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A lot of my points come from Melliane. They don't power scale though.
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Megami Tensei General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Lukewoesal007
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Only problem is he can be, and is stated to be.
Clearly they are close to that level if they beat him in the first place
. He can still lose, as with all archetypes of self in-verse.That can still lose.
Cool, I never once said it did make you enlightened. So you can go as crazy as you want. I merely said Maruki doesn’t need to be enlightened for A”K (and A”Ks feats) to apply.
Uh huh, but Adam Kadmon is. Again, never said A”K made Maruki enlightened.
It’s YOUR claim that it’s purely symbolic, not mine. I don’t have to prove anything. The only evidence you have is the fact that he didn’t use it
.They are the collective unconscious tho, they scale to it and beyond the archetypal world. Yet they are beaten by characters using these same archetypes. I’m saying embodying something doesn’t automatically mean you cannot be beaten by that thing. YHVH is existence itself, he lost to beings in existence.
Adam Kadmon is no different, he’s enlightened, embodies human potential, but still lost because PT had greater will than even human potential. It’s paradoxical, but it’s not an anti feat for A”K. It just means PT are that OP. Let’s not forget Nanashi fought Stephen who is transcendent in the same way A”K is. I don’t hear ya calling Stephen a fraud.
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Completely new scaling chain is coming with the new CRT?
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Let us go over the proof, shall we?
Firstly the point they use to prove he is the archetype of self is quite contradictory.
Do we really have to go over this again?
and
and yet...
- “So… This is it… Rumi… I’m sorry… I couldn’t…”
- “If it’s for everyone’s happiness, I don’t care what happens to me! Don’t resist… Accept it. With my power- No… With mine and Adam Kadmon’s together, our reality is nigh!”
- “I’m sorry. I said I didn’t care what’d happen to me… But I guess… I wasn’t committed to my words…”
- “I gave up everything else… I dedicated all that I have to this… But I still… Why?”
- “It’s true that I turned my back on the original reality… But where’s the harm in that!? When it grows too much, too painful… Every person deserves to escape that!”
- “I’ve been holding this all in for so long, just hiding it from myself… So, please… Help me kill every last one of my regrets"
In becoming the archetype of self, you become one with the cosmos.
However, he ran from his reality, unable to attain unity with the cosmos. He is a flawed human, thus, not an archetype of the self.
Clearly they are close to that level if they beat him in the first place
That is circular reasoning at its finest. You are ASSUMING he's the archetype of self.
Point being? I know, he couldn't beat Nyx. I never said he was boundless.
Expect the persona is one's true self, if Maruki isn't enlightened, then A.K obviously does not give him the power of an enlightened figure.
It’s YOUR claim that it’s purely symbolic, not mine. I don’t have to prove anything. The only evidence you have is the fact that he didn’t use it
Expect I did. I said he never used it once in any installments nor has he shown the ability to even us it, and if it wasn't for symbolic reason, what else could it be for? he already won. Now it's time for you to show YOUR proof that it isn't purely symbolic.
No they aren't, let us go over the proof shall we?
That's a mistranslation. The original quote uses "元型" or "archetype", in the sense it's the archetypal creativity within all life. And Nyar is identified as the self destructive nature of humanity, thus being the dark said of humanity. They are very obviously a metaphor for the bull and the serpent.
They are each half's of the collective, not the entirety.
Which is evident when Philemon is identified as the old wise man archetype, not an archetype of the self. And since Phil=Nyar (In terms of power), it stands true for both.
This also ignores the fact that Nyar was able to be favored more by humanity, meaning they aren't the whole.
There's a difference between making existence and being omnipresent, If he made all beings with all of them being sub sets(I.e the Axiom), then it would paradoxical.
Yet again, circular reasoning. And given the fact Joker obtained the world arcana, which you know, represents the obtainment of the infinite potential within one-self AFTER A.K, shows that he didn't surpass it.
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Who knows.
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I just summoned a Demon in real life. We are so back. See y'all after the apocalypse starts.
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are the profiles finally gonna be good
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My brother in Christ. You are using dialogue from MARUKI to prove Adam Kadmon isn’t enlightened. Adam Kadmons does not need Maruki to be enlightened, Adam Kadmon existed before Maruki came into existence. He is already enlightened. I am not saying Maruki is enlightened, I’m saying Adam Kadmon is. Can you find me a scan saying Adam Kadmon is not enlightened?
Which Adam Kadmon is. Not Maruki
Maruki ran, Adam Kadmon did not.
Because there is nothing to go against Adam Kadmon being an archetype of self. Especially when he’s called the archetype of human potential, do you see the problem with using Maruki?
So how does anyone losing constitute an anti-feat!? You used the point of Adam Kadmon losing to claim he isn’t an archetype of self. Yet you ADMITTED that Makoto couldn’t overpower Nyx. I’m low key about to get spooky.
If Joker isn’t a fallen Gnostic angel, it then serve reasoning to assume Sataneal wouldn’t give him the power of one. If I’m not a fire giant, it serves reasoning to assume Surt doesn’t give me the power of one.
Do you see how inherently flawed and contradictory that statement is? Stop comparing feats for A”K and Maruki. Adam Kadmon existed before Maruki as an archetypal being. Maruki accepted that archetype into his shadow and gained its power. It does not matter how ass the human was before getting a persona. That’s like saying in order to get a death god, you have to die. Or saying in order to get a god of fire you have to previously been a fire bender, was Yosuke a ninja before he got Jiraiya?
If I gave you a gun and you never used it. Did I symbolically give you the gun? If I gave you a credit card, and you never used it, does that mean I only gave it to you symbolically? That argument doesn’t hold. Like, at all. You need more proof to prove Joker getting the world arcana was symbolic than just “well, he didn’t use it.” It’s your claim that it’s symbolic, it’s on you to prove it. More proof than him not using it.
Cool? Never said he wan an archetype of self, but again, you can go as crazy as you want.
……Outerverse level (Stands in immense superiority over all mythological Gods and Demons in the setting of Shin Megami Tensei,having overthrown all of them in ancient times and established himself as the highest of all deities through the collective Observation of humanity, and with His own power being used to summon and control the numerous supernatural entities found throughout the series, as they are all ultimately subservient to Him and originate from His figure.
No….it just means even before joker gained enlightenment he was just really strong….bro?
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I cannot FATHOM what the discord has to go through. My condolences
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Yeah.
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Not much different. I think Adam Kadmon is fraudulent and the Universe is isn’t. And some other members think differently.
Tomfer
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Can i at least ask if Stephen will still be at the top of the verse?
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Who knows.
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I'll pray for it to be seen one day that Adam Kadmon is a fraud
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Don’t you dare disrespect my glorious king Adam Kadmon. Bro will never be a fraud
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Sorry matey, the agenda comes first
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Yet again you look away from the evidence, there is a reason I said this.
and there's is a reason why I said this.
Jesus Christ, Trismegistus, and Sakya are all enlightened figures that should be archetypes of the self. But they aren't, nor did It make any of their users enlightened. Unless you want to say Junepi=Adam Kadmon, go head, do so. And you get something Majorly wrong, a Personas powers come from its user, not the other way around. After all, Shadows=Personas.
Expect that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying how becoming the Archetype of self requires a prerequisite, not all Personas require a perquisite and to get its powers. You are simply twisting my words. Even world arcana's within the series weren't archetypes of the self, because they haven't met the prerequisite.
You keep on saying "Archetype of self" yet you don't even know what It means lol. What your describing for Philemon is the ARCHTYPE OF THE SELF (Well mostly).
Yes, but he is still a subset of humanity. I don't know shit about SMT nor do I plan to play the games any time soon.
There's no way, do I really have to explain something that simple to you? HE DIDN'T SURPASS IT.
If I gave you a gun and you never used it. Did I symbolically give you the gun? If I gave you a credit card, and you never used it, does that mean I only gave it to you symbolically? That argument doesn’t hold. Like, at all. You need more proof to prove Joker getting the world arcana was symbolic than just “well, he didn’t use it.” It’s your claim that it’s symbolic, it’s on you to prove it. More proof than him not using it.
There's is a pretty minor difference between what I'm saying and what you said. One is state, while the others are a physical object. I do not become "gun".
And let us go through the proof, shall we?
For every instance we have seen the world arcana, it has required a persona to be used. It's a state that one loses after using the Persona (Which is evident by how Yu isn't using Ino all the time). Okay so Joker gained the world arcana and never used it, then became the fool arcana once again in strikers. If Joker actually had access to the world arcana, It would have been useful to us against the other deities he fought, don't ya think? Even Yu has used It against the other Deities.
Ya I'm saying A.K LOST TO HUMANS, MAKOTO LOST TO MOTHER OF BOTH THE COLLECTIVE AND THE UNCOUNCIOUSS (Even If Nyx was still sleeping). Is it really that hard to understand something so simple?
And you know, A.K LOST TO HUMANS, HUMANS WHO HAVEN'T EVEN COME CLOSE TO FINDING THE ANSWER TO LIFE, HUMANS WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND THE MEANING BEHIND EVERY PERSON AND SOUL, HUMANS WHO HAVEN'T REACHED ANYWHERE NEAR THERE FULL POTENTAL. HE CAN'T BE THE INFINITE POTENTIAL OF ALL HUMANS, IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED BY THE GAME ITSELF. Not to mention even if Maruki was what your describing, he isn't even close to the true strongest in Persona (I'm not saying you think he is, but the wiki certainty seem to think so).
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He lost to Joker lol. He will always be a fraud
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Kratos can beat Maruki
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personas can definitely be amped by their users. However at their core personas and their powers come from demons and their archetypes. As such they have existed far before the creation of their users and have had their power before them as well. Such as Zeus in persona Q who had already existed prior to being fused. This also explains why you need to be a higher enough level to summon a persona, or else you get possessed in a process referred to as “demonization” which turns the user into a demon by becoming a physical manifestation of an archetype from the collective unconscious. The power of a persona comes from their demonic archetypes, so yes. A users power comes from their persona (as tatsuya stated) and
Adam Kadmon is no different, what he was before becoming a persona has nothing to do with Maruki. A”K came into existence first as his own being and concept. Maruki summoning him has nothing to do with him gaining enlightenment. Also not all enlightened beings are equal in power. Especially not when considering A”K, who is the embodiment of this enlightenment and not just a participant of it. So Trismegistus and Sakya are nowhere near the power of A”K.
Personas = Shadows yes, however Personas also = the Demons and Gods that existed before humanity.
Summoning A”K doesn’t make you enlightened, however A”K is enlightened, so you get his power. The power of THE enlightened being. This is why Maruki had to take a backseat and let A”K carry him. Maruki is ass. The only prerequisite summoning a persona is to be on the same level as it. EVEN THEN Maruki probably was NOT at the same level as A”K considering how much autonomy the latter had.
Whoa, I never called Philemon an archetype of self. I just said embodying an abstractions doesn’t always mean you are immune to getting folded by characters using said abstraction.
YHVH made humanity, the 4 worlds, and gods/demons, he also embodies existence. Yet he can lose to beings that match all of the above in description, does that make him a fraud? Yeah, but my point still stands that he can lose to the things he embodies.
He put paws on Kadmon. Absolutely ran his shit.
We have seen the world arcana the vast number of two times. Ren and Yu, one used a persona the other did not. We do not have enough information to draw this conclusion that a persona is required.
Again, not enough information to conclude a persona being necessary to use the world arcana.
MegaTen humans can simply put, fight gods they have no business fighting. We shouldn’t use the point of “they lost to humanity.” Especially is the God in question isn’t tier 0. Let’s not forget PT at the time were vastly stronger then when they stole Yaldabaoth’s role of administrator. Effectively giving them the power of the masses. That’s how Sataneal was summoned in the first place, Sataneal is of the same ilk as Yaldabaoth, an administrator.
Joker was just better. Adam Kadmon is a legitimate deity. The game said he embodies human potential, so he does. Him losing to joker is just a W for PT. The will of the universe loses in SMT4A and Last bible, who is a multiversal constant/law. It doesn’t matter what you are or what you embody in MegaTen, you can still lose.
And I stand by the wiki in glazing the absolute shit out of A”K
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fraud vs fraud
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Adam Kadmon is no different, what he was before becoming a persona has nothing to do with Maruki. A”K came into existence first as his own being and concept. Maruki summoning him has nothing to do with him gaining enlightenment. Also not all enlightened beings are equal in power. Especially not when considering A”K, who is the embodiment of this enlightenment and not just a participant of it. So Trismegistus and Sakya are nowhere near the power of A”K. Personas = Shadows yes, however Personas also = the Demons and Gods that existed before humanity.
Yet again you misconstrued what I'm saying, If Maruki isn't enlightened, A.K will not be an enlightened power, thus will not give him the power of an enlighten figure. Which is already proven by Trismegistus, Messiah, and Sakya. And this proven in your post, they aren't the actual thing.
Which does not matter at all for entities who are considered archetypes of the self (Which at this point is extremely obvious you don't know what it is). Even the moon is an archetype of the self.
Expect they were created by humanity...
"Memory occasionally brings about much distress and suffering, but it is absolutely necessary to distinguish oneself from others and manufacture one’s own psyche. Ever since it began, life’s memory has accumulated unbroken, passing through individual experiences and spanning several generations. And so it has given shape to Kadath and the Collective Unconsciousness, thereby becoming a foundation for the next generation." - Nodens, Tatsuya's Scenario.
and this is something that is even true in Carl Jung.
"These archetypes, whose innermost nature is inaccessible to experience, are the precipitate of the psychic functioning of the whole ancestral line; the accumulated experiences of organic life in general, a million times repeated, and condensed into types. In these archetypes, therefore, all experiences are represented which have happened on this planet since primeval times" - Psychological Types.
Which is something even noted in the Club book.
"To make it simple, this is what gave birth to mythology and religion. Certainly, you know many stories of malevolent deities or demons being defeated by benevolent deities of virtues, which protect our world? These existences we call “gods” protect the balance in the suppressed, unconscious parts of our psyche. Their providence plays an important role in strengthening the seal against Nyx." -Fake Jesus, Club book.
And as for why People say that these mythologies and the CU predate Nyx crashing into earth, It's just a translation error, through and through.
First error of the English localization was to say that the Great Seal's realm is in one of the furthest depths of the Sea.
In reality, the Great Seal is located in the deepest and oldest realm of the collective unconscious. And what does characterize such a realm?
Second mistake of the translation: it said that such a realm existed before sentience or the "form" of living beings, when in reality only precedes meaning (意味) and (や) impressions/mental images (イメージ). I've also seen other translation being circulated, but it makes a similar mistake of misinterpreting "イメージ" as "shape, even as concept" or something along those lines. Naturally, there's no such thing in the description:
- "命が" - indicates that life (命) is the subject (が)
- "意味やイメージ" - I already explained it
- "といった概念を" - means that the previous ("といった" means "such as") concepts or notions (概念) are the object (を).
- "手に入れる" is the potential version of "to obtain" (can obtain).
- "よりも" tries to communicate a bigger distance or quantity in the following adjective. I didn't translate it, since it wasn't needed, but it'd mean something like "more/even".
- "以前から" is "from (から) before (以前)"
- "ある領域" is a "particular/certain (ある) domain/area (領域)"
At most, such realm could precede the existence of archetypes, but the presence of Erebus makes me doubt that. And It's funny how you proved that A.K isn't the actual A.K, just a manifestation. And as for him being humanities goal to strive for, I've already debunked that 1 million times. It's is just expressing his mythology, unless you want to believe Izanami created all humans, is the mother of all eldritch things, and death do so. But we know A.k being the goal for one to strive for and Izanami creating all humans and death are just false, It's is expressing's it mythology, it isn't something factual.
First off a Persona does not Make you an enlightened figure if you aren't already enlightened. Which is already proven by Trismegistus, Messiah, and Sakya (And there's likely more but I'm not going to look for them).
Expect what you said for Philemon is almost 1 to 1 for the archetype of the self, which is already stated he isn't that.
The reason Humans can face gods (At least in Persona) is because they created them, do you even know why Joker won against Yaldy? Also WTF is going in SMT, if the Axiom is truly just the CU, and its avatar created Humanity... You know what, what is the point in trying to understand at this point.
expect what you said earlier contradicts that, as for the universe losing, that is because humans have almost complete control over reality. There's is a reason why Nyx was considered unbeatable by everyone while the others were not. He's a true constant not bound by humanity. He's is an Alien after all, or "Something completely foreign to humanity" in other words.
The wiki is just straight up wrong. They say he's the strongest in Persona and second to only the axiom, when we have seen someone exactly like this fake Maruki (Makoto), who couldn't beat Nyx while she was sleeping, let alone given the fact A.K would just straight up not work on Nyx.
Expect Ren never used the world arcana, brining credence to what I once said before.
Ren still lost access to the world arcana lol. He became the fool.
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New flash: the mythological descriptions of demons are facts.
Source
Literally in P2 tatsuya attributes his mastery over the sword and his resistance to terror (madness induced by Byakhee) to his Persona
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New flash: the mythological descriptions of demons are facts.
Source
Literally in P2 tatsuya attributes his mastery over the sword and his resistance to terror (madness induced by Byakhee) to his Persona
Expect they aren't, Izanami did not create death nor did she create life. They are Myths after all, not facts. If you think about It for more than 10 seconds, you would realize half of these mythologies and religions would directly go against everything stated in Persona and SMT, with the most obvious one being Izanami.
Yes, because Archetypes/Symbols are imbued on Personas to represent one's self, there's is reason why it's is called your "true feelings".
A persona's powers comes from its archetypes/the real deal. Personas are most definitely not the real deal.
The reason Maruki is A.K is because he wanted to guide humanity, not because he is actually enlightened.
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I think Kadmon is a wanked mess of a character, but it’s already accepted these are the mythological characters, in reference to the actual verse. So your assertion of it not being the actual Adam Kadmon would require a downgrade thread to assert Personas =/= Mythological Gods.
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I'm already making a post but It's taking a long time. Even if A.K was the actual archetype within Kadath, he still wouldn't be "humanities potential" like some claim.
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It honestly makes more sense for them to be the collectives interpretation of these deities, rather than the actual deities (there is a difference)
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I think the entire series would suggest otherwise.
Anyways, happy downgrading, been looking for a good thread for a while now.
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One of the core themes of the series is that there is truly no distinction between the two.
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They are, indeed, facts.
Through the power of observation, humans have the power to assign an answer to phenomena without an answer, to change the answer they have found into faith, and eventually into truth.
Daaamn, I hope you don't mind sending all these contradictions.
I don't see how this goes against my point. Those archetypes are also described as mythological, fyi.
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God (Yahweh/Allah), Brahma, Prajapati, Ahura Mazda, Pangu, Atum, The Great Spirit, Izanagi and Izanami, Io, Ananke. All of these gods are said to have made the universe/are apart of making the universe. Yet we know in Persona that they were made by humans, humans who don't predate the universe. Meaning they couldn't have made the universe, It's is illogical. Basically every Religion with a creator of the universe.
They come from its archetype but they aren't 1=1 with there archetype
To explain it simply, personas acquire a section/segment of their powers, with the individual being/human able to hone such skills to the point they may able to overcome the archetype itself in terms of raw power, as seen in Tatsuya's Scenario. So they obviously aren't 1=1
Expect that's is contradicted in Persona. We know Izanami did not create death nor did she create life, Nyx did (Or the Axiom in SMT).
And there's something that you don't understand.
A google result will show that only 15.7 million or 0.2% of the worlds current population believes in Judaism, with Christianity being the dominant religion with 31.1% of the world believing Christianity is the true religion. Meaning that A.K isn't what people have most of their "Faith" in.
Of course what I wrote above me is a Joke, but the meaning stays the same.
Not everything is "fact", because humanity doesn't have their "faith" in everything.
And humanity has shown an obvious limit on what they can make "fact", because you know, Nyx exists.
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Honestly, at this point, you might as well just focus on making the thread, instead of wasting your time arguing here. I think nearly everyone who is active on the thread disagrees with the basis of your argument (if not the argument against AK scaling itself), so you're just writing yourself into oblivion with each subsequent post.
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Ya I think you're right.
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That’s it, I’m making a Tier 0 Kadmon CRT
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Also didn’t you just say you never played SMT? Not to commit an ATA fallacy but I’d like to see cases where this is contradicted
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Repulsive.
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