in the Schwarzwelt are demons from the legends and myths transmitted among humanity and a cause and effect situation: the strong negative feelings of humans turned into demons.
New flash: the mythological descriptions of demons are facts.
Source
Literally in P2 tatsuya attributes his mastery over the sword and his resistance to terror (madness induced by Byakhee) to his Persona
News flash: the mythological descriptions of demons are facts.
It honestly makes more sense for them to be the collectives interpretation of these deities, rather than the actual deities (there is a difference)I think Kadmon is a wanked mess of a character, but it’s already accepted these are the mythological characters, in reference to the actual verse. So your assertion of it not being the actual Adam Kadmon would require a downgrade thread to assert Personas =/= Mythological Gods.
I think the entire series would suggest otherwise.It honestly makes more sense for them to be the collectives interpretation of these deities, rather than the actual deities (there is a difference)
Anyways, happy downgrading, been looking for a good thread for a while now.I'm already making a post but It's taking a long time. Even if A.K was the actual archetype within Kadath, he still wouldn't be "humanities potential" like some claim.
One of the core themes of the series is that there is truly no distinction between the two.It honestly makes more sense for them to be the collectives interpretation of these deities, rather than the actual deities (there is a difference)
They are, indeed, facts.Expect they aren't, Izanami did not create death nor did she create life. They are Myths after all, not facts.
Daaamn, I hope you don't mind sending all these contradictions.would realize half of these mythologies and religions would directly go against everything stated in Persona and SMT, with the most obvious one being Izanami.
I don't see how this goes against my point. Those archetypes are also described as mythological, fyi.Yes, because Archetypes/Symbols are imbued on Personas to represent one's self, there's is reason why it's is called your "true feelings".
A persona's powers comes from its archetypes/the real deal. Personas are most definitely not the real deal.
Daaamn, I hope you don't mind sending all these contradictions.
I don't see how this goes against my point. Those archetypes are also described as mythological, fyi.
Ya I think you're right.Honestly, at this point, you might as well just focus on making the thread, instead of wasting your time arguing here. I think nearly everyone who is active on the thread disagrees with the basis of your argument (if not the argument against AK scaling itself), so you're just writing yourself into oblivion with each subsequent post.
That’s it, I’m making a Tier 0 Kadmon CRTI think Kadmon is a wanked mess of a character.
Also didn’t you just say you never played SMT? Not to commit an ATA fallacy but I’d like to see cases where this is contradictedExpect they aren't, Izanami did not create death nor did she create life. They are Myths after all, not facts. If you think about It for more than 10 seconds, you would realize half of these mythologies and religions would directly go against everything stated in Persona and SMT, with the most obvious one being Izanami.
Repulsive.That’s it, I’m making a Tier 0 Kadmon CRT